Maybe we should stir it up...

[BawLa]

Bonzi won't take kindly to that, nor should he. He should be starting over KT anyway. And I think Garcia is a better shooter than Martin, so why not do that switch?

Remember, we traded for Bonzi with Bobby not Mobley. We never promised him a starting role it just worked out that way. Maybe it's wishful thinking but we thrived when we had that bench spark. And Bobby loved being the sixth man. Bobby arguably got more love and appreciation than C-webb. And Bonzi wants to be loved and embraced in potentially his new home. The downside however, is that he may be lured away in the offseason.

I understand that you are saying Bonzi should be a starter before Kenny on any team in any position but this thread was started because of Peja's inefficiency. We are now starting to see the potential of Martin in lieu of Bonzi's injury. And it is obvious we need to mix things up a bit. I will actually agree with you that Garcia is a better shooter. But I also firmly agree with VF that Garcia has not proven himself yet. I hope he does as a King because there is much talk of his potential. If Garcia had proven himself, we would have no problem trading Peja.

 

[VF21]

Ongoing assertions? I think you may have me mistaken for another poster here who may have been involved with the Martin/Garcia wars which I want no part in, thank you very much.

I just view Garcia as more of a shooter/ballhandler and Martin as a slasher/scorer, that's all. But I guess that's more of eventual roles with the team, a few years down the road, perhaps.

Oops...

Sorry, LP. I did mistake you for someone else - and I apologize.

I actually like the idea of Garcia being the shooter and Martin the slasher...

 

[LPKingsFan]

Oops...

Sorry, LP. I did mistake you for someone else - and I apologize.

I actually like the idea of Garcia being the shooter and Martin the slasher...

All good

And what do you say to Garcia shooting, Martin slashing... alongside Bibby, Miller, and KG?

 

[funkykingston]

Well, I still don't think I actually buy that -- its still 1 outside shooter, 2 midrange shooters (ironically our bigs), 2 post guys. Not like we've gotten any shooting out of any of the SFs we've tried other than Peja anyway. I mean, how much worse would we be than a team like Denver? Don't think it would work for other reasons, but considering the outide oriented games of our bigs in those circumstances the whole "we need to have a super duper three point shooter at SF" thing isn't one of them.

Denver has a couple things that the Kings don't, chiefly athleticism and a guy who can create his own shot at any time. Having Camby and Martin (and before injury Nene) as your bigs also means interior defense that actually challenges shots. The Kings weak defense, especially in the paint, means that they HAVE to rely on superior offense to win almost any game. Weakening their D with KT or SAR guarding wings is only going to exacerbate the situation.

This is the biggest point for me. Why weaken an already horrible defense? For the extra rebounding? Isn't that just robbing Peter to pay Paul? And how many extra rebounds will we get with SAR or KT guarding guys on the perimeter?

Back to Denver for a second. It isn't as if the Nuggets are looking like championship contenders right now. And what is often pointed at as their biggest weakness? Outside shooting.

I'm actually all for trading Peja right now. In fact I mentioned on another thread that I hope he's dealt with Miller and/or Bibby for one real star or packaged with KT and his bloated contract.

I agree that the Kings don't necessarily need to have a "super duper three point shooter at SF" as you stated, but they DO need (as all teams need) proper spacing on the floor. ESPECIALLY when you lack a guy or guys that can create their own shot. This team can't run isos for anyone outside of posting up Bonzi or Reef (and occasionally Corliss) so I don't know how you create an offense around jump shooters where only one of them can hit anything outside of 20 feet with regularity. The Kings offense would be a slower, less athletic version of the Trail Blazers late last season, albeit with a PG who can actually hit a jumper.

The two "midrange shooters" you mentioned are Miller and Thomas I presume? How many jumpers does either one take off the dribble? Well, KT does, but I cringe everytime. My point is that they take OPEN jumpers. Brad can still be shut down completely if an athletic big decides to pester him rather than help off him, as Garnett has shown. As you mentioned, starting KT at small forward means that he'll be guarded by smaller, quicker guys who can fluster him. His only recourse would be to take his man down low, into what would quickly become a very crowded lane on the offensive end.

The Kings don't NEED Peja at the three. But they need a small forward, not an undersized power forward who has never played on the perimeter.

 

[VF21]

All good

And what do you say to Garcia shooting, Martin slashing... alongside Bibby, Miller, and KG?

What do I say?

Let the games begin!!!!!!

 

[BawLa]

Denver has a couple things that the Kings don't, chiefly athleticism and a guy who can create his own shot at any time. Having Camby and Martin (and before injury Nene) as your bigs also means interior defense that actually challenges shots. The Kings weak defense, especially in the paint, means that they HAVE to rely on superior offense to win almost any game. Weakening their D with KT or SAR guarding wings is only going to exacerbate the situation.

This is the biggest point for me. Why weaken an already horrible defense? For the extra rebounding? Isn't that just robbing Peter to pay Paul? And how many extra rebounds will we get with SAR or KT guarding guys on the perimeter?

Back to Denver for a second. It isn't as if the Nuggets are looking like championship contenders right now. And what is often pointed at as their biggest weakness? Outside shooting.

I'm actually all for trading Peja right now. In fact I mentioned on another thread that I hope he's dealt with Miller and/or Bibby for one real star or packaged with KT and his bloated contract.

I agree that the Kings don't necessarily need to have a "super duper three point shooter at SF" as you stated, but they DO need (as all teams need) proper spacing on the floor. ESPECIALLY when you lack a guy or guys that can create their own shot. This team can't run isos for anyone outside of posting up Bonzi or Reef (and occasionally Corliss) so I don't know how you create an offense around jump shooters where only one of them can hit anything outside of 20 feet with regularity. The Kings offense would be a slower, less athletic version of the Trail Blazers late last season, albeit with a PG who can actually hit a jumper.

The two "midrange shooters" you mentioned are Miller and Thomas I presume? How many jumpers does either one take off the dribble? Well, KT does, but I cringe everytime. My point is that they take OPEN jumpers. Brad can still be shut down completely if an athletic big decides to pester him rather than help off him, as Garnett has shown. As you mentioned, starting KT at small forward means that he'll be guarded by smaller, quicker guys who can fluster him. His only recourse would be to take his man down low, into what would quickly become a very crowded lane on the offensive end.

The Kings don't NEED Peja at the three. But they need a small forward, not an undersized power forward who has never played on the perimeter.

So how many games into the season do we let Francisco loose?

 

[funkykingston]

And Bobby loved being the sixth man.

No he didn't. He always wanted to start and said so on many occasions.

Regardless, Bonzi Wells is in a contract year. He isn't about to go to the bench so that the Kings can start an undersized PF at SF. He wants (and deserves I might add) to start, play a lot of minutes, and put up the type of numbers that will net him a big contract in the offseason.

Besides, Bonzi is averaging more rebounds than Kenny's career average anyway. From the SG spot. If the point of starting KT was to add energy and rebounding, benching Bonzi negates that somewhat as well as weakening the team defense, as I noted before.

BawLa, I'd rather see a lineup of Bibby, Martin, Wells, Reef and Miller than the one you proposed. I think it accomplishes a lot of the same things without playing KT out of position. I think Wells swings to the 3 much easier than Thomas moves out to the perimeter.

Still, I don't think either lineup is ideal, and both neglect the fact that if the Kings trade Peja, they should get something back. If it's a draft pick and ending contracts, then I'd hope they'd ship out KT in the same deal anyway.

If not, then there should be a usuable player coming back the Kings. Without knowing who that is, it's hard to project lineups.

 

[ParniValjak]

So how many games into the season do we let Francisco loose?

When he proves with any sort of consistency that he can hit that outside shot. Quite frankly, so far this year he really has stunk it up from the perimeter.

 

[BawLa]

Besides, Bonzi is averaging more rebounds than Kenny's career average anyway. From the SG spot. If the point of starting KT was to add energy and rebounding, benching Bonzi negates that somewhat as well as weakening the team defense, as I noted before.

BawLa, I'd rather see a lineup of Bibby, Martin, Wells, Reef and Miller than the one you proposed. I think it accomplishes a lot of the same things without playing KT out of position. I think Wells swings to the 3 much easier than Thomas moves out to the perimeter.

Still, I don't think either lineup is ideal, and both neglect the fact that if the Kings trade Peja, they should get something back. If it's a draft pick and ending contracts, then I'd hope they'd ship out KT in the same deal anyway.

If not, then there should be a usuable player coming back the Kings. Without knowing who that is, it's hard to project lineups.

First off I want to say that you have provided some very useful insight that has changed my thinking. I like your counterproposal the best so far. Martin can slash, Bibby can hit big shots, Brad can hit the 18-20 footers, with SAR and Bonzi posting up. Obviously thats not all they can do. I don't even want to talk about defense as it has never been the focal point of our teams or organization. However, Bonzi could stay active on the boards while Martin breaks out for fastbreaks (something we could use from the SG). I want to keep this discussion to the existing team.

 

[BawLa]

When he proves with any sort of consistency that he can hit that outside shot. Quite frankly, so far this year he really has stunk it up from the perimeter.

I was referring to the number of losses it takes to give this kid some experience. Yes he has stunk it up this year so far but I think he will come around. Hopefully sooner than later because Peja is stinking worse than grandfather farts. If Peja continues the slump, then when do we give Garcia more minutes? When the team has no potential for playoffs? We need him to step it up and he needs minutes to do so. Besides, it would build his confidence more if he were starting with the big guys. Give him more of a defensive/pass energy type role until he can get some open looks and some confidence.

I'm not writing off the season, and I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket, but for the sake of conversation, when do we give him a shot?