Potential Free Agent/Trade/Sign Tracker, '25-'26 Season

[twslam07]

That team still went nowhere and they identified Domas as a reason for that, and traded for Hali. And the present shows that hey were right in their assessment.

Incorrect again.

They didn’t identify Sabonis as a reason for going nowhere. They recognized that the fall of Oladipo left them without a guy that could be a star, go-to scorer with minimal ways of acquiring such a player (their team was still good enough to where they wouldn’t be picking high and Indy isn’t exactly a FA destination). You attributing “going nowhere” to Sabonis is disingenuous.

The trade gave them an opportunity to acquire a player who could be an upgrade in talent if he continued to develop (meaning maybe he could be the best or 2nd best player on a contender) while also helping them rebuild (considering he was only 21 at the time and on his rookie contract).

Murray has always played next to Sabonis, and our rim protection was never good because we lack length.
This fact always killed us in our most important games. This was always exploited because it is easily exploitable.
Even in the RS we never did well against teams that are naturally long.

No forward is going to give us that length, thats just a fact.
And you are right, that a C who cannot get switched on fours is not a good partner for Sabonis, this only lowers the good partners to the likes of Wemby, Mobley and Chet.

You’re missing the point.

Murray has great size & length at SF and is a good rim protector when compared to other SFs. The issue is that we haven’t had a PF with good size & length on this team for Sabonis’ entire Kings tenure. Harrison Barnes & DeMar DeRozan are nowhere close to cutting it. We need both forward spots to have size & length, and pointing to us only having one forward with size & length and saying “see…it doesn’t work” is not a serious argument in my eyes.

Just to illustrate the size/length improvement by swapping Barnes/DeRozan for Washington, here are their measurements…

Barnes
Standing Reach = 8’6”
Wingspan = 6’11.25”
Weight = 227.8 lbs

DeRozan
Standing Reach = 8’6.5”
Wingspan = 6’9”
Weight = 211.2 lbs

Washington
Standing Reach = 8’11”
Wingspan = 7’2.5”
Weight = 223 lbs

As you can see, it’s not even close and it would be a significant improvement to our length issue. And it’s probably worth noting that Barnes & DeRozan were extremely ground bound players which limits how far this length can even reach. Washington is definitely not ground bound so it’ll pop even more so.

And these are just physical measurements. This doesn’t even consider the point that Washington is just a flat out better defender than Barnes & DeRozan too. So we’re significantly improving our length, athleticism, and defense. I don’t see that as having a marginal impact.

Even if you are thinking that your proposal could work, we will not be a team that gets us deep into the playoffs with that. Not in this west.
This means that Domas, who openly said that he is monitoring what the kings are doing, will demand a trade at the end of the year. With that trade demand, and another team not being able to build a winner around him, he will lose value.

I’ve already had a very very extensive back & forth with @SacTownKid where I mentioned that I would choose to rebuild this off-season, but that is not because I think Sabonis is a player you can win with. That’s simply because we’re in a similar situation as Indiana was when they traded Sabonis. Our Oladipo (Fox) is no longer on this team. We have little ways of adding a star that we can pair with Sabonis and give us playoff success.

Although that’s the direction I want to take, I’m also not naive to the fact that Vivek won’t let a rebuild happen and Perry has even come out and said the goal was to win.

My trade idea contradicts my preferred vision, but it’s a good idea working within the confounds Vivek has set so if we’re going to debate the trade idea, we first must agree on the restrictions Vivek is placing; otherwise, we will just be spinning our wheels.

The last thing I’ll say on this point is that you’re acting as if my trade is the final move. I’ve been very clear in my extensive back & forth with @SacTownKid that a LaVine/Sabonis duo is not enough to win. LaVine will be an expiring next year and could be an attractive piece to add in a trade for a star as it would allow a team to get cap quickly.

The trade is a step towards building a serious playoff team. Not the final step.

Right now there are enough people believing that you can build a winner around him more easily than i think you can.
At the end of the season the number of persons that think like you will be lower.

Well that assumes the people observing Sabonis situation don’t really understand basketball (which I don’t accept). Sabonis cannot be your best player on your team and Sabonis needs a good defense around him (as well as forwards with length to help protect the paint). It doesn’t take a lot of mental acumen to come to this conclusion and if the Kings continue to put an ill fitting roster around him, I don’t think that’s going to hurt his value in the eyes of others. What will hurt his value is if he gets frustrated that the Kings continue to put an ill fitting roster around him and he asks to be traded.

 

[KayDee55]

I guess we have to agree to disagree otherwise we occupy as much of this thread as domas occupies our cap.

We will have to wait and see.
More and more talking heads are talking about how it would be clever to trade Domas now, its not like i am the only person having an outlandishly crazy idea.

One thing: I think you are underestimating what Domas said, saying that he is monitoring the teams situation.
We heard that from Fox, too and he was gone later.
Most of the time a player says something like this, he leaves at the trade deadline or in the next offseason. Domas will be no different.
We will trade him, the question is when.
I can assure you, if its next offseason, you will not be happy about the package we are going to get, since we will be the second team that was not successfull with the Domas experiment.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I guess we have to agree to disagree otherwise we occupy as much of this thread as domas occupies our cap.

We will have to wait and see.
More and more talking heads are talking about how it would be clever to trade Domas now, its not like i am the only person having an outlandishly crazy idea.

One thing: I think you are underestimating what Domas said, saying that he is monitoring the teams situation.
We heard that from Fox, too and he was gone later.
Most of the time a player says something like this, he leaves at the trade deadline or in the next offseason. Domas will be no different.
We will trade him, the question is when.
I can assure you, if its next offseason, you will not be happy about the package we are going to get, since we will be the second team that was not successfull with the Domas experiment.

Domas isn’t even good enough to “monitor” a situation that’s the funny part

 

[twslam07]

How to prevent penetration the easiest?
Having a rim protecting presence down there, and they wont even try as much.

No that’s not right. Having perimeter defenders that can keep their man in front of them is the answer.

Thats why boston lost, because their inside d presence, Porzingis, was sick and couldnt perform. The rest of the team was full of elite defenders, but thats not enough if you truly want a winner.

Wait…and the team that had KAT as their rim protector beat them? How could that possibly happen according to your logic? It’s almost as if there are multiple facets of the game that contribute to winning and rim protection is only just one of those facets.

 

[twslam07]

I guess we have to agree to disagree otherwise we occupy as much of this thread as domas occupies our cap.

I’ve actually already demonstrated that we can have 2 additional max contracts on this team with Sabonis, Murray (on a new contract), Ellis (on a new contract), and Carter on this roster without going over the 2nd apron. In fact, we’d still have $36-41 mil to work with before hitting that apron so I’m not sure I’m following the concern with his cap amount at this point.

We will have to wait and see.
More and more talking heads are talking about how it would be clever to trade Domas now, its not like i am the only person having an outlandishly crazy idea.

One thing: I think you are underestimating what Domas said, saying that he is monitoring the teams situation.
We heard that from Fox, too and he was gone later.
Most of the time a player says something like this, he leaves at the trade deadline or in the next offseason. Domas will be no different.
We will trade him, the question is when.
I can assure you, if its next offseason, you will not be happy about the package we are going to get, since we will be the second team that was not successfull with the Domas experiment.

I think you need to reread my last reply.

Again, I was very clear that I think we should try and trade Sabonis this offseason and begin rebuilding.

Now, let’s set my preference aside for a second and ask the question “Will Vivek allow Sabonis to be traded this offseason and pivot to a rebuild?” The answer is very very likely “no.”

You can continue to bang your fist on the table and say he should be traded now (and I don’t necessarily disagree with that), but I’m more interested in discussing realistic options based on the parameters Vivek has set for this team. To each their own.

 

[KayDee55]

No that’s not right. Having perimeter defenders that can keep their man in front of them is the answer.



Wait…and the team that had KAT as their rim protector beat them? How could that possibly happen according to your logic? It’s almost as if there are multiple facets of the game that contribute to winning and rim protection is only just one of those facets.

Well, this answer is either dishonest or shows me that you dont watch baskebtall and just try to understand it via stats/advanced stats.

But really lets stop occupying this thread, if you really want to go on with this discussion you can open a new thread.
I already said what i said, and you are selectively answering, that brings us nowhere, and the rest of the forum probably doesnt care anyway.

 

[twslam07]

Well, this answer is either dishonest or shows me that you dont watch baskebtall and just try to understand it via stats/advanced stats.

But really lets stop occupying this thread, if you really want to go on with this discussion you can open a new thread.
I already said what i said, and you are selectively answering, that brings us nowhere, and the rest of the forum probably doesnt care anyway.

You’re going to claim my reply is dishonest without telling me how it’s dishonest? Attack the idea (not the person). What about what I said was dishonest or incorrect?

 

[KayDee55]

I didnt say its dishonest, i said it may be. Maybe you just dont watch that much basketball, which is not an attack, thats completely ok.

As to why
Since the beginning of basketball one of the most important tools to stop penetration is having a fearsome defensive inside presence.
There is no opinion on this, its just part of basketball, all around the world.
Its like 1+1=2

I am not saying its the only tool, but without it an inside presence it will always be much easier to penetrate.
Even more than one elite perimeter defenders will not be able to hinder a whole team penetrating all game long. Thats just not realistic.
And thats why you need someone to help out under the basket. Ideally someone long, who has good defensive instincts.

Thats why it is much harder for slashers to score in europe because of no 3 second rule and thats why we have the rule in the NBA to make it harder for inside defenders --> thats why you need ELITE rim protection if you want to be successful in this league.

Either you know this, then your answer is dishonest, or you dont, then you get your basketball experience mostly via stats.
Or you watch the games but look at your phone most of the time.

And regarding the Knicks Inside D. They have Mitchell Robinson, one of the best inside defenders of the league.

Again, either you know this, and choose to ingore it, when you say KAT is their main inside d presence, then it is dishonest.
Or you just didnt watch the series. Which is okay.

 

[Noble]

Time to bring back Willie Cauley-Stein

 

[twslam07]

I didnt say its dishonest, i said it may be. Maybe you just dont watch that much basketball, which is not an attack, thats completely ok.

How about we leave these comments at the door and see if your ideas can stand on their own. Sound good?

As to why
Since the beginning of basketball one of the most important tools to stop penetration is having a fearsome defensive inside presence.
There is no opinion on this, its just part of basketball, all around the world.
Its like 1+1=2

I am not saying its the only tool, but without it an inside presence it will always be much easier to penetrate.
Even more than one elite perimeter defenders will not be able to hinder a whole team penetrating all game long. Thats just not realistic.
And thats why you need someone to help out under the basket. Ideally someone long, who has good defensive instincts.

Again, a rim protector does not "stop penetration." In order to penetrate into the paint, you must start from outside of the paint, yes? And which players are defending people outside of the paint? Is your rim protector/C defending people outside of the paint for the most part? No, it's your perimeter defenders that are "stopping penetration."

Once a player penetrates the paint, now this is when your rim protector comes into play. Rim protection can stop that player from getting all the way to the rim (forcing them to take a lower % floater or to pass out) or can give a higher quality contest at the rim (making it less likely that they convert at the rim).

And let's be clear, you're never going to "stop" penetration completely, but the more perimeter defenders you have, you can help "limit" penetration which helps protect your below average rim protection. At the end of the day, there's more than one way to build a competent defense.

Thats why it is much harder for slashers to score in europe because of no 3 second rule and thats why we have the rule in the NBA to make it harder for inside defenders --> thats why you need ELITE rim protection if you want to be successful in this league.

I think you're conflating things here so let me help break it down...Which defense do you think would be better?

• A defense "anchored" by Sabonis at C that doesn't have to worry about the 3 second rule
• A defense "anchored" by Sabonis at C that does have to worry about the 3 second rule

I think the answer is pretty clear that it would be the first one so I reject the premise that it being more difficult to score in Europe (because of the 3 second rule) is somehow evidence as to why you "need" elite rim protection. It's more difficult to score in that league in general because all Cs can camp out in the paint (whether those Cs are elite rim protectors or not).

Either you know this, then your answer is dishonest, or you dont, then you get your basketball experience mostly via stats.
Or you watch the games but look at your phone most of the time.

Again, let's leave these types of comments at the door. Sound good?

And regarding the Knicks Inside D. They have Mitchell Robinson, one of the best inside defenders of the league.


Again, either you know this, and choose to ingore it, when you say KAT is their main inside d presence, then it is dishonest.
Or you just didnt watch the series. Which is okay.

This is an odd explanation to try and justify your stance. Robinson averaged 20.6 mpg in that series (and came off the bench). That means that for 58% of the minutes in that series, NYK did not have a rim protector on the floor. Contrast that with BOS who played 100% of their minutes with at least one of Porzingis, Horford, & Kornet at C (and all are good defenders who protect the rim). How did the team that decided to not have a rim protector on the floor for 58% of their minutes end up winning?

Also, can I take this a step further? Are you saying that we can actually keep Sabonis on the roster and just add a backup C who is a good rim protector and then we're good to go on rim protection?

 

[The_Jamal]

Tw is getting full on thejamaled right now. Comes into a debate with quality thinking and reasoning and the other side refuses to answer the question and skirts by with baseless claims and attacks. Truly hate to see it

 

[TheMobb]

Tw is getting full on thejamaled right now. Comes into a debate with quality thinking and reasoning and the other side refuses to answer the question and skirts by with baseless claims and attacks. Truly hate to see it

It’s almost pointless. Even presented with facts, logic and reasoning if it doesn’t fit the narrative they want to believe it falls on deaf ears.

 

[KayDee55]

How about we leave these comments at the door and see if your ideas can stand on their own. Sound good?

You asked why i said that, and i answered your question in a mannered tone.
You trying to let that sentence that ends with "thats completely ok" look like i am attacking you, is disingenuous, again.

Again, a rim protector does not "stop penetration." In order to penetrate into the paint, you must start from outside of the paint, yes? And which players are defending people outside of the paint? Is your rim protector/C defending people outside of the paint for the most part? No, it's your perimeter defenders that are "stopping penetration."

The threat of a good rim protector stops penetrating attempts at the core. It even helps your perimeter defenders. This is basic basketball logic. Like really basic. Thats one of the first things you learn when you play basketball, even at the lowest level.

I think the answer is pretty clear that it would be the first one so I reject the premise that it being more difficult to score in Europe (because of the 3 second rule) is somehow evidence as to why you "need" elite rim protection. It's more difficult to score in that league in general because all Cs can camp out in the paint (whether those Cs are elite rim protectors or not).

you got chain of causality wrong there. sorry for not being more clear.
The main point is, you need, whatever team you have, elite rim protection, so be an elite team in the NBA. The teams that are in the finals show that.
Its easier to protect the rim in europe, because of the lack of the 3 seconds rule, which is why you can have a great inside d with a basic rim protector.
Its harder in the NBA to protect the rim, because of the 3 seconds rule, which is why you need an elite rim protector, if you want to have an overall elite defense.

Again, let's leave these types of comments at the door. Sound good?

again, i just answered your question. Dont ask questions, if you cant handle the answer.

Robinson averaged 20.6 mpg in that series (and came off the bench). That means that for 58% of the minutes in that series

So? It was enough for the Celtics, who lacked interiour defense. It wasnt against OKC.

Contrast that with BOS who played 100% of their minutes with at least one of Porzingis, Horford, & Kornet at C (and all are good defenders who protect the rim).

Things like these are, why i think you didnt watch a game of the series. Horford is done, he not a defensive anchor anymore. Porzingis was a net negative, offensively and defensively, because of his illness, or whatever he still hast.
The only time they had inside d was Kornet.
And like you said, there are many things that needs to be done for a defense to be elite, but without elite rim protection, you cannot have an elite defense. And Kornet cant spearhead an elite inside d.

see if your ideas can stand on their own. Sound good?

I wrote that the season will show who is right, before you had to write an essay again.

Are you saying that we can actually keep Sabonis on the roster and just add a backup C who is a good rim protector and then we're good to go on rim protection?

If that person is a good rim protector, then yes (don't tell me Len was one), the rim protection will be there, the defense could be good, if Sabonis runs like a mofo at the 4 on defense, which won't happen. This is why I am saying in like every answer: For Sabonis you need someone who can keep his back clean.
Almost every starting 4 will just run by him, almost every starting 5 will just score over him. You need someone like Mobley or Wemby, who is long enough to keep the ball out of the hands of a 5, and can protect the paint from penetration of the 4, that cant be defended by Domas.

Again:

I guess we have to agree to disagree otherwise we occupy as much of this thread as domas occupies our cap.

We will have to wait and see.

We will have to wait and see how the season goes. If you want to discuss further i can give you my discord or whatever, but we don't have to occupy the thread with this pointless discussion.
I hope this discussion will not be on your mind when the season is done, but if you want, you can get a moderator to pin my comment about Sabonis being impossible FOR US to build around, us ending as best as a first round exit, and us trading him for scraps, to get rid of the contract.

 

[Tetsujin]

Time to bring back Willie Cauley-Stein

What’s big Sim Bhullar up to?

 

[ESP47]

It’s almost pointless. Even presented with facts, logic and reasoning if it doesn’t fit the narrative they want to believe it falls on deaf ears.

It's TDOS. We either get dead silence or bickering. I'll take bickering.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

It's TDOS. We either get dead silence or bickering. I'll take bickering.

We gotta get another one of them TDOS Desert Island Drafts going or something

 

[joemama]

Nah

What’s big Sim Bhullar up to?

Nah, Papa G!

 

[twslam07]

You asked why i said that, and i answered your question in a mannered tone.
You trying to let that sentence that ends with "thats completely ok" look like i am attacking you, is disingenuous, again.

So because I disagree with you the options are 1.) I'm either dishonest or 2.) I don't watch basketball. Do you not understand how that's a discussion about the person and not the ideas itself? If you're confident in your ideas, let them stand by themselves and see if they can withstand scrutiny.

The threat of a good rim protector stops penetrating attempts at the core. It even helps your perimeter defenders. This is basic basketball logic. Like really basic. Thats one of the first things you learn when you play basketball, even at the lowest level.

You do realize that you gave no reason to backup your claim, right? You saying "the threat of a good rim protector stops penetrating attempts" doesn't make it a reality. Neither does saying "this is basic basketball logic." Why do you think it stops penetrating attempts? Explain your position. I've already explained mine (rim protectors don't prevent penetration since they are not the ones usually defending out on the perimeter. They are the 2nd line of defense to deal with offensive players that have already penetrated the paint).

you got chain of causality wrong there. sorry for not being more clear.
The main point is, you need, whatever team you have, elite rim protection, so be an elite team in the NBA. The teams that are in the finals show that.
Its easier to protect the rim in europe, because of the lack of the 3 seconds rule, which is why you can have a great inside d with a basic rim protector.
Its harder in the NBA to protect the rim, because of the 3 seconds rule, which is why you need an elite rim protector, if you want to have an overall elite defense.

You didn't provide a definition for "elite team," but considering you followed it up by "the teams that are in the finals show that" let's just assume "elite teams" are at least teams that make/win the finals. Fair to say?

• 2022-23: Denver won the finals and were 15th in defense, 30th in blocks, & 27th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2022-23: Miami made the finals and were 9th in defense, 30th in blocks, & 30th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2021-22: Golden State won the finals and were 2nd in defense, 18th in blocks, & 9th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2020-21: Phoenix made the finals and were 6th in defense, 25th in blocks, & 23rd in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2019-20: Miami made the finals and were 12th in defense, 21st in blocks, & 27th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2017-18: Cleveland made the finals and were 29th in defense, 28th in blocks, & 27th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2016-17: Cleveland made the finals and were 21st in defense, 25th in blocks, & 19th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2015-16: Cleveland won the finals and were 10th in defense, 26th in blocks, & 16th in opponents 0-6ft FG%

So considering all of those teams did not have "elite rim protection," by your own stated logic, you would also claim that 3 champions in the past 10 years and 5 runner ups in the past 10 years are not "elite teams." Do you see how quickly your argument falls apart with a light google search?

Again, there are multiple ways to build a winner and a competent defense.

So? It was enough for the Celtics, who lacked interiour defense. It wasnt against OKC.

Things like these are, why i think you didnt watch a game of the series. Horford is done, he not a defensive anchor anymore. Porzingis was a net negative, offensively and defensively, because of his illness, or whatever he still hast.
The only time they had inside d was Kornet.

That's the thing though. The Celtics didn't lack interior defense (and yes, I did watch the entire series). They always had a good defender/rim protector at C out there. Totally understand, Porzingis wasn't at his best, but if a big man is tired/sluggish, you don't say to yourself "hey, let me go challenge him at the rim now." You say "hey let me get him out in space and force him to move his feet."

And yes, Porzingis, Kornet, and even Horford are good defenders from the C spot...

Porzingis
D-VPM = 51st
D-DPM = 29th
D-LEBRON = 72nd
2Y D-RAPM = 220th
D-eRaptor = 144th
D-MAMBA = 61st
Average Rank = 96th

Kornet
D-VPM = 43rd
D-DPM = 15th
D-LEBRON = 24th
2Y D-RAPM = 133rd
D-eRaptor = 59th
D-MAMBA = 33rd
Average Rank = 51st

Horford
D-VPM = 48th
D-DPM = 57th
D-LEBRON = 51st
2Y D-RAPM = 49th
D-eRaptor = 75th
D-MAMBA = 158th
Average Rank = 73rd

And going by the numbers, they even tend to suggest that both Kornet and Horford are more impactful defensively (which is another counter to your Porzingis point).

There's also data from that series that shows that Boston held the Knicks to way less FGAs from 0-5ft than what they normally take...

NYK 0-5ft FGAs Per Game
Regular Season = 30.7
Playoff Series Against BOS = 23.7

But even with all of this evidence to defend BOS, you still chose not to address how a team who played 58% of its minutes without a good rim protector somehow won the series? And I sympathize with not wanting to answer that question because it throws a huge wrench in your argument.

And like you said, there are many things that needs to be done for a defense to be elite, but without elite rim protection, you cannot have an elite defense. And Kornet cant spearhead an elite inside d.

It depends on what you mean by "elite" in this statement. Does "elite" mean you're in the top 2 for rim protection? Top 5? Top 10? And does an elite defense need to be in the top 2? Top 5? Top 10? Let's get specific.

The other thing that I'll say to this point is that the focus should be on building an elite team not an elite defense. If Sabonis is on this roster, we'll likely never have an elite defense, but you certainly construct a roster that is good enough on defense and elite on offense making them an elite team overall.

I wrote that the season will show who is right, before you had to write an essay again.

How will the season show who is right? What question do you think this season is answering?

If that person is a good rim protector, then yes (don't tell me Len was one), the rim protection will be there, the defense could be good, if Sabonis runs like a mofo at the 4 on defense, which won't happen. This is why I am saying in like every answer: For Sabonis you need someone who can keep his back clean.
Almost every starting 4 will just run by him, almost every starting 5 will just score over him. You need someone like Mobley or Wemby, who is long enough to keep the ball out of the hands of a 5, and can protect the paint from penetration of the 4, that cant be defended by Domas.

No, you're misunderstanding. The question is about a backup C (which Robinson is for the Knicks). You seem to give the Knicks a pass despite their star C being a poor defender because they have a backup C that is a good rim protector.

If we were to replace Valanciunas with Robinson and have him play 20 mpg (meaning he'd share the floor with Sabonis for 6 minutes a game if Sabonis averages 34 mpg), would you now concede that our rim protection is good enough to be an elite team? Afterall, that's how the Knicks utilized Robinson and you seem to be on board with their defensive approach.

Again:

We will have to wait and see how the season goes. If you want to discuss further i can give you my discord or whatever, but we don't have to occupy the thread with this pointless discussion.
I hope this discussion will not be on your mind when the season is done, but if you want, you can get a moderator to pin my comment about Sabonis being impossible FOR US to build around, us ending as best as a first round exit, and us trading him for scraps, to get rid of the contract.

I'm sorry...what's the result of the season that somehow proves your point?

I very much acknowledge that the path we're headed down could lead to us trading Sabonis for a discount so not sure how this proves your point. I've mentioned countless times that we should trade him this offseason, but I think that's wishful thinking at best considering who our owner is.

I have very much acknowledged that the trade proposals I made don't guarantee us getting out of the 1st round (or even making the playoffs for that matter) so again, I'm not sure how this proves your point regarding our discord. The trades proposed help to address other roster issues like finding Sabonis' a great complement at PF (Washington) or bringing in someone who can play PG and be a POA defender (Holiday, Ball), but let's be clear...I don't see a Lavine/Sabonis duo leading us to playoff success.

I've been very clear that I think Sabonis has to at least be your 2nd best player on a playoff team and your 3rd best player on a contending team. I don't really see a good way of pushing Sabonis into that 2nd or 3rd best player role this season so I'm not overly optimistic about the upcoming season. However, LaVine is an expiring the following offseason and we do have all of our picks (and a couple more) intact. There is a chance that we could make a play to upgrade our star and push Sabonis at least to that 2nd best player role while already having the other roster issues addressed (long, athletic 3&D PF and PG).

If our roster ever gets to that point and we get don't have playoff success, then that lends credence to your POV.

 

[SacTownKid]

My speculation is that Keon doesn't always follow the defensive scheme. And I'd guess that the defensive scheme makes our perimeter defenders look bad, in order to aggressively defend our soft fluffy middle.

Browns scheme was all about this trendy deflections thing that is already starting to fade a bit. If Keon doesn't start really being able to handle screens and keeping his man from pushing him down or with the off hand like players did this season fans are going to start getting frustrated. Most fans haven't noticed it yet, but they will. He and Carter as a tandem however fit perfectly. Devin on POA and Keon in the passing lanes had IMMENSE potential. Devin can play passing lanes but he was trying to fit in and was taking his own strengths away when trying to fit the Brown vision defensively. Keon however is one of the best in the league anticipating the pass.

 

[KayDee55]

So because I disagree with you the options are 1.) I'm either dishonest or 2.) I don't watch basketball. Do you not understand how that's a discussion about the person and not the ideas itself? If you're confident in your ideas, let them stand by themselves and see if they can withstand scrutiny.



You do realize that you gave no reason to backup your claim, right? You saying "the threat of a good rim protector stops penetrating attempts" doesn't make it a reality. Neither does saying "this is basic basketball logic." Why do you think it stops penetrating attempts? Explain your position. I've already explained mine (rim protectors don't prevent penetration since they are not the ones usually defending out on the perimeter. They are the 2nd line of defense to deal with offensive players that have already penetrated the paint).



You didn't provide a definition for "elite team," but considering you followed it up by "the teams that are in the finals show that" let's just assume "elite teams" are at least teams that make/win the finals. Fair to say?

• 2022-23: Denver won the finals and were 15th in defense, 30th in blocks, & 27th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2022-23: Miami made the finals and were 9th in defense, 30th in blocks, & 30th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2021-22: Golden State won the finals and were 2nd in defense, 18th in blocks, & 9th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2020-21: Phoenix made the finals and were 6th in defense, 25th in blocks, & 23rd in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2019-20: Miami made the finals and were 12th in defense, 21st in blocks, & 27th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2017-18: Cleveland made the finals and were 29th in defense, 28th in blocks, & 27th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2016-17: Cleveland made the finals and were 21st in defense, 25th in blocks, & 19th in opponents 0-6ft FG%
• 2015-16: Cleveland won the finals and were 10th in defense, 26th in blocks, & 16th in opponents 0-6ft FG%

So considering all of those teams did not have "elite rim protection," by your own stated logic, you would also claim that 3 champions in the past 10 years and 5 runner ups in the past 10 years are not "elite teams." Do you see how quickly your argument falls apart with a light google search?

Again, there are multiple ways to build a winner and a competent defense.



That's the thing though. The Celtics didn't lack interior defense (and yes, I did watch the entire series). They always had a good defender/rim protector at C out there. Totally understand, Porzingis wasn't at his best, but if a big man is tired/sluggish, you don't say to yourself "hey, let me go challenge him at the rim now." You say "hey let me get him out in space and force him to move his feet."

And yes, Porzingis, Kornet, and even Horford are good defenders from the C spot...

Porzingis
D-VPM = 51st
D-DPM = 29th
D-LEBRON = 72nd
2Y D-RAPM = 220th
D-eRaptor = 144th
D-MAMBA = 61st
Average Rank = 96th

Kornet
D-VPM = 43rd
D-DPM = 15th
D-LEBRON = 24th
2Y D-RAPM = 133rd
D-eRaptor = 59th
D-MAMBA = 33rd
Average Rank = 51st

Horford
D-VPM = 48th
D-DPM = 57th
D-LEBRON = 51st
2Y D-RAPM = 49th
D-eRaptor = 75th
D-MAMBA = 158th
Average Rank = 73rd

And going by the numbers, they even tend to suggest that both Kornet and Horford are more impactful defensively (which is another counter to your Porzingis point).

There's also data from that series that shows that Boston held the Knicks to way less FGAs from 0-5ft than what they normally take...

NYK 0-5ft FGAs Per Game
Regular Season = 30.7
Playoff Series Against BOS = 23.7

But even with all of this evidence to defend BOS, you still chose not to address how a team who played 58% of its minutes without a good rim protector somehow won the series? And I sympathize with not wanting to answer that question because it throws a huge wrench in your argument.




It depends on what you mean by "elite" in this statement. Does "elite" mean you're in the top 2 for rim protection? Top 5? Top 10? And does an elite defense need to be in the top 2? Top 5? Top 10? Let's get specific.

The other thing that I'll say to this point is that the focus should be on building an elite team not an elite defense. If Sabonis is on this roster, we'll likely never have an elite defense, but you certainly construct a roster that is good enough on defense and elite on offense making them an elite team overall.



How will the season show who is right? What question do you think this season is answering?


No, you're misunderstanding. The question is about a backup C (which Robinson is for the Knicks). You seem to give the Knicks a pass despite their star C being a poor defender because they have a backup C that is a good rim protector.

If we were to replace Valanciunas with Robinson and have him play 20 mpg (meaning he'd share the floor with Sabonis for 6 minutes a game if Sabonis averages 34 mpg), would you now concede that our rim protection is good enough to be an elite team? Afterall, that's how the Knicks utilized Robinson and you seem to be on board with their defensive approach.



I'm sorry...what's the result of the season that somehow proves your point?

I very much acknowledge that the path we're headed down could lead to us trading Sabonis for a discount so not sure how this proves your point. I've mentioned countless times that we should trade him this offseason, but I think that's wishful thinking at best considering who our owner is.

I have very much acknowledged that the trade proposals I made don't guarantee us getting out of the 1st round (or even making the playoffs for that matter) so again, I'm not sure how this proves your point regarding our discord. The trades proposed help to address other roster issues like finding Sabonis' a great complement at PF (Washington) or bringing in someone who can play PG and be a POA defender (Holiday, Ball), but let's be clear...I don't see a Lavine/Sabonis duo leading us to playoff success.

I've been very clear that I think Sabonis has to at least be your 2nd best player on a playoff team and your 3rd best player on a contending team. I don't really see a good way of pushing Sabonis into that 2nd or 3rd best player role this season so I'm not overly optimistic about the upcoming season. However, LaVine is an expiring the following offseason and we do have all of our picks (and a couple more) intact. There is a chance that we could make a play to upgrade our star and push Sabonis at least to that 2nd best player role while already having the other roster issues addressed (long, athletic 3&D PF and PG).

If our roster ever gets to that point and we get don't have playoff success, then that lends credence to your POV.

Ok, most of this must really be trolling at this point.
What the season will prove? Are you even reading what i am writing at this point?
Most of what you write you either dont understand what i am saying or you twist my words.
I never said you are dishonest because you are disagreeing. I wrote out my point why i think you are either dishonest, or dont watch that many games, and you can read them again, i am not going to repeat myself.
And thats not even an attack, you literally could be watching not many games, only watch the game summaries and read stats. Thats totally cool, never an attack. Dont twist my words.

Why do i think a premier inside defender stops penetration at its core? Are you really asking that? Wtf?

"But even with all of this evidence to defend BOS, you still chose not to address how a team who played 58% of its minutes without a good rim protector somehow won the series? And I sympathize with not wanting to answer that question because it throws a huge wrench in your argument."
I can answer it with the simple fact that Boston lost the series. That is a fact. Or do i have to prove that, too?
Btw 42% of the game is more than enough to influence the game, and change the course of the game.
And yes, if we had Mitchell Robinson on the bench instead of Valanciunas, who cant defend a pigeon, our defense would be way better.

Nice stats, btw, you said yourself that Blocks are not a good way of evaluating a defense.
Not even the 0-6ft FG%. More interesting, and as a stathead i think you know it, you just chose to withhold it, would be the FG attempted from 0-6FG%
Another BTW, most of the teams you mentioned had LeBron, the best (or 2nd best) player in the whole effin history of the game.
There are special Players that will take their teams far, even if they have crapty teams, like LeBron had for example. I hope i don't have to explain this to you, a basketball fan further.
Even Jokic took crapty teams very far. Teams with these guys are the exception to the rule.
We don't have one of those guys, so for us the rule is the rule.

This season will prove, that whatever team the Kings put around Sabonis, we will not go far, Sabonis will eff up in every critical game, like he always did, and then he will demand a trade.
Then we will be the second team, for which he played an important role, that wants to trade him, because he didnt fit into our plans. But he will be older and on a far worse contract, and have demanded a trade, which is why we will get exactly bullcrap for him. Probably SA will get him for an unprotected SA first, which will be worth nothing.

And thats what you can pin wherever you want, and come back and see, that i, and all the analysts that are beginning talking about trading Domas (Vecenie, Zach Lowe, our own KC etc.) were right.
My whole point is: Trade him now and get the most value out of him. It will never be higher than now.
Try and to the same thing Indiana did, and get a young player. Try Shaedon Sharpe for example. Someone who is worth the gamble, who is way easier to build around.

What you dont see is, that we agree on a lot of things, you are, for whatever reason, butthurt that i dont agree with you on your obsessive love of stats and twist my words, and frame them as an attack on you. All good man.
Why you hev to be med, is just game.

 

[KayDee55]

Browns scheme was all about this trendy deflections thing that is already starting to fade a bit. If Keon doesn't start really being able to handle screens and keeping his man from pushing him down or with the off hand like players did this season fans are going to start getting frustrated. Most fans haven't noticed it yet, but they will. He and Carter as a tandem however fit perfectly. Devin on POA and Keon in the passing lanes had IMMENSE potential. Devin can play passing lanes but he was trying to fit in and was taking his own strengths away when trying to fit the Brown vision defensively. Keon however is one of the best in the league anticipating the pass.

I like the idea of Devin and Keon sharing the court together, that has the potential of being a defensive nightmare for our opponents. Problem is, both arent PGs. We need a ball handling distributor on the court with them. Thats kinda why Lonzo would be great for the team (minus the injury concerns of course), because length wise, we could play Keon, Devin and Lonzo together, without problems on defense and offense.

 

[twslam07]

Browns scheme was all about this trendy deflections thing that is already starting to fade a bit. If Keon doesn't start really being able to handle screens and keeping his man from pushing him down or with the off hand like players did this season fans are going to start getting frustrated. Most fans haven't noticed it yet, but they will. He and Carter as a tandem however fit perfectly. Devin on POA and Keon in the passing lanes had IMMENSE potential. Devin can play passing lanes but he was trying to fit in and was taking his own strengths away when trying to fit the Brown vision defensively. Keon however is one of the best in the league anticipating the pass.

I actually looked at the last 9 years of stats to see which defensive metrics were most correlated with defensive rating. Here is how deflections shook out on that list...

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I actually looked at the last 9 years of stats to see which defensive metrics were most correlated with defensive rating. Here is how deflections shook out on that list...

View attachment 13571

Highest correlation = opponent 3PT%

Huh.

 

[twslam07]

Why do i think a premier inside defender stops penetration at its core? Are you really asking that? Wtf?

Yes I am really asking that. Why do you think that? You have made a claim now I'm asking you to give the justification & reasoning as to how you arrived at that claim.

"But even with all of this evidence to defend BOS, you still chose not to address how a team who played 58% of its minutes without a good rim protector somehow won the series? And I sympathize with not wanting to answer that question because it throws a huge wrench in your argument."
I can answer it with the simple fact that Boston lost the series. That is a fact. Or do i have to prove that, too?
Btw 42% of the game is more than enough to influence the game, and change the course of the game.
And yes, if we had Mitchell Robinson on the bench instead of Valanciunas, who cant defend a pigeon, our defense would be way better.

Boston losing the series proves your point? Boston had rim protection on the floor for a much higher % of the minutes. You pointed to rim protection being the reason they lost but fail to recognize they had more rim protection throughout the series.

And if it's that's easy to build an elite defense (meaning just have your backup C be a great rim protector). Wouldn't it just be easier to acquire that backup C vs. moving off Sabonis? I don't think you actually believe that, but that's where your logic eventually leads.

Nice stats, btw, you said yourself that Blocks are not a good way of evaluating a defense.
Not even the 0-6ft FG%. More interesting, and as a stathead i think you know it, you just chose to withhold it, would be the FG attempted from 0-6FG%

Withhold what? Be more specific on what you’re referencing.

Correct. Blocks are not a good way of evaluating defense. However, you’ve been focused on rim protection. Things like blocks and opponent FG% close to the rim are relevant.

Another BTW, most of the teams you mentioned had LeBron, the best (or 2nd best) player in the whole effin history of the game.
There are special Players that will take their teams far, even if they have crapty teams, like LeBron had for example. I hope i don't have to explain this to you, a basketball fan further.
Even Jokic took crapty teams very far. Teams with these guys are the exception to the rule.
We don't have one of those guys, so for us the rule is the rule.

Ahhh yes the ole “you’ve negated my point so let me redefine my terms” response. Classic.

But even then, your redefined definition doesn’t explain the rest of the teams on the list. How do you plan to explain those away?

Lastly, I’m more than happy to broaden the dataset to include more examples. I took a very extreme approach as to how you defined an “elite team.” If you really think elite teams are only the 2 teams that make it to the finals, so be it. We still have the examples already cited. If not, I’m sure we’ll have some examples to add

This season will prove, that whatever team the Kings put around Sabonis, we will not go far, Sabonis will eff up in every critical game, like he always did, and then he will demand a trade.
Then we will be the second team, for which he played an important role, that wants to trade him, because he didnt fit into our plans. But he will be older and on a far worse contract, and have demanded a trade, which is why we will get exactly bullcrap for him. Probably SA will get him for an unprotected SA first, which will be worth nothing.

And thats what you can pin wherever you want, and come back and see, that i, and all the analysts that are beginning talking about trading Domas (Vecenie, Zach Lowe, our own KC etc.) were right.
My whole point is: Trade him now and get the most value out of him. It will never be higher than now.
Try and to the same thing Indiana did, and get a young player. Try Shaedon Sharpe for example. Someone who is worth the gamble, who is way easier to build around.

If I were calling the shots with full authority from Vivek, I don’t disagree with most of this. However, what I do disagree with is the part where you say “whatever team we put around Sabonis, we will not go far.” Really? “Whatever” team? You don’t think there is any fathomable roster that can be put around Sabonis that will allow us to go far? None? That’s where we disagree.

What you dont see is, that we agree on a lot of things, you are, for whatever reason, butthurt that i dont agree with you on your obsessive love of stats and twist my words, and frame them as an attack on you. All good man.
Why you hev to be med, is just game.

Oh no I see it. I’ve acknowledged it throughout our back & forth quite a few times in fact. What I take exception to is someone deviating from the arguing of ideas and concluding that the only reason they disagree with me is because they’re either dishonest or don’t watch basketball. Try to keep an open mind over there, fair?

 

[twslam07]

Highest correlation = opponent 3PT%

Huh.

Not a good stat to be 30th in…

(Looks up stats)

…crap…

 

[Section 101]

It’s almost pointless. Even presented with facts, logic and reasoning if it doesn’t fit the narrative they want to believe it falls on deaf ears.

ignore feature is your friend, He's been on it a long time.

 

[twslam07]

ignore feature is your friend, He's been on it a long time.

He/she just joined the site this year in May. You consider that a long time?

 

[twslam07]

I actually looked at the last 9 years of stats to see which defensive metrics were most correlated with defensive rating. Here is how deflections shook out on that list...

View attachment 13571

Looking at this a bit more closely, the 2nd chance points/defensive rebounding are sort of up there near the top. That probably helps explain why Sabonis gets decent ratings on advanced defensive impact stats. It was always sort of assumed that was the reason, but it’s interesting to see some data help support that hypothesis.

 

[SacTownKid]

I like the idea of Devin and Keon sharing the court together, that has the potential of being a defensive nightmare for our opponents. Problem is, both arent PGs. We need a ball handling distributor on the court with them. Thats kinda why Lonzo would be great for the team (minus the injury concerns of course), because length wise, we could play Keon, Devin and Lonzo together, without problems on defense and offense.

Still, PG's are largely based on being able to get into the paint off pick and roll and kicking back out to shooters. Look at the Thunder with SGA who is essentially their PG and is certainly mostly score first rather than pass first. I think Carter can easily get inside and kick out since the hardest part is having a decent first step. He's got one. Now it's repetition and handles. If you play them with LaVine as well it should be able to be just fine if Domas keeps up his playmaking ways.

 

[SacTownKid]

Looking at this a bit more closely, the 2nd chance points/defensive rebounding are sort of up there near the top. That probably helps explain why Sabonis gets decent ratings on advanced defensive impact stats. It was always sort of assumed that was the reason, but it’s interesting to see some data help support that hypothesis.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Yeah, and individual defensive ratings are flat out garbage sometimes. They have always boosted certain players high when you can see in a game that it doesn't necessarily correlate. If the NBA does end up going back to more physical, NBC style ball then watch FG% against suddenly be the only stat that does matter. Along with visual evidence. Defense is always a tough thing because we know first hand last season some of the good defensive games the Kings had was nothing more than the other team missing wide open shots.