My thoughts on the Kings this offseason

[Catalyst]

Giving a lot of thought to our roster top to bottom, I don't see us being in as bad of a situation as I once thought.

I'm about to heap a pile of crap on Musselman, so bear with me.

The guy could NOT coach this team. He looked OK at the start, but after a few months it became apparent that things were just not working.

I blame a lot of our lack of having a decent season on him. Our roster didn't change that much from when Adelman and Bonzi left, and for us to drop off that much probably should be laid mostly at the feet of the coach.

Anyway, here's how I see our roster now.

PGs: Mike Bibby is still a very good offensive PG. His weaknesses are highly apparent when you take him out of a pick and roll-based offense, but when he's in one, watch out. Never going to be more than an average defender, at best, he's still one of the game's top PGs. Ronnie Price has some upside, but likely at best a back up in this league. Quincy Douby looks pretty good early on, but he's years away from being able to run the PG spot for an NBA team, if ever. Good shooter/scorer off the bench though, might have some nice potential.

SGs: Kevin Martin has really developed a game. He's HIGHLY efficient, and will find ways to score even when the team isn't feeding him the ball. Future All-Star, in my opinion. Francisco Garcia has proven to be a solid all-around player. Can fill a lot of roles on a team, a good complimentary player.

SFs: Ron Artest is arguably one of the most talented players in the league. When his game is on and he has a nice system to play in, he's a beast and our best player. John Salmons is another guy like Francisco, can play a lot of roles and is very versatile.

PFs: Our roster looks pretty solid up until this point. We can't rebound with a darn, and a big part of it is this position. We have two mediocre rebounders in Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Kenny Thomas. One or both guys need to go and the Kings need to either draft someone for this position or trade for someone. And although he's not re-signed, Justin Williams looks like he'll be able to help this team next year if we can get him under contract.

Centers: Brad Miller, love him or hate him, is a good NBA center. He, like Mike Bibby, struggles when he's not in a structured offense, but when he's in one, he's pretty decent. The biggest knock on Miller besides his injury troubles is his rebounding. For a team in bad need of someone who hits the boards, Miller simply doesn't have the speed or athleticism to be a top rebounder.

Sacramento's offseason needs: First and foremost, we need a real coach. Someone who can get these guys to play as a team again.

Secondly Sacramento needs a much better player at the PF position who's capable of rebounding and blocking shots, and running the pick and roll if we keep Mike Bibby. And as luck would have it, we have the 10th pick in a draft that's supposed to be loaded with big men.

What I don't want to see the Kings do: And that is simply dump our talent without getting a very good return. I'm sure all of us at one time have wanted either Mike Bibby, Ron Artest or Brad Miller gone, or all three of them gone. The problem with dumping Bibby or Artest is that both guys are still very good, and it's going to be hard to replace them.

Even if we draft the next great big man, without a PG that can get him the ball, he's not going to be as effective.

So what should the Kings do? I would lightly shop Brad Miller and Mike Bibby. The 2007 NBA draft is loaded, and if you could move either of these guys and get another lotto pick, it would probably be worth while.

Artest might be too talented to trade, but a lot of this depends on how bad the front office thinks his problems are.

Hopefully Sacramento will use their lotto pick(s?) on finding a very good PF who's capable of hitting the boards, blocking shots, and running the pick and roll.

Drafting a good big man and keeping the roster mostly intact and finding a good coach in the process could get us right back into the playoffs and give us some good hope for the future.

Before I gave it a lot of thought today I was thinking our roster is pretty hopeless, but after taking a close look at what we have — and what we don't have — I feel we could get back in contention with the right moves this offseason.

 

[VF21]

I expect you'll face some tough criticism about this, Catalyst, but I think you've made some decent points. While I'm not expecting to see us back at the top of the heap real soon, I sure believe it's possible to get us headed back in the right direction ... and not just in short-term fixes. I think that's where I do disagree with you - I do NOT want to keep the roster mostly intact. We have a number of players that we could really part with that could improve our situation. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Of course, I'm really looking forward to the selection of our new coach...and draft day!

 

[Catalyst]

I expect you'll face some tough criticism about this, Catalyst, but I think you've made some decent points. While I'm not expecting to see us back at the top of the heap real soon, I sure believe it's possible to get us headed back in the right direction ... and not just in short-term fixes. I think that's where I do disagree with you - I do NOT want to keep the roster mostly intact. We have a number of players that we could really part with that could improve our situation. That's what I'm looking forward to.

Want to or not, it's hard to trade players in the NBA and get value back.

Not to say we won't make any trades, as Petrie usually makes a few, but I can't see our roster undergoing a gigantic face-lift unless some teams come calling with good offers.

 

[John Galt]

Want to or not, it's hard to trade players in the NBA and get value back.

Not to say we won't make any trades, as Petrie usually makes a few, but I can't see our roster undergoing a gigantic face-lift unless some teams come calling with good offers.

For Miller, Kenny, and SAR - the only value back I want is another chance ... a better contract in return that ends sooner. That's not asking too much is it? I just want a chance to start over from basically a blank slate in the front court.

I think you and I are in agreement that we should not get rid of Bibby and Artest for nothing... but I diverge from you in that I would be glad to get rid of all or part of our front court for nothing more than better contracts and a chance to live to fight again another day. It may cost one of our youngsters, or Artest or Bibby to get someone to take any of our frontcourt albatrosses off our hands but in my opinion if we cannot blow up the front court we're doomed.

 

[Catalyst]

For Miller, Kenny, and SAR - the only value back I want is another chance ... a better contract in return that ends sooner. That's not asking too much is it? I just want a chance to start over from basically a blank slate in the front court.

I think you and I are in agreement that we should not get rid of Bibby and Artest for nothing... but I diverge from you in that I would be glad to get rid of all or part of our front court for nothing more than better contracts and a chance to live to fight again another day. It may cost one of our youngsters, or Artest or Bibby to get someone to take any of our frontcourt albatrosses off our hands but in my opinion if we cannot blow up the front court we're doomed.

Actually, I think you make a fairly good point about getting rid of the front court, possibly entirely.

I only kind of like Brad Miller, but I think he's a guy with enough value that you don't just dump him.

On the other hand, if people want to take Shareef or much more preferably, Kenny Thomas off our hands for nothing in return, where do I sign?

 

[OvechKiN]

I agree with half your post!

Bibby / Garcia
Martin / Garcia
Artest / Garcia

is a nice back court IMO. One of the better ones in the league when their in sync'.
Only thing is, our PF and C's suck!
Justin Williams is IMO a good start.
And Brad Miller should have enough value so that some teams may be interested.
As of right now, I would trade Douby, Price if it means we can get rid of KT, SAR and Miller. If SAR and Miller are the ones being traded, I would expect some value back.

 

[VF21]

For Miller, Kenny, and SAR - the only value back I want is another chance ... a better contract in return that ends sooner.

I'd take a large order of garlic fries and some draft picks.

 

[Rain man]

See- this is what I don't understand- people are SO ready to get rid of Miller/Bibby/Artest that they are willing to trade them for 50 cents on the dollar. I laugh when I see people suggest that we should trade Artest for JARRON COLLINS and the #14 pick, or say that they will take anything to get rid of Brad Miller's contract. Is Brad's contact bad? yes; should we shop him? maybe; should we be willing to trade him at the first sign of a decent offer? HELL NO.

Brad has proven to be VERY useful (a two time All Star) when used properly. His three years in Sacramento under Adelman featured seasons of 14/10/4; 15/9/4; 15/8/5. The noticable trend is that Brad's rebound numbers have gone down each year (10,9,8,6 per game his four years here), Plus, his activity level has gone WAY down. He is probably never going to be an All Star again, but there are a lot of teams (including us) that could use a guy that puts up 15/8 with a block and initiates the offense from the high post and can play pick and roll.

The idea that Brad is the albatross holding this team back is ridiculous. I maintain that a HEALTHY team last year with a decent head coach, and decent, defensive minded PF was a 50 win team.

Seriously- if Bibby and Brad are healthy and have defined roles from a competent coach; if Artest plays with the fire of 2005-2006, and you add in the efficent Martin in some sort of high post, Princeton offense, the team is not far off. The bench is solid with Garcia/Salmons/Price/SAR. The team is three-pieces away- 1) A shot blocker defensive minded big to play next to Brad; 2) a high energy big off the bench (Justin Williams); and 3) a coach who knows what the hell he is doing.

THe idea that we need to fire-sale Miller/SAR/Bibby/Artest to the first available offer is silly. If the right deal comes along, you consider it, but moving guys for garbage is not what we need. The only guy who we shouldn't ask questions about moving is Kenny...

 

[John Galt]

...or say that they will take anything to get rid of Brad Miller's contract. Is Brad's contact bad? yes; should we shop him? maybe; should we be willing to trade him at the first sign of a decent offer? HELL NO.

Brad has proven to be VERY useful (a two time All Star) when used properly. His three years in Sacramento under Adelman featured seasons of 14/10/4; 15/9/4; 15/8/5. ....

.....

You neglected to mention last year's 9/6/3.6 with 45% FG and 15% 3pt. Not to mention 9/3/2.5 with 40% FG and 14% 3pt in last years playoffs.

...there are a lot of teams (including us) that could use a guy that puts up 15/8 with a block...

...where is that guy? Doesn't resemble Brad unless you go back a long long way.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I got one question for you guys. Where the heck do you think we can take this core? A first round exit at best? Is that really worth getting nothing in return for these guys who are either fading or opting out of their contracts soon? The time to rebuild is now, there is no point in competing for a first round exit. Our goal should be moving on from this ugly mess of clumped together veterans and on to a young core that we can build into a contender.

 

[VF21]

See- this is what I don't understand- people are SO ready to get rid of Miller/Bibby/Artest that they are willing to trade them for 50 cents on the dollar.

Actually, I was talking about Miller/Thomas/SAR... and I wouldn't be all that upset if we kept Brad. It's the gaping, oozing wound at the power forward position we really MUST address, regardless of anything else we do this off-season.

 

[Bricklayer]

Our center is soft, weak, and can't jump. If he can be moved, move him and start over inside. He epitomized everything that needs to change, an so long as he eats up minutes we can't get a clean fresh start.

If you are stuck with keeping him make the best of it using him as a platoon player to help smooth the offense. But that's a terrible per $$ value.

Either way, Brad Miller eats lots of money and will never ever be a major cog on a title team. And the older he gets, the worse he gets. Not only is he breaking down, but his work ethic is terrible. You can be too scared or sentimental to move a guy and just watch him rot away until he no longer can be moved. The smart GM gets them out of town just before that fall, not after.

 

[VF21]

Our center is soft, weak, and can't jump. If he can be moved, move him and start over inside. He epitomized everything that needs to change, an so long as he eats up minutes we can't get a clean fresh start.

If you are stuck with keeping him make the best of it using him as a platoon player to help smooth the offense. But that's a terrible per $$ value.

Either way, Brad Miller eats lots of money and will never ever be a major cog on a title team. And the older he gets, the worse he gets. Not only is he breaking down, but his work ethic is terrible. You can be too scared or sentimental to move a guy and just watch him rot away until he no longer can be moved. The smart GM gets them out of town just before that fall, not after.

This is all well and good but I still firmly believe our first priority has to be the power forward slot. Yes, moving Brad would help matters but it might not happen. If it doesn't, it won't necessarily be because we're too scared or too sentimental. It might well be that he just isn't going to draw the offers. We might have to eventually do a bargain basement deal for him. Regardless, we still have to address the 4...

 

[Bricklayer]

This is all well and good but I still firmly believe our first priority has to be the power forward slot. Yes, moving Brad would help matters but it might not happen. If it doesn't, it won't necessarily be because we're too scared or too sentimental. It might well be that he just isn't going to draw the offers. We might have to eventually do a bargain basement deal for him. Regardless, we still have to address the 4...

Oh, there is absolutely no doubt that the 4 has to be priority #1.

But our 1,2,3 and 5 spots are dysfunctional and simply cannot return in their current form. This is removing a bandaid time -- the quicker and faster you do it, the less pain. This franchise can't wallow any longer or it will just become what it is -- the term "disarray" will begin to be mentioned alongside its name, and appropriately so.

 

[SacTownKid]

Our 2 spot???

 

[Bricklayer]

Our 2 spot???

In that it does not work with our 1 and 3. Aty least one of those three guys had to go to establish any kind of oncourt chemistry -- they simply do not play complimentary styles of basketball. Big Z is going to the Finals wiht the Cavs. Put him on the Suns and he is a fish out of water. Just having "talent" is not enough. It has to mesh and work together. Ours does not. They are random. So the 2 is a problem only in that we ahve the wrong 1 and 3 around it. 1 and 3 do not work together at all. 2 wants to run. 3 wants to walk. Neither 2 or 3 play defense. 3 won't pass. Heck 1 and 2 rarely pass. Y*ou have at least three different types of basketball on our roster, when the best teams are focused on one. We've got the soft/slow/good shooting/bad defense duo of Mike/Brad. The walk it up iso defensive thugball of Ron (his wingman in that was Bonzi who is now gone, but Reef is best suited for that style of play too despite the complete lack of thugness in him). And the run up and down the floor helter skelter Martin/Garcia + maybe Salmons grouping.

They do not fit together. Never will fit together. They must be trimmed, moved, even for less than full value. Because we can do a lot better with lesser players who are all on the same page than we did last year with these "talented" players who simply do not mesh. From that perspective does not matter which group is selected as being the one. But after the selection is made, the others should all be purged for players representative of the new style, or at least capable of playing it without getting in the way.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Our 3 doesn't play defense?

 

[Catalyst]

I got one question for you guys. Where the heck do you think we can take this core? A first round exit at best? Is that really worth getting nothing in return for these guys who are either fading or opting out of their contracts soon? The time to rebuild is now, there is no point in competing for a first round exit. Our goal should be moving on from this ugly mess of clumped together veterans and on to a young core that we can build into a contender.

Honestly, with guys like Artest and Bibby you'd be shocked how far a team can go.

Bibby is one of the most clutch shooters in the game, and Artest is arguably one of the most talented.

Couple this with a probable future All-Star in Kevin Martin and you have a very nice mix.

You throw in the right people around those guys, and add in things the Kings badly need like rebounding and shot blocking and things can change REALLY quickly.

Hey, my comments about sound like we should have a great team, right?

Well, there's a huge problem here. Most of our PFs and centers stink, to put it politely, and most NBA teams aren't going to win a lot of games if their big men aren't producing.

So now I'll answer your question a bit more directly. If the Kings got the right front line pieces (and managed to keep an effective backcourt) they could be a contending team again, in my opinion.

Easier said than done though.

 

[Catalyst]

Just having "talent" is not enough. It has to mesh and work together. Ours does not.

You really want to judge if talent works together based on a system which Eric Musselman created and taught?

Artest, Bibby, Martin and the rest of the team played in Adelman's system, even though Martin came off the bench, and Ron was only there for about half the season, but they were still successful and cohesive — even despite having glaring problems on the front line.

Maybe I'm just bagging on Musselman too much, but I personally don't think it's fair to judge if Martin, Bibby and Artest can play together based on the kind of team that guy ran.

Last year gives reason for pause, but not for an absolute judgment, in my mind.

 

[Bricklayer]

You really want to judge if talent works together based on a system which Eric Musselman created and taught?

Artest, Bibby, Martin and the rest of the team played in Adelman's system, even though Martin came off the bench, and Ron was only there for about half the season, but they were still successful and cohesive — even despite having glaring problems on the front line.

Maybe I'm just bagging on Musselman too much, but I personally don't think it's fair to judge if Martin, Bibby and Artest can play together based on the kind of team that guy ran.

Last year gives reason for pause, but not for an absolute judgment, in my mind.

Muss sucked, but IMHO you are suing him as a scapegoat so as not to have to face some major majpor problems on the roster. Its convenient. Its also only the tip of the iceberg. The aberration was the big run to close the previous seaosn, not last year. And looking back you could already see the cracks forming even during that short run. Mike was never comfortable, struggled. Ron inspired the team, but his offense was horrid (we passed it off to "rust" at the time). And the defensive effort for that burst will never be duplicatd with this crew. it was a short term thing driven entirely by wacky Artest. But the guys wll never listen to wacky Artest that way again. In fact the only way you ever COULD get a crew to listen to wacky Artest like that agin would be for it to be a whole new crew. Once you've fallen out of belief, you don't just go start listening again with stars in your eyes.

All that returning that entire crew could do would be scuttle the new coach on his way in, and posion our new kids wiht a lousy atmosphere. Not to mention ruin any chacne of Arco rebounding. They are at best paper tigers, as in look good on paper/in fantasy ball. But not all guys work together. And the entire crew of guys we just cannot trade becauyse they are all so good I think has 1 combined All Star appearance between them. They are just guys, not cornerstones. You can move "guys" at will, particularly when there is nothing worth saving to tear down (as opposed to when they are cogs on a winning squad).

Thsi is befroe we getto the question of how you could ever entrust your franchise to Ron Artest's nutty hands. Whether Brad (likely), Mike (less likely) Reef (definitely) etc. are in permanent decline. And whether Kevin might noit look to greener pastures as a FA if we have another crappy year wiht terrible locker room chemistry.

 

[Catalyst]

Muss sucked, but IMHO you are suing him as a scapegoat so as not to have to face some major majpor problems on the roster. Its convenient. Its also only the tip of the iceberg.

Musselman was terrible. How terrible he actually was will probably be a little clearer by how well our next coach performs.

I certainly don't lay all of the blame at Musselman's feet, but I think he played a large part in Sacramento's decline this year.

The drop off from Adelman was too rapid and too quick and the team really fell apart after a few months into the year under his direction.

Maybe you're right about Bibby, Martin and Artest not being able to co-exist, but I'd rather not take that chance of moving them for less than face value when they have as much talent as they do — especially when they had a nice run together in the 05/06 season.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Honestly, with guys like Artest and Bibby you'd be shocked how far a team can go.

Bibby is one of the most clutch shooters in the game, and Artest is arguably one of the most talented.

Couple this with a probable future All-Star in Kevin Martin and you have a very nice mix.

You throw in the right people around those guys, and add in things the Kings badly need like rebounding and shot blocking and things can change REALLY quickly.

Hey, my comments about sound like we should have a great team, right?

Well, there's a huge problem here. Most of our PFs and centers stink, to put it politely, and most NBA teams aren't going to win a lot of games if their big men aren't producing.

So now I'll answer your question a bit more directly. If the Kings got the right front line pieces (and managed to keep an effective backcourt) they could be a contending team again, in my opinion.

Easier said than done though.

Artest and Bibby are more than likely going to opt out of their contracts next year. So unless you can think of way to get this team into the WCF by next year without giving up any of those guys you're pretty much out of luck. Bibby and Artest are not something to build around, especially Artest who is completely unpredictable. How are we going to build a team if we're one and done every year and we have no cap space? MLE's, mid firsts, and trades using SAR and John Salmons aren't going to bag you much. These guys aren't going to take us anywhere, they're all nice complimentary players but a core of three nice complimentary players surrounded by a bunch of softies doesn't get you anywhere especially when only one of those guys has any value defensively. I don't know what sort of moves you have in mind but what realistic scenario could you possibly imagine that surrounds Martin, Artest, and Bibby with enough talent that they can compete with the likes of the suns, mavs, jazz, and spurs? Just because this draft has the "reputation" of being deep in big men doesn't mean there's going to be one that falls to us that fits our needs and is ready.

I'm sorry, I just have a hard time believing that the difference between us being an 11th seed and contenders is a coach and a decent froncourt upgrade.

 

[Catalyst]

Artest and Bibby are more than likely going to opt out of their contracts next year. So unless you can think of way to get this team into the WCF by next year without giving up any of those guys you're pretty much out of luck. Bibby and Artest are not something to build around, especially Artest who is completely unpredictable. How are we going to build a team if we're one and done every year and we have no cap space? MLE's, mid firsts, and trades using SAR and John Salmons aren't going to bag you much. These guys aren't going to take us anywhere, they're all nice complimentary players but a core of three nice complimentary players surrounded by a bunch of softies doesn't get you anywhere especially when only one of those guys has any value defensively. I don't know what sort of moves you have in mind but what realistic scenario could you possibly imagine that surrounds Martin, Artest, and Bibby with enough talent that they can compete with the likes of the suns, mavs, jazz, and spurs? Just because this draft has the "reputation" of being deep in big men doesn't mean there's going to be one that falls to us that fits our needs and is ready.

I'm sorry, I just have a hard time believing that the difference between us being an 11th seed and contenders is a coach and a decent froncourt upgrade.

Well, say we find a Carlos Boozer-like PF with the 10th pick in the draft. Someone who can rebound and run the pick and roll. That fills two major needs right there. Let's say this guy is capable of 20 points 10 rebounds and a block a game.

Next we re-sign Justin Williams, who for the sake of this argument develops really well and produces nice numbers for us.

Lastly, we sign someone like Darko Milicic to block shots and help defend the paint. Darko averages almost 2 blocks a game right now in just 24 minutes on the floor. He's got a whole lot of other problems, but... I'll avoid those for the time being.

I've just given you an unlikely scenario, BUT it's not too far out of the realm of possibility. Assuming we're able to make some trades happen in there.

We'd have a center tandem of Brad Miller and Darko Milicic. We'd have our Carlos Boozer-like rookie PF and Justin Williams.

That team should be effective enough to compete at a high level. How high would depend on soooo many factors, but it should be competitive.

This whole scenario doesn't work at all though if the player at the 10th spot isn't very good. Also, Milicic might end up being a bum and might not be worth taking a chance on.

And that I imagine is what being a GM is like. If I were GM I'd be sitting down with Darko to see where his head is at and to see if he's worth trading for.

And I'd be scouting potential big men in the upcoming draft to see if we need to trade up or if we'd be OK staying put.

A million different possibilities, but there's one.

 

[Vlade4GM]

You should do a little more research about this draft because the chances of us getting a guy like that especially in their rookie year at 10 is pretty slim and easily not enough to bet an entire season on which you want to do. As far as Darko, right now the most we can offer him is the MLE and don't you think Orlando is going to match the MLE? Orlando is most likely going to match every one of Darko's offer unless one team goes nuts and offers him too much, the only way to get him will be a S & T or if Bibby opts out. This isn't worth putting off a true rebuilding process yet another year.

 

[Catalyst]

You should do a little more research about this draft because the chances of us getting a guy like that especially in their rookie year at 10 is pretty slim and easily not enough to bet an entire season on which you want to do. As far as Darko, right now the most we can offer him is the MLE and don't you think Orlando is going to match the MLE? Orlando is most likely going to match every one of Darko's offer unless one team goes nuts and offers him too much, the only way to get him will be a S & T or if Bibby opts out. This isn't worth putting off a true rebuilding process yet another year.

I also suggested the possibility of moving up in the draft a few spots to get that kind of player. Keep in mind almost no rookies are going to come into the NBA and average 20/10. I did mention being capable of that though, in the future.

As far as what players will be there at the 10th spot... Carlos Boozer was taken in the 2nd round.

Amare Stoudemire was the 9th pick.

Andris Biedrins was the 11th pick.

Al Jefferson was the 15th pick.

Zach Randolph, 19th pick.

Shawn Marion, 9th pick.

Dirk, 9th pick.

Jermaine O'Neal 17th pick.

As far as Darko is concerned... I don't know what Orlando thinks about him.

What do you think Orlando thinks about him in regards to their future?

I never got the impression they felt he was a key piece moving forward. You feel differently?

 

[Rain man]

.....

You neglected to mention last year's 9/6/3.6 with 45% FG and 15% 3pt. Not to mention 9/3/2.5 with 40% FG and 14% 3pt in last years playoffs.
.

Actually- the omission was intentional, because the point of my post was to talk about Brad's three years with Rick, when he had a very defined role. When Rick was here, Miller played the "Vlade-role" and inititiated the offense from the high post. He played pick and roll with Bibby and looked for cutters. He knew his role and he thrived- and it wasn't ages ago, it was about 14 months. He did NOT have that role, or really ANY role with Muss.

As far as mismatching parts and how far the team can go- Of the four "starter quality players" on this team which of the following does not fit with the others- Bibby, Kevin, Ron, or Brad? The answer is Ron. It seems like Bibby and Ron both need the ball to suceed (Bibby in a pick and roll offense, Ron in an isolation offense). Brad and Kevin both play best in a ball-movement, Princeton style offense, and showed flashes of playing very well together last year. Brad also has the ability to play pick and roll with Mike, which makes Mike very useful.

Now the OBVIOUS problem with a Mike-Kevin-Brad core is that it is a defensive sieve, and for those with any sort of memory, not all that different from the failed Mike-Peja-Brad core under Adelman in 2005-2006. Even after Ron arrrived they got killed on the boards and had no defensive presence inside. But the team after Ron arrived was still good despite those flaws. I think that team could have been VERY good if Ron had been a 6-10 power forward instead of a 6-6 wing.

And therein lies the fix to this team IMHO- turning 6-6 Ron into a player who is the 6-9, 6-10 version of Ron (minus the need to have the ball). A defensive minded 4 who is essentially a role-playing shotblocker/rebounder. If Ron and some combo of pick, other filler can bring you that player you have a very nice team. You let Bibby-Miller-Kevin run what would be a very effective offense; hide Brad and Bibby's defensive liabilities with a guy who can body down low and erase dribble penetration, and put Salmons/Garcia into Artest's vacated position to play the Doug Christie/Tayshaun Prince long, athletic, defender/glue role...

With the right coaching and some luck on the injury front that is a good team. How is Bibby, Martin, Salmons/Garcia, defensive-minded big, Miller any different from the good Pistons teams a few years ago of Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace/Wallce....

 

[Bricklayer]

With the right coaching and some luck on the injury front that is a good team. How is Bibby, Martin, Salmons/Garcia, defensive-minded big, Miller any different from the good Pistons teams a few years ago of Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace/Wallce....

Do you mean other than being worse defensively at every position?

 

[Vlade4GM]

I also suggested the possibility of moving up in the draft a few spots to get that kind of player. Keep in mind almost no rookies are going to come into the NBA and average 20/10. I did mention being capable of that though, in the future.

As far as what players will be there at the 10th spot... Carlos Boozer was taken in the 2nd round.

Amare Stoudemire was the 9th pick.

Andris Biedrins was the 11th pick.

Al Jefferson was the 15th pick.

Zach Randolph, 19th pick.

Shawn Marion, 9th pick.

Dirk, 9th pick.

Jermaine O'Neal 17th pick.

As far as Darko is concerned... I don't know what Orlando thinks about him.

What do you think Orlando thinks about him in regards to their future?

I never got the impression they felt he was a key piece moving forward. You feel differently?

The argument that good big men have fallen in the past means that it will happen in this draft too is weak and very vague IMO. I don't like playing that game, you're going to have to give specific names from this draft. They don't just magically fall into your lap if you have a late lotto mid 1st pick just because they have for others. Also, JO, Jefferson, Amare, and Biedrins were all 18 or directly out of high school the years they were drafted which obviously isn't allowed anymore. Who knows if they would have fallen as much if they were scouted another year.

Moving up? ok, tell me how you're going to do that without giving up any of your core. Also, Bibby can't be traded for a draft pick unless he waives his right to opt out.

"Keep in mind almost no rookies are going to come into the NBA and average 20/10. I did mention being capable of that though, in the future."

Uh well you're the one that's banking on all of this happening by next year, how does a player that's "capable" of 20/10 "in the future" help us contend next year? You keep overlooking that Artest and Bibby have opt outs next year that they're more than likely going to use. Why should they stay?

As far as Darko, it's not my feeling really I heard somewhere that they plan matching any offer he receives (he's a restricted free agent). I've heard that they like him and definitely wouldn't mind keeping him and certainly don't want to let him go for nothing when they can get good value for him. The only way they let him go for nothing is if a team comes along that can pay him a ton of money that they don't want to match and like I said before we don't have that capability. Why wouldn't the magic match an MLE offer for Darko? You know how many teams would be willing to pay him the MLE?

 

[Sac.Kings]

the positions 4 and 5 have to be addressed one way or another. if it requires giving up bibby or artest then i must say i would do it. Even though Artest is extremely talented his off the court problems seem to be killing the team. The locker room seems to be having its fair share of problems as well. However people tend to underestimate losing so many games and the effect it has. Everyone gets mad and is easily frustrated. Muss didnt exactly have control of the team either. Bibby was struggling all year and Artest was playing well down the stretch though it meant nothing record wise.

Trading them for basically nothing would be something we would regret very quickly. If it was Bibby or Artest, Bibby would be the one thats easier to trade but i would try to trade Artest because with him on the court our offense just seems to come crashing to a halt. Bibby had one bad year because for the first time he had no idea of what he was doing. The plays sucked and the players had their hearts and will sucked out of them. He just began to jack up three after three. Plus he was injured so i take that into effect. For some reason i see Artest being traded before Bibby would ever be simply because Artest kills the offense.

As for the 4 and 5 we need a miracle to help our frontcourt. Miller can't play defense and his offense has come crashing down quickly, but if matched up with a defensive minded 4 he would be solid. Williams is definetely a keeper IMO because of his energy and hustle. A young shotblocking big would be a godsend. changes this offseason are much needed

 

[DocHolliday]

I stopped reading when I saw you deemed Ronnie Price a career back up. Give him a year straight of starting and watch what happens. That kid has talent.