Middle Manager Monte

[kb02]

Scorecard (thus far):

1. No trades up or down the first round. Push though leaning towards a loss.
2. Let Bogi go for nothing; could've had a protected first, which likely would've been two seconds. Loss.
3. Traded Joseph, a 2021 SRP (LAL) and a 2024 SRP (Sac) for Wright and a Trade Exception. A win.
4. Traded Bjelly for Harkless and Silva. Push.
5. Traded a 2021 SRP for Davis and Trade Exception. Push to a Win. I'll say a win.
6. Traded a 2022 SRP for Kabengele, cash, and a SRP. A win for Vivek.
7. Traded Xavier Tillman for Robert Wooodard and a 2022 SRP. Push though leaning towards a loss.
8. Traded Kenyon Martin Jr. for Cash and a 2021 SRP. Push.
9. Drafted Hali. Win.
10. Drafted Mitchell. Win.
11. Drafted Queta. TBD.
12. Traded Wright for Tristan Thompson. Push though leaning towards a loss.

Bonus: GM Scorecard for Vivek:

1. PDA. An unqualified operations manager, who is now an ops manager for the Nuggets. Smart dude, wrong side of the business.
2. Vlade. A former star player, who had ZERO previous experiences as an NBA exec. Likely Vlade's first and last NBA exec experience.
3. MMM. A career second chair NBA exec. Does he have the balls to be a first chair exec? Tick tock.

 

[dude12]

He needs to hire the right head coach
He needs to make a deal that elevates the team, franchise not just a deal to make a deal.

I like his talent evaluations
I like how he hasn’t given out huge contracts to players who won’t move the needle
Some league personnel believe he’s stacked the PG position so that he can make THE deal which will hypothetically elevate the team.

As frustrating as it is too watch the product on the floor, I want him to make the right deal and not just any deal.

 

[sactowndog]

View attachment 10821

Scorecard (thus far):

1. No trades up or down the first round. Push though leaning towards a loss.
2. Let Bogi go for nothing; could've had a protected first, which likely would've been two seconds. Loss.
3. Traded Joseph, a 2021 SRP (LAL) and a 2024 SRP (Sac) for Wright and a Trade Exception. A win.
4. Traded Bjelly for Harkless and Silva. Push.
5. Traded a 2021 SRP for Davis and Trade Exception. Push to a Win. I'll say a win.
6. Traded a 2022 SRP for Kabengele, cash, and a SRP. A win for Vivek.
7. Traded Xavier Tillman for Robert Wooodard and a 2022 SRP. Push though leaning towards a loss.
8. Traded Kenyon Martin Jr. for Cash and a 2021 SRP. Push.
9. Drafted Hali. Win.
10. Drafted Mitchell. Win.
11. Drafted Queta. TBD.
12. Traded Wright for Tristan Thompson. Push though leaning towards a loss.

Bonus: GM Scorecard for Vivek:

1. PDA. An unqualified operations manager, who is now an ops manager for the Nuggets. Smart dude, wrong side of the business.
2. Vlade. A former star player, who had ZERO previous experiences as an NBA exec. Likely Vlade's first and last NBA exec experience.
3. MMM. A career second chair NBA exec. Does he have the balls to be a first chair exec? Tick tock.

I consider the Wright trade a loss.

One thing I noticed in looking at Memphis is the number of times they used later seconds to move up in the second round and get a player they like. Dillon Brooks and Tillman being examples.

Using 2 second round picks on a journeyman guard that 6 months later you trade for Thompson is a loss.

 

[ESP47]

I consider the Wright trade a loss.

One thing I noticed in looking at Memphis is the number of times they used later seconds to move up in the second round and get a player they like. Dillon Brooks and Tillman being examples.

Using 2 second round picks on a journeyman guard that 6 months later you trade for Thompson is a loss.

Yeah I've got the Wright and Tillman trades as no brainer losses.

Mitchell is far from a win at this point. He has been terrible offensively and pedestrian defensively so far.

 

[TTown Kings]

He's just a face-man carrying out Vivek's marching orders. Same as the first one, same as the last one, same as the next one.

 

[gunks]

Monte was set up for failure by Vlade.

He’s certainly been linked to a lot of rumors during his tenure here, but surprise surprise, nobody wants to trade for any of the soft, low BBIQ, overpaid, negative intangibles Vlade players still on the roster.

More than the inaction on the trade front, I’d say the glaring negatives from McNair are sticking with Luke for too long and not embracing the tank to get us a higher pick in his drafts…. But these failures can easily be attributed to our horrendous owner.

There’s been plenty of talk, and no rebuttals from the FO about how nobody on the roster is untouchable, so I don’t think his intention is to sit on his hands, I just think he’s the kid at lunch trying to trade an apple for some candy.

 

[The_Jamal]

Once again, the problem is how cluster****ed this FO is. What is Joe Dumars actual role? How much is Vivek meddling? Did Monte want to tear this thing down, but Vivek is forcing us to the play-in? Is Monte actually bad and gets to hide behind how much of a mess our ownership group is?

I've been fine with the moves up until this point as I don't think there were really any other paths to take if trying to win with this core the last year and a half. Lateral trades for Buddy/Barnes, etc wouldn't help us win more games. And I think Monte has been a huge win with his young player talent evaluation. But it's clear as day this needs a tear-down and there's really no more excuse to continue towards a playoff spot.

Head into next season with Monte's coach, Hali/Mitchell/top 5 pick and a bunch of future value from Fox/Barnes/Buddy/Holmes trades. That would give Kings fans something to be excited about and the actual potential to build a consistent playoff team.

 

[The_Jamal]

I consider the Wright trade a loss.

One thing I noticed in looking at Memphis is the number of times they used later seconds to move up in the second round and get a player they like. Dillon Brooks and Tillman being examples.

Using 2 second round picks on a journeyman guard that 6 months later you trade for Thompson is a loss.

The Wright trade wasn't a loss until he decided to flip him for TT for literally no reason. Easily the biggest head-scratcher move that made no sense.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

As frustrating as it is too watch the product on the floor, I want him to make the right deal and not just any deal.

So much this. In the vacuum of Bogi for nothing is what it would have taken to get those 2nd round picks that would be playing in Stockton right now. Probably some crap contract that hamstrung us in other deals.

I think Monte had to first convince Vivek he needed to clean house before he got the greenlight, which he has now. We'll see moves but they won't be aimless moves for moves sake, which is what many GMs since Petrie have done. Let's give it a while. It's unfortunate that this season should have been last season, but it wasn't, and I think that was Vivek/ownership saying they didn't want to eat Luke's contract yet. Sucks but is what it is. He's not digging ditches we can't get out of, which the last two morons did. So give him some credit.

 

[hrdboild]

I get that everyone is frustrated but there's not much Monte can do here. In order to trade you have to have assets that other teams want. He did trade Bogdanovic and Milwaukee screwed it up. He did trade Buddy and Lebron screwed it up. It seems likely that his hands were tied on the Coach Walton situation for financial reasons. Nobody wants Bagley. He could have let Richaun leave but he kept him on a reasonable deal instead and he remains one of our only trade chips. If he hadn't re-signed Fox (by far the best young player on the team at the time) Kings fans would have rioted. His first off-season was like a week because of the lockdown and that included the draft and training camp. Just calm down and give him an actual chance to do something before freaking out.

In the meantime, the areas he actually had control over (the draft and free agency) he's done pretty well with. Haliburton was a home run pick (certainly he got a little lucky there) and Mitchell might not be tearing it up but there's no obvious miss there yet. We were historically bad defensively and he drafted two of the best defenders available and they both fit needs -- backup PG and backup C. Fit has not been great so far but this is the same thing Morey did in Houston -- acquire assets and wait for an opportunity to use them. Why it's not working out so far... well, it's barely been a year for one thing. Sacramento does not appear to have a limitless budget like Houston did with their enduring popularity in China. And ownership seems reluctant to allow a full tear down, again for financial reasons. I feel like some more wait and see is reasonable. Even PDA got more of a leash than this before fans started calling for his head. Monte hasn't even had a chance to hire his own coach yet.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I get that everyone is frustrated but there's not much Monte can do here. In order to trade you have to have assets that other teams want. He did trade Bogdanovic and Milwaukee screwed it up. He did trade Buddy and Lebron screwed it up. It seems likely that his hands were tied on the Coach Walton situation for financial reasons. Nobody wants Bagley. He could have let Richaun leave but he kept him on a reasonable deal instead and he remains one of our only trade chips. If he hadn't re-signed Fox (by far the best young player on the team at the time) Kings fans would have rioted. His first off-season was like a week because of the lockdown and that included the draft and training camp. Just calm down and give him an actual chance to do something before freaking out.

In the meantime, the areas he actually had control over (the draft and free agency) he's done pretty well with. Haliburton was a home run pick (certainly he got a little lucky there) and Mitchell might not be tearing it up but there's no obvious miss there yet. We were historically bad defensively and he drafted two of the best defenders available and they both fit needs -- backup PG and backup C. Fit has not been great so far but this is the same thing Morey did in Houston -- acquire assets and wait for an opportunity to use them. Why it's not working out so far... well, it's barely been a year for one thing. Sacramento does not appear to have a limitless budget like Houston did with their enduring popularity in China. And ownership seems reluctant to allow a full tear down, again for financial reasons. I feel like some more wait and see is reasonable. Even PDA got more of a leash than this before fans started calling for his head. Monte hasn't even had a chance to hire his own coach yet.

so much this. This team has been swimming in sub par but not rock bottom for 10 years + now and Monte is getting so much grief for not making the same huge mistakes his predecessors did just so they looked busy. I get that its frustrating and I am definitely checked out but I just don't understand the sense of urgency some feel to "do something" instead of the patience to "do something right".

 

[The_Jamal]

I get that everyone is frustrated but there's not much Monte can do here. In order to trade you have to have assets that other teams want. He did trade Bogdanovic and Milwaukee screwed it up. He did trade Buddy and Lebron screwed it up. It seems likely that his hands were tied on the Coach Walton situation for financial reasons. Nobody wants Bagley. He could have let Richaun leave but he kept him on a reasonable deal instead and he remains one of our only trade chips. If he hadn't re-signed Fox (by far the best young player on the team at the time) Kings fans would have rioted. His first off-season was like a week because of the lockdown and that included the draft and training camp. Just calm down and give him an actual chance to do something before freaking out.

In the meantime, the areas he actually had control over (the draft and free agency) he's done pretty well with. Haliburton was a home run pick (certainly he got a little lucky there) and Mitchell might not be tearing it up but there's no obvious miss there yet. We were historically bad defensively and he drafted two of the best defenders available and they both fit needs -- backup PG and backup C. Fit has not been great so far but this is the same thing Morey did in Houston -- acquire assets and wait for an opportunity to use them. Why it's not working out so far... well, it's barely been a year for one thing. Sacramento does not appear to have a limitless budget like Houston did with their enduring popularity in China. And ownership seems reluctant to allow a full tear down, again for financial reasons. I feel like some more wait and see is reasonable. Even PDA got more of a leash than this before fans started calling for his head. Monte hasn't even had a chance to hire his own coach yet.

I think a lot of is the 15 year playoff drought. Fans are so fed up with this team, they're annoyed that there hasn't been a quick fix. When in reality, there never was with what Monte was given (a bunch of bloated FA contracts on a bad team with no future assets).

I agree there can't be indecision forever, but as you said, I'd rather make the right deal than just shuffle the deck chairs to make it look like something is happening.

 

[Joshoua]

Only one man turn this team around and you know who that is

 

[captain bill]

I get that everyone is frustrated but there's not much Monte can do here. In order to trade you have to have assets that other teams want. He did trade Bogdanovic and Milwaukee screwed it up. He did trade Buddy and Lebron screwed it up. It seems likely that his hands were tied on the Coach Walton situation for financial reasons. Nobody wants Bagley. He could have let Richaun leave but he kept him on a reasonable deal instead and he remains one of our only trade chips. If he hadn't re-signed Fox (by far the best young player on the team at the time) Kings fans would have rioted. His first off-season was like a week because of the lockdown and that included the draft and training camp. Just calm down and give him an actual chance to do something before freaking out.

In the meantime, the areas he actually had control over (the draft and free agency) he's done pretty well with. Haliburton was a home run pick (certainly he got a little lucky there) and Mitchell might not be tearing it up but there's no obvious miss there yet. We were historically bad defensively and he drafted two of the best defenders available and they both fit needs -- backup PG and backup C. Fit has not been great so far but this is the same thing Morey did in Houston -- acquire assets and wait for an opportunity to use them. Why it's not working out so far... well, it's barely been a year for one thing. Sacramento does not appear to have a limitless budget like Houston did with their enduring popularity in China. And ownership seems reluctant to allow a full tear down, again for financial reasons. I feel like some more wait and see is reasonable. Even PDA got more of a leash than this before fans started calling for his head. Monte hasn't even had a chance to hire his own coach yet.

Meanwhile Kuzma's averaging 27 14 & 3 in 2022. People criticizing Monte who ignore the Buddy/Bogi trades aren't being serious. That said, moving Buddy remains priority #1, preferably before the ASB. Somehow going into next year with Buddy on the roster would be a disaster.

More important we've had almost zero drama since Monte took over. Under both PDA and Vlade there was endless drama and leaks. None since. Monte being slow to make a big splash likely has a lot to do with that. Over the years it's become obvious that trying to get overly ambitious around Vivek can lead to some serious issues and infighting. I'm much happier waiting for bigger moves if it means the organization remains stable. There's likely a lot of "managing up" going on, including (and maybe especially) waiting to push for things like making big trades or coaching changes until Vivek convinces himself he thought of the idea first.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Only one man turn this team around and you know who that is

This guy?

 

[Woot!]

There’s been plenty of talk, and no rebuttals from the FO about how nobody on the roster is untouchable, so I don’t think his intention is to sit on his hands, I just think he’s the kid at lunch trying to trade an apple for some candy.

Love the analogy. I'm pretty sure no one wants to see a big trade that infuses major excitement and hope into the fanbase and franchise more than Monte McNair. Really hard to do. No one's looking to do the Kings any favors. And none of us knows what he's seeing and hearing. Results notwithstanding, I've supported most of what he's done - and tried to do - at the time. Not gonna slam him because they haven't worked out. But I think he knows what he's doing. Just needs to catch a break.

 

[kb02]

Monte doesn’t get credit for deals that fell through. Deals fall through. Good leaders move on.

I do find the narrative a bit funny, because Vlade got killed for his I had a better deal two days ago comment. That deal was settled until Cousin’s agents torpedoed it. So instead of two firsts, the Kings only got one. Or how fans are absolutely certain that Petrie would’ve picked Giannis after he said he would a few years after Giannis blossomed in the NBA. For every Peja, Petrie picked a Douby.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Or how fans are absolutely certain that Petrie would’ve picked Giannis after he said he would a few years after Giannis blossomed in the NBA. For every Peja, Petrie picked a Douby.

This is actually selling Petrie short. He was a very good drafter if you look at his history.

Petrie used 17 first round picks to draft players for the Kings, of these I'd say only 4 were of Douby level:

Great pick at slot (4):
Peja Stojakovic (1996 #14)
Hedo Turkoglu (2000 #16)
Gerald Wallace (2001 #25)
Kevin Martin (2004 #26)

Good pick at slot (6):
Brian Grant (1994 #8)
Corliss Williamson (1995 #13)
Jason Williams (1998 #7)
Tyreke Evans (2009 #4)
Omri Casspi (2009 #23)
DeMarcus Cousins (2010 #5)

Acceptable pick at slot (3):
Francisco Garcia (2005 #23)
Spencer Hawes (2007 #10)
Jason Thompson (2008 #12)

Poor pick (4):
Tariq Abdul-Wahad (1997 #11)
Quincy Douby (2006 #19)
Jimmer Fredette (2011 #10)
Thomas Robinson (2012 #5...wanted Lillard but Maloof finances forced a PF)

So with a lot of picks in the teens and twenties, Petrie still had a 59% hit rate and a 76% acceptable rate. Not bad at all. But on top of his first round picks, Petrie actually found more gems and solid players in the second round than should be expected:

Second round gems (2):
Hassan Whiteside (2010 #33)
Isaiah Thomas (2011 #60)

Very good for second round (2):
Michael Smith (1994 #35)
Anthony Johnson (1997 #39)

Second round played 4000 career minutes (3):
Lawrence Funderburke (1994 #51)
Tyus Edney (1995 #47)
Jerome James (1998 #36)

That's 7 useful players in the second round to only 9 misses:
Dejan Bodiroga (1995 #51...kinda doesn't count because he was a great European player who never came over)
Jason Sasser (1996 #41)
Ryan Robertson (1999 #48)
Jabari Smith (2000 #45)
Maurice Jeffers (2001 #55)
Corsley Edwards (2002 #58)
Ricky Minard (2004 #48)
Jon Brockman (2009 #38)
Tyler Honeycutt (2011 #35)

A 44% hit rate in the second round with two players who went on to exceed 40 WS is pretty great.

Anyway, Petrie, while being shoved out the door, told us to take Giannis, and Petrie knew what he was talking about as you can see from above.

 

[kb02]

This is actually selling Petrie short. He was a very good drafter if you look at his history.

Petrie used 17 first round picks to draft players for the Kings, of these I'd say only 4 were of Douby level:

Great pick at slot (4):
Peja Stojakovic (1996 #14)
Hedo Turkoglu (2000 #16)
Gerald Wallace (2001 #25)
Kevin Martin (2004 #26)

Good pick at slot (6):
Brian Grant (1994 #8)
Corliss Williamson (1995 #13)
Jason Williams (1998 #7)
Tyreke Evans (2009 #4)
Omri Casspi (2009 #23)
DeMarcus Cousins (2010 #5)

Acceptable pick at slot (3):
Francisco Garcia (2005 #23)
Spencer Hawes (2007 #10)
Jason Thompson (2008 #12)

Poor pick (4):
Tariq Abdul-Wahad (1997 #11)
Quincy Douby (2006 #19)
Jimmer Fredette (2011 #10)
Thomas Robinson (2012 #5...wanted Lillard but Maloof finances forced a PF)

So with a lot of picks in the teens and twenties, Petrie still had a 59% hit rate and a 76% acceptable rate. Not bad at all. But on top of his first round picks, Petrie actually found more gems and solid players in the second round than should be expected:

Second round gems (2):
Hassan Whiteside (2010 #33)
Isaiah Thomas (2011 #60)

Very good for second round (2):
Michael Smith (1994 #35)
Anthony Johnson (1997 #39)

Second round played 4000 career minutes (3):
Lawrence Funderburke (1994 #51)
Tyus Edney (1995 #47)
Jerome James (1998 #36)

That's 7 useful players in the second round to only 9 misses:
Dejan Bodiroga (1995 #51...kinda doesn't count because he was a great European player who never came over)
Jason Sasser (1996 #41)
Ryan Robertson (1999 #48)
Jabari Smith (2000 #45)
Maurice Jeffers (2001 #55)
Corsley Edwards (2002 #58)
Ricky Minard (2004 #48)
Jon Brockman (2009 #38)
Tyler Honeycutt (2011 #35)

A 44% hit rate in the second round with two players who went on to exceed 40 WS is pretty great.

Anyway, Petrie, while being shoved out the door, told us to take Giannis, and Petrie knew what he was talking about as you can see from above.

4/17 picks that you would define as great picks does not prove that he would’ve hit on Giannis. That is a 23% hit rate. Whatever his narrative is, I’m not giving him credit for something that he can’t prove. And I like Petrie.

Hawes was not an acceptable pick. Petrie should’ve moved up for his target: Noah. And Throb slipped. That wasn’t Msloof driven. The only true Maloof driven pick was Jimmer.

 

[hrdboild]

4/17 picks that you would define as great picks does not prove that he would’ve hit on Giannis. That is a 23% hit rate. Whatever his narrative is, I’m not giving him credit for something that he can’t prove. And I like Petrie.

Hawes was not an acceptable pick. Petrie should’ve moved up for his target: Noah. And Throb slipped. That wasn’t Msloof driven. The only true Maloof driven pick was Jimmer.

Okay so we're not going to give Geoff credit for a pick he never got a chance to make, but can we still give Vivek negative credit for thinking he was smarter than a 2x executive of the year award winner and subsequently making that pick himself?

 

[Spike]

4/17 picks that you would define as great picks does not prove that he would’ve hit on Giannis. That is a 23% hit rate. Whatever his narrative is, I’m not giving him credit for something that he can’t prove. And I like Petrie.

Hawes was not an acceptable pick. Petrie should’ve moved up for his target: Noah. And Throb slipped. That wasn’t Msloof driven. The only true Maloof driven pick was Jimmer.

This discussion isn't about moving up or down. If that were the case, Petrie should be crucified for not taking the best player each year. I wanted Noah as well, but there was no guarantee he wasn't going to be there when the Kings picked.

And this: TRob was indeed Maloof driven.

https://aroyalpain.com/2013/01/03/amick-kings-passed-on-damian-lillard-because-of-maloofs/

 

[kb02]

This discussion isn't about moving up or down. If that were the case, Petrie should be crucified for not taking the best player each year. I wanted Noah as well, but there was no guarantee he wasn't going to be there when the Kings picked.

And this: TRob was indeed Maloof driven.

https://aroyalpain.com/2013/01/03/amick-kings-passed-on-damian-lillard-because-of-maloofs/

View attachment 10823

“The safer option in case” does not equal the Maloofs we’re driving that pick.

Fredette was 100% Maloof driven—to fill the seats.

 

[Warhawk]

That's 7 useful players in the second round to only 9 misses:
Jon Brockman (2009 #38)

Why is there Brockman slander here?

 

[kb02]

Okay so we're not going to give Geoff credit for a pick he never got a chance to make, but can we still give Vivek negative credit for thinking he was smarter than a 2x executive of the year award winner and subsequently making that pick himself?

Vivek should’ve levered all resources, including Petrie.

 

[hrdboild]

“The safer option in case” does not equal the Maloofs we’re driving that pick.

Fredette was 100% Maloof driven—to fill the seats.

Any way you look at it that was just a poor pick. I liked TRob at the time but the team's PR people were already rumbling about how they thought TRob can play some SF as early as his first summer league so y'know, why didn't you guys just draft a SF instead?

 

[Spike]

“The safer option in case” does not equal the Maloofs we’re driving that pick.

I don't know how you can spin this to say it was not Maloof driven. Just because they didn't say "Robinson? Robinson. Robinson? Robinson!" doesn't mean that their actions and behaviors didn't drive the pick.

 

[kb02]

View attachment 10824

I don't know how you can spin this to say it was not Maloof driven. Just because they didn't say "Robinson? Robinson. Robinson? Robinson!" doesn't mean that their actions and behaviors didn't drive the pick.

Maloof driven equals the Maloofs dictating the pick like they did with Jimmer. That quote implies money concerns, which pushed Petrie to pick Throb over Lilliard. Petrie picked Throb.

 

[New Era]

Good lord.....it doesn't get much Kangzier than passing on Lillard to keep Jason Fricking Thompson

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Good lord.....it doesn't get much Kangzier than passing on Lillard to keep Jason Fricking Thompson

That's a misread. More like "would have taken Lillard if Maloofs committed to keep Jason Thompson, instead tried to fill potential hole at PF".

 

[Spike]

That's a misread. More like "would have taken Lillard if Maloofs committed to keep Jason Thompson, instead tried to fill potential hole at PF".

Equally as Kangzy.