Random Thoughts following 2 back 2 back blowouts

[Hoovtrain]

Please. CAN IT be a starter wiht his numbers? Sure. 14.5pts 3.1reb 4.9ast in just a shade over 30 min? Sure.

But those are not numbers that DEMAND he be a starter (and they have sunk after his fast start). He is a good player. And notably he's being played in a system built better for his performance than that of the better players on hsi team. But its like the Beno situation. He's a good player, but not a star. Hence his role is determined by whatever works best for the team. It doesn't take a genius to see that a high energy 5'9" (maybe) PG with shoot first tendencies is a CLASSIC change of pace guard off the bench, and not so classic as a high level team in contention sort of starter. Jerry likes to babble on about how great Spud was, but I'll tell you how great Spud was: he won less than 40% of his games as a starting PG, got us to 1 playofff series, where we won 1 game. Tyus Edney was not the answer either. And the odds are let's jsut say pretty damn good that neither will IT be. Even being good enough to be considered as a potential 6th man is a considerable accomplishment in itself, but he has all the markers and you don't typically care as much about a 6th man's D.

Let's just say my "lame argument" is roughly as "lame" as decades of NBA history can make it.

Spud wasn't the PG, or on the team, when they went to the playoffs, Edney was.

 

[The_Jamal]

Please. CAN IT be a starter wiht his numbers? Sure. 14.5pts 3.1reb 4.9ast in just a shade over 30 min? Sure.

But those are not numbers that DEMAND he be a starter (and they have sunk after his fast start). He is a good player. And notably he's being played in a system built better for his performance than that of the better players on hsi team. But its like the Beno situation. He's a good player, but not a star. Hence his role is determined by whatever works best for the team. It doesn't take a genius to see that a high energy 5'9" (maybe) PG with shoot first tendencies is a CLASSIC change of pace guard off the bench, and not so classic as a high level team in contention sort of starter. Jerry likes to babble on about how great Spud was, but I'll tell you how great Spud was: he won less than 40% of his games as a starting PG, got us to 1 playofff series, where we won 1 game. Tyus Edney was not the answer either. And the odds are let's jsut say pretty damn good that neither will IT be. Even being good enough to be considered as a potential 6th man is a considerable accomplishment in itself, but he has all the markers and you don't typically care as much about a 6th man's D.

Let's just say my "lame argument" is roughly as "lame" as decades of NBA history can make it.

How the hell can you determine that off 15 games as a starter than he can't be more than just a role player? You also fail to bring up his fantastic shooting percentages including 39% from 3 and a 57% TS. If he hasn't earned a starting gig then neither has Tyreke Evans the past 2 years

 

[Bricklayer]

Spud wasn't the PG when they went to the playoffs, Edney was.

I stand corrected. That would be right though -- Corliss was on that team, and he and Tyus were drafted together.

In my defense though I must say I was already all the way across the country, this was pre-League Pass, dawn of intenet times, my brother would send me VHS tapes of selected games to watch, and I got 1 national TV game a year. Until those playoffs. Unfortunately during those playoffs I remember being distracted and then some by a curvaceous brunette.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I stand corrected. That would be right though -- Corliss was on that team, and he and Tyus were drafted together.

In my defense thouhg I must say I was already all the way across the country, this was pre-League Pass, dawn of intenet times, my brother would send me VHS tapes of selected games to watch, and 1 got 1 national TV game a year. Until those playoffs. Unfortunately during those playoffs I remember being distracted and then some by a curvaceous brunette.

Quite understandable.

 

[rainmaker]

How the hell can you determine that off 15 games as a starter than he can't be more than just a role player? You also fail to bring up his fantastic shooting percentages including 39% from 3 and a 57% TS. If he hasn't earned a starting gig then neither has Tyreke Evans the past 2 years

Now that's just ridiculous.

You're stacking IT's 15 game stretch as a starter up against a guy who put up 20/5/5 over the course of his first season, and 17/5/5 over the course of his second season while battling plantar fasciitis? Do you even have enough statistical knowledge to know how few players put up 17/5/5 last year, or 20/5/5 the year before?

You simply can't compare the two situations.

 

[Heuge]

Easy there.. look for the 2nd straight game the ball movement has been the best I've seen it all year and last. Today I watched so many extra passes happening for wide open shots It must have been a record.

Now im not gonna base the last 2 games on evans alone. But.... on some of those passes where the ball needed to be moved just one more for a wide open look I think evans would have just put his head down and drove it to the basket instead of keeping the movement alive.

Seriously, you discredit yourself.

 

[The_Jamal]

Now that's just ridiculous.

You're stacking IT's 15 game stretch as a starter up against a guy who put up 20/5/5 over the course of his first season, and 17/5/5 over the course of his second season while battling plantar fasciitis? Do you even have enough statistical knowledge to know how few players put up 17/5/5 last year, or 20/5/5 the year before?

You simply can't compare the two situations.

Sure I can. Reke's shooting numbers have been a product of the amount of looks he gets a game. .428% FG shooting .218% 3pt shooting flat out sucks. His strong FT shooting has kept his TS% out of the dumpster at .497%, but it's still quite weak. Now Reke provides far better defense, and better rebounding, but your flat out being a Reke homer if you're going to tell me that he's been better offensively than IT's 15 game stretch as a starter.

 

[rainmaker]

Sure I can. Reke's shooting numbers have been a product of the amount of looks he gets a game. .428% FG shooting .218% 3pt shooting flat out sucks. His strong FT shooting has kept his TS% out of the dumpster at .497%, but it's still quite weak. Now Reke provides far better defense, and better rebounding, but your flat out being a Reke homer if you're going to tell me that he's been better offensively than IT's 15 game stretch as a starter.

15 NBA games does not equate to 172 NBA games. Sorry. One is a blip on the radar, the other is 2.5 proven seasons. Also pretty ridiculous to bring up stats from a 15 game stretch where IT is playing under one coach, in his natural position, while including Reke's games under two coaches, two systems, and being switched around in different roles, while also acting like his first two years have nothing to do with him earning a starting spot, which was your original point I was responding to. Yeah, as I said you can't compare.

 

[bluntsnbball]

Now that's just ridiculous.

You're stacking IT's 15 game stretch as a starter up against a guy who put up 20/5/5 over the course of his first season, and 17/5/5 over the course of his second season while battling plantar fasciitis? Do you even have enough statistical knowledge to know how few players put up 17/5/5 last year, or 20/5/5 the year before?

You simply can't compare the two situations.

again, im not trying to diss or discredit what reke brings to this team, but while he did put up those numbers, he did it on one of the worst teams in the league and his numbers didnt translate to wins by any means. i aint one of the anti reke folks on here, but i just thought that was important to note. sometimes numbers dont tell the whole story. while reke put up better individual numbers, you could argue that IT is equally if not more valuable to the team at this point based solely on the fact that he is a pure point guard who brings intensity to a team that drastically lacks in that category. In no way do i believe that IT is the better player, but right now he is proving that he is an important piece to the team. just my 2 cents...

 

[Bricklayer]

Sure I can. Reke's shooting numbers have been a product of the amount of looks he gets a game. .428% FG shooting .218% 3pt shooting flat out sucks. His strong FT shooting has kept his TS% out of the dumpster at .497%, but it's still quite weak. Now Reke provides far better defense, and better rebounding, but your flat out being a Reke homer if you're going to tell me that he's been better offensively than IT's 15 game stretch as a starter.

Heh, wow. That sounds...do you want to delete that? Or have you just fallen into the advanced stats cult?

True shooting percentages are fun! Especialy since they require no actual knowledge of the basketball game being played to use! Some fun examples from some of the better teams in the league:

Luol Deng TS% .501
Kyle Korver TS% .608
Result: Start Korver!

Russel Westbrook TS% .548
Thabo Sefalosha TS% .611
Result: Feed Thabo!

Dwayne Wade TS% .567
Mario Chalemers TS% .628
Result: Unleash Chalmers!

Kobe Bryant TS% .529
Matt Barnes TS% .553
Result: Pass that torch baby!

TS% aka I Chuck A Lot of Threes % is one of the more abused stats out there. Unless of course it doesn't bother you that:

Michael Jordan career TS% .569
Kevin Martin career TS% .595


They are not playing the same game. One guy has defense built entirely with stopping him in mind. The other guy is an afterthought. Reverse the defensive focus then see what happens.

 

[Bricklayer]

again, im not trying to diss or discredit what reke brings to this team, but while he did put up those numbers, he did it on one of the worst teams in the league and his numbers didnt translate to wins by any means. i aint one of the anti reke folks on here, but i just thought that was important to note. sometimes numbers dont tell the whole story. while reke put up better individual numbers, you could argue that IT is equally if not more valuable to the team at this point based solely on the fact that he is a pure point guard who brings intensity to a team that drastically lacks in that category. In no way do i believe that IT is the better player, but right now he is proving that he is an important piece to the team. just my 2 cents...

We won 8 more games than we had the year before with the second best player on the squad being Beno Udrih. That's isn't nothing.

 

[The_Jamal]

15 NBA games does not equate to 172 NBA games. Sorry. One is a blip on the radar, the other is 2.5 proven seasons. Also pretty ridiculous to bring up stats from a 15 game stretch where IT is playing under one coach, in his natural position, while including Reke's games under two coaches, two systems, and being switched around in different roles, while also acting like his first two years have nothing to do with him earning a starting spot, which was your original point I was responding to. Yeah, as I said you can't compare.

2.5 proven seasons of what? He had 1 strong individual season and 1.5 seasons of being an inefficient scorer offensively. The Jump-shot still isn't there after 2.5 seasons. He's shown signs of being an elite defender, but has yet to prove he can do so on a consistent basis over that span. And, he has yet to show he can lead to the Kings gaining more wins since he's been here (not entirely all his fault of course, but he plays a huge part in how this good this franchise is)

He's not the only guy who's had to deal with extreme turmoil with this team either so that's not a valid excuse in my book. Cousins constantly got f-ed over by Westphal and has had to carry the "headcase" label with him by the national media. JT would probably be stuck at the end of the bench had Hayes not gotten hurt at the beginning of the year. Isaiah and Jimmer have had to deal with virtually no offseason and a coaching change 7 games into their rookie season.

 

[kingsnation]

Sure I can. Reke's shooting numbers have been a product of the amount of looks he gets a game. .428% FG shooting .218% 3pt shooting flat out sucks. His strong FT shooting has kept his TS% out of the dumpster at .497%, but it's still quite weak. Now Reke provides far better defense, and better rebounding, but your flat out being a Reke homer if you're going to tell me that he's been better offensively than IT's 15 game stretch as a starter.

Your last line made my jaw drop and I'm not joking. I'm certainly glad that sports franchises don't place as much high value on 15-game stretches as you do. You should research how many guys put up 20/5/5 in a rookie season.... yeah IT's definitely making history. And I guess I'm a "Reke homer" now?

BTW, I freaking love IT (hint. avatar.) But c'mon man.

 

[VF21]

I have a random thought or two...

Some Kings fans around here would find something to criticize about the Larry O'Brien trophy should it ever find its way to Sacramento.

I simply do not understand the need/desire of some to continually address Tyreke Evans as though he is nothing more than a fluke, someone who apparently bluffed his way into the NBA and fooled everyone into picking him as Rookie of the Year.

We have a YOUNG team that is just now starting to find a way to play like a team instead of that group of guys who happened to stumble across a box of matching uniforms on a street corner. We have a coach who is working hard to find out their strengths and weaknesses. A coach who some seem to conveniently forget came into this with no training camp, a predecessor who really mucked up the works AND who had to try and develop said team on the road for a large part of the first half of the shortened season.

People also seem to forget that a team has 13 players, some of whom have major roles and some of whom may be the current incarnation of Mateen Cleaves. EACH player has a role to play, however, and a successful team is built with a balance of stars and roleplayers.

There is room on our team for Evans, Thornton and IT. When we get an adequate SF, perhaps Smart will be better able to determine what role each of them should play - knowing that said role is not cast in concrete. One of the things that made the Spurs so dangerous for a number of years was the use of players like Manu, who could start or come off the bench and be equally devastating.

Tyreke Evans isn't perfect but he certainly isn't the cancer/ballhog/fraud some of you seem hellbent on labeling him. He's a Sacramento King, and personally some of the garbage posted about him almost makes me sick to my stomach.

Those are my random thoughts.

 

[The_Jamal]

Heh, wow. That sounds...do you want to delete that? Or have you just fallen into the advanced trash cult?

True shooting percentages are fun! Especialy since they require no actual knowledge of the basketball game being played to use! Some fun examples from some of the better teams in the league:

Luol Deng TS% .501
Kyle Korver TS% .608
Result: Start Korver!

Russel Westbrook TS% .548
Thabo Sefalosha TS% .611
Result: Feed Thabo!

Dwayne Wade TS% .567
Mario Chalemers TS% .628
Result: Unleash Chalmers!

Kobe Bryant TS% .529
Matt Barnes TS% .553
Result: Pass that torch baby!

TS% aka I Chuck A Lot of Threes % is one of the more abused stats out there. Unless of course it doesn't bother you that:

Michael Jordan career TS% .569
Kevin Martin career TS% .595


They are not playing the same game. One guy has defense built entirely with stopping him in mind. The other guy is an afterthought. Reverse the defensive focus then see what happens.

advanced trash cult? Perhaps you should try and understand advanced stats as well as how to use them before calling them trash

TS% and eFG% are the best ways to judge (wait for it) how effective someone is shooting the ball. Kyle Korver is a better shooter than Luol Deng. Kevin Martin is a better shooter than M.J. (blasphemous, I know) Thabo is the only outlier on your list who's having an insane shooting year that doesn't align with any of his career %'s which makes that example wrong as well.

My analysis of Reke was spot on. It's not my fault if you can't understand how TS%, eFG%, and shot attempts are the correct stats to show why he gets his averages on the offensive end

 

[The_Jamal]

Your last line made my jaw drop and I'm not joking. I'm certainly glad that sports franchises don't place as much high value on 15-game stretches as you do. You should research how many guys put up 20/5/5 in a rookie season.... yeah IT's definitely making history. And I guess I'm a "Reke homer" now?

BTW, I freaking love IT (hint. avatar.) But c'mon man.

/sigh.

Did I say IT was a better player than Reke? No

Did I say Reke isn't one of our franchise players who we need to depend on to get back to the playoffs? no

I said IT has been a better/ more efficient offensive player in his starting stretch than Reke has shown. Sample size is implied obviously, but I'd love to hear any statistical evidence that proves my statement wrong

 

[VF21]

advanced trash cult? Perhaps you should try and understand advanced stats as well as how to use them before calling them trash

TS% and eFG% are the best ways to judge (wait for it) how effective someone is shooting the ball. Kyle Korver is a better shooter than Luol Deng. Kevin Martin is a better shooter than M.J. (blasphemous, I know) Thabo is the only outlier on your list who's having an insane shooting year that doesn't align with any of his career %'s which makes that example wrong as well.

My analysis of Reke was spot on. It's not my fault if you can't understand how TS%, eFG%, and shot attempts are the correct stats to show why he gets his averages on the offensive end

OMG.

I am arguably the biggest Kevin Martin fan currently posting on this board - ask anyone - and even I find that statement ludicrous. Feel free to insult me if you like, but any credibility you might have had went out the window with that lunacy.

 

[The_Jamal]

OMG.

I am arguably the biggest Kevin Martin fan currently posting on this board - ask anyone - and even I find that statement ludicrous. Feel free to insult me if you like, but any credibility you might have had went out the window with that lunacy.

How am I wrong? Kevin Martin is the better career 3pt shooter and the better career FT shooter. Hell, I can name 50 guys off the top of my head who were better shooters than MJ. It certainly doesn't make them better PLAYERS than MJ who kills Martin and those other 50 shooters in literally every other basketball category known to man

 

[The_Jamal]

OMG.

I am arguably the biggest Kevin Martin fan currently posting on this board - ask anyone - and even I find that statement ludicrous. Feel free to insult me if you like, but any credibility you might have had went out the window with that lunacy.

This is also the danger of evaluating players with one statistic as Brick was trying to do. It obviously doesn't tell the whole story

 

[kingsnation]

2.5 proven seasons of what? He had 1 strong individual season and 1.5 seasons of being an inefficient scorer offensively. The Jump-shot still isn't there after 2.5 seasons. He's shown signs of being an elite defender, but has yet to prove he can do so on a consistent basis over that span. And, he has yet to show he can lead to the Kings gaining more wins since he's been here (not entirely all his fault of course, but he plays a huge part in how this good this franchise is)

He's not the only guy who's had to deal with extreme turmoil with this team either so that's not a valid excuse in my book. Cousins constantly got f-ed over by Westphal and has had to carry the "headcase" label with him by the national media. JT would probably be stuck at the end of the bench had Hayes not gotten hurt at the beginning of the year. Isaiah and Jimmer have had to deal with virtually no offseason and a coaching change 7 games into their rookie season.

Let's recap:

Year 1: Reke went ROTY and 20/5/5. But had no help at all.
Year 2: Gets help in DMC but Reke gets hurt and our coach is an idiot.
Year 3: Lockout, Coach fired. New coach thinks Reke is a 3.

On top of all of that ^^^ There's talk of the team even leaving Sacramento. There are very few players in this league that have had so much turmoil in their first 2.5 seasons of basketball. However, you say yourself that other players have faced adversity and you give examples of "other turmoils." For example, DMC who many say is the new face of our franchise and thus should be just as much accountable for our team sucking but you seem to give him a pass. JT "probably" being stuck at the end of the bench is just an assumption on your end, not a fact.

 

[jcwkings]

I would be fine with Tyreke being a 17/5/5 player, as long as he becomes an ELITE defender in this league. We will have enough scoring on this team with Cousins, Thornton, Isaiah, Jimmer. I think it would hurt us if Tyreke became a 23-25 ppg player. If he learned to shoot a mid range shot, he could easily become a 25 ppg player though, at which case Thornton could be expendable for a better fit.

 

[kingsnation]

/sigh.

Did I say IT was a better player than Reke? No

Did I say Reke isn't one of our franchise players who we need to depend on to get back to the playoffs? no

I said IT has been a better/ more efficient offensive player in his starting stretch than Reke has shown. Sample size is implied obviously, but I'd love to hear any statistical evidence that proves my statement wrong

/sigh?

Did I say that you said IT was better? No. However, you are saying that IT is starting his career better than Reke? Right? Maybe? Idk.

I think you're missing your own point, first of all. You say that "IT is better/more efficient offensive player in his starting stretch than Reke has shown." SO, are you talking Reke's first 15 games as a starter? Are you talking Reke's 2.5 years to IT's 15 games? I think that's where you've lost me. How can I provide any statistical information if you don't even have a clear viewpoint?

 

[The_Jamal]

Let's recap:

Year 1: Reke went ROTY and 20/5/5. But had no help at all.
Year 2: Gets help in DMC but Reke gets hurt and our coach is an idiot.
Year 3: Lockout, Coach fired. New coach thinks Reke is a 3.

On top of all of that ^^^ There's talk of the team even leaving Sacramento. There are very few players in this league that have had so much turmoil in their first 2.5 seasons of basketball. However, you say yourself that other players have faced adversity and you give examples of "other turmoils." For example, DMC who many say is the new face of our franchise and thus should be just as much accountable for our team sucking but you seem to give him a pass. JT "probably" being stuck at the end of the bench is just an assumption on your end, not a fact.

Yes, Boogie is just as accountable as Reke for the success of the Kings. But Boogie has made the improvements you want to see from a franchise cornerstone year 1 to year 2. He's already been a top 5-6 Center in the NBA this season and is poised to challenge Howard for the top C spot in the next few years. Would you not agree that Reke is not playing as well as he was his rookie year?

 

[Bricklayer]

advanced trash cult? Perhaps you should try and understand advanced stats as well as how to use them before calling them trash

Please.

Advanced stats are a wonderful way for people who don't know the game to demonstrate it conclusively to those that do. The problem rarely being in the stat per se, and more being in precisely the fact that those who rely on them the most don't have any feel for the circumstances they were accumulated under. Its like a couple of engineering geeks looking at a set of numbers to determine which car is fastest without any consideration at all of who the drivers were, what the road conditions were, or that car #2 had a flat tire. But oh, they will argue vociferously with you while pointing at those spreadsheets as conclusive proof until finally you just have to pat them on their head and send them home.

 

[ParniValjak]

I would be fine with Tyreke being a 17/5/5 player, as long as he becomes an ELITE defender in this league. We will have enough scoring on this team with Cousins, Thornton, Isaiah, Jimmer. I think it would hurt us if Tyreke became a 23-25 ppg player. If he learned to shoot a mid range shot, he could easily become a 25 ppg player though, at which case Thornton could be expendable for a better fit.

Now that's just plain silly!

How can a player whose game is based on penetration, averaging 23-25ppg be "hurtful" to a team! THAT is precisely what you want your backcourt star to be. Elite at getting to the basket and causing the defence to collapse. Those sort of players are as rare as rocking horse **** but in your mind it would hurt us?!

Are you kidding me?!

Did you every think why players like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Roy, Jordan et al played on winning teams (some of them multiple champions) while nice little "effective" shooters like Kevin Martin and the likes have barely sniffed the play offs and needed to get on someone's bandwagon to win the title (eg Ray Allen).

Think about that for a second and maybe, just maybe it will dawn on you...but I am not holding my breath!

 

[kingsnation]

Yes, Boogie is just as accountable as Reke for the success of the Kings. But Boogie has made the improvements you want to see from a franchise cornerstone year 1 to year 2. He's already been a top 5-6 Center in the NBA this season and is poised to challenge Howard for the top C spot in the next few years. Would you not agree that Reke is not playing as well as he was his rookie year?

You answered your own question. DMC is the franchise cornerstone. Reke appeared to be the guy in year one. Mostly because he had no help and dominated w/ 20/5/5 and ROTY. After his rookie season, everyone's expectations were raised to the point that if Reke didn't repeat that same success, we were upset. Has he improved? No. However, see things through the proper perspective: Reke was hurt last year and still put up amazing numbers. In 2.5 seasons, Reke has played and started games at the 1, 2 AND 3. He's gone through coaching changes. He's had injuries. This franchise has not given Reke the tools to succeed or to repeat his ROTY success. I think that's where everyone get's so upset. Everyone wants Reke to be the 20/5/5 guy. Every single night. And that's just not realistic.

 

[jpsls]

Let's recap:

Year 1: Reke went ROTY and 20/5/5. But had no help at all.
Year 2: Gets help in DMC but Reke gets hurt and our coach is an idiot.
Year 3: Lockout, Coach fired. New coach thinks Reke is a 3.

On top of all of that ^^^ There's talk of the team even leaving Sacramento. There are very few players in this league that have had so much turmoil in their first 2.5 seasons of basketball. However, you say yourself that other players have faced adversity and you give examples of "other turmoils." For example, DMC who many say is the new face of our franchise and thus should be just as much accountable for our team sucking but you seem to give him a pass. JT "probably" being stuck at the end of the bench is just an assumption on your end, not a fact.

Where we these excuses when guys like Casspi, Hawes, Thompson, Greene, and our current bench players were getting berated on a constant basis?

 

[kingsnation]

Where we these excuses when guys like Casspi, Hawes, Thompson, Greene, and our current bench players were getting berated on a constant basis?

Please clarify?

 

[The_Jamal]

Please.

Advanced stats are a wonderful way for people who don't know the game to demonstrate it conclusively to those that do. The problem rarely being in the stat per se, and more being in precisely the fact that those who rely on them the most don't have any feel for the circumstances they were accumulated under. Its like a couple of engineering geeks looking at a set of numbers to determine which car is fastest without any consideration at all of who the drivers were, what the road conditions were, or that car #2 had a flat tire. But oh, they will argue vociferously with you while pointing at those spreadsheets as conclusive proof until finally you just have to pat them on their head and send them home.

Ha.

There's no use in arguing with someone who chooses to be ignorant about become more knowledgeable about basketball. Here's the funny thing about your comment: Advanced stats FULLY account for the situation in which the stats were accumulated on a far more accurate scale than traditional statistics do

 

[Bricklayer]

Ha.

There's no use in arguing with someone who chooses to be ignorant about become more knowledgeable about basketball. Here's the funny thing about your comment: Advanced stats FULLY account for the situation in which the stats were accumulated on a far more accurate scale than traditional statistics do

Wrong tack.