Mike Brown

[SacTownKid]

From what I've heard Brown has been wanting some long athletic forward types for years now, but to no avail. If Brown and McNair were effectively acting as a GM team, I would not be happy with him, but I haven't heard or read that he is responsible for the makeup of this team. Overall, I get the feeling that McNair is cramming a team he wants down Brown's throat. If anyone knows differently, please let me know.

Where did you hear that? Brown has consistently proactively gone small in games from day 1. Even forcing minutes out of Fox, Davion, and Monk together despite how poorly they played as a trio. Unless Monte was advising him on how to run his rotations then that's Brown's decision 100%. I think it's clear that Brown trusts having as many playmakers on the floor as possible. If you have guard skills it trumps size all day in his book. Which makes sense because that has Warriors written all over it.

 

[Padrino]

From what I've heard Brown has been wanting some long athletic forward types for years now, but to no avail. If Brown and McNair were effectively acting as a GM team, I would not be happy with him, but I haven't heard or read that he is responsible for the makeup of this team. Overall, I get the feeling that McNair is cramming a team he wants down Brown's throat. If anyone knows differently, please let me know.

That strikes me as an overstatement. Monte is working within the considerable constraints of the new CBA. It's just harder than it's ever been to construct a perfectly balanced roster. If the rest of the league is trying to acquire the same "long athletic forward types", it's going to be difficult to acquire one without overpaying mightily in FA or surrendering first round draft capital in a trade.

 

[SacTownKid]

That strikes me as an overstatement. Monte is working within the considerable constraints of the new CBA. It's just harder than it's ever been to construct a perfectly balanced roster. If the rest of the league is trying to acquire the same "long athletic forward types", it's going to be difficult to acquire one without overpaying mightily in FA or surrendering first round draft capital in a trade.

And maybe some people are thinking that every athletic forward is an impact defender by default? Look at the C's, where is their long list of athletic forwards? They basically have 2 stars that are F's and that's it. Their defense comes from a crop of G's. Now, the Kings certainly have an issue athletically. This is why if Devin Carter can cement himself as this teams long term SG that will go a long way to solving those problems the best way they can be. The Kings have committed to DeRozan, Murray, and Domas in the frontcourt. It is what it is so the only real position to pick up the slack is SG and Carter is literally everything on paper you could want there. Long, athletic, and physical.

 

[nikefutbolero]

Hi.

Hello

 

[hrdboild]

I think people forget this easily and it's worth remembering... here are some of the All-Star and Hall of Fame players that Mike Brown has shared a locker room with in his career as either a Head Coach or Assistant Coach in the NBA before arriving in Sacramento:

Chris Webber
Ben Wallace
Mitch Richmond
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Lebron James
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Pau Gasol
Ron Artest
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Klay Thompson
Kevin Durant
Andre Iguodala
Draymond Green
DeMarcus Cousins

That's a list which includes 6 players who stand out as the best of their generation (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Durant, Curry). He hasn't just been a part of one championship run as an Assistant Coach, he's experienced that 4 times. That's starting out in training camp and going all the way to the series clinching win of the NBA Finals. 4 times. As an NBA head coach he's a two-time Coach of the Year award winner. There are only 3 other active coaches with multiple CoY awards (Popovich, Thibodeau, and Budenholzer).

I highlight all of that because I want to give context to this discussion. It seems presumptive to me that any fan is going to second-guess Mike Brown's methodology for dealing with player personalities, dolling out roles and playing time, and preparing his team to compete in the NBA. As a player, if a guy who has coached Kobe, Lebron, and Shaq (as a Head Coach) and Duncan, Curry, and Durant (as an Assistant Coach) tells you to work on something or demands that you earn playing time don't you think you ought to put your ego to the side and listen to him?

Or as a fan of the Sacramento Kings, having previously suffered through 16 straight losing seasons, you now have a Head Coach who inherited a 30 win team and led them to 48 wins in the regular season before taking the defending champs to Game 7 in the playoffs. And you're telling me that this isn't the guy you want on the sideline anymore? Already?

 

[kingsboi]

I think people forget this easily and it's worth remembering... here are some of the All-Star and Hall of Fame players that Mike Brown has shared a locker room with in his career as either a Head Coach or Assistant Coach in the NBA before arriving in Sacramento:

Chris Webber
Ben Wallace
Mitch Richmond
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Lebron James
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Pau Gasol
Ron Artest
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Klay Thompson
Kevin Durant
Andre Iguodala
Draymond Green
DeMarcus Cousins

That's a list which includes 6 players who stand out as the best of their generation (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Durant, Curry). He hasn't just been a part of one championship run as an Assistant Coach, he's experienced that 4 times. That's starting out in training camp and going all the way to the series clinching win of the NBA Finals. 4 times. As an NBA head coach he's a two-time Coach of the Year award winner. There are only 3 other active coaches with multiple CoY awards (Popovich, Thibodeau, and Budenholzer).

I highlight all of that because I want to give context to this discussion. It seems presumptive to me that any fan is going to second-guess Mike Brown's methodology for dealing with player personalities, dolling out roles and playing time, and preparing his team to compete in the NBA. As a player, if a guy who has coached Kobe, Lebron, and Shaq (as a Head Coach) and Duncan, Curry, and Durant (as an Assistant Coach) tells you to work on something or demands that you earn playing time don't you think you ought to put your ego to the side and listen to him?

Or as a fan of the Sacramento Kings, having previously suffered through 16 straight losing seasons, you now have a Head Coach who inherited a 30 win team and led them to 48 wins in the regular season before taking the defending champs to Game 7 in the playoffs. And you're telling me that this isn't the guy you want on the sideline anymore? Already?

I think eventually within time, posters will see that's its not a coaching issue but more of a foundational issue

 

[GWD]

I think people forget this easily and it's worth remembering... here are some of the All-Star and Hall of Fame players that Mike Brown has shared a locker room with in his career as either a Head Coach or Assistant Coach in the NBA before arriving in Sacramento:

Chris Webber
Ben Wallace
Mitch Richmond
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Lebron James
Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Pau Gasol
Ron Artest
Kyrie Irving
Steph Curry
Klay Thompson
Kevin Durant
Andre Iguodala
Draymond Green
DeMarcus Cousins

That's a list which includes 6 players who stand out as the best of their generation (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Durant, Curry). He hasn't just been a part of one championship run as an Assistant Coach, he's experienced that 4 times. That's starting out in training camp and going all the way to the series clinching win of the NBA Finals. 4 times. As an NBA head coach he's a two-time Coach of the Year award winner. There are only 3 other active coaches with multiple CoY awards (Popovich, Thibodeau, and Budenholzer).

I highlight all of that because I want to give context to this discussion. It seems presumptive to me that any fan is going to second-guess Mike Brown's methodology for dealing with player personalities, dolling out roles and playing time, and preparing his team to compete in the NBA. As a player, if a guy who has coached Kobe, Lebron, and Shaq (as a Head Coach) and Duncan, Curry, and Durant (as an Assistant Coach) tells you to work on something or demands that you earn playing time don't you think you ought to put your ego to the side and listen to him?

Or as a fan of the Sacramento Kings, having previously suffered through 16 straight losing seasons, you now have a Head Coach who inherited a 30 win team and led them to 48 wins in the regular season before taking the defending champs to Game 7 in the playoffs. And you're telling me that this isn't the guy you want on the sideline anymore? Already?

Interesting resume. Thank you for the time and research that must have gone into its development.

What may be relevant is that, with such an outstanding resume, why wasn't Brown chosen for head coach for openings on other teams? Rather, he languashed on the Warrior's bench for six years after having been fired three times as a head coach earlier in his career.

Perhaps there are other factors, facts, or opinions that owners and GMs are aware of that fans are not privy to. Over those six years there have been several opportunities for Brown to be hired as a head coach. It did not happen until the Kings' owner, a seemingly Warrior's system admirer, decided to give him a chance. A well done first year with a revitalized roster, but the team's performance has degraded since then with much the same main roster. The "why" is the central issue.

 

[sactowndog]

That strikes me as an overstatement. Monte is working within the considerable constraints of the new CBA. It's just harder than it's ever been to construct a perfectly balanced roster. If the rest of the league is trying to acquire the same "long athletic forward types", it's going to be difficult to acquire one without overpaying mightily in FA or surrendering first round draft capital in a trade.

Or maybe stop drafting older undersized guards in the lottery when you already have a glut of guards.

Keon Ellis, Jalen Brunson are examples of why drafting smaller guards in the lottery makes zero sense. You can find serviceable to good guards in the second round or free agency. It is hard to find quality forwards in those spots.

Monte has had multiple shots and messed them up badly. He is the reason this team is not performing. He just fails to understand and incorporate the concept of scarcity into his drafting philosophy.

 

[Kingster]

Where did you hear that? Brown has consistently proactively gone small in games from day 1. Even forcing minutes out of Fox, Davion, and Monk together despite how poorly they played as a trio. Unless Monte was advising him on how to run his rotations then that's Brown's decision 100%. I think it's clear that Brown trusts having as many playmakers on the floor as possible. If you have guard skills it trumps size all day in his book. Which makes sense because that has Warriors written all over it.

Sure, he's going small because other than Murray, what long athletic forwards do you have? He's forced into going small. If the best players on your team are small, what are supposed to do?

 

[Kingster]

That strikes me as an overstatement. Monte is working within the considerable constraints of the new CBA. It's just harder than it's ever been to construct a perfectly balanced roster. If the rest of the league is trying to acquire the same "long athletic forward types", it's going to be difficult to acquire one without overpaying mightily in FA or surrendering first round draft capital in a trade.

I agree with you on your last comment (See what follows). But the hardness of it all for McNair doesn't change the fact that Brown has been forced to deal with a roster skewed to small rather than long. This skew to small has obviously affected what Brown can do with this team. Doesn't really matter whether it is hard or not for McNair.

McNair has stuck to his "value" approach in the draft and FA to a fault. To a certain degree I have to admire this stubborn value approach. But like with any approach it can be taken to an extreme. The indirect consequence of such strategy has been to skew the roster to smalls instead of long athletic forwards. Why? Because he has to as you say "overpay" to get such players. And why is that? Because like you intimate the long athletic forwards are in high demand overall in the NBA. Why? Because in this age of 3 point shooting they are needed for switching on defense and guarding the point line. In other words, the smalls are a "value" for good reason in this NBA. (As an aside, it's very similar to the stock market where a company like Nividea can be valued at a 35 p/e and a company like GM is around a 4 p/e; there's usually a good reason for the disparity, and many on Wall St. would call GM a "value trap.").

In summary, McNair's value philosophy has left Brown with a roster skewed to more talented smaller players than longer athletic players. Brown is left to play the better smaller players more because that's what he has has. Now, if someone can tell me that Brown has been hand in glove with McNair on these FA and draft decisions, I'll be more than happy to change my opinion on this subject and make Brown complicit in the makeup of this team. If the facts change, my opinion will change. Until then, I see most of the reason for the mediocrity of this team due to the team that has been thrust upon Brown.

And yet I do have questions regarding Brown. I have no proof that Brown's coaching or lack thereof has affected the shooting of this team. However, I sure do have a lot of questions in that regard and if I had the means I'd do my darndest to get to the bottom of it. The first question I have is how exactly has the Kings' coaching staff been involved in Murray's off-season training regimen? What exactly did this regimen consist of? Did they supervise it? Were they ok with it? As a frustrated Murray fan, I want to know after two off-season's why Murray's shooting is worse than in his first year in the NBA. Similarly, I want to know why Heurter, who came into camp looking very physically fit and dare I might say, confident, all of a sudden looks like he did last year, unconfident and unproductive and not close to what he was in his first year. For that matter, when Mitchell was with the team, why did we see his shot look *worse* in his second year than his first year? His shot in his second year looked so robotic and mechanical compared to anything we saw in his second year. Why was that? Again, who was teaching him to shoot in the off-season and did Kings' staff have any influence on that?

 

[SacTownKid]

Sure, he's going small because other than Murray, what long athletic forwards do you have? He's forced into going small. If the best players on your team are small, what are supposed to do?

That's the thing though, he was going waaay small when he could have used Ellis or even played big. In fact, Ellis filled in for Davion and it worked. As soon as Davion came back from injury he was thrusted right back in over Ellis. Also, Brown was still starting Barnes and Keegan. That was plenty of size to bounce around without going that small. Look at the Warriors of previous years and it makes sense. They loved using those smaller, stronger, longer more athletic G's and it worked for them. Davion was a good defender but he wasn't the athlete they needed and just a tad too small. With Carter the Kings now have at least one of those I guess, lol. I think the reason Brown is still a bit iffy on Keon is his handling. No doubt, Davion had more solid handling ability than Keon. In the last game when Keon started getting a little sloppy with his handles, he immediately got punished.

 

[captain bill]

I was a huge fan of the MB hiring from the jump and think he was a great get. But his seat has to be warm.

I wonder who the top coaching FA is. Vogel?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I feel like Monte's seat should be warmer. Unless Brown is telling him not to get a proper frontcourt mate for Domas. They existed in this draft. Good news is they'll be in next year's class too and we'll have a lottery pick unless something changes.

DFS for Huerter or Lyles and two seconds ... Jordi owes us one. I guess not really, but why not.

 

[Kingster]

That's the thing though, he was going waaay small when he could have used Ellis or even played big. In fact, Ellis filled in for Davion and it worked. As soon as Davion came back from injury he was thrusted right back in over Ellis. Also, Brown was still starting Barnes and Keegan. That was plenty of size to bounce around without going that small. Look at the Warriors of previous years and it makes sense. They loved using those smaller, stronger, longer more athletic G's and it worked for them. Davion was a good defender but he wasn't the athlete they needed and just a tad too small. With Carter the Kings now have at least one of those I guess, lol. I think the reason Brown is still a bit iffy on Keon is his handling. No doubt, Davion had more solid handling ability than Keon. In the last game when Keon started getting a little sloppy with his handles, he immediately got punished.

Well, it worked against the Warriors. Didn't work against Houston, OKC and NO. The Kings needed more size, athleticism and speed. They got less size, athleticism and speed with the addition of DDR. Post DDR all the Kings coaches haven't been able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
IF, and it's a HUGE if, Murray would play like an All Star 3-point shooter and Heurter reverted to his Season 1 shooting performance, we'd all probably be pretty pleased as punch with the record and the fit. They were indispensable for this team working. Was it too much pressure? The lack of flow on offense due to the addition of DDR? More iso ball? Fewer touches? Less offense designed around getting them good looks? Maybe we'll never know. But this team, because of its size and lack of athleticism was never going to be a top 10 defensive team. The only way they could have survived was from their offense. And that is nowhere to be seen.

At this point I'm wondering if this is going to be the type of team to get way behind in getting a play-in spot, then with the pressure relieved, have a huge 3-point bust-out, only to fall short at the very end. Either that or maybe McNair decides to pull the pin.

 

[sactowndog]

I feel like Monte's seat should be warmer. Unless Brown is telling him not to get a proper frontcourt mate for Domas. They existed in this draft. Good news is they'll be in next year's class too and we'll have a lottery pick unless something changes.

DFS for Huerter or Lyles and two seconds ... Jordi owes us one. I guess not really, but why not.

Maybe or Maybe not. If we make the playin or better we will not. Or if a team in 13 or 14 jumps into the top 3 we will not either. This pick is only protected to 12.

 

[SacTownKid]

Well, it worked against the Warriors. Didn't work against Houston, OKC and NO. The Kings needed more size, athleticism and speed. They got less size, athleticism and speed with the addition of DDR. Post DDR all the Kings coaches haven't been able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
IF, and it's a HUGE if, Murray would play like an All Star 3-point shooter and Heurter reverted to his Season 1 shooting performance, we'd all probably be pretty pleased as punch with the record and the fit. They were indispensable for this team working. Was it too much pressure? The lack of flow on offense due to the addition of DDR? More iso ball? Fewer touches? Less offense designed around getting them good looks? Maybe we'll never know. But this team, because of its size and lack of athleticism was never going to be a top 10 defensive team. The only way they could have survived was from their offense. And that is nowhere to be seen.

At this point I'm wondering if this is going to be the type of team to get way behind in getting a play-in spot, then with the pressure relieved, have a huge 3-point bust-out, only to fall short at the very end. Either that or maybe McNair decides to pull the pin.

I'm saying that was the type of thing the Warriors did the year Brown got his rep as a great defensive coach. The thing is the Kings don't have a ton of personnel like that. They might now with Carter and Keon. Carter in particular would be gangbusters in that Warriors style of G defense. One big issue is the real prime athletic ability is still injured and won't be back for another month or so.

As for Keegan. Maybe it would make a difference but I did the math, although it's likely worse now, Keegan was getting like .6 less 3 point makes per game at one point this season when his 3's were a "disaster". 1.5 points might make a huge difference, might not, the defense would still be what it is of course.

It wouldn't surprise me if the team did that at the end. It's funny because last year the slide didn't start until January. I followed those 10 game snaps and without fail the Kings always managed to land right back at around .500 at the start of the year.

 

[Kingster]

I'm saying that was the type of thing the Warriors did the year Brown got his rep as a great defensive coach. The thing is the Kings don't have a ton of personnel like that. They might now with Carter and Keon. Carter in particular would be gangbusters in that Warriors style of G defense. One big issue is the real prime athletic ability is still injured and won't be back for another month or so.

As for Keegan. Maybe it would make a difference but I did the math, although it's likely worse now, Keegan was getting like .6 less 3 point makes per game at one point this season when his 3's were a "disaster". 1.5 points might make a huge difference, might not, the defense would still be what it is of course.

It wouldn't surprise me if the team did that at the end. It's funny because last year the slide didn't start until January. I followed those 10 game snaps and without fail the Kings always managed to land right back at around .500 at the start of the year.

Agreed. Two All Defense players would be nice!

 

[dude12]

Was listening to the 1140 afternoon drive show. Draper and Gary Gerold both have been around the team or practices and have said that the players are not following through on the coaching plan. Gary GeroI’ll was saying this. Draper was saying the plan isn’t to encourage the other teams to shoot 3’s, it’s the players not doing what they are supposed to or hard enough on that side of the floor. They are failing to execute the plan. They may do it for parts of games, on both sides of the ball, but inevitably, they go away from what they are supposed to do.

i think it’s a reason you saw Brown pissed off after the Blazer game. It’s why Monk was calling for a player meeting or an acco7ntability meeting by the players. I think every player needs to have some accountability in this. From Fox and Domas to the end of the bench.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Was listening to the 1140 afternoon drive show. Draper and Gary Gerold both have been around the team or practices and have said that the players are not following through on the coaching plan. Gary GeroI’ll was saying this. Draper was saying the plan isn’t to encourage the other teams to shoot 3’s, it’s the players not doing what they are supposed to or hard enough on that side of the floor. They are failing to execute the plan. They may do it for parts of games, on both sides of the ball, but inevitably, they go away from what they are supposed to do.

i think it’s a reason you saw Brown pissed off after the Blazer game. It’s why Monk was calling for a player meeting or an acco7ntability meeting by the players. I think every player needs to have some accountability in this. From Fox and Domas to the end of the bench.

Would love to hear more about this and why they think this is happening. Is it a Brown or a personnel issue? Both are concerning.

 

[The_Jamal]

Was listening to the 1140 afternoon drive show. Draper and Gary Gerold both have been around the team or practices and have said that the players are not following through on the coaching plan. Gary GeroI’ll was saying this. Draper was saying the plan isn’t to encourage the other teams to shoot 3’s, it’s the players not doing what they are supposed to or hard enough on that side of the floor. They are failing to execute the plan. They may do it for parts of games, on both sides of the ball, but inevitably, they go away from what they are supposed to do.

i think it’s a reason you saw Brown pissed off after the Blazer game. It’s why Monk was calling for a player meeting or an acco7ntability meeting by the players. I think every player needs to have some accountability in this. From Fox and Domas to the end of the bench.

Hmm, this seems dubious.


22-23: 33.4 3PA allowed
23-24: 33.8 3PA allowed
24-25: 39.7 3PA allowed

That very much seems like it's a plan to start allowing 3's. As bad as our 3pt defense has always been, we've done a decent job the previous 2 seasons of preventing teams from launching on us. They're now launching on us. So what gives? Did they drastically change the defensive concept this off-season and the guys aren't getting it? Because I might believe the coaches, but you basically have the same core of guys here that already showed they can prevent 3's and now something has obviously changed. I highly doubt it's just "effort" after 2 years.

That +Kev leaking the "defensive plan" off the cuff in the interview, I think this is a scheme decision, it's going incredibly poorly and the coaching staff is trying to pass blame. Not good, either way.

 

[SacTownKid]

Was listening to the 1140 afternoon drive show. Draper and Gary Gerold both have been around the team or practices and have said that the players are not following through on the coaching plan. Gary GeroI’ll was saying this. Draper was saying the plan isn’t to encourage the other teams to shoot 3’s, it’s the players not doing what they are supposed to or hard enough on that side of the floor. They are failing to execute the plan. They may do it for parts of games, on both sides of the ball, but inevitably, they go away from what they are supposed to do.

i think it’s a reason you saw Brown pissed off after the Blazer game. It’s why Monk was calling for a player meeting or an acco7ntability meeting by the players. I think every player needs to have some accountability in this. From Fox and Domas to the end of the bench.

Brown has to explain the plan then because we're watching the game from an even better perspective in some ways than a coach does on the sidelines. The Kings play off the 3, have since before even Brown was coach. Encouraging teams to shoot 3's is no different than playing off the 3 point line. They are essentially one and the same. Now, certain aspects of particular plays like not letting Fox handle a switch one on one if that was the directive is on the player not following through with the plan. Playing drop defense is just giving up mid range jumpers defensively. Soft doubling is playing 3 on 4 ball in the worst areas of the floor. Switching then not pressuring the ball is willingly putting yourself into a worse position and getting nothing out of it. These are all things that have gone on for 3 years. Because of that, it's more likely that the plan is failing than not. Or again, that the personnel isn't capable of executing it. If the idea is to help down this deep then run out, honestly, the Kings will have to be entirely overhauled. Even Keegan likely isn't quick enough to pull that off every night.

 

[SacTownKid]

Hmm, this seems dubious.


22-23: 33.4 3PA allowed
23-24: 33.8 3PA allowed
24-25: 39.7 3PA allowed

That very much seems like it's a plan to start allowing 3's. As bad as our 3pt defense has always been, we've done a decent job the previous 2 seasons of preventing teams from launching on us. They're now launching on us. So what gives? Did they drastically change the defensive concept this off-season and the guys aren't getting it? Because I might believe the coaches, but you basically have the same core of guys here that already showed they can prevent 3's and now something has obviously changed. I highly doubt it's just "effort" after 2 years.

That +Kev leaking the "defensive plan" off the cuff in the interview, I think this is a scheme decision, it's going incredibly poorly and the coaching staff is trying to pass blame. Not good, either way.

Part of it is that the league has simply gone cuckoo over the 3 ball. The disease of the 3 and lack of hand checking or physical exterior defense is killing the game. Like for real now. I saw a Youtube video talking about how that might be the reason the ratings are down and I think it might have been correct. Last year the C's were the top team shooting 42.5 3's a game. There are now 3-4 teams shooting over that mark with the Celtics shooting 50 a game! There are currently 7 teams shooting 40+. There was only 1 last year. This is a clear example of an antiquated defensive strategy failing more and more as more teams commit to a style that kills it.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

If there are 7 teams shooting 40+ 3PA a night it is beyond time to move the arc back and extend it out of bounds eliminating the corner 3. It doesn't make sense for the risk/reward to be broken that badly.