Marcos Bretón: No great player, no title, no coincidence

[striker]

Are you saying Duncan's achievements to date haven't matched:

Wilkens
Barkley
Alex English
David Thompson
Gervin
Calvin Murphy
Dan Issel
Lanier

What hurt's Webber is that he plays in an era of outstanding PF where it's hard to rise above the pack of greats to gain HOF status. That and he has had a few historic unclutch moments which could well stick in the minds of the voters.

Pistons are the exception to the rule and the way to go if you can in todays game in my mind. They have a lot of great or near great talent and they have done it at an acceptable price because guys are signing for less than they can get elsewhere just to be on a great team.

It looks like the Suns are on the verge of accomplishing the same thing. They are scary beacuse they have great talent and tradeable pieces and picks to fill in the gaps.

In todays game I'll take a team filled with great and near great players over a team with one or two dominant players sucking up the money, surrounded by a bunch of average Joes. Kings will have to get to that level of greats and near greats and that's tough.

 

[yanon]

Once, Lebron gets his sidekick. A team with superstars will dominate this league again much like the MJ era.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Are you saying Duncan's achievements to date haven't matched:
*list snipped*
What hurt's Webber is that he plays in an era of outstanding PF where it's hard to rise above the pack of greats to gain HOF status.

Actually I think that was the point I was trying to make. There is a lot of talent at that spot right now and even some of the more average guys are capable of putting up some huge numbers and looking better than they really are on a frequent basis. I'm not saying that's the case with Duncan - but the reason that Duncan has rised to the top is because of his reputation of being a winner and three championships has a lot to do with that. If you took them away, would he be a lock if he never played another game? I'm not 100% sure. Realistically he still has half his career left and longevity is usually a factor in making these determinations.

 

[striker]

Actually I think that was the point I was trying to make. There is a lot of talent at that spot right now and even some of the more average guys are capable of putting up some huge numbers and looking better than they really are on a frequent basis. I'm not saying that's the case with Duncan - but the reason that Duncan has rised to the top is because of his reputation of being a winner and three championships has a lot to do with that. If you took them away, would he be a lock if he never played another game? I'm not 100% sure. Realistically he still has half his career left and longevity is usually a factor in making these determinations.

So I guess yo're saying Kevin Garnett wll never make the HOF either, right? Or if Garnett gets a debilitating injury next season he won't make the HOF?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

So I guess yo're saying Kevin Garnett wll never make the HOF either, right? Or if Garnett gets a debilitating injury next season he won't make the HOF?

I did not say that you HAD to win, I said Duncan's reputation comes largely from winning and that taking that away might bring him down a notch. Garnett's reputation comes from singlehandedly making otherwise horrible teams competitive and getting them to the playoffs year after year. But Garnett's reputation suffers from never having won and that's obvious.

 

[Bricklayer]

It looks like the Suns are on the verge of accomplishing the same thing. They are scary beacuse they have great talent and tradeable pieces and picks to fill in the gaps.

But the Suns are really nothing like the Pistons, in either talent or style (obviously).

Amare is...or was...first rate Great. If he'd kept on rolling he was going to be on a HOF pace. Nash might slip in now with back to back MVPs. Marion is a 20-10 guy now, perennial All-Star type. And then the rest are roleplayers. Much closer to the classic formation now. Miami is the classic formation. San Antonio. Dallas. Cleveland. Nothing's changed -- the Pistons continue to stand alone as the freakish exception.

 

[striker]

But the Suns are really nothing like the Pistons, in either talent or style (obviously).

Amare is...or was...first rate Great. If he'd kept on rolling he was going to be on a HOF pace. Nash might slip in now with back to back MVPs. Marion is a 20-10 guy now, perennial All-Star type. And then the rest are roleplayers. Much closer to the classic formation now. Miami is the classic formation. San Antonio. Dallas. Cleveland. Nothing's changed -- the Pistons continue to stand alone as the freakish exception.

Which one of the Suns can you absolutely build a team around. Amare? Maybe if he returns to pre-injury level but even he, for his position, to date has not shown himself to be a rebounder or defender. Nash. Nash has two MVPs now but is he a guy you build a championship franchise around without other great pieces. Was he in Dallas or in Phoenix the first time. around? Marion? Is he a franchise building player. Nope. Yes they're all-stars. Diaw also has an outstanding chance of becoming an all-star but not a franchise building player.

But there are no Duncans. No Shaqs. No Hakeems. Amare is the only one with that potential, though doubtful. Likely a better version of Shawn Kemp art best. But even if Amare doesn't comeback to full pre-injury level the Suns have the potential to be a dynasty. They have young players on cheap contracts, they have two very high draft picks courtesy of a boneheaded Atlanta trade, they have players on favorable, tradeable contracts cost to production-wise to fill any missing pieces like an outstanding defensve big man. They are a different version of the Pistons. A team that has very high level talent at multiple positons.

 

[captain bill]

Which one of the Suns can you absolutely build a team around. Amare? Maybe if he returns to pre-injury level but even he, for his position, to date has not shown himself to be a rebounder or defender. Nash. Nash has two MVPs now but is he a guy you build a championship franchise around without other great pieces. Was he in Dallas or in Phoenix the first time. around? Marion? Is he a franchise building player. Nope. Yes they're all-stars. Diaw also has an outstanding chance of becoming an all-star but not a franchise building player.

But there are no Duncans. No Shaqs. No Hakeems. Amare is the only one with that potential, though doubtful. Likely a better version of Shawn Kemp art best. But even if Amare doesn't comeback to full pre-injury level the Suns have the potential to be a dynasty. They have young players on cheap contracts, they have two very high draft picks courtesy of a boneheaded Atlanta trade, they have players on favorable, tradeable contracts cost to production-wise to fill any missing pieces like an outstanding defensve big man. They are a different version of the Pistons. A team that has very high level talent at multiple positons.

No Duncans. No Shaqs. No Hakeems. No rings.

Okay, it's only been one year, and they could still win it all this year, but they will not. If they ever do it will be with Amare playing great. That's why the Pistons are the exception and the Suns are not- because the Pistons were and are a real championship caliber team. Just by numbers alone, teams without HOFers to build around have to do very well, because they're just aren't enough HOF guys to fill up the conference finals every year. If the Suns manage to win a championship, you can write them in as the exceptions. But until then they'll just be a very good trick pony team.

 

[4cwebb]

No Duncans. No Shaqs. No Hakeems. No rings.

Okay, it's only been one year, and they could still win it all this year, but they will not. If they ever do it will be with Amare playing great. That's why the Pistons are the exception and the Suns are not- because the Pistons were and are a real championship caliber team. Just by numbers alone, teams without HOFers to build around have to do very well, because they're just aren't enough HOF guys to fill up the conference finals every year. If the Suns manage to win a championship, you can write them in as the exceptions. But until then they'll just be a very good trick pony team.

The main danger for the Suns at this point is whether Amare can get back to relatively close to his pre-injury level prior to the time that Nash's game starts to decline. The logic behind Dallas letting him walk was that he was not durable enough to keep running around at his pace for the next 5 years. Whether the Mavericks were correct or not remains to be seen over the next three years or so, but it seems that within that windown the Suns will need to win a title. By that time either (1) Nash's skills may be in serious decline if he has suffered any injuries which will slow him down, or (2) Lebron will have an appropriate cast around him and will have matured into another dominant talent similar to MJ, and it won't matter how well the Suns can play. It will certainly be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

 

[bperiod]

This is the bottom line of that article...PERIOD.


"First, the Kings didn't win a title in their two-year window (2001-02 and 2002-03) because they missed 14 free throws in Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals at Arco Arena in 2002 against the Los Angeles Lakers. Vlade Divac - a terrific player lacking Hall of Fame skills - missed five free throws. Another near-great in Peja Stojakovic had a wide-open look that might have sealed the win but threw up an airball. Another good one - Doug Christie - melted down under the pressure. And a player who was elite for a moment in Chris Webber played just OK."

As much as it kills me to admit...that was it. Yes, the refs sucked, all that Laker conspiracy stuff (I've gone there plenty of times), etc, etc...but if the Kings didn't completley utterly choke...we have our championship...there is not way the Nets could have hung with that group...the article is one of the truest I've read. It seems everybody discounts what this cat says because of previous articles..but this one is right on point. His Detroit reference is sketchy, but who knows..if they continue to dominate for a few more years, players like Rip, BW, Chauncy, will be considered elite players. Elite, HOF players status come from balling in clutch situations over and over again. Which they do...honestly I've never watched a choke job as bad as that game 7. The 3 pt champion threw up an airball on a WIDE OPEN 3 to seal the game? Clank after clank at the charity stripe? I mean...let's just get real....if that season ends in a championship...Chris is the best PF in the league, Mike is a LEGEND, Peja is the next coming of Larry Bird, Doug is Michael Cooper, BJax is the Microwave, blah, blah, blah....
Very long ramble here...just had to get some of this off my chest...