Marty Mac's World: Trade Webber? Kings must have been crazy

[nbrans]

And yet oddly, we were doing just that with both Webb AND Brad paired together on the front line.

Odd how all three of those categories seem to follow #4 around.

Given that we won 50 last year, and are on pace to win 30 or so this year, think I'll take my points, boards AND wins thank you.

You're a guy who talks relentlessly about interior defense and toughness and shotblocking, and yet you're the #1 proponent of the simplistic notion of blaming the current demise of the Kings entirely on the loss of Webber. It boggles my mind. If you held Webber to the same standard that you held Shareef I'd hate to think what you'd say about him.

Webber's just not as effective since the injury, and the Kings weren't going anywhere with him on the team, just like the Sixers aren't really going anywhere with him. Granted, the Kings are going nowhere faster than the Sixers, but I don't understand the current glorification of Webber.

 

[bigbadred00]

I have to interject this. I am not a Webber hater, and rooted very hard for him during his stay in Sacto. His good far outweighed his bad - but there was some bad (i.e periodic loafing and obsession with referee calls). At his best he was a great players and very much the key part of the Kings when they were at their best.

However, when he was still with the Kings last year, IMO they had ZERO chance to win a title. Zero. They certainly were better off with him than now, though. The Kings needed to improve then in the same areas that we still talk to death. Webber was a liability on defense and in speed. His inside game was negligible which left us a jump shooting team reliant on 20 footers. Sound familiar? We needed help.

Petrie did not get help. It was an awful awful trade. Still, they had no chance of winning a title last year and it was time to do something smart. I said something smart. Not webber for corliss, kt and skinner. Geez.

So now we have a less than zero chance of winning the title (can't even make the playoffs), atleast last year we made the playoffs and were looking like a playoff team with Webber, same can't be said this year.

NBRANS- Our defence is still terrible, you can't blame our defensive problems solely on Webber, Bibby is terrible, Brad is terrible, SAR has played well in Spurts, Bonzi is atbest slightly above average. Yes Webber is a liability but no more than anyone else on our starting lineup now. Knee or no knee. Until Peja and Bobby got hurt last year our team was in pretty good shape, did you guys pay any attention at all to our team last year. He's averaging 10.4 Rebs a game (top 10 in the league), and close to 20 points a game, he's averaging decent in steals and blocks for a 1 legged man. All i know is Philly has a better record than us, they have a much better shot at making the playoffs and they have much better young players than Us so when Webber finally does compute, they'll be in better shape than us. Currently I don't see what the f- petrie is doing, I see our team is struggling, giving up more points than scored and have many mroe losses than Wins. I see our team not having a direction, I see our team not having a leader, those are 2 things Philly easily has a leg up on us.

If your going to kill Webber, you better start bashing Peja and Petrie cause currently their effectiveness is much less than Webber and that's the POV you should use. Webber + Iverson might not equal a title, but Kings with Peja, Bibby and Brad right now don't even equal the playoffs.

 

[nbrans]

NBRANS- Our defence is still terrible, you can't blame our defensive problems solely on Webber, Bibby is terrible, Brad is terrible, SAR has played well in Spurts, Bonzi is atbest slightly above average. Yes Webber is a liability but no more than anyone else on our starting lineup now. Knee or no knee. Until Peja and Bobby got hurt last year our team was in pretty good shape, did you guys pay any attention at all to our team last year. He's averaging 10.4 Rebs a game (top 10 in the league), and close to 20 points a game, he's averaging decent in steals and blocks for a 1 legged man. All i know is Philly has a better record than us, they have a much better shot at making the playoffs and they have much better young players than Us so when Webber finally does compute, they'll be in better shape than us. Currently I don't see what the f- petrie is doing, I see our team is struggling, giving up more points than scored and have many mroe losses than Wins. I see our team not having a direction, I see our team not having a leader, those are 2 things Philly easily has a leg up on us.

If your going to kill Webber, you better start bashing Peja and Petrie cause currently their effectiveness is much less than Webber and that's the POV you should use. Webber + Iverson might not equal a title, but Kings with Peja, Bibby and Brad right now don't even equal the playoffs.

I agree that our defense is still bad, but SAR is at least an improvement over Webber in that area. I don't intend to "kill Webber," but people around here are acting like he is Jesus, Moses and Michael Jordan rolled into one, instead of seeing him for what he is -- an aging, hobbled former superstar who, while possessing great heart, can't play a lick of defense and is not the player he used to be.

Webber might have been good for a few more wins in the short term, but it was only a matter of time before the rebuilding process began. Better to start now without a 20 million contract than three years from now.

 

[bigbadred00]

You're a guy who talks relentlessly about interior defense and toughness and shotblocking, and yet you're the #1 proponent of the simplistic notion of blaming the current demise of the Kings entirely on the loss of Webber. It boggles my mind. If you held Webber to the same standard that you held Shareef I'd hate to think what you'd say about him.

Webber's just not as effective since the injury, and the Kings weren't going anywhere with him on the team, just like the Sixers aren't really going anywhere with him. Granted, the Kings are going nowhere faster than the Sixers, but I don't understand the current glorification of Webber.

Did we win more games than we lost in every year but the injury year with Webber? I'm pretty sure we did. What direction is this team going in? Nowhere at all? All that can be said is that Philly is better off since the Trade which is easily proven by records while the Kings aren't. It's not like Brad is back there defending the paint, nor is SAR, we haven't had a serious paint defence since Webber was healthy, Vlade was still young and flopping, and we had skinny man (whatever his name was) and Pollard. Since then we really haven't. There are only a couple of teams in the league with great paint defenders and most are doing alright in the league, I wouldnt' count Dampier, but there is good D in the middle in SA, Det, Indy (maybe), Minne, Houston (Eh?), and Miami, most of those teams are contenders. If we could get a great defender I guess we'd be alright but then again we'd have to move someone.

Another thing I know is the probable reason we kept Peja instead of Webber was due to his age, his "ability" and his shooting as well as not having an injury bug like Webber has. Well he is still younger than Webber, but Peja has been injured more, has been much less effective on the court and his excellence in shooting has been a far cry of what it used to be. Webber has atleast played through the pain and has been way more effective in all aspects of the game then his supposed effectiveness leader in Peja. We've all seen how ineffective Bibby and Brad have been at times since the Trade which doesn't really help when we were supposed to build around these guys.

I'm hoping we move Peja and get a paint defender through the draft (Mr. Williams from Duke would be a great answer) and then we figure out the direction we want to go (I vote for keeping Bonzi and Bibby and I guess SAR and then keeping some of the young guys and gutting the rest of the team. That's just my opinion though).

 

[Bricklayer]

You're a guy who talks relentlessly about interior defense and toughness and shotblocking, and yet you're the #1 proponent of the simplistic notion of blaming the current demise of the Kings entirely on the loss of Webber. It boggles my mind. If you held Webber to the same standard that you held Shareef I'd hate to think what you'd say about him.

Webber's just not as effective since the injury, and the Kings weren't going anywhere with him on the team, just like the Sixers aren't really going anywhere with him. Granted, the Kings are going nowhere faster than the Sixers, but I don't understand the current glorification of Webber.

Webber had half of the interior equation still right -- he rebounds the ball. Especially on the defensive glass (as an example he grabs 7.8 def rebounds a game this year, 1.4 more than Reef's TOTAL rebounds, and 3 possessions of defense glasswork above Reef's anemic 4.6 total). He also, BTW, had an excuse why he couldn't do the rest.

But in any case, ideal interior defender or not, the simple fact of the matter was the man could play. Well enough on his good nights to make the defensive woes an afterthought. And just as importantly, as the centerpiece we played as a team. A unit with a leader and director. Not a perfect one. But one who kept us all pointed in the same direction.

With Webb we had a hole to patch up -- interior defense/shotblocking. He could not, and cannot, be that guy any longer. But that's what it was, A hole (no pun intended). Enough to take a former 60 win club and make it a 50 win club. But now of a sudden we have more holes than you can shake a stick at. We don't defend, or rebound, or have a leader. And so the 50 win club then becomes a 30 win club in search of an identity. The "glorification" is nothing more than people belatedly realizing just how important that trait is. Its not in numbers, stats, even abilities. When Webber stepped on the floor we were simply a better team than we are now. And you can try to quantify it with superior rebounding, superior assists whatever. But the methodology is really secondary. We went from 20-10-5 to 16-6-3, but its more than that. We went from significance to insignificance. From being THE Sacramento Kings, to being 5 guys wearing the uniform (or silky golden lingerie depending on the night).

 

[bigbadred00]

I agree that our defense is still bad, but SAR is at least an improvement over Webber in that area. I don't intend to "kill Webber," but people around here are acting like he is Jesus, Moses and Michael Jordan rolled into one, instead of seeing him for what he is -- an aging, hobbled former superstar who, while possessing great heart, can't play a lick of defense and is not the player he used to be.

Webber might have been good for a few more wins in the short term, but it was only a matter of time before the rebuilding process began. Better to start now without a 20 million contract than three years from now.

SAR still doesn't really fit the needs of the team. Yes he's been effective but we don't need a "decent defender" we need Ben Wallace to more than make up for the ineffectiveness of the defenders at most other key positions. It's like trying to stop a flood with a couple of pieces of plywood to make a damn, it's so ineffective it doesn't matter.

You keep bringing up the contract situation, but it looks like we are no better than we were last year. The guys we replaced Webber's contract with are still there and are still only effective if the starter he is supposed to replace is injured. If we are really trying to rebuild, I'd start by gutting all of the players in their prime. Obviously most of our quote on quote star players such as Brad, Peja, Bibby and our good role players such as Kenny are at the age they should be winning and they aren't. If we want to rebuild instead of doing a piece-wise piece of crap slow rebuild that we are in the middle of, we should do things more drastically (IE portland). Obviously that wasn't Petrie's intention when he signed SAR in the offseason but seems to be the way the team is leaning towards. Gut the team, get some young guys if that's the direction were seeking, don't bulk up on long term deals to players who are already at the pinnicle of their skill.

 

[bigbadred00]

And yes 50 or so wins with no direction is better than 30 wins and no direction with palyesr the same age and the same contract problem. And yes making the playoffs is a million times better than being in the lottery.

 

[nbrans]

With Webb we had a hole to patch up -- interior defense/shotblocking. He could not, and cannot, be that guy any longer. But that's what it was, A hole (no pun intended). Enough to take a former 60 win club and make it a 50 win club. But now of a sudden we have more holes than you can shake a stick at. We don't defend, or rebound, or have a leader. And so the 50 win club then becomes a 30 win club in search of an identity. The "glorification" is nothing more than people belatedly realizing just how important that trait is. Its not in numbers, stats, even abilities. When Webber stepped on the floor we were simply a better team than we are now. And you can try to quantify it with superior rebounding, superior assists whatever. But the methodology is really secondary. We went from 20-10-5 to 16-6-3, but its more than that. We went from significance to insignificance. From being THE Sacramento Kings, to being 5 guys wearing the uniform (or silky golden lingerie depending on the night).

I agree with the identity, leader, glue argument. The Kings can replace scoring, the rebounding is basically what it was last year, the defense is probably slightly better, but the leadership is gone. That's huge, that's what CWebb meant, etc. etc.

But the thing is, the Sixers have his heart, leadership, abilities, inside play... and they're not very good. Leadership is great, but it can only take you so far. Webber's game is not what it was, and all the heart in the world can't disguise one of the worst defensive games in the entire league. That's not just something to wipe away, you're talking about putting two of the worst defensive players in the league, Bibby and Webber, on the same team. Add in the fact that Brad Miller has forgotten how to play defense and I really don't know that all the heart in the world could have saved the Kings even WITH Webber.

His loss means a lot, but as Webber continued to age the Kings would have been plugging as many holes as they were filling. His leadership has yet to be replaced, but that doesn't mean it wasn't high time to start over.

 

[nbrans]

And yes 50 or so wins with no direction is better than 30 wins and no direction with palyesr the same age and the same contract problem. And yes making the playoffs is a million times better than being in the lottery.

50 wins wouldn't have been a given if Webber were here. If Brad played defense as badly as he did this year and rebounded two fewer a game, if Peja didn't show up, if Bibby was inconsistent it would have been a major struggle. Add in the fact that the bench would probably be even worse since we wouldn't even have had someone as good as Kenny Thomas off the bench and you have a recipe for a disaster just like the current one.

 

[Bricklayer]

50 wins wouldn't have been a given if Webber were here. If Brad played defense as badly as he did this year and rebounded two fewer a game, if Peja didn't show up, if Bibby was inconsistent it would have been a major struggle. Add in the fact that the bench would probably be even worse since we wouldn't even have had someone as good as Kenny Thomas off the bench and you have a recipe for a disaster just like the current one.

You are assuming that all of the above things were somehow inevitable, as opposed to being direct reflections to the changes in the surrounding team.

 

[nbrans]

You are assuming that all of the above things were somehow inevitable, as opposed to being direct reflections to the changes in the surrounding team.

And you're assuming that they're all DUE to Webber being gone, which is the bigger leap. Miller's one-on-one defense is his responsibility (it's not like Webber would have led by example), Peja is struggling despite having an actual inside presence on offense and ostensbily being the number one option (a role he thrived in two years ago without Webber). Maybe Bibby's suffering on offense from Webber being gone, but as you pointed out his numbers aren't that far off. So where is Webber in all of this?

 

[Bricklayer]

And you're assuming that they're all DUE to Webber being gone, which is the bigger leap. Miller's one-on-one defense is his responsibility (it's not like Webber would have led by example), Peja is struggling despite having an actual inside presence on offense and ostensbily being the number one option (a role he thrived in two years ago without Webber). Maybe Bibby's suffering on offense from Webber being gone, but as you pointed out his numbers aren't that far off. So where is Webber in all of this?

Peja did not mesh as well with Webber as he did with Vlade. He still benefitted immensely from the superior passing, and from a guy who recognized his role and position in the offense and knew where he'd be on the floor.

As for the rest -- roles and leadership. Everybody knew what their role was, what was expected, and there was an internal team "skeleton" where if you failed, if you let somebody down, you knew how you'd failed in your role, and who you'd let down. Now we have a free for all where that teammate is as much a competitor as a helper, where guys are too worried about getting their own to help their teammates, and where nobody knows where the other guy/guys is going to be or who they can depend on. There is no sense of shared purpose or goals. And so people who were already bad at things become worse, nobody does the little things, etc.

Rather than arguing for some sort of magical mystical convergence where it just conveniently happens that all of our holdover players simultaneously take a step backward together, I think the much safer bet is to look at what changed. Well the coach didn't change. The system didn't change. Peja/Bibby/Miller didn't change. What changed was the removal of the guys who made the holdovers better and more responsible.

 

[TXSactoFan]

i dont think the issue is the kings trading weber. I thnk that decision looked good financially at that time. I think the issue is what petrie got for him.

i dont understand why petrie pulled the plug for the bunch of guys that adelman doesnt even play. i hadnt even heard of skinner and kenny thomas at that time.

 

[nbrans]

Peja did not mesh as well with Webber as he did with Vlade. He still benefitted immensely from the superior passing, and from a guy who recognized his role and position in the offense and knew where he'd be on the floor.

As for the rest -- roles and leadership. Everybody knew what their role was, what was expected, and there was an internal team "skeleton" where if you failed, if you let somebody down, you knew how you'd failed in your role, and who you'd let down. Now we have a free for all where that teammate is as much a competitor as a helper, where guys are too worried about getting their own to help their teammates, and where nobody knows where the other guy/guys is going to be or who they can depend on. There is no sense of shared purpose or goals. And so people who were already bad at things become worse, nobody does the little things, etc.

Rather than arguing for some sort of magical mystical convergence where it just conveniently happens that all of our holdover players simultaneously take a step backward together, I think the much safer bet is to look at what changed. Well the coach didn't change. The system didn't change. Peja/Bibby/Miller didn't change. What changed was the removal of the guys who made the holdovers better and more responsible.

I agree with the leadership and glue points, and the Kings probably would have won more games on chemistry alone. But there's no guarantee that the same Kings wouldn't have struggled with Webber on board.

Miller's defensive lapses would have been exposed even more with Webber at his side. Shareef may not be a lane-clogger/shotblocker, but at least he can keep people in front of him. Not so with Webber. And there's a strong possibility that Miller is not the same defensively because of the aftereffects of his broken leg, which has nothing to do with Webber.

I certainly don't think Webber would have helped Peja find his game. He played long enough with Peja to know how to set Peja up, but he showed no inclination after his return from injury to help Peja continue to do what he does best, nor did he have the mobility to set good screens and free Peja up. Not only did Webber and Peja engage in a stupid, wimpy alpha-male battle of words/threats, Peja would not have had the benefit of an inside game to stretch the defense -- Peja's getting good looks from three again in part because the Kings actually have a post presence. Peja's struggles this season are entirely his own doing, and partially the result of unfortunate injuries.

As for Bibby, his offense has been so-so, and he would have probably benifitted from running the offense more through Webber. But Webber didn't get Bibby to play defense, which is where he continues to hurt the team the most.

Is it just a coincidence that Webber is not really getting the Sixers anywhere even though they have a superstar playing better than ever and three very good role players? That the whole idea of matching Webber with a shotblocker still hasn't masked Webber's defensive liabilities?

With Webber on the Kings... who knows, maybe they would have won those 50 games and gotten spanked in the playoffs just like the year before that and the year before that. The steady decline would have continued while Webber kept up his "I'm the man" charade even though he no longer had the ability to be the man. At least now the Kings can see the real writing on the wall and get going on the rebuilding project.

 

[love_them_kings]

That's simply wrong. Peja had his carrear year with Web out. Divac and Doug were responsible for Peja's success much more then Webber. In the meantime Kings lost all 3 + Bobby Jackson...
The article is just a trash.

Btw, the sixers right now have pretty much the same record with Web they had with his replacements last year. CWeb is still good player, but he is not difference maker anymore and his departure is not the root of the problem. I think Brick did much better analysis, so in short, the problem is that we have pieces (players and the coach) that don't fit well toghether.

Webb may or may not be a difference maker for the 76ers, but he was for the Kings. With Webb in our line up there is no way we would suck so badly right now.

 

[love_them_kings]

My original post met an unfortunate and grisly demise, but I basically said:

1. Don't think you can ignore Philly's win/loss record
2. There are plenty of reasons the Kings suck besides not having Webber
3. C-Webb's defense sucks
4. Can't win many games with a gaping hole on defense
5. People overstate Webber's current effectivenss
6. Some words of unmatched genius that will forever be lost in the sands of time. You'll just have to take my word for it.

guess we'd better dump Bibby immediately then, right?

 

[nbrans]

guess we'd better dump Bibby immediately then, right?

Affirmative, captain.