Let's discuss new guys (from June 2016)

[Livinthedream]

From looking at his shot, stretch 4 seems like it's in the cards for him. Unfortunately unless he toughens up a bit, I see him as more of a Channing Frye type than anything else. You have to be able to rebound at the 4. Can't rely on Cousins for everything.

What's the difference between Frye and Ryan Anderson? Not much at all. Role players but valuable when used correctly.

Skal has post moves, from what I've seen. He just doesn't have the strength to finish them in the NBA yet. Much more certain an 18 y.o. will get bigger and stronger than it is to be sure someone learn how to operate in the post. The advantage he has from being thin is he didn't learn to play hoops by just running over and through people on the court (Dwight Howard). He had to learn to handle the ball and move and shoot. So he has a skill set a lot of big men don't have at his age.

 

[ESP47]

What's the difference between Frye and Ryan Anderson? Not much at all. Role players but valuable when used correctly.

Skal has post moves, from what I've seen. He just doesn't have the strength to finish them in the NBA yet. Much more certain an 18 y.o. will get bigger and stronger than it is to be sure someone learn how to operate in the post. The advantage he has from being thin is he didn't learn to play hoops by just running over and through people on the court (Dwight Howard). He had to learn to handle the ball and move and shoot. So he has a skill set a lot of big men don't have at his age.

Biggest difference I'd say is Anderson has a 1 on 1 and mid range game (that gets him to the line) while Frye just stands behind the arc and waits for someone to set him up. I thought Frye was going to be a real solid player after his rookie season. Then for whatever reason he stopped playing like a power forward and became a wannabe version of Steve Kerr. Looking at their stats, I had no idea that Anderson was so inefficient. Never shot better than .439 from the field? That's bad for a power forward.

You're absolutely right about his skill set. I'm just saying that if he doesn't toughen up, he might pull a Frye and go from using that skill set to just setting up on the outside while waiting for the ball to kick out to him. I'm more worried about him getting mentally stronger than physically. The physical part will take time but if he doesn't have the mental aspect, then all the tools in the world wont help him be a successful player. I watched more Kentucky games than any other team this year and he would have his jaw dropping moments and then go and cower away when things got tough. I think if he gets stronger upstairs and doesn't break, we'll have a solid player on our hands that will be able to do everything Anderson and Frye can do, plus much more.

 

[Glenn]

I agree with you there. It's just the odds of Mudiay reaching that potential seems pretty low to me. Unless WCS develops a sick offensive game, I don't see him being a game changer the way Mudiay could be. Right now the difference is that we pretty much know that WCS is going to have a place in this league for a long time. Mudiay may not unless he improves quite a bit.

I get taking the chances on the first rounders, I just don't like the positions they play being so redundant.

Trades may take care of that. I was very upset at first except after looking at a few videos I could see potential in Papa. Koufos is pretty darn good trade bait. His age is right. He has decent skills and although the league thinks it is going small, he may be that guy that these small teams need to deal with teams like the, er, Kings as an example

 

[ParniValjak]

For those who were able to catch it, during rookie press conference, Joerger described Skal as a stretch 4. That is not insignificant. If we're not asking him to put on weight and bang down low, that's less that needs to be developed. It's also not a redundant position on this team.

To be honest, not sure this is much of a surprise. The moment we drafted him, I always felt he would be that stretch 4. He has a good jump shot with some nice range on it that can extend to the NBA three. Just makes so much sense to work with him on this part of the game.

It doesn't mean that he shouldn't venture down low and develop that part of his game but I always primarily saw him as a stretch 4 type.

 

[Gilles]

What's the difference between Frye and Ryan Anderson? Not much at all. Role players but valuable when used correctly.

Skal has post moves, from what I've seen. He just doesn't have the strength to finish them in the NBA yet. Much more certain an 18 y.o. will get bigger and stronger than it is to be sure someone learn how to operate in the post. The advantage he has from being thin is he didn't learn to play hoops by just running over and through people on the court (Dwight Howard). He had to learn to handle the ball and move and shoot. So he has a skill set a lot of big men don't have at his age.

Anderson can punish smaller players, when you try to defend him with wings, Frye cannot.

Biggest difference I'd say is Anderson has a 1 on 1 and mid range game (that gets him to the line) while Frye just stands behind the arc and waits for someone to set him up. I thought Frye was going to be a real solid player after his rookie season. Then for whatever reason he stopped playing like a power forward and became a wannabe version of Steve Kerr. Looking at their stats, I had no idea that Anderson was so inefficient. Never shot better than .439 from the field? That's bad for a power forward.

You're absolutely right about his skill set. I'm just saying that if he doesn't toughen up, he might pull a Frye and go from using that skill set to just setting up on the outside while waiting for the ball to kick out to him. I'm more worried about him getting mentally stronger than physically. The physical part will take time but if he doesn't have the mental aspect, then all the tools in the world wont help him be a successful player. I watched more Kentucky games than any other team this year and he would have his jaw dropping moments and then go and cower away when things got tough. I think if he gets stronger upstairs and doesn't break, we'll have a solid player on our hands that will be able to do everything Anderson and Frye can do, plus much more.

When 50% of his shots are from 3 guard-like FG% is to be expected. Considering he's assisted on less than half of his 2s means, that his career .557TS% is more than fine. The only real surprise in his finishing is that he's worse from corners than full arc.

 

[beb0p]

Here is a full game of Panathinaikos. Papagiannis played 9+ minutes. To see him, fast forward to 58:15 and 1:23:22.

I thought he looks sluggish at the U18, but here he looks better. Very active and you can see the mobility that the scouts are talking about. I don't know if it's the conditioning, the reduced role, a more structured offense, or what; but he looks good and if he can play like this every game this guy is worth where he's picked.

.

 

[Bricklayer]

Here is a full game of Panathinaikos. Papagiannis played 9+ minutes. To see him, fast forward to 58:15 and 1:23:22.

I thought he looks sluggish at the U18, but here he looks better. Very active and you can see the mobility that the scouts are talking about. I don't know if it's the conditioning, the reduced role, a more structured offense, or what; but he looks good and if he can play like this every game this guy is worth where he's picked.

.

You know...I still don't know. All the clips and games I have seen its been the same thing.

Pretty much his "goto move" is an alley oop. He spends his time almost exclusively up top in high pick and roll action, and rolls every time. No evidence of a jumper, no idea if he has a post move or can remotely handle.

He's got good hands -- an important trait for a big.

But I'm not sure at all about his timing or awareness on the glass, he never seems to get them. Despite his size, guys seemed to be hitting the shots they got up over him.


I just don't know. I am not going to remotely pass judgement on a guy form a few youtube vids, but I am certainly going to be watching summer league with some interest. The big kid in the vids I've seen looks more like a bench roleplayer than an All Star as Vlade said he could be. I'm eager to see something more once he gets stateside and out of the Panathinkaikos system.

 

[Livinthedream]

You know...I still don't know. All the clips and games I have seen its been the same thing.

Pretty much his "goto move" is an alley oop. He spends his time almost exclusively up top in high pick and roll action, and rolls every time. No evidence of a jumper, no idea if he has a post move or can remotely handle.

He's got good hands -- an important trait for a big.

But I'm not sure at all about his timing or awareness on the glass, he never seems to get them. Despite his size, guys seemed to be hitting the shots they got up over him.


I just don't know. I am not going to remotely pass judgement on a guy form a few youtube vids, but I am certainly going to be watching summer league with some interest. The big kid in the vids I've seen looks more like a bench roleplayer than an All Star as Vlade said he could be. I'm eager to see something more once he gets stateside and out of the Panathinkaikos system.

The impression I got was that he is fluid in his movements and solid in fundamentals.

I picked up on the high post thing too, but it seems as though both teams were running this same type of floor spacing offense. Big Papa didn't appear to have the green light to take shots outside of the scheme. Wide open at the top of the key on one play and he never even looked at the basket. He's not a timid player, so it may be tight reins by the coach.

 

[dude12]

You know...I still don't know. All the clips and games I have seen its been the same thing.

Pretty much his "goto move" is an alley oop. He spends his time almost exclusively up top in high pick and roll action, and rolls every time. No evidence of a jumper, no idea if he has a post move or can remotely handle.

He's got good hands -- an important trait for a big.

But I'm not sure at all about his timing or awareness on the glass, he never seems to get them. Despite his size, guys seemed to be hitting the shots they got up over him.


I just don't know. I am not going to remotely pass judgement on a guy form a few youtube vids, but I am certainly going to be watching summer league with some interest. The big kid in the vids I've seen looks more like a bench roleplayer than an All Star as Vlade said he could be. I'm eager to see something more once he gets stateside and out of the Panathinkaikos system.

Yep..saw same thing. Shot goes up and he watches, is not active to go get positioning. I'm sure that is something he will have to learn. In the first stint, he rotates over as a player is going for a layup. Wasn't necessarily expecting a block but he looked like a slow leaper. Then again, I agree that he was fluid and active in showing on defense. He's a young kid. He's got a ways to go. Can't wait to see SL and get a better look.

 

[beb0p]

You know...I still don't know. All the clips and games I have seen its been the same thing.

Pretty much his "goto move" is an alley oop. He spends his time almost exclusively up top in high pick and roll action, and rolls every time. No evidence of a jumper, no idea if he has a post move or can remotely handle.

He's got good hands -- an important trait for a big.

But I'm not sure at all about his timing or awareness on the glass, he never seems to get them. Despite his size, guys seemed to be hitting the shots they got up over him.

I like that he can catch the ball rolling to the hoop and finishes, he has soft touches and being 7'2" helps. I also detect determination in setting good screens. I know those are basic qualities of an NBA big, but I've seen too many Kings big men struggled doing that in the past. Despite his questionable awareness, I think he can be around a double-digit rebounder due to his size and hopefully improved awareness.

But I do know what you mean. I wouldn't call Papagiannis a difference maker. This is not a kid that struck me as a future All-Star (if it happens, great) but I think he can be a double-double big guy with some shot blocking ability. In this draft, I think what I've seen so far places him right there in terms of potential with Poeltl, who was drafted higher - a useful rotation big man who can possibly turn into a starter.
.

 

[Glenn]

You know...I still don't know. All the clips and games I have seen its been the same thing.

Pretty much his "goto move" is an alley oop. He spends his time almost exclusively up top in high pick and roll action, and rolls every time. No evidence of a jumper, no idea if he has a post move or can remotely handle.

He's got good hands -- an important trait for a big.

But I'm not sure at all about his timing or awareness on the glass, he never seems to get them. Despite his size, guys seemed to be hitting the shots they got up over him.


I just don't know. I am not going to remotely pass judgement on a guy form a few youtube vids, but I am certainly going to be watching summer league with some interest. The big kid in the vids I've seen looks more like a bench roleplayer than an All Star as Vlade said he could be. I'm eager to see something more once he gets stateside and out of the Panathinkaikos system.

I agree with you for the most part but as seems to be always the case, I am a tad more optimistic. If all he can do is be on the receiving end of pick and roll, there aren't many people who can stop him. It's everything else that is the big unknown. Based on nothing factual, of course. I think we both agree he has a place on the team. Simply his height and wing span (7'6") gives him some advantages over Koufos which immediately is our biggest concern. Koufos is more of a polished vet, of course, and we will pay a price if he is replaced by Big George. How much a price and how long is what I don't know.

My big positive view is that I could have grandchildren his age (I don't) and he can learn. It depends on his motivation and intelligence. I am going to believe that Vlade has a fairly accurate understanding of both. Our learning curve on Vlade continues and THAT is what we need to know. How good is Vlade as a GM. I happen to think he knows how to evaluate bigs. Papagiannis is not limited in foot speed and agility, the ultimate limiting factor of a lot of big guys. He has never needed a more sophisticated game. I hope he and WCS become buddies as WCS appears to have a huge work ethic and they are weak offensively in much the same way.

I trust Vlade in picking big European guys.

 

[peacelate]

I read somewhere Papa worked out in front of teams and made like 95/110 3 pt shots or something. That number is probably exaggerated and even slightly, it could be just another Quincy Douby effect where he kills it in practice, but can't reproduce the results in-game.

Looking at video that was released of him shooting jumpshots, he has pretty good form.

 

[jcwkings]

I like that he has good hands and looks pretty agile even defending on the perimeter. Don't forget this is an 18 year old kid who has recently trimmed his body down. Once he gets on an NBA training regimen and diet he should lean down even more and add muscle, he has a good frame. I would expect his vertical jump from two feet will really improve(already pretty good for man his size). Kind of reminds me of Nurkic from the Nuggets. Feel for the game is pretty good, better than most 18 year old prospects coming out of a one and done college season.

 

[Gilles]

I read somewhere Papa worked out in front of teams and made like 95/110 3 pt shots or something. That number is probably exaggerated and even slightly, it could be just another Quincy Douby effect where he kills it in practice, but can't reproduce the results in-game.

Looking at video that was released of him shooting jumpshots, he has pretty good form.

Guards often fail to carry over their shooting from practice due to slow release, so they have to speed up their shooting motion and often don't complete it or even execute it right. Centers have much more time on their hands to launch a shot, so "Quincy Douby effect" is something we shouldn't be in the least concerned regarding big man shooting.
If he really has it, it will show up at some point.

 

[KingsFan80]

Then you should be happy we took the 18-19 year old Papa kid....right? Lol.

No, not even close. Mudiay was the number 2 overall high school recruit coming out according to Rivals and Scout. Nobody has ever heard of Papa. Mudiay isn't a project

 

[KingsFan80]

Mudiay is a turnover machine and will not be an all-star in 3-4 years.

Mudiay is a turnover machine? He started PG at age 19 for an NBA team and did better than 70% of the other point guards in the league. That is a terrible statement. In three years, when he is WCS's age, he will be an all-star, mark it down. WCS wasn't a bad pick, he just wasn't the best pick we could have made. PG's are hard to find and last year we had the answer looking at us and passed on it. This year, we make a bunch of moves to draft a project C and in return couldn't get one of the Suns two PG they are apparently doing everything to trade (Bledsoe and Knight).

The future of this team relies on free agency, which landing a PG and SG is going to be tough due to lack of options and trade wise, other than trading Marco for the 22nd, Vlade has not been able to land a solid player yet in his year or so of being GM. I think everyone gives him a pass because he is a popular former player but if the former GM (Pete) was making these moves everyone would be complaining. I truly don't understand Vlade's strategy with this team for the future.

 

[ESP47]

Mudiay is a turnover machine? He started PG at age 19 for an NBA team and did better than 70% of the other point guards in the league. That is a terrible statement. In three years, when he is WCS's age, he will be an all-star, mark it down. WCS wasn't a bad pick, he just wasn't the best pick we could have made. PG's are hard to find and last year we had the answer looking at us and passed on it. This year, we make a bunch of moves to draft a project C and in return couldn't get one of the Suns two PG they are apparently doing everything to trade (Bledsoe and Knight).

The future of this team relies on free agency, which landing a PG and SG is going to be tough due to lack of options and trade wise, other than trading Marco for the 22nd, Vlade has not been able to land a solid player yet in his year or so of being GM. I think everyone gives him a pass because he is a popular former player but if the former GM (Pete) was making these moves everyone would be complaining. I truly don't understand Vlade's strategy with this team for the future.

Where do you get the idea that Mudiay was better than 70% of the other point guards in the league from? He was one of the worst PG's last year. He gets a pass being a 19 year old rookie but there are no guarantees that he will even be average, let alone an all star.

I don't recall many being upset about the Koufos, Rondo and Belinelli deals last year. It's not Vlade's fault that Belinelli sucked and Karl failed to play to his strengths. No one could have predicted that. Vlade gave us a much better team than we had the previous year and that was held back by Karl's terrible coaching. If Vlade was the GM prior, we'd still have Mike Malone and we would have been knocking on the door of the playoffs last year.

 

[Telemachus]

No, not even close. Mudiay was the number 2 overall high school recruit coming out according to Rivals and Scout. Nobody has ever heard of Papa. Mudiay isn't a project

Coming out of HS, most had Mudiay and Tyus Jones ranked as the top 2 PGs (many had Jones higher than Mudiay). Mudiay went to over seas and played limited due to injuries and was a lottery pick. Jones helped lead Duke to an NCAA championship, and was picked 24th. Skal was ranked 2nd by most this past year and was the 28th pick. If he had done what Mudiay did last year, he may have been a top 5 pick and would definitely been a lottery pick.

My point is that HS rankings are a guide, but prove to be wrong a lot. You have to judge players by watching them play.

 

[KingsFan80]

Where do you get the idea that Mudiay was better than 70% of the other point guards in the league from? He was one of the worst PG's last year. He gets a pass being a 19 year old rookie but there are no guarantees that he will even be average, let alone an all star.

I don't recall many being upset about the Koufos, Rondo and Belinelli deals last year. It's not Vlade's fault that Belinelli sucked and Karl failed to play to his strengths. No one could have predicted that. Vlade gave us a much better team than we had the previous year and that was held back by Karl's terrible coaching. If Vlade was the GM prior, we'd still have Mike Malone and we would have been knocking on the door of the playoffs last year.

How is not Vlade's fault Belinelli sucked? Vlade signed him? So in four years if Papa sucks it won't be Vlade's fault? Louis Williams would have been a ten times better FA last year vs. Marco but Vlade chose to pursue Marco. Karl might have been terrible but you are being naive in thinking Vlade has this brilliant master plan. I personally think he is learning on the job and not 100% sure what he is doing. I am not going to give him a pass because he is a Kings legend. At the end of the day, being a Kings fan is tough business and seeing bad draft pick after bad draft pick is getting old.

 

[Dayo]

Papagiannis interview on The Drive. He confirms he will play in the summer league.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2016/06/29/listen-georgios-papagiannis-on-the-drive/

 

[IfAt1st]

Mudiay is a turnover machine? He started PG at age 19 for an NBA team and did better than 70% of the other point guards in the league. That is a terrible statement. In three years, when he is WCS's age, he will be an all-star, mark it down.

I have marked it down, and I told you I was willing to bet that he won't be.

Would you like to place your avatar where your prediction is?

I bet you that Mudiay will not be an All-Star in three years - the loser has to change their avatar to the winner's choice for the entire 2019 off-season (John Galt knows what's up )

Are you willing to bet?

 

[whozit]

How is not Vlade's fault Belinelli sucked? Vlade signed him? So in four years if Papa sucks it won't be Vlade's fault? Louis Williams would have been a ten times better FA last year vs. Marco but Vlade chose to pursue Marco. Karl might have been terrible but you are being naive in thinking Vlade has this brilliant master plan. I personally think he is learning on the job and not 100% sure what he is doing. I am not going to give him a pass because he is a Kings legend. At the end of the day, being a Kings fan is tough business and seeing bad draft pick after bad draft pick is getting old.

Bad draft pick after bad draft pick? What draft pick has Vlade made that has been proven to be a bad pick?

Yes, Belinelli sucked and yes Vlade signed him so yes that is on him. However if your going to blame him on that contract then he should get credit for his recovery by unloading him for a draft pick. It's not that the GM has to be right every-time but needs to be able to correct and recover on the missteps.

 

[John Galt]

(John Galt knows what's up )

You learn not to take your avatar too seriously... that's for sure.

 

[ESP47]

How is not Vlade's fault Belinelli sucked? Vlade signed him? So in four years if Papa sucks it won't be Vlade's fault? Louis Williams would have been a ten times better FA last year vs. Marco but Vlade chose to pursue Marco. Karl might have been terrible but you are being naive in thinking Vlade has this brilliant master plan. I personally think he is learning on the job and not 100% sure what he is doing. I am not going to give him a pass because he is a Kings legend. At the end of the day, being a Kings fan is tough business and seeing bad draft pick after bad draft pick is getting old.

Belinelli had a track record of being an excellent outside shooter for years. How was Vlade supposed to know that he would all the sudden stink up the joint? It's not like there were any signs or injury risks or anything that Marco was coming off of. Was it a bad signing in hindsight? Yes. Was it a bad signing at the time? No. I distinctly remember the vast majority of people being perfectly happy with us getting Marco. There was no predicting that Marco would stumble that bad after 7-8 years of pretty consistent play. I don't blame Vlade one bit for that.

If Papa sucks then that's 100% on Vlade for reaching for him at 13. Jimmer and Stauskas were terrible picks and the GM's are to be blamed for that. Ben McLemore was a bad pick but you can't blame D'Alessandro for that one. The majority of people were perfectly fine with taking McLemore at the 7th spot because he was considered one of the most talented players left on the board.

Putting a team together is a guessing game no matter how you want to try and twist it. Some GM's make the safe choice, some take risks and some make bone headed decisions that everyone questions. So far, other than taking Papa(and we don't even know if he's a bust or not), Vlade has done an excellent job for a rookie GM. If Papa is a bust, blame him for that but don't blame him for signing Belinelli because there were absolutely no signs that he would fall off a cliff like that. That situation was just pure bad luck for Vlade.

 

[John Galt]

You can only really kill Vlade if Papa John sucks, AND Denzel, Marquese, or Wade turn out really good (depending on how wide your Monday morning QB range is). So lets see in a couple years. Not too unlikely that none of the four amount to a whole lot and it is a wash.

 

[SacTownKid]

Here is a full game of Panathinaikos. Papagiannis played 9+ minutes. To see him, fast forward to 58:15 and 1:23:22.

I thought he looks sluggish at the U18, but here he looks better. Very active and you can see the mobility that the scouts are talking about. I don't know if it's the conditioning, the reduced role, a more structured offense, or what; but he looks good and if he can play like this every game this guy is worth where he's picked.

.

Wow, I'm really impressed with his lateral mobility, I don't think being big and plodding will be an issue if they can move Kosta and replace him with Papagiannis. His pick and roll defense and ability to switch look really nice and could be a huge asset for the Kings from day 1. He got worked in the post and from outside a little but he'll learn. He also doesn't have a ton of length so that could effect his ability as a shot blocker, but he's aggressive so that's a good sign.

 

[ElRey]

I have marked it down, and I told you I was willing to bet that he won't be.

Would you like to place your avatar where your prediction is?

I bet you that Mudiay will not be an All-Star in three years - the loser has to change their avatar to the winner's choice for the entire 2019 off-season (John Galt knows what's up )

Are you willing to bet?

Take the Bet Kingsfan80!!!!! You're always right anyway, nothing to lose !

 

[Glenn]

You can only really kill Vlade if Papa John sucks, AND Denzel, Marquese, or Wade turn out really good (depending on how wide your Monday morning QB range is). So lets see in a couple years. Not too unlikely that none of the four amount to a whole lot and it is a wash.

The "AND" is the operative word. I personally did not see any sure fire players from pick #8 onward. People got excited about this player and that but I think it was because the player might be the BPA but not a decent NBA player. If I am going to take a chance, and I think that is all that was left for us, I would like to go down swinging on a 7'2" agile guy rather than a shorter person. As much as "small ball" seems to be the trend in the NBA, basketball has always been a tall person's sport and the person with the shortest distance to the hoop has an advantage. Perhaps there will be rule changes to benefit big guys. Who knows?

 

[joemama]

I'm pretty sure rondo had a say in good 'ol broken jaw coming here.

Some sort of stipulation in order for rondo to sign as I recall

 

[KingsFan80]

Take the Bet Kingsfan80!!!!! You're always right anyway, nothing to lose !

Sure I will take that bet.. 1) mudiay will be an all-star and better than WCS in 3 years 2) Papa will be a terrible player and not on the Kings anymore in 3 years

Deal?

 

[hrdboild]

I'm pretty sure rondo had a say in good 'ol broken jaw coming here.

Some sort of stipulation in order for rondo to sign as I recall

Is it now Rondo's fault too that Marco shot 30% on threes this year? Getting a shooter wasn't a bad idea -- and by all indications Marco is a reliable shooter. Except that he wasn't for us. Oops. And his poor defense became intolerable when he wasn't even doing the one thing we paid him to do. But you can't evaluate decisions based on evidence that wasn't available at the time. He wasn't a slam dunk of a free agent signing, but he was a sensible one. Just like moving him for a first round pick rather than gambling on a return to his career averages and clearing his 6.3 million in salary off the cap was a sensible decision to make at this time. Decent move to sign him, turned out to be a mistake, so it was erased with a better move to pick up a young SG for the next 4 years. Nothing about this feels like a reason to claim incompetence to me. It's not an exact science and recovering quickly from decisions that turn out to be mistakes is an important part of the job. Nor is it further evidence of Rondo's cancerous ways.

 

[Glenn]

Sure I will take that bet.. 1) mudiay will be an all-star and better than WCS in 3 years 2) Papa will be a terrible player and not on the Kings anymore in 3 years

Deal?

What are the stakes? Just a change of avatar? Who will remember three years from now?

I wonder if there is anyone on this forum who thought Marco would have the kind of year he had. Speak up if you aren't surprised.