Next Season: Who starts at the 4?

[kingsnation]

Amidst all of the discussion around here regarding Smart, DMC and IT - there is a real debate developing regarding our Power Forward position.

We all know this season is lost and we have an idiot as our coach so let's look to next year.

Let's assume we're still the Sacramento Kings and we have a new, competent Head Coach.

Who starts the season at the 4? Jason Thompson or Patrick Patterson? They both have different talents and do some things well while lacking in other areas. The question, I guess, is who would complement DMC, Reke and the rest of our starters the most?

Personally, I'm not convinced that either of them is our "long-term" answer at the 4. I believe that both are more suited for the 6th man type of role. However, if we have only those two - then I'd say start Patterson. He can spread the floor more for Reke and for our offense to move. JT will bring hustle and size off the bench and can play the 5 better than PPat can.

However, even in all of that, I'm not completely convinced that'd be the best decision.

So, you're in charge - who starts at the 4 next year? JT or PPat and why?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Both Thompson and Patterson are quality reserves. Neither are quality starters. And, just as a matter of personal taste, I don't ever want to see a "stretch" big starting for my team. Ever.

 

[Bricklayer]

Both Thompson and Patterson are quality reserves. Neither are quality starters. And, just as a matter of personal taste, I don't ever want to see a "stretch" big starting for my team. Ever.

I would generally agree with this, and I think the additional thing here is: we need a shotblocker. Its blatantly obvious to anybody not named Jerry Reynolds. Most great centers over the decades have also been great rim protectors. Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Admiral, Mourning, etc. Cousins is nto and never will be. So he enters an unusual class of centers where they are great on offense, but actively need somebody else to be the paint protector. The appropriate comparison here is Brad Daugherty. Well, the guy the Cavs stuck next to Daugherty to cover for his not being a shotblocker was Larry Nance (and John Hot Rod Williams off the bench could also block shots). So I think the starting PF is going to be a shotblocker. If the Thunder would just trade us Ibaka that would be about right. Since they won't, since we let Daly walk, blew it on Drummond, I don't know who. Josh Smith might be the new Larry Nance, but he wouldn't want to come here, wants a max deal, and is getting older and about ready to lose those hops anyway. But somebody has to play that role. And that's your starter. Then either Pat Pat or JT is your 3rd big.

 

[The_Jamal]

Ppat is the best option until we find the mythical defensive PF to play next to Cousins. He's not a sissy stretch 4 like most of them are, he's a good rotational defender, and he understands his role offensively. All 3 qualities are ones we sorely need.

 

[GoodOldDouwe]

I would generally agree with this, and I think the additional thing here is: we need a shotblocker. Its blatantly obvious to anybody not named Jerry Reynolds. Most great centers over the decades have also been great rim protectors. Kareem, Hakeem, Ewing, Admiral, Mourning, etc. Cousins is nto and never will be. So he enters an unusual class of centers where they are great on offense, but actively need somebody else to be the paint protector. The appropriate comparison here is Brad Daugherty. Well, the guy the Cavs stuck next to Daugherty to cover for his not being a shotblocker was Larry Nance (and John Hot Rod Williams off the bench could also block shots). So I think the starting PF is going to be a shotblocker. If the Thunder would just trade us Ibaka that would be about right. Since they won't, since we let Daly walk, blew it on Drummond, I don't know who. Josh Smith might be the new Larry Nance, but he wouldn't want to come here, wants a max deal, and is getting older and about ready to lose those hops anyway. But somebody has to play that role. And that's your starter. Then either Pat Pat or JT is your 3rd big.

I've been thinking a lot about a shotblocker who knows how to rebound(and who's available). Daly still comes to mind, but since we let him walk I don't think the Kings (GP) are interested in him. Another guy who's available in the summer is Chris Andersen. He's blocking shots, grabbing rebounds and being a perfect role player in Miami. His age could be a problem with his athleticism, but he still has some hops left. We could try out Greg Oden, he has(/had) a lot of talent and it doesn't hurt to get him in the gym and see how his knees are doing. And they've got to make a decision in Utah, wether to resign Big Al or Millsap. If they choose to resign Jefferson, I'd go after Millsap. He's a tough guy who is a pretty good rebounder. If they opt to resign both(although I don't know if they can), I'd try to get Derrick Favors. A long, athletic guy who can block shots, rebound en shoot a jumper. How about Kurt Thomas?

 

[HereWeBoogie]

hopefully someone who isnt on the team right now. but if thats not an option, i vote PPat over JT

 

[Cwebb#4]

I vote Ppat over JT, but if the Nerlens is still on the draft board by our pick, GET HIM.

 

[Mojo]

No telling until we know who is going to be in the front office. Chances are that we are going to see a lot of movement with the new regime though so I'm not expecting it to be anybody currently on the roster.

 

[upinsmoke]

Josh smith?

 

[DesertFox]

Pat makes the most sense, even though I still consider JT (especially if he remembers how to rebound) the better player.

While the shotblocking big would be ideal, he doesn't have to be a starter or major player. An athletic 10-15 min 4th big like the role Birdman plays is fine. I would trade Hayes/Outlaw for a look at Biedrins' expiring deal.

 

[ESP47]

It depends on who the SF is. If we have a 3 point shooting SF then we need JT to start. If our SF can't shoot 3's then it may be better to have Patterson stretch the floor.

I feel like Patterson is craftier and could make a bigger splash off the bench offensively. Thompson is much better at put backs and doing some dirty work under the basket. I like him with the first team better overall.

Really I guess it doesn't matter. We aren't going to get much better or worse regardless of who starts.

 

[rainmaker]

I think some are over estimating how many shotblocking PF's are out there and our chances of getting one. The FA list is unimpressive. If we want a shotblocking PF we have to pull off a trade. Which shotblocking PF's are actually on the market or will be? Josh Smith isn't coming to Sac. Chris Anderson I don't really want nor do I think he'd come. Blatche is terrible defensively. Speights? Turiaf? Maxiell? Earl Clark? That's the crap which is available on the FA market.

As for centers, many more options. Daly, Splitter, Okafor, Biedrens, Pachulia, Mohammad, our own Aldrich, but nothing great. Daly is attractive to me as per 36 he's still playing well, knows Sac, knows Cuz and is mobile enough to guard PF's. Okafor is another option. Others aren't starters.

One name I keep coming back to is Varejao. What would it take to get him and has he healed, how much of an injury risk is he? But he's someone who'd fit well next to Cuz and might be available. Past that, I think you're looking at a risk, trading for someone like Udoh, but is a guy like Udoh ready to start?

And, are you willing to play Cuz at PF? If not, your options are limited. Very limited. Exactly which starting level shotblocking PF is an actual realistic target?

 

[mac]

I think some are over estimating how many shotblocking PF's are out there and our chances of getting one. The FA list is unimpressive. If we want a shotblocking PF we have to pull off a trade. Which shotblocking PF's are actually on the market or will be? Josh Smith isn't coming to Sac. Chris Anderson I don't really want nor do I think he'd come. Blatche is terrible defensively. Speights? Turiaf? Maxiell? Earl Clark? That's the crap which is available on the FA market.

As for centers, many more options. Daly, Splitter, Okafor, Biedrens, Pachulia, Mohammad, our own Aldrich, but nothing great. Daly is attractive to me as per 36 he's still playing well, knows Sac, knows Cuz and is mobile enough to guard PF's. Okafor is another option. Others aren't starters.

One name I keep coming back to is Varejao. What would it take to get him and has he healed, how much of an injury risk is he? But he's someone who'd fit well next to Cuz and might be available. Past that, I think you're looking at a risk, trading for someone like Udoh, but is a guy like Udoh ready to start?

And, are you willing to play Cuz at PF? If not, your options are limited. Very limited. Exactly which starting level shotblocking PF is an actual realistic target?

Travis Outlaw has length and hops. Let's turn him into a shotblocker

 

[The_Jamal]

I think some are over estimating how many shotblocking PF's are out there and our chances of getting one. The FA list is unimpressive. If we want a shotblocking PF we have to pull off a trade. Which shotblocking PF's are actually on the market or will be? Josh Smith isn't coming to Sac. Chris Anderson I don't really want nor do I think he'd come. Blatche is terrible defensively. Speights? Turiaf? Maxiell? Earl Clark? That's the crap which is available on the FA market.

As for centers, many more options. Daly, Splitter, Okafor, Biedrens, Pachulia, Mohammad, our own Aldrich, but nothing great. Daly is attractive to me as per 36 he's still playing well, knows Sac, knows Cuz and is mobile enough to guard PF's. Okafor is another option. Others aren't starters.

One name I keep coming back to is Varejao. What would it take to get him and has he healed, how much of an injury risk is he? But he's someone who'd fit well next to Cuz and might be available. Past that, I think you're looking at a risk, trading for someone like Udoh, but is a guy like Udoh ready to start?

And, are you willing to play Cuz at PF? If not, your options are limited. Very limited. Exactly which starting level shotblocking PF is an actual realistic target?

There isn't one. Outside of Favors, Sanders, and Ibaka, the PF position is a cluster of offensive-first bigs.

I actually do wonder about Favors though. Does Utah resign Al Jeff and Milsap? If they do, Favors might be on the market. I'd be more than willing to trade our unprotected 1st (if it's legal too) and one of Thornton/It/Jimmer etc for Favors. Still might not be enough for him though

 

[Kingster]

They need to get both a 3 and a 4 that are currently not on the team. That is if they keep Cousins. Salmons is the 2nd from the bottom in the league for rebounds for a 3 and a defensive liability at the 3. Thompson is sub par rebounding 4 and average defensive 4. PPat is a good intelligent player, but can't make up for the defensive deficiencies of Cousins. He should be paired with Cole who is a more defensive minded center. So if they keep both Cousins and Tyreke, this is the way it should go - new power forward that has more length, rebounding and defensive capability than either PPat or Thompson, and a three that can guard and rebound 3s. Tyreke then becomes the defensive stopper at the 2. (Currently, Salmons is the defensive stopper at the 2).

All that being said, I think Cousins can play much better defense than he has of late. He took a lot more charges at the beginning of the season, for example. That's just effort.

 

[Darth Divac]

They need to get both a 3 and a 4 that are currently not on the team. That is if they keep Cousins. Salmons is the 2nd from the bottom in the league for rebounds for a 3 and a defensive liability at the 3. Thompson is sub par rebounding 4 and average defensive 4. PPat is a good intelligent player, but can't make up for the defensive deficiencies of Cousins. He should be paired with Cole who is a more defensive minded center. So if they keep both Cousins and Tyreke, this is the way it should go - new power forward that has more length, rebounding and defensive capability than either PPat or Thompson, and a three that can guard and rebound 3s. Tyreke then becomes the defensive stopper at the 2. (Currently, Salmons is the defensive stopper at the 2).

All that being said, I think Cousins can play much better defense than he has of late. He took a lot more charges at the beginning of the season, for example. That's just effort.

I think Nerlens fits that bill (as noted by Cwebb#4), but he'd be difficult to come by, so let's look at our other options.

 

[Bricklayer]

There isn't one. Outside of Favors, Sanders, and Ibaka, the PF position is a cluster of offensive-first bigs.

I actually do wonder about Favors though. Does Utah resign Al Jeff and Milsap? If they do, Favors might be on the market. I'd be more than willing to trade our unprotected 1st (if it's legal too) and one of Thornton/It/Jimmer etc for Favors. Still might not be enough for him though

There are others dancing on the edges of PF/C, but the question is can they make enough of an impact as a shotblocker? Gray, Henson, Amir Johnson, Udoh etc. They exist. But they are relatively rare, and always have been. This is not new. The center is the biggest man on the floor, hence it is no surprise that that is normally where you get your shotblocking from. Having Cousins presents a fairly rare challenge for a team. I have mentioned the last time this happened would have been 25 years ago, when the Cavs had a great do it all center named Brad Daugherty, and found not one, but two rare shotblocking bigs in Larry Nance and John Hot Rod Williams to put around him so that his lack of shotblocking did not matter. You could say the Pacers did the same thing putting the two Davises around Rik Smits, although Smits was never quite at the same level as a center, and was so immense himself that even without shotblocking he was a roadblock. Its rare though. Before that you have to go back to maybe Moses. But Moses in his prime was a shotblocker -- when the Sixers won the title he blocked 2.0 a game. And while he played on and on until 40 and lost his ability to clog the middle, his teams rarely won much as that happened. Jeff Ruland was briefly going to be another huge groundbound megacenter until injuries derailed him, but he too was paired with a semi-shotblocker in Rick Mahorn, and those two guys were every bit as filthy as Mahorn/Laimbeer and committed multiple felonies every night on anybody who drove the lane. That too hurts us now -- once upon a time if you couldn't block a shot you could just be a thug and block bodies instead. Nowadays they give you a flagrant if you slap a guy too hard.

All of the history above is to suggest simply that rare or not, if you have Cousins, it HAS to be done. There isn't a choice in the matter. If you want to be good you HAVE to get a shotblocker in there next to him. So you bust your butt to get one of those rare pieces, who is going to be more valuable to you than to other teams who still have the shotblocking center option open to them. You look at pure PFs. You look at Kirilenko going back to PF. You look at mobile C/PF combos who could swing down. You pursue it aggressively, and you make it happen. That player is going to be a core critical piece next to Cousins for a long time.

 

[Spike]

So our options boil down to that guy who doesn't play big minutes on a team in the hopes that he blossoms here, or the draft? Sounds like a plan. Luckily, we have some tradable assets that can get us there.

 

[The_Jamal]

There are others dancing on the edges of PF/C, but the question is can they make enough of an impact as a shotblocker? Gray, Henson, Amir Johnson, Udoh etc. They exist. But they are relatively rare, and always have been. This is not new. The center is the biggest man on the floor, hence it is no surprise that that is normally where you get your shotblocking from. Having Cousins presents a fairly rare challenge for a team. I have mentioned the last time this happened would have been 25 years ago, when the Cavs had a great do it all center named Brad Daugherty, and found not one, but two rare shotblocking bigs in Larry Nance and John Hot Rod Williams to put around him so that his lack of shotblocking did not matter. You could say the Pacers did the same thing putting the two Davises around Rik Smits, although Smits was never quite at the same level as a center, and was so immense himself that even without shotblocking he was a roadblock. Its rare though. Before that you have to go back to maybe Moses. But Moses in his prime was a shotblocker -- when the Sixers won the title he blocked 2.0 a game. And while he played on and on until 40 and lost his ability to clog the middle, his teams rarely won much as that happened. Jeff Ruland was briefly going to be another huge groundbound megacenter until injuries derailed him, but he too was paired with a semi-shotblocker in Rick Mahorn, and those two guys were every bit as filthy as Mahorn/Laimbeer and committed multiple felonies every night on anybody who drove the lane. That too hurts us now -- once upon a time if you couldn't block a shot you could just be a thug and block bodies instead. Nowadays they give you a flagrant if you slap a guy too hard.

All of the history above is to suggest simply that rare or not, if you have Cousins, it HAS to be done. There isn't a choice in the matter. If you want to be good you HAVE to get a shotblocker in there next to him. So you bust your butt to get one of those rare pieces, who is going to be more valuable to you than to other teams who still have the shotblocking center option open to them. You look at pure PFs. You look at Kirilenko going back to PF. You look at mobile C/PF combos who could swing down. You pursue it aggressively, and you make it happen. That player is going to be a core critical piece next to Cousins for a long time.

Well yea, there's always been mega-athletes who've been able to block shots. Those guys are a dime a dozen. The problem is, a majority of them are not very good defensive players and are just really good athletes.

The key with finding a shotblocker is finding one who knows how to play defense as well. If you look at the best defensive bigs in the NBA (Howard, Chandler, Ibaka, Marc Gasol etc) all of them are fantastic rotational, man, and help defenders. They know exactly where to be at all times and are always ready to be in great help position. That's the difference between them and guys like Dalembert and McGee. Sure, they block a few shots a game and alter another handful, but they don't know how to play team or man defense on nearly the same level. Thus, the reason those guys are 20 MPG players instead of 30+ MPG

 

[DesertFox]

I'm going to disagree with the shotblocker being necessary next to Cuz. It would be ideal, but just having a backup of that type to have as an option is good enough.

When this team was running out a IT/MT/Reke perimeter, a shotblocker was a glaring need.

But if the team adds a real defensive SF, and moves one of IT/MT for another guard who can play D next to Reke, then you can survive with a Pat/Cuz frontline.

 

[Arkitect]

I don't know if it would be any easier, but we could also think about getting an elite SF defender and team them up with Reke. Still need a shotblocker, but it can be a second tier guy. Go the MJ/Pippen or Wade/Lebron route. Of course most of those guys are already happy sitting on contending teams on decent contracts. We really screwed up over the last 2 years in this regard. Probably 10 impact defenders at PF and SF have either been drafted or traded and we have not sniffed any of them.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't know if it would be any easier, but we could also think about getting an elite SF defender and team them up with Reke. Still need a shotblocker, but it can be a second tier guy. Go the MJ/Pippen or Wade/Lebron route. Of course most of those guys are already happy sitting on contending teams on decent contracts. We really screwed up over the last 2 years in this regard. Probably 10 impact defenders at PF and SF have either been drafted or traded and we have not sniffed any of them.

1) Iggy is rumored to be opting out this summer

2) People do like to do things the hard way. That strategy has worked exactly twice, both times involving pairs of HOFers teaming up, including 2 of the likely Top 10 players of all time. Shotblockers are fairly rare. But a good half of the teams in the league have them at any one time. It is only because of the Geoff Petrie one man 2 decade old embargo that this fanbase thinks they are such a strange exotic and possibly not even desirable bird. But compared to the alternate of teaming up 2 or more all timers at the other spots they are as common and prolific as dandelions.