Random Stats: One More Time

[Bricklayer]

1) Ron Artest 2007
(post Jan. 1) 33gms 38.3min 22.2pts (.493 FG% .428 3pt% .715 FT%) 6.6reb 3.4ast 2.3stl 0.6blk

Raising this question: What more do we want?

Comparison stats:
Ron '07: 22.2pts (.493 FG% .428 3pt% .715 FT%) 6.6reb 3.4ast 2.3stl 0.6blk
KMartin: 21.1pts (.490 FG% .388 3pt% .850 FT%) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.1blk

Which is not meant to stir up more stupid Ron vs. Kevin stuff, merely to note that the impression of Kevin's season is overwhelmingly positive. And that is not true of Ron.

2) PEJA VU: Speaking of Kevin stats, getting scary now

Pedja Yr3: 20.4pts (.470 FG% .400 3pt% .856 FT%) 5.8reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.2blk
KMart Yr3: 21.1pts (.490 FG% .388 3pt% .850 FT%) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.1blk

3) And The King Who Makes Us Win Is...Brad Miller:

Kings +/- (among major players) 06-07:
Miller..... +6.9
Artest... +5.3
Corliss... +4.9
Cisco.... +3.6
Bibby.... +1.6
Kevin.... -3.0
Salmons -3.4
Shareef. -6.1
Thomas. -8.5
(source of stats 82games.com)

And that notable aberration at -3.0 has been going on all year, and I am at a loss to explain it. Often that can have something to do with the backup (for instance Brad +6.9 is backed up by Reef -6.1, but in this case the primary backup for Kevin (Salmons) is also surprisingly low.

Looking inside the Oncourt/Offcourt Per 48 numbers for Kevin:
Offense ON:108.3 OFF:104.1 DIFF:+4.2
Defense ON:109.6 OFF:101.6 DIFF:-8.1

So our offense plays noticeably better with him out there, but our defense really stinks, and hence the negative +/-. Much as I get frustrated by Kevin's defense, I don't hink its THAT bad.
Mike Bibby for comparison:
Offense ON:107.4 OFF:106.9 DIFF:+0.5
Defense ON:107.9 OFF:106.6 DIFF:-1.3

4)Mike Bibby Pre/Post All Star Numbers:
Pre: 16.7pts (.387 FG% .298 3pt% .831 FT%) 3.4reb 5.3ast 1.1stl 0.1blk
Post: 19.3pts (.464 FG% .462 3pt% .820 FT%) 2.6reb 3.9ast 1.3stl 0.0blk

The shooting has come around, the 3pt shooting has been through the roof. At the same time, it has becoem incredibly one dimensional, and the assists are down to a terrible 3.9. That leaves Mike at 5.0ast/gm for the season, and open the possibility that he might average fewer than 5 on the year for the first time in his career. Then again, the last time he averages as few as 5.0ast on the season? 2001-02, the year we met the Lakers in the WCF and Mike became a playoff hero.

5) Rebounding

We have dropped all the way to 29th in the league in rebounds (39.07), only Toronto is worse at 38.81. We are also 29th in Rebounding Margin (-4.2), only Golden State is worse there at -4.9.

6) Blocks

We have also seized 29th place in shotblocking, at 3.2blks a game. Only Milwaulkee is worse at 2.6.

7) Steals

On the flipside, along with the ability to flop magnificently, our lone exceptional positive stat continues to be steals, led by Ron of course. We are 3rd in the league there at 8.29 a game, about where we have been all year. Ron leads the league at 2.3 a game, and with a significant edge over the #2 man, Iverson at 2.1. Might be the first time a King will have led the league in something since Webb led in rebounding in '99.

 

[reyes13]

Damn, Artest has a better three % than Peja?
I just don't know why he gets such bad remarks from people...he is one of the only kings that plays w/ heart. I just think we need a more of a coach to council him on his shot selection and he'll be okay.

 

[AriesMar27]

Damn, Artest has a better three % than Peja?
I just don't know why he gets such bad remarks from people...he is one of the only kings that plays w/ heart. I just think we need a more of a coach to council him on his shot selection and he'll be okay.

no, thats rons numbers since jan. 1 and pejas numbers from his 3rd yr in the league....

 

[Nico]

Interesting stats bricklayer !

I already pointed out the fact that while he's got really good numbers Artest doesn't get much credit 'round here.


For Kevin "+/-" my explanation in the early season was that his plays where not very effective. I mean there are points you score in crunch time and in garbage time, to be simple, and eventhough he was having 20pts game his influence on the game was sometimes less important than mike 10points.

But right now i don't think the same way.

So i think the reason is his poor defense. Plain and simple. His back-up, Salmons defends well better so even if he's not as good scorer as Kev his defense makes it going.

The other defense less player of the starting five, Mike Bibby doesn't get a such low +/- because he doesn't have a backup who knows how to run the team as mike does. Mike is good to handle the team and the pressure.

 

[Kingster]

1) Ron Artest 2007
(post Jan. 1) 33gms 38.3min 22.2pts (.493 FG% .428 3pt% .715 FT%) 6.6reb 3.4ast 2.3stl 0.6blk

Raising this question: What more do we want?

Comparison stats:
Ron '07: 22.2pts (.493 FG% .428 3pt% .715 FT%) 6.6reb 3.4ast 2.3stl 0.6blk
KMartin: 21.1pts (.490 FG% .388 3pt% .850 FT%) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.1blk

Which is not meant to stir up more stupid Ron vs. Kevin stuff, merely to note that the impression of Kevin's season is overwhelmingly positive. And that is not true of Ron.

2) PEJA VU: Speaking of Kevin stats, getting scary now

Pedja Yr3: 20.4pts (.470 FG% .400 3pt% .856 FT%) 5.8reb 2.2ast 1.2stl 0.2blk
KMart Yr3: 21.1pts (.490 FG% .388 3pt% .850 FT%) 4.3reb 2.2ast 1.3stl 0.1blk

Unfortunately, Ron-Ron's stats do not reflect an accurate picture. He's a guy who doesn't make the other players better on the offensive end - he makes them worse. I just reviewed some of the first quarter of last night's game. What does he do? He drives to the basket against 3 defenders - twice. I really don't think that play is in Musselman's playbook. And when you have a guy do that, it doesn't do wonders for offensive continuity. Either his basketball IQ is down there with Kenny Thomas, or he's uncoachable. Take your pick. In any case, I hope the Kings continue to play him a lot, so they can continue to lose a lot, and pad Artest's stats so that they can seduce some GM for trading for him in the offseason.

As for Kevin, his stats are impressive, and the similarity to Peja is interesting, but I would expect Kevin to end up being a better player than Peja in the coming years because he significantly quicker than Peja, and unlike Peja, can get his own shot. As the years progress I see Martin's ball-handling getting better and better, his ability to penetrate to the basket to get shots for his teamates improving, and unlike Artest, he will make his teamates better.

 

[Kingster]

6) Blocks

We have also seized 29th place in shotblocking, at 3.2blks a game. Only Milwaulkee is worse at 2.6.

But hey, Jerry Reynolds says that shot blocking isn't that important because a lot of times the offensive team gets back the ball. I guess we want to pass on any shot blockers in the draft or free agency; they're just worthless.

 

[fnordius]

Kevin.... -3.0
(source of stats 82games.com)

And that notable aberration at -3.0 has been going on all year, and I am at a loss to explain it. Often that can have something to do with the backup (for instance Brad +6.9 is backed up by Reef -6.1, but in this case the primary backup for Kevin (Salmons) is also surprisingly low.

Looking inside the Oncourt/Offcourt Per 48 numbers for Kevin:
Offense ON:108.3 OFF:104.1 DIFF:+4.2
Defense ON:109.6 OFF:101.6 DIFF:-8.1

So our offense plays noticeably better with him out there, but our defense really stinks, and hence the negative +/-. Much as I get frustrated by Kevin's defense, I don't think its THAT bad.

That same thing has been puzzling me for some time now... despite the fact that it looks like Kevin and Ron are the only thing keeping us in games, and that the two of them, statistically, are our most productive players, we seem to be losing when Kev's on the floor.

Part of it might be Muss' strange rotations, like when he pulls Brad and puts in Ronnie (Who is playing C then? Do they know that they're playing C? Does the rest of the team?). But those rotations seem random enough that you'd expect them to generate more noise than pattern.

Is Muss tending to leave Kev in longest in games where we're getting slaughtered? That might account for at least a bit of it. Or parts of games where we're getting slaughtered -- anyone who is always on the floor through 3rd quarters, for example, would have to take a serious hit to their stats. Still, these don't seem like enough to explain it all.

There's no way to make any sense out of our team's overall performance, but I do find the mystery of Kev's stats to be one of the strangest and most intriguing aspects.

 

[6th]

But hey, Jerry Reynolds says that shot blocking isn't that important because a lot of times the offensive team gets back the ball. I guess we want to pass on any shot blockers in the draft or free agency; they're just worthless.

LOL!! Your sarcasm speaks volumes, and I think most of us agree that shot blocking can really get a crowd up on their feet and into any game. So, sorry, Jerry, but we'll take a shot blocker any day and twice on Sunday.

 

[Bricklayer]

8) FTs

A late addition:

Before pouring in an "awesome" 48 FTs tonight, the Kings had briefly fallen from the catbird seat of floppiest fops in the league. But now we "are back", and have reclaimed the #1 with an average of over 30 FTs a game.

This is how significant being #1 in that stat is:

Kings #1 at 30.3

meanwhile amongst the title contenders:

Dallas is #19 at 25.1
Detroit is #20 at 24.9
San Antonio is #26 at 23.5
Phoenix is #30 at 22.8

You could hardly select a stat that tracks worse for being an elite team.

 

[SacTownKid]

Any comparisons between Kevin and Peja are purely statistical, that's for sure.

 

[BMiller52]

Any comparisons between Kevin and Peja are purely statistical, that's for sure.

Agreed. When is the last time Peja got to the FT line 20 times? Or even when did he ever do that?

 

[uolj]

Any comparisons between Kevin and Peja are purely statistical, that's for sure.

Really? Are you just referring to their style of play?

I think they are alike in more ways than just those statistics.

 

[fnordius]

Really? Are you just referring to their style of play?

I think they are alike in more ways than just those statistics.

I don't, really. Peja was an amazing shooter, but the key was getting him the ball when he was in position and ready to go. When it came to creating shots, he was not so special. And did Peja draw a lot of fouls while driving agressively towards the hoop? No, no, no.

Kevin creates shots, and slashes(/flops?) his way into a lot of FTs. Like Peja, he may be an excellent shooter who needs to work on his D, but I think the comparison ends there.

 

[SacTownKid]

In some ways they are. Like for instance how both take a big orange ball and throw it through a circle hanging about 10 feet in the air. They both do that pretty well.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

3) And The King Who Makes Us Win Is...Brad Miller:

Kings +/- (among major players) 06-07:
Miller..... +6.9
Artest... +5.3
Corliss... +4.9
Cisco.... +3.6
Bibby.... +1.6
Kevin.... -3.0
Salmons -3.4
Shareef. -6.1
Thomas. -8.5
(source of stats 82games.com)

And that notable aberration at -3.0 has been going on all year, and I am at a loss to explain it. Often that can have something to do with the backup (for instance Brad +6.9 is backed up by Reef -6.1, but in this case the primary backup for Kevin (Salmons) is also surprisingly low.

Brick,

I think I can mostly explain this. Part of the promblem with Kevin is his defence which has already been noted. Also, some of this can be explained by the fact that this team is mediocre which will lower all of the team's rating relative to the rest of the league and where they might be ranked if any individual player was on the Mavericks, Suns or Spurs.

However, another big part is that +/-, depending on what the site you used includes, does not take into account the other players on the court. According to this stat - Miller, Artest and Bibby have a big effect on us winning. However, they have all missed a decent to big amout of time this season. Now when particularly Artest and Bibby are out both Kevin and Salmons see much more minutes. This means that they are on the floor when our team is significantly weakened and should be performing much worse. Let's say Artest misses a game, despite his insanity, he definitley helps us win with his D and post/driving O. So when he is out both Kevin and Salmons receive a lot more minutes without other players that help us win. Not only does this mean for a player like Kevin that he is not playing alongside another great player but also for a good bench player like Salmons, he is being judged as a starter playing 40 minutes against the other team's best players all game, when he is best playing 25 minutes a game against tired starters or the other team's bench. This will greatly affect both of their +/- rating while not really crediting them with the positive contributions they provide to the team in full health. This is something that can be corrected with some tweaks to the +/- statistic, but for now leaves a gap in the actual measurement of how much better a full Kings team is with them on the court.

 

[Entity]

Brick I have been equally impressed with Ron as Kevin this season. As for the FT stats that is hard to explain why the elite teams are near the bottom in FT attempts but, yet last year the NBA championship was won on Wades ability to get FT attempts.

 

[mcsluggo]

two random notes/thoughts/comments

1) <from the that last post> what you need to look at is free throw differential, much more than level of fts. It still might be a horrible predicter, but will likelely be a LESS horrible predicter. THe Kings play UGLY ball right now. IN fact, they are basically the "anti-kings-ball" kings, if you think of "kings-ball" as the beautiful well oiled offensive machine that prospered for most of this century. These kings just play ugly, and there are more fouls all around, on both sides of the ball, no? <<I may be wrong, I really haven't gotten a chance to see 'em that much this season>>

2) that stats comparison just reminds me that Peja used to get "6ish" rebounds a game... remember when we used to think "if he could just push that up to the 8ish range, wow!" instead, we speant the last part of his career in Sac wishing he would add 2 rebounds a game to get BACK UP to 6ish range. Sad.
...And yet, aside from this year he outrebounded the muscled beast-child artest? weird stuff, that rebounding...

 

[mcsluggo]

Brick,

I think I can mostly explain this. Part of the promblem with Kevin is his defence which has already been noted. Also, some of this can be explained by the fact that this team is mediocre which will lower all of the team's rating relative to the rest of the league and where they might be ranked if any individual player was on the Mavericks, Suns or Spurs.

However, another big part is that +/-, depending on what the site you used includes, does not take into account the other players on the court. According to this stat - Miller, Artest and Bibby have a big effect on us winning. However, they have all missed a decent to big amout of time this season. Now when particularly Artest and Bibby are out both Kevin and Salmons see much more minutes. This means that they are on the floor when our team is significantly weakened and should be performing much worse. Let's say Artest misses a game, despite his insanity, he definitley helps us win with his D and post/driving O. So when he is out both Kevin and Salmons receive a lot more minutes without other players that help us win. Not only does this mean for a player like Kevin that he is not playing alongside another great player but also for a good bench player like Salmons, he is being judged as a starter playing 40 minutes against the other team's best players all game, when he is best playing 25 minutes a game against tired starters or the other team's bench. This will greatly affect both of their +/- rating while not really crediting them with the positive contributions they provide to the team in full health. This is something that can be corrected with some tweaks to the +/- statistic, but for now leaves a gap in the actual measurement of how much better a full Kings team is with them on the court.

interesting. Sounds reasonable to me.

boils down to the fact that al the OTHER starters have been in and out of the line-up, and Martin as the only CONSISTANT starter has had to pick up the slack, and his +/- stats suffer from it .....

hmmm?

 

[Gary]

That Ron stat where he is avg 22ppg is decent if you just were to look at it right off..

You got to delve deeper though. Those 22ppg are coming off of him holding the ball and not getting others involved. I would rather his assists go up two a game (which he is capable of) and points down about 4-5ppg. That is the perfect Ron.. 18ppg 7rpg 5apg 2.5spg is the Ron I want. Not to say those stats are bad.

When Ron holds the ball and tries to take over games his stats will be up there, and almost all-star like.. But the players around him will start to stand around and just plain flat out stink.. Basically him avging an extra 5 will take about 10 points away from the team as a whole.. I hope you understood my point.. I am having trouble explaining.