Mark Kreidler: Webber casualty of transition

Warhawk

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http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/14221433p-15047155c.html

One year later, we can safely dispense with the notion that the Chris Webber trade signaled the beginning of the end for the Kings.

Vlade Divac's leaving took care of that months before.

Oh, nobody says it that way; it's not elegant enough. What they say is that Divac's departure to the Lakers before the 2004-05 season marked the beginning of the "transition," as in, "The Kings went into a transition from a contender to a dog."

Well, they don't even really say that, exactly, but you get the gist. Divac left, and that was the official point of decline, which Doug Christie's subsequent trade to Orlando accentuated.

And then, one year ago today, Geoff Petrie sent Webber to Philadelphia, brought Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and Brian Skinner to Sacramento, sat back, and listened to one national commentator after another explain that the Kings had simply given up.

Not at all. It only felt that way for a while.

A year later, the Kings are watchable again, but they crawled over broken glass to get there. The roster - Ron Artest, Bonzi Wells, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Francisco García, Kevin Martin in a major role - is virtually unrecognizable from the one Webber played with in Sacramento, and after seeing Sacramento go 7-3 over the last 10 games it's tempting to conclude that that's not entirely a bad thing.

But it's a secondary point. The primary point is this: The Kings of old were dead not long after Webber's desperation three-pointer missed at Minnesota, eliminating Rick Adelman's team from the second round of the 2004 playoffs and ushering in the trauma that followed. It was one long funeral after that, Divac to Christie to Webber and beyond.

"There was no growth left with where we were," Petrie said Wednesday, and consider the truth there. Divac and Christie are out of the game. Webber is piling up numbers and playing no defense in Philadelphia in service of a sub-.500 team, and whatever else you say about the 76ers-Kings deal, the one thing beyond dispute is that Philly sure didn't trade for Webber to achieve mediocrity.

But that's where the Sixers are, mediocre and now saddled with precisely the contract Petrie wanted out of. Webber will cost the 76ers more than $19 million this season, $20 million next season and $22 million the season after that. The Webber of old might have mitigated some of that expense with his athletic play and game-changing ability, but that's not the guy Philadelphia acquired.

But it was no steal on the other end. You know that. For many Kings fans, the lights went out when Webber left. He was the charismatic face of the franchise, and he had been a star. It's hard to put that down, no matter what the reality looks like on the floor.

For that matter, the deal was supposed to provide Petrie with more trade flexibility by breaking down Webber's contract into three smaller pieces (Thomas, Williamson, Skinner). Yet all three remain on the roster, with only Thomas really involved in Adelman's revamped playing rotation.

Petrie maintains that the contracts will provide the Kings with salary-cap maneuverability over the coming few offseasons, and his two major deals since then, Wells for Bobby Jackson and Artest for Peja Stojakovic, were made straight up. Since the Kings clearly are not a finished product, Williamson and Skinner may yet prove valuable as parts of larger deals.

Until Artest arrived, though, the most obvious byproduct of the Webber trade was Sacramento's utter lack of spark. The Kings weren't any good and they weren't any fun, and Petrie was forced to admit that his own plan for Mike Bibby, Brad Miller and Stojakovic to form the core of a future winner had failed.

Webber's contract was just a killer. He played his way into it - not his fault at all - but, post-injury, it was an anvil tied around the neck of the organization. Petrie couldn't breathe every time he looked at the payroll. He had his money tied up in a player who was going to need the ball more and more often just to maintain his offensive averages. It was a downhill roll.

So Petrie took the header himself. He dealt Webber at a time when the world outside his office still considered Sacramento a legitimate contender. It wasn't, but that didn't stop the wailing.

A year out, Petrie isn't crowing about anything. He watched his newly collected team stumble out of the start of the season and appear completely finished by December. It wasn't until Artest arrived that anyone could see the gradual growth of Martin, or the promise of García - because now that progress was being marked in wins and close losses rather than lifeless, robotic defeats.

"I don't like being under water with our record," Petrie said. "But I can look at the team now and see how it could all work at a higher level."

Petrie says that conditionally, of course. His team needs to reclaim some of the outside shooting it lost in the Stojakovic deal. There has to be help for Bibby at the point. Not finished yet, in other words.

Not finished, but suddenly capable of looking forward again. There are fans who would tell you that they haven't felt that way since Chris Webber was traded, but Webber wasn't the beginning of the transition. He was just the loudest part.
 
Well, a year later I still can't find a way to like the Webber trade, although I have to say I like our team a lot better now than I did before the Artest trade. It's nice to see the players caring again.

I believe Webb meant a lot more to the Kings than even GP realized, and that if he could have foreseen the disaster that was this season up until the Peja trade, he may have acted differently. Not keeping Webb forever, necessarily, but maybe not that trade, at that time.

Overall, though, Webb was a victim of his large contract and his injury. With the team chemistry what it was at that point, Peja & Webb weren't going to stay on the same team for long. If Webb's contract had been smaller, or if he was healthier it could have been a different trade. But, that's all water under the bridge.

The Kings of old are my all time favorite team in any sport. I will probably always get tears in my eyes when I watch a video of those days, because that team was something special.

But, since the Artest trade, I finally feel like it's more fun to look forward instead of looking back. But, finally, the Kings are giving me something to smile about. Not just wins, which are important, but some effort, some desire, those intangible things that make a team fun to watch.
 
Maybe, but are people still saying that we're a better team without Webber, like they were last year? The Kings might finally appear to be moving in a forward direction, rather than running around like the poverbial chicken with its head cut off (which was how it looked for most of last year, and the first half of this year as well), but I'm still not prepared to say that we're a better team than we would have been at this point with Webber.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Maybe, but are people still saying that we're a better team without Webber, like they were last year? The Kings might finally appear to be moving in a forward direction, rather than running around like the poverbial chicken with its head cut off (which was how it looked for most of last year, and the first half of this year as well), but I'm still not prepared to say that we're a better team than we would have been at this point with Webber.

Clearly the first half of the season probably wouldn't have gone as badly if Webber were around, although I think an argument can be made that the defense and rebounding that we're now consistently getting out of the PF spot and the leadership from Artest outweighs Webber's theoretical contributions on offense. But I don't think the trade was made for the Kings to be better this season. It was done with an eye for the future, the distant future. You don't give up the best player in a deal and hope that it's going to make you immediately better. I don't think anyone can dispute that things are moving in the right direction again.
 
nbrans said:
Clearly the first half of the season probably wouldn't have gone as badly if Webber were around, although I think an argument can be made that the defense and rebounding that we're now consistently getting out of the PF spot and the leadership from Artest outweighs Webber's theoretical contributions on offense...
Eh, the defense at the PF hasn't been all that great, and neither is the rebounding; even as a starter, Thomas is only averaging 10.5 a game, on a team that doesn't have a better rebounder. You don't think that Webber could do that, when he's already averaging 10 on a team that has a better rebounder?

As far as the defense, Thomas and Abdur-Rahim are both quicker, and are both better at staying with a perimeter-oriented PF, but both get pretty much scored on at will by a post-oriented PF; Webber might not be able to keep up with Dirk Nowitzki, but I'll take him ten times out of ten against Tim Duncan.
 
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Clearly with Webb last year and even this year the Kings would have been and would be a better team. Next year, the year after that? I'm not so sure at all. The Kings weren't going to win a title last year nor would they have won one this year with Webb. Getting rid of him last year was made with an eye towards the future and for me I like what I see.
 
I still think we could have gotten more value out of Webber. Honestly, if we weren't really going to play 2/3rds of the trade (It's basically Kenny for Webber with the occasional Skinner and Corliss appearance) very often, I would have preferred trading him to a team to get expired contracts so that we could go after a big FA.

With a max off the books, we could throw money at some big time FA (Big Wallace) that would more suit our needs. I know Big Ben won't move anyway, but there is much more value to our money on the FA market than with Skinner and Corliss hogging relatively huge money for sitting on the bench.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Eh, the defense at the PF hasn't been all that great, and neither is the rebounding; even as a starter, Thomas is only averaging 10.5 a game, on a team that doesn't have a better rebounder. You don't think that Webber could do that, when he's already averaging 10 on a team that has a better rebounder?

As far as the defense, Thomas and Abdur-Rahim are both quicker, and are both better at staying with a perimeter-oriented PF, but both get pretty much scored on at will by a post-oriented PF; Webber might not be able to keep up with Dirk Nowitzki, but I'll take him ten times out of ten against Tim Duncan.

I don't want to get into a protracted Webber vs. KT and SAR debate, but here are some stats:

Kings' overall PF PER: 16.7
Kings' opponents' PF PER: 16.6
Kings' PF rebounding: 11.1

Sixers' overall PF PER: 15.5
Sixers' opponents' PF PER: 17.2
Sixers' PF rebounding: 11.5

So, .4 more rebounds a game for the Sixers, less overall production and worse defense.
 
nbrans said:
I don't want to get into a protracted Webber vs. KT and SAR debate, but here are some stats:

Kings' overall PF PER: 16.7
Kings' opponents' PF PER: 16.6
Kings' PF rebounding: 11.1

Sixers' overall PF PER: 15.5
Sixers' opponents' PF PER: 17.2
Sixers' PF rebounding: 11.5

So, .4 more rebounds a game for the Sixers, less overall production and worse defense.

Too bad SAR wasn't part of the trade. This wasn't Webber for SAR, Kenny, Corliss and Skinner. We're now paying more for those 4 players than we would be for Webber. SAR, Kenny and Skinner are essentially 4s.

A big reason we don't look so bad at the 4 is SAR. Kenny's PER and opponents PER started the year off pretty poorly (I believe) and have been getting better.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Maybe, but are people still saying that we're a better team without Webber, like they were last year? The Kings might finally appear to be moving in a forward direction, rather than running around like the poverbial chicken with its head cut off (which was how it looked for most of last year, and the first half of this year as well), but I'm still not prepared to say that we're a better team than we would have been at this point with Webber.

I don't think we're a better team without Webb. I'm glad to be moving forward, but I think with Webber we'd be a better team. Personally I think they should have pulled the Artest/Peja move earlier, instead of the Webber trade, and we'd be a better team for it.
 
nbrans said:
I don't want to get into a protracted Webber vs. KT and SAR debate, but here are some stats:

Kings' overall PF PER: 16.7
Kings' opponents' PF PER: 16.6
Kings' PF rebounding: 11.1

Sixers' overall PF PER: 15.5
Sixers' opponents' PF PER: 17.2
Sixers' PF rebounding: 11.5

So, .4 more rebounds a game for the Sixers, less overall production and worse defense.

Do you really think that statistics like that can put a value on what Webb meant for this team? Even ignoring the fact that SAR was NOT part of the Webber trade, Webb made the Kings better. What he's doing in Philly in a system dominated by one selfish player has very little to do with how he performed for us, in a system that worked for him.
 
nbrans said:
I don't want to get into a protracted Webber vs. KT and SAR debate, but here are some stats:

Kings' overall PF PER: 16.7
Kings' opponents' PF PER: 16.6
Kings' PF rebounding: 11.1

Sixers' overall PF PER: 15.5
Sixers' opponents' PF PER: 17.2
Sixers' PF rebounding: 11.5

So, .4 more rebounds a game for the Sixers, less overall production and worse defense.
What do those "per" figures represent, and where are you getting them from? They're not points per game...

So you don't think that the Kings would be more productive at PF with Webber and Abdur-Rahim than they are with Thomas and Abdur-Rahim?
 
I think the point is we got the best deal we could at the time and there was no indication that Webber's injury would get any better. That team was DONE. Does anyone really think we passed up a Webber for KG deal or something? Come on, this is what Webber was worth on the market and we got what we could. It's done. Deal with it and look forward to what these guys might bring us in the next year or so.

Yes, expiring contracts would be nice, but the guys we have will be useful in that respect in the next year or so, maybe even this offseason.

We all knew it wasn't going to be pretty in the short term....
 
Warhawk said:
We all knew it wasn't going to be pretty in the short term....
Yeah, but what's the statute of limitations on a trade? One year? Two years? Five? How many years in the future do you get to say that any gains or losses are relative to a trade?

For example, on ClutchCity, there's this nutjub that goes by the handle "tinman," who is basically the anti-playmaker0017. One of his favorite arguments is that every team that Abdur-Rahim has ever played for has gotten better without him (which isn't true, but that's another discussion entirely), citing the performance in Memphis as his his principle "evidence." I have wasted much time and bandwidth arguing with that individual, on Abdur-Rahim's behalf (which makes arguing with playmaker0017 even more irritating to me, as it has caused me to discover that I am not an Abdur-Rahim hater, so much as an Abdur-Rahim fan hater). Tinman believes that, despite the fact that Memphis continued to be lousy after trading Abdur-Rahim, that they "eventually" got better is proof that getting rid of Abdur-Rahim was the reason why...

... Which brings me back to the question that I asked at the beginning of this post: how many years after the Webber trade will we have to wait before people are no longer able to make any valid claim that any gains and losses are relative to said trade?
 
PER = Player Efficiency Rating. See John Hollinger, Basketball-Reference, Knickerblogger etc.

As to whom is a better rebounder: they're probably about even at this moment, with Webber playing on one limb and all that.

Rebound Rate suggests Kenny is a better rebounder, but Slim makes a good point about Kenny not having as much rebounding competition (or help, whichever way you look at it) from his teammates, whereas Webber has to play alongside Dalembert.

Rebound Rate:
Kenny Thomas 15.4 (23rd)
Chris Webber 14.7 (30th)

Brad Miller 12.3
Samuel Dalembert 18.4

Bonzi was the best rebounder on the team before he got injured; after he went down, and Reef as well, Kenny took that role.

Bonzi has always been a great rebounder for a guard (probably only bettered by Paul Pierce), but he's produced outstanding rebounding numbers this season; and that has alot to do with the lack of rebounding from the other players. It's almost as if he's rebounding those balls that were supposed to be rebounded by Brad.

When (or if?) Bonzi returns, both his and Kenny's rebound-rates will probably drop.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Yeah, but what's the statute of limitations on a trade? One year? Two years? Five? How many years in the future do you get to say that any gains or losses are relative to a trade?

I'm not sure you can put a definite year # on it.

If picks are included, you have to see how those picks panned out.

For this deal, you have to see what these pieces bring us as they are traded away ar what they ultimately bring if kept.

An exaggerated example, but what if, say, Minny traded us KG for Bonzi and KT or something - whatever works financially - and we win a title two years later. I would say that we got KG as a result of the Bobby and Webber deals, even if it takes 3-4 years to pan out.

Obviously, the Christie trade ended up netting us nothing in the long term, but he would have retired anyways, so that's a wash you can be certain about now. The ramifications of the Webber deal may be years in coming to fruition. Patience, Grasshopper.

Having lived through the first incarnation of the House that Petrie built, I am willing to go through a tough year or two to see what this next one looks like. He has stated that the team he is putting together is starting to take shape, or something similar. These things take time and vision.
 
Another good article from Kreidler. I, an ultimate Webb homer, have to agree with the points that were made.

I've watched the Sixers this year. CWebb still has talent but he's slower, he still can't defend inside, and he would have been torn apart and thrown to the wolves here. It hurt like hell last year to see him leave but I have to think now, in hindsight, that Petrie did the kind thing - he made the cut with a clean knife.

Time passes and life goes on.

And our Kings may be on the upswing again for another great ride at some point in the future.

GO KINGS!!!
 
nbrans said:
Clearly the first half of the season probably wouldn't have gone as badly if Webber were around, although I think an argument can be made that the defense and rebounding that we're now consistently getting out of the PF spot and the leadership from Artest outweighs Webber's theoretical contributions on offense. But I don't think the trade was made for the Kings to be better this season. It was done with an eye for the future, the distant future. You don't give up the best player in a deal and hope that it's going to make you immediately better. I don't think anyone can dispute that things are moving in the right direction again.

This seems to be the general thinking, and it is this reasoning I have huge problems with.

Lets break it down:

last year and this year, the King's would've been better with Webber than KT Corlis and Skinner (not EVERYONE agrees to this fact, but by far most do)

Then you have $20 mil next year and $22 the year after that. Lts just assume a worst case scenario, and everyone is completely correct and Webber just completely breaks down and becomes a "DNP-coach's decision" night in and night out (he becomes Jamaal Sampson making $20 million). That would suck. He would drag down the team next year, however the NEXT year he becomes a huge expiring contract, and a valuable asset again. Hell, Penny Hardaway (and his gnasty contract) was probably THE most valuable asset on that god-forsaken Knicks team this season.

Basically, in a worst case scenario, Webber's contract would've hammered the Kings 1 season (next), and that assumes the 3 jalopies he was traded for (or whatever they are traded for) outperform him. nex
 
mcsluggo said:
This seems to be the general thinking, and it is this reasoning I have huge problems with.

Lets break it down:

last year and this year, the King's would've been better with Webber than KT Corlis and Skinner (not EVERYONE agrees to this fact, but by far most do)

Then you have $20 mil next year and $22 the year after that. Lts just assume a worst case scenario, and everyone is completely correct and Webber just completely breaks down and becomes a "DNP-coach's decision" night in and night out (he becomes Jamaal Sampson making $20 million). That would suck. He would drag down the team next year, however the NEXT year he becomes a huge expiring contract, and a valuable asset again. Hell, Penny Hardaway (and his gnasty contract) was probably THE most valuable asset on that god-forsaken Knicks team this season.

Basically, in a worst case scenario, Webber's contract would've hammered the Kings 1 season (next), and that assumes the 3 jalopies he was traded for (or whatever they are traded for) outperform him. nex

Kenny and Skinner are atleast average players in the NBA if they are playing minutes. If they aren't they aren't very good. Skinner and Kenny played pretty damn well (they were outperforming Webber, numbers wise when the trade went through initially). The thing is neither plays that well in spurts. If Brad were to get hurt again, I think Skinner would do more than an adequete job in plugging the lane and getting boards like he did last year.

If these players are utilized correctly, the trade isn't a total wash. The thing is they aren't the right players for the job. Kenny I think fits the best. Skinner will work well if or when Brad gets hurt (hopefully never). Corliss is the only guy who doesn't really work that well.
 
Warhawk said:
http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/basketball/kings/story/14221433p-15047155c.html

One year later, we can safely dispense with the notion that the Chris Webber trade signaled the beginning of the end for the Kings.

Vlade Divac's leaving took care of that months before.

Oh, nobody says it that way; it's not elegant enough. What they say is that Divac's departure to the Lakers before the 2004-05 season marked the beginning of the "transition," as in, "The Kings went into a transition from a contender to a dog."

Well, they don't even really say that, exactly, but you get the gist. Divac left, and that was the official point of decline, which Doug Christie's subsequent trade to Orlando accentuated.

And then, one year ago today, Geoff Petrie sent Webber to Philadelphia, brought Kenny Thomas, Corliss Williamson and Brian Skinner to Sacramento, sat back, and listened to one national commentator after another explain that the Kings had simply given up.

Not at all. It only felt that way for a while.

A year later, the Kings are watchable again, but they crawled over broken glass to get there. The roster - Ron Artest, Bonzi Wells, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Francisco García, Kevin Martin in a major role - is virtually unrecognizable from the one Webber played with in Sacramento, and after seeing Sacramento go 7-3 over the last 10 games it's tempting to conclude that that's not entirely a bad thing.

But it's a secondary point. The primary point is this: The Kings of old were dead not long after Webber's desperation three-pointer missed at Minnesota, eliminating Rick Adelman's team from the second round of the 2004 playoffs and ushering in the trauma that followed. It was one long funeral after that, Divac to Christie to Webber and beyond.

"There was no growth left with where we were," Petrie said Wednesday, and consider the truth there. Divac and Christie are out of the game. Webber is piling up numbers and playing no defense in Philadelphia in service of a sub-.500 team, and whatever else you say about the 76ers-Kings deal, the one thing beyond dispute is that Philly sure didn't trade for Webber to achieve mediocrity.

But that's where the Sixers are, mediocre and now saddled with precisely the contract Petrie wanted out of. Webber will cost the 76ers more than $19 million this season, $20 million next season and $22 million the season after that. The Webber of old might have mitigated some of that expense with his athletic play and game-changing ability, but that's not the guy Philadelphia acquired.

But it was no steal on the other end. You know that. For many Kings fans, the lights went out when Webber left. He was the charismatic face of the franchise, and he had been a star. It's hard to put that down, no matter what the reality looks like on the floor.

For that matter, the deal was supposed to provide Petrie with more trade flexibility by breaking down Webber's contract into three smaller pieces (Thomas, Williamson, Skinner). Yet all three remain on the roster, with only Thomas really involved in Adelman's revamped playing rotation.

Petrie maintains that the contracts will provide the Kings with salary-cap maneuverability over the coming few offseasons, and his two major deals since then, Wells for Bobby Jackson and Artest for Peja Stojakovic, were made straight up. Since the Kings clearly are not a finished product, Williamson and Skinner may yet prove valuable as parts of larger deals.

Until Artest arrived, though, the most obvious byproduct of the Webber trade was Sacramento's utter lack of spark. The Kings weren't any good and they weren't any fun, and Petrie was forced to admit that his own plan for Mike Bibby, Brad Miller and Stojakovic to form the core of a future winner had failed.

Webber's contract was just a killer. He played his way into it - not his fault at all - but, post-injury, it was an anvil tied around the neck of the organization. Petrie couldn't breathe every time he looked at the payroll. He had his money tied up in a player who was going to need the ball more and more often just to maintain his offensive averages. It was a downhill roll.

So Petrie took the header himself. He dealt Webber at a time when the world outside his office still considered Sacramento a legitimate contender. It wasn't, but that didn't stop the wailing.

A year out, Petrie isn't crowing about anything. He watched his newly collected team stumble out of the start of the season and appear completely finished by December. It wasn't until Artest arrived that anyone could see the gradual growth of Martin, or the promise of García - because now that progress was being marked in wins and close losses rather than lifeless, robotic defeats.

"I don't like being under water with our record," Petrie said. "But I can look at the team now and see how it could all work at a higher level."

Petrie says that conditionally, of course. His team needs to reclaim some of the outside shooting it lost in the Stojakovic deal. There has to be help for Bibby at the point. Not finished yet, in other words.

Not finished, but suddenly capable of looking forward again. There are fans who would tell you that they haven't felt that way since Chris Webber was traded, but Webber wasn't the beginning of the transition. He was just the loudest part.


Another nice piece by Kreidler.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
For example, on ClutchCity, there's this nutjub that goes by the handle "tinman," who is basically the anti-playmaker0017. One of his favorite arguments is that every team that Abdur-Rahim has ever played for has gotten better without him (which isn't true, but that's another discussion entirely), citing the performance in Memphis as his his principle "evidence." I have wasted much time and bandwidth arguing with that individual, on Abdur-Rahim's behalf (which makes arguing with playmaker0017 even more irritating to me, as it has caused me to discover that I am not an Abdur-Rahim hater, so much as an Abdur-Rahim fan hater). Tinman believes that, despite the fact that Memphis continued to be lousy after trading Abdur-Rahim, that they "eventually" got better is proof that getting rid of Abdur-Rahim was the reason why...


Damn - I inspire hate?

I mean - wow.

The biggest anti-Reef person in the world wouldn't inspire me to hate them.

Even after my sweet and kind apology ... sheesh. No love in these them parts.
 
VF21 said:
he made the cut with a clean knife.

No he didn't, and that's the real travesty here. he made about the ugliest most jagged lumpy scar tissue cut he could possibly make and saddled us with Webb's salary for just as long with none of Webb's talent.

Comparatively, dumping him for an ending contract would have looked like a work of genius.

But hey, at least we got Vitaly Potapenko out of the deal. :rolleyes:
 
Bricklayer said:
No he didn't, and that's the real travesty here. he made about the ugliest most jagged lumpy scar tissue cut he could possibly make and saddled us with Webb's salary for just as long with none of Webb's talent.

Comparatively, dumping him for an ending contract would have looked like a work of genius.

But hey, at least we got Vitaly Potapenko out of the deal. :rolleyes:

I agree. A "clean knife" wouldn't have ended with Webb heartbroken, leaving a city he loved, in exchange for three players that are marginal. For a player that brought to a team what Webb brought, that was about as ugly as it gets.

And in return? Well, Webb may be slower than he used to be, but to me (in the limited Philly games I can see) he looks healthier than he was on the Kings last year, and he seemed to do pretty well here.

As for Potapenko? Well, at least Petrie won't take any more heat about the "three flexible trading pieces" still on the roster... I'm sure that makes him feel better!;)
 
The "flexible pieces" are still flexible pieces, they didn't become more or less flexible with this deal. The real action is going to be at next year's deadline when the expiring contracts become very valuable as teams will want to clear space for the 2007 offseason.
 
love_them_kings said:
Well, Webb may be slower than he used to be, but to me (in the limited Philly games I can see) he looks healthier than he was on the Kings last year, and he seemed to do pretty well here.

As for Potapenko? Well, at least Petrie won't take any more heat about the "three flexible trading pieces" still on the roster... I'm sure that makes him feel better!;)

But I think the concern was that Webb came back when he said he was ready, was skipping practices and games, and wasn't improving health-wise. His first game back was one of his best, and he never seemed to get better. Hindsight is always 20-20, at the time there was no way to know how he was going to be.

Again, as I have said before, we have to see if Webb can play out his last couple years, at what level, and see what the "pieces" do or bring us before you can give a final grade to the move. And that's only if you agree with grading moves in hindsight instead of with what the situation was at the time of the move and what could reasonably have been forseen at that time.
 
Warhawk said:
But I think the concern was that Webb came back when he said he was ready, was skipping practices and games, and wasn't improving health-wise. His first game back was one of his best, and he never seemed to get better. Hindsight is always 20-20, at the time there was no way to know how he was going to be.

Again, as I have said before, we have to see if Webb can play out his last couple years, at what level, and see what the "pieces" do or bring us before you can give a final grade to the move. And that's only if you agree with grading moves in hindsight instead of with what the situation was at the time of the move and what could reasonably have been forseen at that time.

Webb probably did come back too early, but I think that's a mistake by a lot of professionals that are true competitors, and want to be out there fighting. I think the skipping games and practices was part of him trying to get healthy, and recognizing he had limitations.

His first game back may have been his best game that season, but last year he was playing very well right before the trade. He was player of the month right before he left.

And yes, if you want to grade moves in hindsight you should wait and see how things play out. But at the time I thought the move was horrible. I thought it was foreseeable that Webb would continue to work hard to get healthier, that Peja would never be any type of leader to this team, and that the Kings needed Webb. The way the Kings collapsed after he left did nothing to shake me of those opinions.

Like I've said before, I understand he had a huge contract, and that his health was uncertain. I just think the risk/reward of keeping Webb was greater than what we got in return.
 
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