My thoughts on the Kings this offseason

[Jerichoholic]

I'm in agreement with Brick in that the biggest problem with the Kings right now is that they have a bunch of pieces that don't fit together, they also don't know what system they're supposed to run. They need to get a good coach to come in asap so he can begin establishing his system with the current players and see which ones fit and which ones don't. It would be nice to have his input with trades, free agency, and the draft, that way everyone's on the same page.

Unfortunately, fixing this team is going to be difficult. All the Kings have is the MLE and million dollar exception and neither is going to get them a top or even probably a decent free agent. If a good player can't be found I'd rather have them not use it simply to appease the fans or show that they are trying to do something and give us even more future cap trouble. That has been the story lately with guys like Shareef and Salmons. Getting a guy like Gerald Wallace, Darko, or Mo Williams is just not going to be possible.

Another problem is the draft, this seems to be an 8 or 9 player draft and the Kings just fell out of it. They don't need a player like Jeff Green, Julian Wright, and definitely not Spencer Hawes.

The only hope for the Kings is trades considering Bibby and Artest have 2 more years left (I doubt either will opt out) and Miller and Thomas have 3 to 4 years left. Not to mention guys like Martin and Garcia will be due extensions. IMO the most realistic option is to trade the pick, Bibby or Artest, and Miller or Thomas for either a solid big man on the block (Randolph, Gasol, O'Neil, etc.) and/or expiring contracts and/or a higher pick. BTW, it will probably take a few trades to get this done.

 

[Catalyst]

The argument that good big men have fallen in the past means that it will happen in this draft too is weak and very vague IMO.

Keep in mind I'm saying the possibility is there, that a good big man will fall to us. Not that it will happen, big difference. Most people seem to think this is a very deep draft, and there's a chance we could end up with a good pick at 10th.

On your other point, I think we'll have to give up players, possibly Miller/Bibby to move up in the draft. If there's a guy that's worth while you certainly have to be open to trying to move up, in my opinion.

Uh well you're the one that's banking on all of this happening by next year, how does a player that's "capable" of 20/10 "in the future" help us contend next year?

*Laughs* I never said I was banking on it happening next year. That's YOUR thought, not mine.

Anyway, a guy capable of averaging 20/10 in the future it's going to be a pretty darn nice player.

You keep overlooking that Artest and Bibby have opt outs next year that they're more than likely going to use. Why should they stay?

Bibby has an opt out this year, if I remember correctly. And as to why they should stay... well, we have their Bird rights. There's a million other reasons why they could stay or go though. If Artest and Bibby will stay is another discussion, in my mind.

Why wouldn't the magic match an MLE offer for Darko? You know how many teams would be willing to pay him the MLE?

I have no idea how many teams would pay him the MLE. Apparently you do?

 

[Catalyst]

I stopped reading when I saw you deemed Ronnie Price a career back up. Give him a year straight of starting and watch what happens. That kid has talent.

I really hope you're right. I was trying to be realistic about Ronnie Price's skills, but I've certainly been wrong before.

 

[Bricklayer]

I really hope you're right. I was trying to be realistic about Ronnie Price's skills, but I've certainly been wrong before.

Oh, I think you likely have a better read than some. Just because a player is young and a King does not make him a future starter. There are 30 starting PG slots in the NBA. The odds of Ronnie developing to the point he deserves one are quite small. I do see some hope though for him to become a poor man's Bobby Jackson one day. But likely still the emphasis on "poor man's". People sometimes forget how good Bobby was back there. When he had to start in place of Bobby to begin the 02-03 year he was averaging something like 17pts 5ast for the first two months of the season until Mike got back, and Bobby promptly broke his hand.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Keep in mind I'm saying the possibility is there, that a good big man will fall to us. Not that it will happen, big difference. Most people seem to think this is a very deep draft, and there's a chance we could end up with a good pick at 10th.

On your other point, I think we'll have to give up players, possibly Miller/Bibby to move up in the draft. If there's a guy that's worth while you certainly have to be open to trying to move up, in my opinion.



*Laughs* I never said I was banking on it happening next year. That's YOUR thought, not mine.

Anyway, a guy capable of averaging 20/10 in the future it's going to be a pretty darn nice player.



Bibby has an opt out this year, if I remember correctly. And as to why they should stay... well, we have their Bird rights. There's a million other reasons why they could stay or go though. If Artest and Bibby will stay is another discussion, in my mind.



I have no idea how many teams would pay him the MLE. Apparently you do?

Yea of course there is a possibility but you're banking your whole win now theory on having the draft as a way to improve the frontcourt. The good big men of this draft that are attainable are Horford, B. Wright, Jianlian, Noah, and Hawes. We have a shot at 1-3 of those guys, probably just 1 and possibly none. I don't disagree that this is a somewhat deep draft in terms of big men (it's not as deep as people are making it out to be) but the potential star big men (Jianlian, Horford, B. Wright) aren't likely to fall to us at 10 and we can't bank our whole plan on one that can significantly help us now since they likely won't be available to us.

It's not that I'm against moving up but you're the one advocating keeping this core and competing with it and if it costs one of those core guys then that kind of shoots down your plan to compete now, that makes it a rebuild mode at that point. Also, I don't see how Bibby or Miller can get us to move up. First, we'd have a hard time moving Miller just to move him but to make him part of a deal that nabs us a higher pick well I just don't see any teams wanting to do that. With Bibby, like I said already we can't trade him before july 1st (That's the first day he can opt out of his contract if he chooses) unless he decides to waive his ETO, so essentially he can cancel out any deal until then which is basically a NTC for him. Bibby is the only player (other than Martin) I can see us nabbing a higher pick and he's a main cog in your win now with this core theory.

I know you never said you were banking on it next year, but I assumed that's what you had to expect considering you're the one saying we can compete now with what we got minus a new coach and a frontcourt upgrade (which we can do by using the 10th and the MLE). Also why next year is important because why do Bibby and Artest stick around unless it's we all of the sudden become contenders? You want to risk losing them for nothing just so we can be a one and done team?

It's not another discussion because if you decide to keep them then you risk losing them for nothing next year.

A young big man who can block shots and still has potential for a good offensive game, yea there are a number of teams who would be interested. Houston, Orlando, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Washington, Golden State are just some off the top of my head that could very well be willing to pay him the MLE. That's beside the point though, the main point is that Orlando will match the MLE leaving us out of luck.

 

[Kingster]

Giving a lot of thought to our roster top to bottom, I don't see us being in as bad of a situation as I once thought.

I'm about to heap a pile of crap on Musselman, so bear with me.

The guy could NOT coach this team. He looked OK at the start, but after a few months it became apparent that things were just not working.

I blame a lot of our lack of having a decent season on him. Our roster didn't change that much from when Adelman and Bonzi left, and for us to drop off that much probably should be laid mostly at the feet of the coach.

Anyway, here's how I see our roster now.

PGs: Mike Bibby is still a very good offensive PG. His weaknesses are highly apparent when you take him out of a pick and roll-based offense, but when he's in one, watch out. Never going to be more than an average defender, at best, he's still one of the game's top PGs. Ronnie Price has some upside, but likely at best a back up in this league. Quincy Douby looks pretty good early on, but he's years away from being able to run the PG spot for an NBA team, if ever. Good shooter/scorer off the bench though, might have some nice potential.

SGs: Kevin Martin has really developed a game. He's HIGHLY efficient, and will find ways to score even when the team isn't feeding him the ball. Future All-Star, in my opinion. Francisco Garcia has proven to be a solid all-around player. Can fill a lot of roles on a team, a good complimentary player.

SFs: Ron Artest is arguably one of the most talented players in the league. When his game is on and he has a nice system to play in, he's a beast and our best player. John Salmons is another guy like Francisco, can play a lot of roles and is very versatile.

PFs: Our roster looks pretty solid up until this point. We can't rebound with a darn, and a big part of it is this position. We have two mediocre rebounders in Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Kenny Thomas. One or both guys need to go and the Kings need to either draft someone for this position or trade for someone. And although he's not re-signed, Justin Williams looks like he'll be able to help this team next year if we can get him under contract.

Centers: Brad Miller, love him or hate him, is a good NBA center. He, like Mike Bibby, struggles when he's not in a structured offense, but when he's in one, he's pretty decent. The biggest knock on Miller besides his injury troubles is his rebounding. For a team in bad need of someone who hits the boards, Miller simply doesn't have the speed or athleticism to be a top rebounder.

Sacramento's offseason needs: First and foremost, we need a real coach. Someone who can get these guys to play as a team again.

Secondly Sacramento needs a much better player at the PF position who's capable of rebounding and blocking shots, and running the pick and roll if we keep Mike Bibby. And as luck would have it, we have the 10th pick in a draft that's supposed to be loaded with big men.

What I don't want to see the Kings do: And that is simply dump our talent without getting a very good return. I'm sure all of us at one time have wanted either Mike Bibby, Ron Artest or Brad Miller gone, or all three of them gone. The problem with dumping Bibby or Artest is that both guys are still very good, and it's going to be hard to replace them.

Even if we draft the next great big man, without a PG that can get him the ball, he's not going to be as effective.

So what should the Kings do? I would lightly shop Brad Miller and Mike Bibby. The 2007 NBA draft is loaded, and if you could move either of these guys and get another lotto pick, it would probably be worth while.

Artest might be too talented to trade, but a lot of this depends on how bad the front office thinks his problems are.

Hopefully Sacramento will use their lotto pick(s?) on finding a very good PF who's capable of hitting the boards, blocking shots, and running the pick and roll.

Drafting a good big man and keeping the roster mostly intact and finding a good coach in the process could get us right back into the playoffs and give us some good hope for the future.

Before I gave it a lot of thought today I was thinking our roster is pretty hopeless, but after taking a close look at what we have — and what we don't have — I feel we could get back in contention with the right moves this offseason.

Mike Bibby's weaknesses are apparent not only when you take him out of the pick and roll, but when he "plays defense." Given that the defense starts with guarding the point, that's extremely important. And if that's the case, can you realy believe that he can be part of the CORE of this team? Sure, he could be a great supporting player. Surround him with 4 bigtime athletes who can make up for his D, let him play next to a big guard who can handle and create, let him play with a legit big man who has to be double teamed, THEN Bibby can look very good. But look at all of those conditions that you have to meet before he plays very good. That's exactly why he's NOT very good.

I think Douby can take a big step this coming year. I was impressed with his D. Price is lauded for his D, but Douby's was better as a rookie than Price's in his second year, imo. I think next year we'll probably see more of his Douby's O. What we didn't see was his running floater shot, which I think makes a guard with good quickness in this league virtually unguardable. I like Price's grit; I'm just not sold on whether his ball-handling and other offensive skills are good enough. Next year is do or die for him.

Martin is the only CORE player this team has. Garcia is a keeper. He's going to keep getting better and better imo.

Small forwards. Artest is a nutcase. If he's not gone by the beginning of camp it means that every single team in the NBA said "NO WAY!" when Petrie gave them a jingle. Salmons is boring. I'd rather give Garcia more minutes at the expense of Salmons because Garcia has more UPside. He's a better defensive player, also. If Phoenix wants Salmons, be my guest - let's deal.

Power forwards? We have none. Justin Williams needs to practice 8 hrs a day on jump hook shot and free throws with a good coach. Then he needs to work out for 8 hours. Then go to bed, wake up, and do it all over until camp begins.

Miller? I am in "tense" disagreement with you. Miller was a good center. The past two years Miller has not been good. Injuries, poor work habits, who knows, but he's been pathetic the last couple of years. We currently have no center. Applications wanted. I would like to get some fishing tips from him though.

The coach. Regarding performance, you put far too much weight on Muss, far too little on the talent-deficient, mental health deficient, basketball IQ deficient nature of last year's team.

As for "contention", well, contending for what? You must be jesting if you think this team could contend for a championship. Contend for the 8th spot? It's possible. Petrie could nab some vets and be just good enough to get there - maybe. I hope not. The cost of doing that strategy is to prooooooloooooongue the gestation period for being a serious NBA championship contender. I'm not in favor of purgatory. Please send me to HELL for two years so I can have the potential to arrive in HEAVEN.

 

[VF21]

You keep overlooking that Artest and Bibby have opt outs next year that they're more than likely going to use. Why should they stay?

In Bibby's case, I can think of close to $30 million reasons.

 

[Vlade4GM]

In Bibby's case, I can think of close to $30 million reasons.

If he has a solid year, I think he'd rather go for length than just more yearly salary over the next two years. I mean why wait till he's over 30 to get his next big contract? I think players care more about long term security than making the most money in one year they can.

 

[Entity]

In reference to the Darko statement about how many teams would offer the MLE.. I am guessin no team that is serious about the way its run. Darko isn't much better RIGHT NOW than Justin Williams and Darko has 3 years under his belt. Give it time an Justin will surpass as PF or C

 

[Bricklayer]

In reference to the Darko statement about how many teams would offer the MLE.. I am guessin no team that is serious about the way its run. Darko isn't much better RIGHT NOW than Justin Williams and Darko has 3 years under his belt. Give it time an Justin will surpass as PF or C

Justin is actually a year older than Darko -- better indicator of development. And Darko will always be far bigger and have the better skills. Darko will doubtless get some MLE offers -- actually a good use of the MLE on a young player who could still make it a bargain. But I suspect the Magic will resign him to considerably more, albeit hopefully for a lot less than the $10 mil number that was being discussed.

 

[Vlade4GM]

In reference to the Darko statement about how many teams would offer the MLE.. I am guessin no team that is serious about the way its run. Darko isn't much better RIGHT NOW than Justin Williams and Darko has 3 years under his belt. Give it time an Justin will surpass as PF or C

Whether he's worth it or not well that's definitely debateable but players with less going for them have gotten the MLE. Regardless the magic will match it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Uh-huh...

I mean, I understand the contempt for Milicic... I get that. But, seriously: Milicic may have been overrated, but don't you think that you might be overrating Williams just a tad?

 

[Entity]

Maybe but, maybe not. Williams could be an asset to a team like us that has several offensive weapons as his scoring is not his greatest attribute yet he scores on oppurtunity and could (at current skill level) average 8 pts a game as a key reserve for the 4/5. Now I wouldn't want him to have plays setup for him as that would take away from his role. Darko could not match that as a reserve and he would insist on plays for him and that would debilitate us a team. Now if you want Darko your starting center then thats a whole new story and that story would be 82 games long with about 30 wins.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And since when does "A is a better fit for our team than B" equate to "A is a better player than B?"

 

[Bricklayer]

Maybe but, maybe not. Williams could be an asset to a team like us that has several offensive weapons as his scoring is not his greatest attribute yet he scores on oppurtunity and could (at current skill level) average 8 pts a game as a key reserve for the 4/5. Now I wouldn't want him to have plays setup for him as that would take away from his role. Darko could not match that as a reserve and he would insist on plays for him and that would debilitate us a team. Now if you want Darko your starting center then thats a whole new story and that story would be 82 games long with about 30 wins.

Er, Darko averaged 8pts 5.5rebs 1.8blks last year precisely as a backup center. I was not blown away by his perfprmance last year, but its kind of hard to say he can't do that since that's precisely what he's done to this point in his career.

 

[JoMama]

Nice job people - very entertaining thread.
Brick made a mention of Miller's work ethic, which begs this question - Why is it that Kings' big men shun the weight room? Vlade was a non-lifter and Brad would rather pump a shotgun than some weights. Brad is not only slow and can't jump, but he needs help opening a pickle jar. Maloofs might be wise to add Arnie (Schwarzenegger) as strength coach. Get some guns (no, not deer rifles) Kings' centers!

My fantasy trade: Kings trade Miller back to Indiana for Jermaine O'Neal. Note, I did say fantasy.

 

[Catalyst]

Yea of course there is a possibility but you're banking your whole win now theory on having the draft as a way to improve the frontcourt.

This draft should improve our frontcourt, if it doesn't...

It's not that I'm against moving up but you're the one advocating keeping this core and competing with it and if it costs one of those core guys then that kind of shoots down your plan to compete now, that makes it a rebuild mode at that point.

I think you're missing my point actually. My original post said that I think our guys have more value than we've been giving them. And that we'd actually have a pretty good team if we had a decent/good front court to add to our current guys.

I also suggested that a trade of one of our core guys might be needed.

If you consider trading one of our core guys rebuilding, cool. I can see where you're coming from.

Also, I don't see how Bibby or Miller can get us to move up. First, we'd have a hard time moving Miller just to move him but to make him part of a deal that nabs us a higher pick well I just don't see any teams wanting to do that.

Good reason to keep him then, until/if good offers start coming in.

I know you never said you were banking on it next year, but I assumed that's what you had to expect considering you're the one saying we can compete now with what we got minus a new coach and a frontcourt upgrade (which we can do by using the 10th and the MLE).

Potentially we could compete now. The thing about getting some young guys through trades and through the draft means we're looking to the future, and maybe the present in the process. Doing smart moves can get you there.

Also why next year is important because why do Bibby and Artest stick around unless it's we all of the sudden become contenders? You want to risk losing them for nothing just so we can be a one and done team?

It's not another discussion because if you decide to keep them then you risk losing them for nothing next year.

Bibby has said he wanted to stick around and retire a King, I believe he said this some time this year. Ron Artest... who knows.

That guy could be in a great situation and competing for a championship and ask the team to trade him. Trying to figure out what goes on in that guy's head is likely impossible.

As far as losing them for nothing, you're right, it is a risk. Although if both guys left it would clear up quite a bit of cap space.

A young big man who can block shots and still has potential for a good offensive game, yea there are a number of teams who would be interested. Houston, Orlando, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Washington, Golden State are just some off the top of my head that could very well be willing to pay him the MLE. That's beside the point though, the main point is that Orlando will match the MLE leaving us out of luck.

Fair enough, wasn't sure of the situation with Darko.

 

[kupman]

My original post said that I think our guys have more value than we've been giving them. And that we'd actually have a pretty good team if we had a decent/good front court to add to our current guys.

For whatever it is worth, I am totally on board with what you have been saying here starting with the first post in the thread. I have been stating a very similar opinion around here for a few months and I can tell you that the opinion is a minority opinion.

Just about every player on the roster this past season played well below their capabilities. It is no coincidence that they all performed poorly relative to previous years in a year that they were being coached by a one and done coach. Mike is an above average PG. Brad is an above average center. They appeared and performed well below average last season. I believe the poor performances where due to a general state of confusion on what they were supposed to be doing in Muss' 'system.'

It would be a mistake to start trading these guys for .50 on the dollar. It is kind of like selling a good stock when it is performing at its lowest level. GP is much smarter than to push the panic button and begin giving the store away to the rest of the league during a Kings garage sale.

Does this roster need an improvement in the talent level? Yes. But I think we have more talent on this team than many people recognize coming off such a dismal season.

 

[Jerryaki]

^^ while the performance last year of mike and brad may have been aberrations, they're not going to be getting back to their form from 2-3 years ago. they're older, they're not picking up new skills/moves, bibby is just past his peaking point IMO, and brad is past his.

them playing up to what they are capable of now still wouldn't make us all that competitive, i think.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I think you're missing my point actually. My original post said that I think our guys have more value than we've been giving them. And that we'd actually have a pretty good team if we had a decent/good front court to add to our current guys.

Well my point is, what is the point in having a one and done team at best? Unless we can become contenders by next year there is no point in putting off a rebuilding mode for another year just because you don't like the exact value you're getting. IMO we cannot afford to wait any longer to start a rebuilding process, it's reasons like "we can't get fair value" and blah blah blah that has prolonged it to this point. We should take what we get without getting damaging contracts in return then move on to the draft and draft the BPA and not necessarily what would help us short term with our short term needs. Our long term needs should be the only concern and our long term needs are young franchise players that we can build around. Long term wise the only position that isn't in need of improvement is SG, all else are wide open IMO.

Good reason to keep him then, until/if good offers start coming in.

Why? What's the point in waiting forever to get the "best" or "fair" value for him? The only thing that should matter is if his trade value is worth more than his value to US on the kings roster. That's the ONLY thing that matters right now because we can't afford to wait and we can't afford to play the rebuilding on the fly game again, hasn't worked up until this point and will just make things worse.

Potentially we could compete now. The thing about getting some young guys through trades and through the draft means we're looking to the future, and maybe the present in the process. Doing smart moves can get you there.

I disagree. I don't think you can mix the two directions, that's what we've been doing and it has failed miserably. You either rebuild and trade Artest and Bibby for the best expirings, young players, draft picks etc. that you can find or you keep them and try to win now. Who cares if we're not getting full value for them because we're not going to get any value from them on the court because we're never going to go anywhere with them on the court, just a lot of first round exits. We don't have that many assets here, we have Bibby, Artest, MLE and the 10th. Unless you think the MLE and the 10th is going to propel us deep into the playoffs I don't understand why you'd want to keep Artest and Bibby. We're never going to get top value for them and we're more than likely going to lose them for nothing.

Bibby has said he wanted to stick around and retire a King, I believe he said this some time this year.

I hear players say that stuff a lot, I don't put much stock into it because in the end they always go after the best deal.

That guy could be in a great situation and competing for a championship and ask the team to trade him. Trying to figure out what goes on in that guy's head is likely impossible.

Which is why there is no point in keeping him.

As far as losing them for nothing, you're right, it is a risk. Although if both guys left it would clear up quite a bit of cap space.

Yes, but you know what else they would do? They would make us just good enough not get into the high lottery but still not make it past the first round in even the best case scenario.

 

[kupman]

^^ while the performance last year of mike and brad may have been aberrations, they're not going to be getting back to their form from 2-3 years ago. they're older, they're not picking up new skills/moves, bibby is just past his peaking point IMO, and brad is past his.

them playing up to what they are capable of now still wouldn't make us all that competitive, i think.

I do not think age has much to do with their recent performances. Mike is 29 and Brad is 31.....not really very old. It is my opinion that they are completely capable of what they were doing just 2-3 years ago.....near all-star level of play. I can actually see them being traded to another team and flourishing with all of us back here saying 'crap....why did we trade him for Joe Schmo again?'

Barring injuries, these guys should be able to maintain their physical skills at least another 2-4 years.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I do not think age has much to do with their recent performances. Mike is 29 and Brad is 31.....not really very old. It is my opinion that they are completely capable of what they were doing just 2-3 years ago.....near all-star level of play. I can actually see them being traded to another team and flourishing with all of us back here saying 'crap....why did we trade him for Joe Schmo again?'

Barring injuries, these guys should be able to maintain their physical skills at least another 2-4 years.

Bibby and Miller even at their finest are still one of the worst defenders in the league at their position. I don't believe the issue of trading Miller will even come up considering no team is likely to even want to touch his ugly contract.

 

[kupman]

Bibby and Miller even at their finest are still one of the worst defenders in the league at their position.

This is true.......good defenders they are not.

 

[Bricklayer]

It would be a mistake to start trading these guys for .50 on the dollar. It is kind of like selling a good stock when it is performing at its lowest level.

You slant the argument through your underlying assumptions.

I could just as easily say its folly to hold onto a stock which was previously overinflated by market conditions (Adelman) and has now corrected. The longer you hold onto it as it wallows, the fewer speculators you are going to find willing to gamble that it will rebound. And at least one of those stocks belongs to a company that is poised for a major scandal and plummet at any time. (Artest) Several more are for companies in aging industries in decline. You get out while the getting is good. In particular when selling off the old undercheiving stocks is the only way to get the money necessary to buy back into the market on some emerging companies.

 

[Kingster]

For whatever it is worth, I am totally on board with what you have been saying here starting with the first post in the thread. I have been stating a very similar opinion around here for a few months and I can tell you that the opinion is a minority opinion.

Just about every player on the roster this past season played well below their capabilities. It is no coincidence that they all performed poorly relative to previous years in a year that they were being coached by a one and done coach. Mike is an above average PG. Brad is an above average center. They appeared and performed well below average last season. I believe the poor performances where due to a general state of confusion on what they were supposed to be doing in Muss' 'system.'

It would be a mistake to start trading these guys for .50 on the dollar. It is kind of like selling a good stock when it is performing at its lowest level. GP is much smarter than to push the panic button and begin giving the store away to the rest of the league during a Kings garage sale.

Does this roster need an improvement in the talent level? Yes. But I think we have more talent on this team than many people recognize coming off such a dismal season.

This is what I don't understand. You are Petrie. You call every NBA team and ask what they would give for Bibby. You take the best offer. Is that offer $.50 on the $1.00? How can it be anything other than $1.00 on the $1.00?

 

[BudWright]

Brick: Do you not think with Muss and Artest (hopefully) gone that good and positive chemistry will again be in the King's locker room? Annie.

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick: Do you not think with Muss and Artest (hopefully) gone that good and positive chemistry will again be in the King's locker room? Annie.

to that wonderfully good and positive locker room we had in the months before the Ron trade?

No (well, yes, back to the flatline it was in early 05-06). There are no leaders, and there is no winning. Removing the aggravating factors should eliminate the poisonous infighting, or most of it. But if you are suggesting that it will be happy days and folk dancing circles again, no. You have a bunch of old, grumpy, struggling vets with no personality dragging themselves around with the great shining hope being that hey, maybe we can break .500. The most you are going to get out of such a situation is a quiet locker room with little obvious friction. But no passion either. Not bad chemistry. Not good chemsitry. Just no chemistry.

In order to ever get back good, positive chemsitry, the team needs a fresh start, fresh faces, and fresh ambitions. Old tired and musty isn't going to get it done.

 

[kupman]

You slant the argument through your underlying assumptions.

I could just as easily say its folly to hold onto a stock which was previously overinflated by market conditions (Adelman) and has now corrected. The longer you hold onto it as it wallows, the fewer speculators you are going to find willing to gamble that it will rebound. And at least one of those stocks belongs to a company that is poised for a major scandal and plummet at any time. (Artest) Several more are for companies in aging industries in decline. You get out while the getting is good. In particular when selling off the old undercheiving stocks is the only way to get the money necessary to buy back into the market on some emerging companies.

No...not really.

I was looking at the data over the past 7-8 years. Most under the conditions of Adelman, but also time with the Pacers and Vancouver. Brad has consistently shown that he can average 13-15 pts and 8-10 boards. He did it here and at Indiana. The one outlying season for Brad since 00-01 has been this season with an averages of 9 and 6.

Mike continues to have show that he can average 15-20 per game. His assists this year, however, were lower than at any other year in his career.

These guys still have the physical abilities to play at a very high level. It would be a mistake to trade them at discounted rates......it could make one of our competitors very happy.

 

[Catalyst]

^^ while the performance last year of mike and brad may have been aberrations, they're not going to be getting back to their form from 2-3 years ago. they're older, they're not picking up new skills/moves...

You know it's funny, people said the same thing about Steve Nash, and look at what he did for the Suns.

Your opinion does have merit though, when a guy starts hitting near the 30s you have to start wondering when the decline will begin, but a lot of NBA players peak right around that same time too.

Their knowledge and other things have usually improved quite a lot by the time they're 30, even if their physical shape may have slightly dropped off.

I personally think with Bibby's work ethic and mentality he's going to be a player for awhile.

Brad Miller's conditioning and work ethic on the other hand... oh boy.

 

[Catalyst]

Well my point is, what is the point in having a one and done team at best? Unless we can become contenders by next year there is no point in putting off a rebuilding mode for another year just because you don't like the exact value you're getting.

Your point has some merit. I kind of agree, but I don't agree with selling everything we have. Too much talent to just mortgage it all.

Even if you go into tank mode, there's no guarantee you're going to be able to get out of it. Look at the Hawks, and several other teams...

You don't want to be mediocre, but on the other hand, you don't want to be completely dreadful either. Losing sometimes becomes a habit that's really hard to change.

Even if you lose a ton of games, you don't always end up with a top spot. This year's draft proves that.

Why? What's the point in waiting forever to get the "best" or "fair" value for him?

If trading Miller helps the team improve, I'm all for it. A good GM is going to make sure that the trade does that, not just make us worse so we lose more games.

Who cares if we're not getting full value for them because we're not going to get any value from them on the court because we're never going to go anywhere with them on the court.

I think this is the main point we disagree on. Probably the root of our discussion. I believe the guys we have can help us build something good, for the future.

I hear players say that stuff a lot, I don't put much stock into it because in the end they always go after the best deal.

Good point. It's not always, but most of the time.

Which is why there is no point in keeping him.

My argument for keeping Artest is because he's too talented to give up on, but again, I see where you're coming from. A guy that unstable...

I'd personally keep Ron if I were GM, but if the Kings decide to move him, I'd fully understand.

Yes, but you know what else they would do? They would make us just good enough not get into the high lottery but still not make it past the first round in even the best case scenario.

Cap space is huge. HUGE. With cap space you can don't have to worry about salaries matching up. You can go after big name free agents.

You can do a lot of things.

As far as what exactly the Kings should do if they got that cap space, that's so hard to say. You don't know who will be a free agent or who might be available via trade when/if that comes around.

Most teams that go into the rebuilding process though seek out lots of cap relief, and it generally works out well.