Marcus Thornton

[ParniValjak]

I said people who are hardcore NBA fans knew about him. Not everybody is a hardcore NBA fan. And why didn't another team get him? Because they have a bad GM that thinks that Landry will add some depth, and if resigned, could soften the blow once D West leaves, because West and the team are too far apart in their extension discussions, and he's likely gone from the hornets in free agency. It's poor management decisions that have helped the kings in this circumstance.



Not every team needed a perimeter scorer. My point it this: just because you or other kings fans may not have realized how Thornton produced at the end of last season, or the circumstances of his time this season in NOLA, doesn't mean that people in NBA circles were unaware of him and that GP pulled a rabbit out of the hat on this one.



Again, if anybody paid attention to him at the end of last season, they knew he had potential. You can check his numbers from Feb onward once Scott was replaced and the rookies got some PT:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thornma01/splits/2010/

Second, just because teams weren't salivating over a perimeter scorer doesn't mean he wasn't on the radar. Not everybody is looking for that specific piece, and the hornets management made a poor decision to mortgage their future on trying to win now.

Your reasoning makes no sense what so ever because there wouldn't be a team in the NBA that would not want a good young asset for a cheap trade prize. Not one. Even the teams that are more than set at SG would want to get a cheap young, SG prospect because its building an asset base. It might not fit a need but it gives them as asset they can use in multiple ways.

Of course teams were aware of his talent and his scoring run last year, however, logic suggest that none of them offered a better deal than Landry because if they did, NO would have jumped on it.

So maybe there is some luck there that other teams might not have rated Thornton as highly as others, and those that did rate him weren't prepared to offer as much as Landry because there was plenty of rumours about teams being interested in Thornton but eventually the Kings were the ones that made the deal. That suggest that other teams either didn't rate him as highly or were not prepared to offer as much for him as the Kings.

 

[hrdboild]

...or it could be that the day after a career scoring night is not the best time to evaluate a player's long-term potential objectively. (also see: related "what can we get for Tyreke?" comments)

 

[Bricklayer]

...or it could be that the day after a career scoring night is not the best time to evaluate a player's long-term potential objectively. (also see: related "what can we get for Tyreke?" comments)

I think that would apply more if he hadn't been a 20pt scorer ever since arriving, and if he hadn't done the same thing for the entire second half of last year. Its getting hard to ignore that he may in fact just flat out be a 20ppg scorere, with the main questions now jsut if he can tame it enough to work on a winning team or not.

Obviously I'm hoping nobody is seriosly tring to judge his future by scoring 42 against the Warriors. But averaging 20 against the entire league basically whenever he's gotten the minutes in hs young career is something else. Now can he make it 17 as a 3rd option, not take bad shots, and yet keep his aggressiveness? Those are always the rubs.

 

[Entity]

the big questinon is can westphal hold him on the bench. Westphall is the type that would start him and Tyreke together with beno off the bench. Westphal has no patience with lineups.

 

[rainmaker]

the big questinon is can westphal hold him on the bench. Westphall is the type that would start him and Tyreke together with beno off the bench. Westphal has no patience with lineups.

I'm that type too.

 

[Showtime]

Your reasoning makes no sense what so ever because there wouldn't be a team in the NBA that would not want a good young asset for a cheap trade prize. Not one. Even the teams that are more than set at SG would want to get a cheap young, SG prospect because its building an asset base. It might not fit a need but it gives them as asset they can use in multiple ways.

I doubt most teams even knew he was available. He wasn't being shopped, or at the very least it was quietly done. I never attempted to make that argument, nor did I ever argue that every team was interested. I stated a simple fact: just because Kings fans had no clue about this guy's game doesn't mean that GP and the rest of the league were equally clueless.

Of course teams were aware of his talent and his scoring run last year, however, logic suggest that none of them offered a better deal than Landry because if they did, NO would have jumped on it.

I clearly stated, several times, that I think this is a bad deal for the hornets. I also think their GM is making some bad decisions. So why would a bad GM make the best move? If he thinks this is a good deal for his team, then that tells you all you need to know.

So maybe there is some luck there that other teams might not have rated Thornton as highly as others, and those that did rate him weren't prepared to offer as much as Landry because there was plenty of rumours about teams being interested in Thornton but eventually the Kings were the ones that made the deal. That suggest that other teams either didn't rate him as highly or were not prepared to offer as much for him as the Kings.

When talking about NBA prospects, what is the most common? The most common player are perimeter scorers. That's why he's not a highly sought-after commodity, even if he becomes a solid bench scorer ala Jason Terry or Jamal Crawford. Those types of players are the most commonly available, so when they see a second year guy who may or may not be the guy they saw in half a season, why would they go after him, especially if they don't need another 2 guard (which, btw hurts his value on the market because he can only play off guard)?

GP made a good deal with a team that was in a tight spot but made a poor decision. Other teams may or may not have wanted Thornton, but people knew what type of game he had. There's no way I could know that, and hornets fans could know that, and professional NBA front offices didn't know that.

 

[Glenn]

NO wanted a PF, we had a spare. We needed a shooter and they had a spare. The clever part is that the Maloofs need money to help them move so the NBA controlled team threw in some money to help make it possible. Who knows, maybe the key to the trade is the money.




I have to add that I am kidding to a certain extent but in fact the NBA is giving the Kings money and we don't know how much. It won't make any difference at the end of the day.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm just looking forward to seeing how Thornton and Tyreke mesh together on the floor. They most likely will start together at least once or more knowing Westphal's random line ups. Hopefully Tyreke comes back soon in these couple of weeks so we can see a preview of what can be and what cannot. Moving Beno to the bench would be the ideal thing to do as well so he doesn't have to keep getting killed by starting PG's.

 

[ESP47]

Again on this a huge x-factor is the passing of Cousins, and to a lesser (and surprising) degree, Dalembert. We could once again, as we have for most of the last dozen years, have the best passing big man in the game on the roster. And he's coming into his own. Reke won't necessarily be out there on his own, because a lot fo the offense may eventually be able to be run through Cousins as well.

When Shaq and Kobe were the Lakers stars, how much other passing did they have? No other starter averaged more than 4 assists. They got a little here, a little there. Guys who who were smart enough not to force shots, but few creaters. And both Cousins and Reke are more natural passers comparatively than either Shaq or Kobe. Let's say you added Jeff Green as the SF -- Jeff Green is a good passer, good ball mover. Dalembert, formerly known as a black hole, has shown you can actually run occasional high post passing plays with him. You could get it done. One other note: consider a starting linuep of Reke/Thornton/?/Daly/Cousins. How many of those guys actually NEED soem great creative player out there to get their offense for them. I don't know that there are the shots to go around, but Reke, Cousins and Thronton all create their own offense with little trouble. And Daly is a defensive roleplayer, who actually is develping some real chemsitry with Cousins. Basically with that lineup you wouldn't need extra passing because all the main guuns can take care of themselves.

I would also once agian like to note ITS NOT THE OFFENSE. At least not primarily. We score as many or more points than several of the playoff teams out there already, and that's with young talent who is still not nearly as efficient as it will be. We have to figure out how to make the other side of the ball better. You can be 47-18 scoring like we do (see Boston, Chicago). But you need to sop the other team.

I often find myself irritated at Cousins terrible passing decisions, then he throws an assist that reminds me of Webber and I have to remember that he's still a rookie. He'll never be the passer that Webber was but he can definitely rack up 3-4 a game in his prime if we run the offense around him.

I find it funny that we searched for years for a 10/reb a game C or PF and couldn't find one. Now this year we have two on the team. I gotta eat my words when it comes to Cousins rebounding. I made a statement a few months ago saying he's too stubby and not athletic enough to grab more than 8 boards a game. He has definitely proved me wrong. He's grabbing 10 a game even with another great rebounding center in there taking boards away from him. He was just ragdolling Golden State on his box outs the other night. What he lacks in jumping ability, he definitely makes up in determination on the boards.

 

[mac]

When Shaq and Kobe were the Lakers stars, how much other passing did they have? No other starter averaged more than 4 assists. They got a little here, a little there. Guys who who were smart enough not to force shots, but few creaters. And both Cousins and Reke are more natural passers comparatively than either Shaq or Kobe

Cousins more so than Shaq definitely, but I'm not as sold on Reke being a more natural passer than Kobe, even when you compare them at the same stages of their careers. It depends what you meant by "natural passer" of course - I interpreted it as "better" passer more so than "more willing" passer. If you're talking about who the more willing passer is, then sure I'd give the title to 2nd year Reke over 2nd year Kobe. But in terms of vision and the ability to pass the ball, I'd still take Kobe.

 

[Arkitect]

I often find myself irritated at Cousins terrible passing decisions, then he throws an assist that reminds me of Webber and I have to remember that he's still a rookie. He'll never be the passer that Webber was but he can definitely rack up 3-4 a game in his prime if we run the offense around him.

I find it funny that we searched for years for a 10/reb a game C or PF and couldn't find one. Now this year we have two on the team. I gotta eat my words when it comes to Cousins rebounding. I made a statement a few months ago saying he's too stubby and not athletic enough to grab more than 8 boards a game. He has definitely proved me wrong. He's grabbing 10 a game even with another great rebounding center in there taking boards away from him. He was just ragdolling Golden State on his box outs the other night. What he lacks in jumping ability, he definitely makes up in determination on the boards.

In his prime? He is doing it right now. He is averaging 3.4 over the last 10 games. I think many people don't realize what we have in Cousins already. And he is only 20.

 

[Glenn]

In his prime? He is doing it right now. He is averaging 3.4 over the last 10 games. I think many people don't realize what we have in Cousins already. And he is only 20.

I look forward to seeing Cousins "in his prime." He might be an unstoppable beast AND a passer on that occcasion he is double and triple teamed. The effect of a Cousins and Reke on a team spreads as it makes everybody's life easier. How do you defend a team with two players, one who already has proven he is unstoppable one on one in Reke? Do you double team Reke, do you double Cousins? You sure want to. Then what do you do with Thornton? He will never be doubled. How about that top 5 pick? How about the free agent? Heck, Pooh will be wide open. In a sense, the team becomes undefendable (oh, heavens, don't pick on me for saying that!)

If the team acts like a team, some one will score. It may become a layup drill for Cisco. Somebody who works well off the ball may go for 30.

 

[est.1999]

Webb wasn't that great of a passer early in his career.

 

[Bricklayer]

Webb wasn't that great of a passer early in his career.

Oh, he was pretty damn good. By his second year he was averaging 4.7ast a game, and 5.0 in his third. At that time was more just a question of finding coaches who knew what to do with that. Barkley was the prototype passing PF and had paved the way, but when Webber first came into the league the Princeton had not yet transitioned to the pros.

In any case, fans are amazingly shortsighted creatures. What you are seeing with Cousins is another Vlade/Weber type passer. What you are seeing with Cousins is one of the most offensively talented bigs I have ever seen. Held back by lack of verticality at some point? Perhaps. But the bulk/strength/rebounding instincts, great hands, shooting touch, passing touch, ballhandling for a big man, all at age 20 when he should be a sophomore in college....the kid is a savant, and he's just getting started.

 

[est.1999]

Yeah, I wasn't dissing Webb. It was more me just putting what he did in his young career compared to his latter years in retrospect I guess

 

[Superman]

Held back by lack of verticality at some point? Perhaps.

Verticality is overrated when you can literally put the defender underneath the rim.

This dude only needs to slow down and make better decisions with the basketball, and stop letting his frustration show so much on the floor. The game is already easy for him, and that's with him being in less than great shape and on a team that sometimes forgets how to get him the ball.

 

[Glenn]

Oh, he was pretty damn good. By his second year he was averaging 4.7ast a game, and 5.0 in his third. At that time was more just a question of finding coaches who knew what to do with that. Barkley was the prototype passing PF and had paved the way, but when Webber first came into the league the Princeton had not yet transitioned to the pros.

In any case, fans are amazingly shortsighted creatures. What you are seeing with Cousins is another Vlade/Weber type passer. What you are seeing with Cousins is one of the most offensively talented bigs I have ever seen. Held back by lack of verticality at some point? Perhaps. But the bulk/strength/rebounding instincts, great hands, shooting touch, passing touch, ballhandling for a big man, all at age 20 when he should be a sophomore in college....the kid is a savant, and he's just getting started.

But, my goodness, let us not use the phrase "Hall of Fame" yet. Of course no one can predict injury, sickness, etc. but if Cousins simply improves at an average rate, we may see something never seen before on a court and I have seen them all except George Mikan who was in the same town I lived in. (Does everyone know that at the beginning of Mikan's career the lane was 6 feet wide? No big man had ever taken advantage of that. They quickly made a rule change to 12 feet) Picture ANY modern big man with a 6 ft lane.

When do we say a man is one of the best? When was Shaq named one of the top 50 of all time? Some people said it was too soon. Shaq's advantage over Cousins is that Shaq was bigger than life and very dramatic. But who's better? Tune in 10 years from now.

I make outrageously early predictions but I am usually correct. I'll let Brick and Bajaden fill in the words to describe what I see.




In the last game Cuz made a behind the back pass in traffic. BTW, I'd love to see the hand sizes of Cuz and CWebb. It's important. JWill has outrageously large hands.

 

[Glenn]

Verticality is overrated when you can literally put the defender underneath the rim.

This dude only needs to slow down and make better decisions with the basketball, and stop letting his frustration show so much on the floor. The game is already easy for him, and that's with him being in less than great shape and on a team that sometimes forgets how to get him the ball.

He is learning. You have to push the edge of the envelope and fail to learn. Specifically, throw outrageous passes and then learn which ones will work. That's how people learn. In other words, at this point I am not concerned about TO's Maybe a little concerned about fouls. Not much. It's also part of the learning process - what can a player do without hearing a whistle.