Our Offense

[Sac.1989]

Reflections from preseason and the past few games:

• were a shooting team who doesnt attack the paint enough. The problem is only compounded by the fact that our bigs - Boogie, JT and JJ prefer to shoot midrangers rather than attack the basket. Boogie is raw and showcased his ability to dominate under the basket in periods v the lakers and will get better but it is an issue for us.

• Were very much a team geared towards our guards who shoot or drive and kick it out for someone else to shoot. When our offense stalls and shots stop falling we stop moving the ball and individual play takes over. Marcus saved us v the lakers and attempted the same v portland but its not sustainable at all

• Our offense seems to lead our defense when it should be the other way around. Its a problem with many young teams - when times are good all the efforts there when were struggling the want to push hard on defense goes out the window. Chuck is a great leader but we dont have anyone who really rallys the troops when were down. Isaiah thomas of all people was hollering at our players in the 4th v portland attempting to draw some sort of emotional response from our players.

• Whilst this doesnt belong here given the title of this thread the improvement in Cousins game defensively is a real plus side. His shot blocking, defence - in particular his ability to draw charges, has really improved. He seems focused going into the season and we really need him considering our deficiencies in the middle

Its obviously early on in the season but ive noticed a few similar sentiments being shared around hence why i started this thread.

Lets leave PW and his rotations out of it and focus purely on how our offense is shaping up, the systems were using and tactically what we feel is the right way forward.

The aim here is to have a constructive conversation and not slam PW, GP or the players but to critique the offensive schemes were building on

 

[SacTownKid]

Reflections from preseason and the past few games:

• were a shooting team who doesnt attack the paint enough. The problem is only compounded by the fact that our bigs - Boogie, JT and JJ prefer to shoot midrangers rather than attack the basket. Boogie is raw and showcased his ability to dominate under the basket in periods v the lakers and will get better but it is an issue for us.

• Were very much a team geared towards our guards who shoot or drive and kick it out for someone else to shoot. When our offense stalls and shots stop falling we stop moving the ball and individual play takes over. Marcus saved us v the lakers and attempted the same v portland but its not sustainable at all

• Our offense seems to lead our defense when it should be the other way around. Its a problem with many young teams - when times are good all the efforts there when were struggling the want to push hard on defense goes out the window. Chuck is a great leader but we dont have anyone who really rallys the troops when were down. Isaiah thomas of all people was hollering at our players in the 4th v portland attempting to draw some sort of emotional response from our players.

• Whilst this doesnt belong here given the title of this thread the improvement in Cousins game defensively is a real plus side. His shot blocking, defence - in particular his ability to draw charges, has really improved. He seems focused going into the season and we really need him considering our deficiencies in the middle

Its obviously early on in the season but ive noticed a few similar sentiments being shared around hence why i started this thread.

Lets leave PW and his rotations out of it and focus purely on how our offense is shaping up, the systems were using and tactically what we feel is the right way forward.

The aim here is to have a constructive conversation and not slam PW, GP or the players but to critique the offensive schemes were building on

You can't leave rotations out of a conversation like this. It has a direct and calculable reflection as to how a team runs. I don't know any good team that runs 12 deep and plays it's bench more than it's starters. I just don't.

They said they were going to use an offense that made use of DMC and Hayes passing ability. Really? Could have fooled me. Hayes had a better a/t ratio than anyone of the Kings players last year, he can do it but there has to be some type of idea of how to implement it.

 

[ParniValjak]

The offence is not set to utilise our best 3 scoring options. It is a take your turn offence. Rotations definitely come into it because because minutes and set rotations have a direct impact on the way your offence is run. If you keep pulling rotations out of the backside, then the offence will not run smoothly either.

Like I said in another thread, this roster is potent offensively but their talents are not best utilised by the "offence" that we are running. There is also a clear lack of set plays that we call. Its just a matter of taking your turn.

 

[Sac.1989]

I agree but im trying to get away from the whole PW loves Jimmer and Thomas too much which inevitably will be brought up and more so this is the X's and O's of how we seem to be playing and our style of offense and this is how i feel.

The dot points are my take on how things are evolving and my concerns in this regard

 

[swisshh]

1-Reke, 2-Thornton, 3-Salmons, 4-Hayes, 5-DMC, X-Basket

________X__________(3b)
_____5b________(1)__1
____________(4)_____
_______4___________
_(2)________(5a)______2
_________3a(2)__________

That's an awful diagram, but that's roughly the positions I'd like to see the starters. We don't have great entry passers. Hayes making the entry pass to DMC would clear his big out of the way. Since Hayes isn't an offensive threat, they may sag off him, but you can have Chuck screen off-ball for Thonton and be in the "fill the lane" spot afterwards. The problem is it's really hard to figure out what the hell to do with Reke when he doesn't have the ball. He's best at the wings. I don't like him up top in any situation as that is the position that tends to lead him towards clock killing and forced shots. You could begin with the ball in Reke's hand on the wing and have DMC slide down after off-ball screening for Thornton. I have Salmons up top because he may be better at that spot than Reke. If none of it makes much sense, then that is sort of a testament to the roster not making sense. I am trying to get the team's PF to be the post feeder simply due to the other 3 guys being bad passers.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

that diagram makes more sense then our offense!

 

[IfAt1st]

Other than drive-and-kick, I seriously have no idea what offensive system the Kings are trying to run, regardless of what players are on the floor.

The biggest problem with the Kings "offense", is that it completely breaks down when any competent team applies pressure.
They have NO CLUE how to react when the defense is slapping their hands, overplaying the passes, denying cutters, etc.
They don't have any way of breaking through that pressure.
If Tyreke was who people think he is, he should be able to isolate and get past his man to make a play - but he can't.
If DMC was who people think he is, he'd be able to get the ball in the post, make his move and make a play or pass to an open man for the play - but he might do this 15% of the time, which isn't enough to win a game or reliably go to.

Isiah Thomas is one of the only guys who is fast enough to get through pressure defenses, but he hasn't made the plays yet.

Noone wants to admit it, but Beno could and did get through these kinds of defenses when they happened, and would high-% make the layup or pullup and hit the foulline jumper.

The coaching has been unable or unwilling to implement pick-and-rolls nor screens - proven NBA offensive systems that are reliable against good NBA defenses.

 

[GoodOldDouwe]

bballSource BBALLBREAKDOWN

@DouwevanVeen Well, I interviewed Westphal last summer, and it didn't seem like he had a system, which leads to bad shots by Reke et al
1 hour ago

Coach Nick from Bballbreakdown answered this to my question about the Kings' offense. He hasn't seen full games though.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I know the OP said leave out PW, but I really can't. This just proves to me what we already know; PW is not the coach for this team, or any other team for that matter. There is no semblance of any offense and it is embarrassing. What it consists of is guys just take turns going 1 on 1, bailing out the opposing defense by taking all outside jumpers all the while incorporating no ball movement what so ever. I guess he can’t even teach these guys to run a simple pick and roll effectively. And don’t get me started on his stupid small ball crap. I wonder when it was last night that he realized that an undersized Jimmer/Thomas backcourt was not working and that Jimmer could not guard Batum?? My guess is never. What a joke. I guess he also wasn’t paying attention to the fact that Salmons couldn’t guard Wallace and was getting physically overmatched. That maybe Green would have been a good option off the bench just for the simple fact that he could match up with him physically. This is not an overreaction due to one loss, I have always felt this way about PW. Didn’t want him when we hired him then and don’t want him now. We have a young team on the cusp and all this guy is doing is teaching them bad habits and stunting their growth. I didn’t expect a lot this year, but at least some semblance of an offense would be nice. I would rather have Don Nelson coaching, at least he can run small ball somewhat effectively. The fact that Adelman is now in MIN burns me up even more. Just fire this guy and let Smart take over and let’s move forward. Say what you want about Smart, but at least he teaches the young guys fundamentals. PW has done nothing but make teams worse. He inherited an All Star/Veteran laden PHX team with 2 futures HOF’ers on it then managed to make them markedly worse after their finals appearance. He took over a very talented SEA team and did the same. And should we even get into what he did at Pepperdine? Last night was so embarrassing and a microcosm of everything that is wrong with PW coaching this team. And that is my rant for the season.

Edit: I should have put this in the PW is a nut thread. Can a mod move it please, if it needs to be?

 

[Italics]

I agree but im trying to get away from the whole PW loves Jimmer and Thomas too much which inevitably will be brought up and more so this is the X's and O's of how we seem to be playing and our style of offense and this is how i feel.

The dot points are my take on how things are evolving and my concerns in this regard

The problem isn't that PW loves Jimmer and Thomas... it's that he loves having them out on the floor at the same time.

Granted, every time Jimmer comes out the announcers call it a "defensive" move, yet Jimmer's +/- was 1st or 2nd best on the team in game 1, and 1st best in game 2. Not that +/- means everything (wink wink Jwill), but I think it's telling. I'd rather be running an offense and have one less amazing defensive player, than not running any offense and have a slight upgrade on perimeter defense.

 

[Larry89]

jimmer/thorton and dmc pick and roll, if tyreke is being guarded by point guards just let him do a quick flex cut or backdoor cut with the help of a chuck hayes screen i have not seen them do this once yet

 

[bajaden]

Other than drive-and-kick, I seriously have no idea what offensive system the Kings are trying to run, regardless of what players are on the floor.

The biggest problem with the Kings "offense", is that it completely breaks down when any competent team applies pressure.
They have NO CLUE how to react when the defense is slapping their hands, overplaying the passes, denying cutters, etc.
They don't have any way of breaking through that pressure.
If Tyreke was who people think he is, he should be able to isolate and get past his man to make a play - but he can't.
If DMC was who people think he is, he'd be able to get the ball in the post, make his move and make a play or pass to an open man for the play - but he might do this 15% of the time, which isn't enough to win a game or reliably go to.

Isiah Thomas is one of the only guys who is fast enough to get through pressure defenses, but he hasn't made the plays yet.

Noone wants to admit it, but Beno could and did get through these kinds of defenses when they happened, and would high-% make the layup or pullup and hit the foulline jumper.

The coaching has been unable or unwilling to implement pick-and-rolls nor screens - proven NBA offensive systems that are reliable against good NBA defenses.

Judging from quotes from Petrie, I assume they're trying to run some variation of the Princeton offense. Some type of motion offense. Which requires a big man that can pass the ball and shoot the ball in high post (aka Webber) and also requires the players without the ball to be in motion. Which they're not. Now I've seen both Thomas and Jimmer penetrate into the key. Thats all well and good, but its worthless unless someone cuts to the basket, which for the most part, no one has. I saw Jimmer and Cousins run a very nice pick and roll with Cousins recieving a nice bounce pass from Jimmer. He didn't make the basket, but he went to the line. Did I see that play run again? No! Thats a play I'd run down their throat.

There's a lot of potential on this team, but to utilitize it, requires a coach who installs some dicipline. I don't think we have that coach. Now on to Beno. I like Beno, but lets be honest, when we faced at team that played tough defense, all too often Beno disappeared. If there was a knock on Beno, other than being critical of his defense, it was that he was inconsistent. He could give you ten assists one night, and give you two the next. He could score 25 points on 12 shots one night, and give you 4 points the next. But when he was on one of his rolls, he was fun to watch. His biggest flaw offensively was he just didn't like to shoot the three. Strange, because he did shoot a good percentage from there. But players are strange. How many times did Brad Miller pass up a wide open shot from the top of the key, and drive into traffic for a harder, contested shot?

 

[SacTownKid]

1-Reke, 2-Thornton, 3-Salmons, 4-Hayes, 5-DMC, X-Basket

________X__________(3b)
_____5b________(1)__1
____________(4)_____
_______4___________
_(2)________(5a)______2
_________3a(2)__________

That's an awful diagram, but that's roughly the positions I'd like to see the starters. We don't have great entry passers. Hayes making the entry pass to DMC would clear his big out of the way. Since Hayes isn't an offensive threat, they may sag off him, but you can have Chuck screen off-ball for Thonton and be in the "fill the lane" spot afterwards. The problem is it's really hard to figure out what the hell to do with Reke when he doesn't have the ball. He's best at the wings. I don't like him up top in any situation as that is the position that tends to lead him towards clock killing and forced shots. You could begin with the ball in Reke's hand on the wing and have DMC slide down after off-ball screening for Thornton. I have Salmons up top because he may be better at that spot than Reke. If none of it makes much sense, then that is sort of a testament to the roster not making sense. I am trying to get the team's PF to be the post feeder simply due to the other 3 guys being bad passers.

It's easy, you run screens for Evans and get him open cutting to the rim. Hayes is fine up top and Rick Adelman made a relatively untalented team very competitive with it last year. Go look at Chuck's stats from the end of last year and tell me he can't be used as a facilitator up top. You have to have someone to pass to however.

How many roster changes does this team need before it's pretty dang clear it's not the players? These same problems exist with a completely new set of individuals. C'mon now.

I like the idea of using Hayes as a post feeder, and I've heard Rockets fans talk about his ability to work off the ball and cut to the rim, play him off of Demarcus as well, he's a pretty decent finisher around the rim despite his size.

Man, why are WE trying to put Westphals offense together??

 

[Larry89]

It's easy, you run screens for Evans and get him open cutting to the rim. Hayes is fine up top and Rick Adelman made a relatively untalented team very competitive with it last year. Go look at Chuck's stats from the end of last year and tell me he can't be used as a facilitator up top. You have to have someone to pass to however.

How many roster changes does this team need before it's pretty dang clear it's not the players? These same problems exist with a completely new set of individuals. C'mon now.

I like the idea of using Hayes as a post feeder, and I've heard Rockets fans talk about his ability to work off the ball and cut to the rim, play him off of Demarcus as well, he's a pretty decent finisher around the rim despite his size.

Man, why are WE trying to put Westphals offense together??

Westphal can hire kingsfans.com as a offensive coach, we'll all just split the 1M between us all and have a grade A offense.. BRILLIANT!!

 

[Lockehead]

It's easy, you run screens for Evans and get him open cutting to the rim. Hayes is fine up top and Rick Adelman made a relatively untalented team very competitive with it last year. Go look at Chuck's stats from the end of last year and tell me he can't be used as a facilitator up top. You have to have someone to pass to however.

How many roster changes does this team need before it's pretty dang clear it's not the players? These same problems exist with a completely new set of individuals. C'mon now.

I like the idea of using Hayes as a post feeder, and I've heard Rockets fans talk about his ability to work off the ball and cut to the rim, play him off of Demarcus as well, he's a pretty decent finisher around the rim despite his size.

Man, why are WE trying to put Westphals offense together??

It doesnt even look like Reke knows what a pick and roll is. Ive seen Jimmer play it a couple times. Thornton doesnt run the play but he uses the screen to split the defense and cut to the basket and sometimes passes out of it. Ive seen Jimmer try doing backdoor cuts. But other than that, our guards seem to prefer standing around the perimeter and wait for their chance to get the ball to go do one on one plays. Not sure if thats more of WP's fault, or the players'.

 

[SacTownKid]

It doesnt even look like Reke knows what a pick and roll is. Ive seen Jimmer play it a couple times. Thornton doesnt run the play but he uses the screen to split the defense and cut to the basket and sometimes passes out of it. Ive seen Jimmer try doing backdoor cuts. But other than that, our guards seem to prefer standing around the perimeter and wait for their chance to get the ball to go do one on one plays. Not sure if thats more of WP's fault, or the players'.

Well, honestly, with this personnel the pick and roll shouldn't really be it's focus. Most of the players on this team could be utilized in a princeton type of set, however, it doesn't have the strong finishing bigs nor the passing guards to run a truly dominant pick and roll. It's why I thought Westphal going to more of a passing/motion offense was the smartest thing to do and it's why it worked at the end of the season last year. Either Petrie has no concerns for the types of players Westphal can use or Westphal doesn't understand how to get all he can out of the talent he as available to him.

 

[SacTownKid]

bballSource BBALLBREAKDOWN

@DouwevanVeen Well, I interviewed Westphal last summer, and it didn't seem like he had a system, which leads to bad shots by Reke et al
1 hour ago

Coach Nick from Bballbreakdown answered this to my question about the Kings' offense. He hasn't seen full games though.

Ugh, and his interview in the Bee sounds like he's continuing on in that direction yet still talks about plays and brings up counters and such. When your first option is garbage there is NO COUNTER! He's not running an offensive set right now that has any potential counter. He's running a reset offense. When they can't get anywhere with the guards trying to make a play at the rim or run off screens up high, they are forced to reset. A reset offense is not a counter offense. He's needs to tweek the first play and start running the offense he said he was going to run. They said they were running things through Demarcus down low to start camp, but so far it's been nothing but iso for whoever gets the ball in the post.

 

[swisshh]

It's easy, you run screens for Evans and get him open cutting to the rim. Hayes is fine up top and Rick Adelman made a relatively untalented team very competitive with it last year. Go look at Chuck's stats from the end of last year and tell me he can't be used as a facilitator up top. You have to have someone to pass to however.

How many roster changes does this team need before it's pretty dang clear it's not the players? These same problems exist with a completely new set of individuals. C'mon now.

I like the idea of using Hayes as a post feeder, and I've heard Rockets fans talk about his ability to work off the ball and cut to the rim, play him off of Demarcus as well, he's a pretty decent finisher around the rim despite his size.

Man, why are WE trying to put Westphals offense together??

Yeah, I have Chuck and Reke close together in one part of the diagram with the idea of a screen for Reke and then him curling off the screen towards the basket. This also requires Reke to have more off-the-ball awareness. I think any good set with the Kings starters features Hayes around the free throw line to begin with, setting screens and making entry passes to DMC or cutters.

 

[mac]

IMO we have a few major problems that I have observed.

1) Over-reliance on outside shooting. There's a reason why the Phoenix Suns, Orlando Magic didn't win championships based on shooting. It is even worse when you've got a shorter packed season and guys are less fresh. We all saw the difference in Marcus Thornton and Evans' shooting between the Lakers and Blazers game. That's what physical and mental fatigue will do to you. It's far easier to make an easy layup or shot nearer the basket off of good planned offense than it is spotting up for 3 pointers repeatedly.

2) Horrible screens. Seriously I rarely see opponents get caught in any of our screens, even when we try to use them to get guys free. How many times have you watched Thornton/ Evans have to go out way beyond the 3 point line just to get the ball? It's difficult for anyone to run an offense or getp ast the defense when they have to go further from the basket to get the ball. I thought bringing in Chuck Hayes would hopefully solve this proble, but so far it hasn't.

3) Guys stop dribbling prematurely. I know that Tyreke, John are criticized for dribbling the ball and not moving it enough, but it's just as bad as stopping the dribble but standing there and not moving the ball. I've seen our guys pick up their dribbles and wait a good 4 seconds just to see who's open for a pass. You shouldn't have to pick up the ball and then look around to pass the ball. If no one is open why did you even pick up your dribble? And again, this goes hand in hand with the point about screens/ getting guys free. We have our bigs picking up the ball just inside the 3 point line, and then holding it for 4 seconds, then passing it to a guard who has to come running outside the 3 point line so that the big can just hand it off. By then we have 7 seconds on the shotclock and are forced into an ISO situation.

I'm disappointed that in 2 games we haven't seen any backdoor cuts with Cousins getting the ball to the cutter. It was a significant part of our offense last year, where we used either Beno or Tyreke as cutters. I know it's only 2 games and Cousins didn't play much against the Lakers but I certainly hope to see more of it.

 

[kingsboi]

What baffles me is why don't we put Cousins in the post and work from there? or if DeMarcus switches to the top of the key, put Tyreke in the post to bully the other guards. Too many times do we see dribbling but not getting anywhere on the court, these players aren't making quick and decisive decisions with the ball, hence why good defensive teams will trap you all day long and force you into turnover after turnover when they see you can't make quick passes and good decisions with heavy pressure.

 

[Lockehead]

What baffles me is why don't we put Cousins in the post and work from there? or if DeMarcus switches to the top of the key, put Tyreke in the post to bully the other guards. Too many times do we see dribbling but not getting anywhere on the court, these players aren't making quick and decisive decisions with the ball, hence why good defensive teams will trap you all day long and force you into turnover after turnover when they see you can't make quick passes and good decisions with heavy pressure.

The few times we saw Cousins work in the post, he was pretty successful in either making the shot, drawin the foul or passing the ball. In the last game at least.

On the note about Tyreke posting up; i dont think he has a post game. Ive seen him matched up with much smaller players here and there, and he failed to post them up effectively. He has a good face up game where he beats his opponent off the dribble. But a post up game he has not so we can stop counting on him to do so.

 

[swisshh]

Westphal called post up plays for Reke in his first season, but hasn't been back to it since. I'm not sure why. An inside/oute game of him and Thornton would be tough to defend.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yeah, I have Chuck and Reke close together in one part of the diagram with the idea of a screen for Reke and then him curling off the screen towards the basket. This also requires Reke to have more off-the-ball awareness. I think any good set with the Kings starters features Hayes around the free throw line to begin with, setting screens and making entry passes to DMC or cutters.

And it's what he did in Houston.

 

[SacTownKid]

Westphal called post up plays for Reke in his first season, but hasn't been back to it since. I'm not sure why. An inside/oute game of him and Thornton would be tough to defend.

And in the process it completely doesn't utilize any of the other players on the floor. It could be a good thing to go to if the matchups are just too obvious, like the ones Westphal was completely obliterated with by Nate McMillan, but it's not anything remotely consistent or foundation worthy.

 

[rainmaker]

IMO we have a few major problems that I have observed.

1) Over-reliance on outside shooting. There's a reason why the Phoenix Suns, Orlando Magic didn't win championships based on shooting. It is even worse when you've got a shorter packed season and guys are less fresh. We all saw the difference in Marcus Thornton and Evans' shooting between the Lakers and Blazers game. That's what physical and mental fatigue will do to you. It's far easier to make an easy layup or shot nearer the basket off of good planned offense than it is spotting up for 3 pointers repeatedly.

2) Horrible screens. Seriously I rarely see opponents get caught in any of our screens, even when we try to use them to get guys free. How many times have you watched Thornton/ Evans have to go out way beyond the 3 point line just to get the ball? It's difficult for anyone to run an offense or getp ast the defense when they have to go further from the basket to get the ball. I thought bringing in Chuck Hayes would hopefully solve this proble, but so far it hasn't.

3) Guys stop dribbling prematurely. I know that Tyreke, John are criticized for dribbling the ball and not moving it enough, but it's just as bad as stopping the dribble but standing there and not moving the ball. I've seen our guys pick up their dribbles and wait a good 4 seconds just to see who's open for a pass. You shouldn't have to pick up the ball and then look around to pass the ball. If no one is open why did you even pick up your dribble? And again, this goes hand in hand with the point about screens/ getting guys free. We have our bigs picking up the ball just inside the 3 point line, and then holding it for 4 seconds, then passing it to a guard who has to come running outside the 3 point line so that the big can just hand it off. By then we have 7 seconds on the shotclock and are forced into an ISO situation.

I'm disappointed that in 2 games we haven't seen any backdoor cuts with Cousins getting the ball to the cutter. It was a significant part of our offense last year, where we used either Beno or Tyreke as cutters. I know it's only 2 games and Cousins didn't play much against the Lakers but I certainly hope to see more of it.

It's not that we set horrible screens. Cousins and Hayes set pretty good screens. JT however, is horrible. Just putrid at setting screens.

IMO, it's more that our guards don't know how to use screens, with Reke being by far the biggest culprit, followed by Marcus. When you have the ball, and the big is setting the screen, you need to set your man up, and go shoulder to shoulder with the screener. Reke is terrible at that. He actually usually just backs up, and dribble in place while watching the screen being set, and then disintegrate.

A big part is he just simply doesn't know how to run a pick & roll. Why Westy doesn't seem to be teaching our guards how to do that is worrisome. The other part with Reke using screens effectively, is even if he did go shoulder to shoulder and lose his man, he doesn't have a pullup jumper, or a floater. Those are a must. I'm pretty disappointed I haven't seen a single floater/teardrop from Reke in four games now, nor a left handed layup. Those were two things imo, which were critical for him to add this past summer. Not the 3 pointer, but his left hand, and a floater. Still waiting. But it's early.

Also, yes, guys stop dribbling to early, but they also start dribbling without a purpose, which is even worse. I do think this is partly due to unfamiliarity with new teammates, and will improve. But watch the top guards in the game. They have mastered the triple threat. With a live dribble, you are as dangerous as you can be on offense. Thorton is our only guard at the moment who appears to know how to use the triple threat. Reke however, when getting the ball on the wing, start dribbling in place far to often. Face up your defender, pump fake, and when you put the rock on the floor, do it with a purpose.

I agree on the too much outside shooting. The small lineup just makes it worse. The Jimmer/Thorton/Thomas/Outlaw crap must stop immediately. Not only are we getting killed defensively with that lineup, but that lineup won't get you many points in the paint either, or offensive rebs and 2nd chances.

This is now the third year I'm saying this. For such a young team, our offense is based on far too much freedom. We need structure. we need set plays. This freelance crap based on reads doesn't work with such an inexperienced squad. That's also why guys aren't getting the ball where they can be most effective, and play to their strengths.

 

[Kingster]

I thought L.A. did a terrible job of defending Tyreke. Portland didn't make the same mistake. He's just not going to be able to start from 25 feet out and drive all the way from the top of the key to the basket, notwithstanding the alley-oop-whoopsie-doo moves that he tries to make. Teams have dialled in on Tyreke like a cruise missile. If Tyreke is really the same player of Year 1 and 2, I think Westphal has got to put him at the 3. (I know, we lose his great ballhandling at the 3). I'd rather have Salmons at the guard position than Tyreke (not that his ballhandling is great either).

For now, I'm just going to wait and see for the next 10 games or so. The Kings have had virtually no practice time, they have a new offense, and they don't have a veteran point guard. So it's hard to have extremely high expectations at the beginning of the season. Still, if they can just continue to grind away with good defense, get some more turnovers, and get some more fast breaks so they don't have to set up a half-court offense, .500 ball still looks doable.

 

[Sac.Kings]

I thought L.A. did a terrible job of defending Tyreke. Portland didn't make the same mistake. He's just not going to be able to start from 25 feet out and drive all the way from the top of the key to the basket, notwithstanding the alley-oop-whoopsie-doo moves that he tries to make. Teams have dialled in on Tyreke like a cruise missile. If Tyreke is really the same player of Year 1 and 2, I think Westphal has got to put him at the 3. (I know, we lose his great ballhandling at the 3). I'd rather have Salmons at the guard position than Tyreke (not that his ballhandling is great either).

For now, I'm just going to wait and see for the next 10 games or so. The Kings have had virtually no practice time, they have a new offense, and they don't have a veteran point guard. So it's hard to have extremely high expectations at the beginning of the season. Still, if they can just continue to grind away with good defense, get some more turnovers, and get some more fast breaks so they don't have to set up a half-court offense, .500 ball still looks doable.

Though I agree with you about the lack of practice (to a certain extent), it is also painfully evident that Tyreke has not made any progress on the court in terms of his decision making. His game is virtually the same as it was over 2 years ago and that is a cause for concern. He has not made any adjustments to how teams play him and its painful to see him dribble dribble fadeaway jumpshot at the top of the key ---> airball. Seems to happen a lot for a player we consider to be one of the most important pieces of the team. I am not sure what you mean by a new offense, unless its allowing Thornton to also go 1 on 1. I am not a big fan of Westphal (I think he's a nice guy, but an idiot when it comes to coaching-- the man just doesn't know what to do simple as that) and I have only heard of one offensive set with an actual name come out of Westphal's mouth-- the 1-4 flat. That is just a fancy name for a Tyreke isolation. There are a number of things wrong with this team that will not be fixed even if they had the next month to practice. One on one play is the ugliest form of basketball there is, and I cringe watching the Kings play. It would be so simple to show them an offensive set, even a pick&roll, that would allow them to have some sort of flow to the game. We will not win more games (percentage wise) if this play continues, for it is the same offense we have had for the last two years. Someone, and at this point I don't even care who, needs to instill a proper offense. Westphal has had 2 years to do it, and has not accomplished much of anything except get worse from year 1 to year 2.

I am very optimistic about the possibilities that this particular squad can do. Jimmer can ball (even though nervousness is playing a role right now), and so can Thomas. Outlaw can also, when used properly and not asked to shoot with a cast on his hand. The majority of the pieces are there, but as of right now the circle pieces are trying to be shoved into a square hole and vice versa, and the players are lost. I am excited for this season and it is clear as day the talent is there (see the laker game) as well as inexperience (see portland game). Progress is what I am looking for in this season, and I sure am expecting it. Being in the cellar of the conference for 5-6 years straight is getting old! I want playoffs and damn it I want kobe in the playoffs so we can knock him out!!

EDIT: I am not in any way hating on Tyreke, I am a big fan of his, but I just feel as if he is lacking guidance and not doing a great job of adjusting to defenses that are focused on stopping his drives. I hope that the jumper he showed in the Lakers game is back tonight!

 

[Kingster]

Though I agree with you about the lack of practice (to a certain extent), it is also painfully evident that Tyreke has not made any progress on the court in terms of his decision making. His game is virtually the same as it was over 2 years ago and that is a cause for concern. He has not made any adjustments to how teams play him and its painful to see him dribble dribble fadeaway jumpshot at the top of the key ---> airball. Seems to happen a lot for a player we consider to be one of the most important pieces of the team. I am not sure what you mean by a new offense, unless its allowing Thornton to also go 1 on 1. I am not a big fan of Westphal (I think he's a nice guy, but an idiot when it comes to coaching-- the man just doesn't know what to do simple as that) and I have only heard of one offensive set with an actual name come out of Westphal's mouth-- the 1-4 flat. That is just a fancy name for a Tyreke isolation. There are a number of things wrong with this team that will not be fixed even if they had the next month to practice. One on one play is the ugliest form of basketball there is, and I cringe watching the Kings play. It would be so simple to show them an offensive set, even a pick&roll, that would allow them to have some sort of flow to the game. We will not win more games (percentage wise) if this play continues, for it is the same offense we have had for the last two years. Someone, and at this point I don't even care who, needs to instill a proper offense. Westphal has had 2 years to do it, and has not accomplished much of anything except get worse from year 1 to year 2.

I am very optimistic about the possibilities that this particular squad can do. Jimmer can ball (even though nervousness is playing a role right now), and so can Thomas. Outlaw can also, when used properly and not asked to shoot with a cast on his hand. The majority of the pieces are there, but as of right now the circle pieces are trying to be shoved into a square hole and vice versa, and the players are lost. I am excited for this season and it is clear as day the talent is there (see the laker game) as well as inexperience (see portland game). Progress is what I am looking for in this season, and I sure am expecting it. Being in the cellar of the conference for 5-6 years straight is getting old! I want playoffs and damn it I want kobe in the playoffs so we can knock him out!!

EDIT: I am not in any way hating on Tyreke, I am a big fan of his, but I just feel as if he is lacking guidance and not doing a great job of adjusting to defenses that are focused on stopping his drives. I hope that the jumper he showed in the Lakers game is back tonight!

Regarding "new offense", I'm just repeating what Westphal said. Frankly, I didn't know it was a new offense until I read about that recently in the newspaper. The offense doesn't look differently to me from last year, but I don't pretend to be an X's and O's guy.

I'm optimistic with this team on the defensive end of the floor and with their rebounding. The Kings have 64 games to get better in assist to turnovers. If they don't get appreciably better in that area, then either the personnel isn't talented in passing, the coaching isn't good enough, or both. In either case, it's management's responsibility. They chose to go into the season with this lineup.

As far as Tyreke is concern, he's got to show improvement. So far, I'm dissapointed in his lack of progress. I heard about all this off-season coaching, about him being in better shape, about working on his game, but I haven't seen it on the floor as yet. Still waiting....

 

[SacTownKid]

Regarding "new offense", I'm just repeating what Westphal said. Frankly, I didn't know it was a new offense until I read about that recently in the newspaper. The offense doesn't look differently to me from last year, but I don't pretend to be an X's and O's guy.

I'm optimistic with this team on the defensive end of the floor and with their rebounding. The Kings have 64 games to get better in assist to turnovers. If they don't get appreciably better in that area, then either the personnel isn't talented in passing, the coaching isn't good enough, or both. In either case, it's management's responsibility. They chose to go into the season with this lineup.

As far as Tyreke is concern, he's got to show improvement. So far, I'm dissapointed in his lack of progress. I heard about all this off-season coaching, about him being in better shape, about working on his game, but I haven't seen it on the floor as yet. Still waiting....

It's because he's saying one thing and the team is doing another. It's either on him or the team. We'll find out in time. Sounded like they were going build upon the style they played at the end of last year, yet, so far they're looking identical to the team that started the year and relied on mostly draw and kick and guard penetration.

 

[bajaden]

It's not that we set horrible screens. Cousins and Hayes set pretty good screens. JT however, is horrible. Just putrid at setting screens.

IMO, it's more that our guards don't know how to use screens, with Reke being by far the biggest culprit, followed by Marcus. When you have the ball, and the big is setting the screen, you need to set your man up, and go shoulder to shoulder with the screener. Reke is terrible at that. He actually usually just backs up, and dribble in place while watching the screen being set, and then disintegrate.

A big part is he just simply doesn't know how to run a pick & roll. Why Westy doesn't seem to be teaching our guards how to do that is worrisome. The other part with Reke using screens effectively, is even if he did go shoulder to shoulder and lose his man, he doesn't have a pullup jumper, or a floater. Those are a must. I'm pretty disappointed I haven't seen a single floater/teardrop from Reke in four games now, nor a left handed layup. Those were two things imo, which were critical for him to add this past summer. Not the 3 pointer, but his left hand, and a floater. Still waiting. But it's early.

Also, yes, guys stop dribbling to early, but they also start dribbling without a purpose, which is even worse. I do think this is partly due to unfamiliarity with new teammates, and will improve. But watch the top guards in the game. They have mastered the triple threat. With a live dribble, you are as dangerous as you can be on offense. Thorton is our only guard at the moment who appears to know how to use the triple threat. Reke however, when getting the ball on the wing, start dribbling in place far to often. Face up your defender, pump fake, and when you put the rock on the floor, do it with a purpose.

I agree on the too much outside shooting. The small lineup just makes it worse. The Jimmer/Thorton/Thomas/Outlaw crap must stop immediately. Not only are we getting killed defensively with that lineup, but that lineup won't get you many points in the paint either, or offensive rebs and 2nd chances.

This is now the third year I'm saying this. For such a young team, our offense is based on far too much freedom. We need structure. we need set plays. This freelance crap based on reads doesn't work with such an inexperienced squad. That's also why guys aren't getting the ball where they can be most effective, and play to their strengths.

Your right about our guards using screens. And by the way, Chuck Hayes sets excellent screens. JT isn't as bad as he looks, and his flaws are exaggerated by guys like Tyreke that don't know how to use a screen properly. The other night Jimmer showed a text book example of how your susposed to come off a screen. You touched on another pet peeve of mine as well. I'm always amazed how the moment a player recieves a pass, he automaticly does one of two things. He establishes a pivot foot, or he puts the ball on the floor. I remember hearing a lecture by Rick Barry on basketball techniques. He said when a player recieves a pass from teammate, he should do neither of those two things.

The moment you establish a pivot foot, you've limited yourself with a good defender as to where you can go with the ball. You've now given him the ability to overplay you to the direction he wants you to go. And of course if you immediately put the ball on the floor, you've taken away any mystery of your intentions. The best option is to do nothing and see what the defense gives you. Cousins by the way, does this very well when he uses his spin move along the baseline. The move works so well because he hasn't established a pivot foot or put the ball on the floor. So the defender can't cheat him on one side or the other and has to play him straight up. The times he does put the ball on the floor is when he struggles, and gets forced into a double. The less a big man has to dribble the ball the more effective he'll be. Which also means, stay close to the basket if you want an effective post game.