Peja for Shawn Marion trade idea

#1
This is speculation, you've been warned:

With Artest's recent incident I don't think Petrie is going to be interested in picking him up. Petrie is a big believer in team chemistry, and you can be sure he knows Artest isn't a guy that's going to help in that area. This basically all but rules out any deal to get him in Sacramento in my eyes.

Why I like Shawn Marion to the Kings is he helps us in a lot of areas we need. Mainly that he's a terrific rebounder and a very good defensive player. He has good passing skills, can and does block shots and is one of the better athletes in the league. His points in Sacramento's system would come IN the system. Through tips, running the break and finishing at the bucket. In other words, I think Marion would be a splendid player in Sac's current system. He fits us like a glove, and helps us in one of the most glaring problems we've had over the last 5 seasons, rebounding.

The problems of course are big. One, Marion makes a good deal more money than Peja. Some where in the difference of 4 million. Ostertag is the player that would likely be thrown in to make up the difference if a deal was going to go through as his salary + Peja should work out in a deal for Shawn.

Secondly... the Kings would be trading Peja not only to a Western Conference team, but to a division rival no less, and one capable of meeting them in the playoffs. Trading a franchise-level player to a division rival is something that rarely happens in sports, because it usually comes back to haunt you.

Anyway, I wasn't always a huge fan of Marion's. His offensive game is limited. He's somewhat solid at creating shots for himself, and isn't great with his outside jumper. His defense is good, but could be considered to be overrated, as he's not in the same category as Doug Christie, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest.

Why I like Marion is simple though. He's an outstanding rebounder. He's athletic, he's young, he's a good lockeroom guy, he passes the rock, he blocks shots, he'll score in a variety of ways, and he's more than willing to play in a system.

I don't know how it would work out in the end, but I do know we'd lose a lot of our ability if we traded Peja to be a consistent threat from the outside. On the other hand, we'd gain what I mentioned above.

People think Doug's lack of outside shooting hurts us now, but it would be even more glaring if Peja wasn't on the team.

Anyway, some upside and downside to this deal, but by far it's the one I've liked the most and felt had the most chance of happening.

Throw your thoughts in.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#2
My only thought: It is EXTREMELY premature to be talking of trading Pedja.

If it were to become obvious we needed to trade him, however, I would NEVER want to see him go to another Western team. That's just not good sense, IMHO, and the one thing I would call a real deal-breaker.
 
#3
Marion seems to have his best games when we play him. He nullifies Peja's impact on the game, not through defense, but through abusing Peja on the drive. I'd put money down that if this trade were somehow accomplished (And it won't, as Phoenix is doing just fine with Marion) that we wouldn't have to worry about Peja making us regret losing him... at least not while we played Phoenix.
 

piksi

Hall of Famer
#4
Insomniacal Fan said:
Marion seems to have his best games when we play him. He nullifies Peja's impact on the game, not through defense, but through abusing Peja on the drive. I'd put money down that if this trade were somehow accomplished (And it won't, as Phoenix is doing just fine with Marion) that we wouldn't have to worry about Peja making us regret losing him... at least not while we played Phoenix.
I disagree.

last season

Kings 107-102 Pedja 36 -3- 5
Kings 113 - 93 Pedja 29 - 12 - 2
Kings 108 - 94 Pedja 32 - 7 -1
Sons 101 - 96 Pedja 19 - 7 - 3

Pedja just sucks at thee moment that is all
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#5
Marion playing well AGAINST us doesn't necessarily translate into him playing well FOR us, does it?

I'm not worried about how Marion plays as much as I'd be concerned about Pedja lighting it up against us. Talk about motivation?

...
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#6
I'm really not worried about Peja coming back to bite us. Setting aside the playoff struggles for a moment, he simply does not have the sort of forceful game that you can just up at will because you're feeling inspired. Basically he just needs to shoot well, and you can't make more shots just by trying harder.
Nor actually do I consider him a franchise player -- too limited. But he's still better than Marion, and just as critically can be a team's #1 offensive weapon on most nights (he has a well known Achilles heel now, but not everybody has the personnel to take advantage of it). As Webber ages a huge question for the Kings is going to be whether they can find a #1 option to take his place, and Marion isn't it (Peja lacks the all around skills, but he can carry the offensive load).

Marion could patch a number of holes for us, but without Peja it would become absolutely imperative that Webb did not get hurt. In any case, as I mentioned in another thread, with the Suns going so well right now its not at all clear marion is on the market. With Nash/Richardson/Johnson (the latter two when they're hot) they've got enough shooters, but are shy of inside players.

P.S. Marion can play well in any system -- much of what he does well (rebound, defend) does not depend on a system or teammates.
 
#7
Bricklayer said:
With Nash/Richardson/Johnson (the latter two when they're hot) they've got enough shooters, but are shy of inside players.
I can promise you the Suns GM is not counting on Johnson and Richardson to consistently hit their outside shots. Both have consistently been below-average shooters for their career.

And the Suns aren't going all that great. They lost to the Cavs the other day and their wins have come against, to be polite, less-than-stellar ball clubs.

Hawks, Sixers, Nets and Bulls aren't going to be competing for much this season, and those are the squads the Suns beat.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#9
Andriod_KiNg said:
No.. not in the same division, thats suicide.
How so exactly? This ain't Shaq we're talking about. What's Peja going to do? Wake up one morning against us and decide he's going to be hot that night and hit all his shots?

If I was trading Artest I would not want to trade him in division -- his game is predicated on effort anf he might even go off and hurt somebody. That's not Peja's M.O. even if he were somehow to decide he wanted "revenge" after forcing his way out of town.
 
#10
Bricklayer said:
How so exactly? This ain't Shaq we're talking about. What's Peja going to do? Wake up one morning against us and decide he's going to be hot that night and hit all his shots?

If I was trading Artest I would not want to trade him in division -- his game is predicated on effort anf he might even go off and hurt somebody. That's not Peja's M.O. even if he were somehow to decide he wanted "revenge" after forcing his way out of town.
O comeon when this guy is trying noone can cover him, he wont be a threat to us by just playing us but he will help the suns win games, which will make it bad agianst for us, at this point we know he isnt even trying , i wouldnt want to take the chance for him to start doing good on the Suns, and at his age we mite be seeing him for a while if we do trade him to the suns.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#11
Andriod_KiNg said:
O comeon when this guy is trying noone can cover him
*ahem* might want to send that memo off to Hassel and Bowen. ;)

I'm not scared of Peja. Lots of great players out there. Great weapon, but is he a "I'm going to beat you myself" player? No. Needs his teammates. A physical/effort force? No. Is he a great clutch player? Again no. A great playoff performer? Nope. He's just got none of the traits that would particualrly worry you if he was in division. As long as you take as much talent from the team you trade him to as you are giving them, there is no particular problem.
 
#12
Bricklayer said:
Is he a great clutch player? Again no. A great playoff performer? Nope.
You bring up a pretty good point. When we've needed Peja in the past, he's sucked in basically 90% of the big games he's played. Peja playing against his former team (if this trade went through), he'd probably try to do what he usually does for us in big games and go 2 for 14 FGs and miss free throws that would seal the victory. :p
 
#13
Bricklayer said:
*ahem* might want to send that memo off to Hassel and Bowen. ;)

I'm not scared of Peja. Lots of great players out there. Great weapon, but is he a "I'm going to beat you myself" player? No. Needs his teammates. A physical/effort force? No. Is he a great clutch player? Again no. A great playoff performer? Nope. He's just got none of the traits that would particualrly worry you if he was in division. As long as you take as much talent from the team you trade him to as you are giving them, there is no particular problem.
GM's are usually reluctant to trade within division and/or conference for fear of improving the opponent not for fear of getting "torched" in 3-4 games a year. True for any major sport.

Besides, it happens all the time that players mature and acquire new skills after they've been traded to their 2nd or 3rd team. Here in Chicago I saw "onedimensional" player after player leave Cubs, White Sox, Bulls and Bears to go on to bigger and better things and fulfill their potetntial once they leave. In case of BBall think Miller and Artest for Jalen Rose.

If you trade Peja (and I am not completely against idea) you trade him in a package with a bad but soon to expire contract (kings don't have them) in order to get one superstar caliber player or 2 players plus draft picks from desperate teams like Atlanta or Bulls and you start rebuilding. But only if by New Year you see no improvement in this team. He's not exactly are cancer or a nut that you would have to move before the rest of the league figures out that he is gone Artest.
 
2

2muchgame

Guest
#14
Marion-ette

The Kings would love Shawn Marion in terms of what he brings talent-wise to the game. He is another player that makes a whole lot of money, yet his downside is greater than his upside at his current dollar amount. We already have players who make a ton of money and have proven that when called upon, they either can't or don't lead. Any guesses?

His numbers are very impressive, but he doesn't shoot well. He lacks playoff experience and doesn't have a "dagger mentality," meaning he is very laid back and quiet, almost to a fault. Actually to be honest, he isn't a very intelligent person and leaders are almost always intelligent. The Kings need a lot of things and Marion would look great in the royal Kings colors for his athleticism and overall skills on defense, but it isn't to be.

The quandry the Kings are in right now is mostly mental and emotional. Emotionally they have not gelled and that is getting in their heads. They doubt each other and the doubt themselves. Physically, they still don't bang, rebound, block shots or take charges, but what else is new? Once they start making shots, the mental quandry will diminish, emotionally they will gel and so we are back to the same thing we have been dealing with for the past few years......they lack the heart to battle each night on the defensive end and take games away from other teams. Leadership.....Marion isn't the answer to what they need most.
 
#15
Marion is solid. I wouldn't do it. He plays good defense, scores, pulls rebounds for the Suns. Plus, he's tough mentally. It would be a horrible trade especially since the Suns are actually playing well.
 
#16
Someone said that Adelman is a big chemistry guy...if that were the case then Vlade would still be with the Kings. History evidences the fact that off court or locker room chemistry is not what it is cracked up to be. With the Lakers of the 80's Kareem was not exactly everyone's friend; Celtics of the 80's-Bird and McHale didn't like each other that much; Jordan's Bulls-Too many personal problems to list and Shaq and Kobe of the Lakers of the 00's.
 
#17
Diabeticwonder said:
Someone said that Adelman is a big chemistry guy...if that were the case then Vlade would still be with the Kings. History evidences the fact that off court or locker room chemistry is not what it is cracked up to be. With the Lakers of the 80's Kareem was not exactly everyone's friend; Celtics of the 80's-Bird and McHale didn't like each other that much; Jordan's Bulls-Too many personal problems to list and Shaq and Kobe of the Lakers of the 00's.
All the players you just mentioned were incredible. None of the Kings are at that level. Webber was when he first got here and he bitched and moaned the whole time. The Kings have to like each other, because if they didn't they would get nothing done.
 
#18
I agree with Lamar...the Suns are killing teams right now, why shake things up?

However Phoenix has made it known that resigning Amare is their #1 priority, so moving Marion seems like the best way to make room for that. Also, Joe Johnson has played well enough to demand some serious jack at the end of the season, so I don't know how they can keep him & QRich AND eventually sign Amare.

If the Kings did put a package together it might be Peja & DC for Marion and Johnson. the perimeter game we lose from Peja is replaced by Johnson & we get a tough inside player at the three in Marion. The Suns get one of the best perimeter players in the game in Stojakovic & a more than solid veteran in Christie. Also, DC's contract expires at the same time as Amare's, so that would be about $8 million coming off the books.

Unfortunately, the best time for this trade for Phoenix might be after this year. As I said, why shake things up? Things are rolling for the Suns right now & I can't see them worrying about this stuff until either they come back down to earth or the end of the season when resigning Amare becomes more pressing.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#19
WalMatt23 said:
I agree with Lamar...the Suns are killing teams right now, why shake things up?

However Phoenix has made it known that resigning Amare is their #1 priority, so moving Marion seems like the best way to make room for that. Also, Joe Johnson has played well enough to demand some serious jack at the end of the season, so I don't know how they can keep him & QRich AND eventually sign Amare.

If the Kings did put a package together it might be Peja & DC for Marion and Johnson. the perimeter game we lose from Peja is replaced by Johnson & we get a tough inside player at the three in Marion. The Suns get one of the best perimeter players in the game in Stojakovic & a more than solid veteran in Christie. Also, DC's contract expires at the same time as Amare's, so that would be about $8 million coming off the books.

Unfortunately, the best time for this trade for Phoenix might be after this year. As I said, why shake things up? Things are rolling for the Suns right now & I can't see them worrying about this stuff until either they come back down to earth or the end of the season when resigning Amare becomes more pressing.
I mentioned in another thread that I like dthe Peja and DC for Marion and Johnson idea before the season started -- 2 young studs for 1. But with the Suns off to the quick start, just no way I can see it happening now. And actually Phoenix would have to be stupid for it to ever happen at any point. (think we would really miss Doug's leadership btw -- it would be amove for the future, not winning today).
 
#20
Interesting, so now that Artest is out of the question, Marion is a new target :)

From what I remember Pedja gets better of Marion most of the time when the two play against each other, and he was clearly better of the two in the 1st round of PLAYOFFS a few years ago, so I'm not sure that an argument as Marion being a clutch or playoffs perfomer can be made either... But OK, Marion is probably a better choice for the Kings than Artest because he would help improve both defense and (more importantly) rebounding! However, with Marion on the team the Kings have a total of 1 (one) shooter, and that's the Bibby at the point. That just doesn't sound like it would be any sort of major improvement in the overall picture, if it would be an improvement at all.

And another note about Pedja. Sure, his outside shot is not falling as last year, but he used to get a good number of layups off of cuts and fastbreaks. I think it is those numbers that are actually affecting both his FG% and PPG stats. And that is purely because of effort. He really seems to be in OK condition to me, so his legs shouldn't be a problem for the shots, it's the shot selection. You can't just forget how to shoot in a couple of months ...
 
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#21
VF21 said:
Marion playing well AGAINST us doesn't necessarily translate into him playing well FOR us, does it?

I'm not worried about how Marion plays as much as I'd be concerned about Pedja lighting it up against us. Talk about motivation?

...
My point was not that Marion plays well against us. It was that Marion plays well against Peja. Over the past two years, he's had 3 27+ point games against us, 4 games where he scored pretty close to his average, and one game where he only managed 8 points. He also averages 10 rebounds a game, which looks mighty tasty after seeing Brad being abused after the Sonics game.

I agree, Marion cannot guard Peja and shut him down individually. Marion is 6'7". Peja had 3 inches on him, and was the go-to guy for a team that likes to score a lot of points.

What I like about Marion is is long term potential, which is precisely why we will never pry him away from the suns unless they hire Danny Ainge as their GM. (Speaking of which, we'll never get Paul Pierce either... darn)
 
#22
There was a rumor in Phoenix that the Suns offered Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion for Doug Christie and Peja. Marion isn't exactly a high commodity in Phoenix oddly enough. They already have a lot of what he brings to the table, and they quite simply need outside shooting. Plus, Marion makes A LOT of money.

The Suns would probably fall over themselves sending Marion off for Peja. Peja is the type of player they'd REALLY like to couple with Amare Stoudemire. Since Marion and Amare kind of have similar games, they're not really able to play off of each other as well as liked, and Peja is a much better scorer than Marion.

The Suns have two guys that are good shooters. Nash and Casey Jacobsen. They'd like to add another.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#23
Catalyst said:
There was a rumor in Phoenix that the Suns offered Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion for Doug Christie and Peja. Marion isn't exactly a high commodity in Phoenix oddly enough. They already have a lot of what he brings to the table, and they quite simply need outside shooting. Plus, Marion makes A LOT of money.

The Suns would probably fall over themselves sending Marion off for Peja. Peja is the type of player they'd REALLY like to couple with Amare Stoudemire. Since Marion and Amare kind of have similar games, they're not really able to play off of each other as well as liked, and Peja is a much better scorer than Marion.

The Suns have two guys that are good shooters. Nash and Casey Jacobsen. They'd like to add another.
WHEN did they offer that deal (Johnson/Marion)? That was mentioned here over the summer -- maybe by you? ;)

Anyway, that one always intrigued me -- for us it means 4 young talented borderline All-Star type starters for years to come -- Marion helps the rebounding/defense problems, and Johnson has shown the all around skills we'd ned fom an OG (good passer). Problem is just that 4 young starters, and one aging superstar still don't get it done unless said aging superstar is able to hang on and raise his game. Peja always left open the possibility that we might have two guys who could take their games to the next level and be that stud for us.

But I still do not see why Phoenix would take it -- my only excuse this summer is that they would then have a true #1 option. But they'd also be down to one rebounder/defender up front, and would break up their young athletic well matched core. Even if Nash made Peja into a 25ppg scorer (and he might), they'd still be getting killed on the boards and inside.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#25
Catalyst said:
Nice insult. But no, it was mentioned on RealGM.com.
Not sure where you get insult out of that, but whatever.

Somebody raised that possibility over the summer, and the old database is dead. Seemed logical it might have been you.

And the question stands -- when did that come up? If it was over the summer it might very well be moot with things gelling for Phoenix. If it came up yesterday in response to the stories about Peja, then it is a very interesting idea.
 
#26
Bricklayer said:
Not sure where you get insult out of that, but whatever.

Somebody raised that possibility over the summer, and the old database is dead. Seemed logical it might have been you.

And the question stands -- when did that come up? If it was over the summer it might very well be moot with things gelling for Phoenix. If it came up yesterday in response to the stories about Peja, then it is a very interesting idea.
It came up during the Summer.