LAS vs DET

6th · Jul 22, 2008

I don't like LL, but she's a veteran who has been around the WNBA since the beginning. Her comment at the end of the game were right on.

Pierson started that with a blatant shot at Parker as Candace was down on the floor. Candace reacted quickly and took a shot at Pierson. That was a mistake and totally unnecessary. It did look like Parker was tired of getting pushed around by Detroit. It was all a total shame.

creAtivetfh · Jul 22, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE4s3C93Ex4

the video

PurpleHaze · Jul 22, 2008

Malice at the Palace (Part II)

Some reports say former NBA "enforcer" Asst Coach Rick Mahorn got carried away and instead of restraining his players went after Lisa Leslie shoving at the very least, if not striking her to the ground. This particular video is inconclusive to his deed, but has already entered infamy as "Malice at the Palace (Part II). Mahorn and several players got ejected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njjzbKnPFjE

Purple Reign · Jul 23, 2008

MamaBristow said:

I felt for Leslie as well. I did not feel bad for Ford. She was part of the whole instigation. If you go back one possession before the Sparks Free Throw/Parker-Pierson fracas......Cheryl Ford was at the free throw line; shot and missed, Parker goes for a rebound, Pierson "kind of" roughs her up, but it was Ford who really got in and roughed up Parker HARD in an attempt to take the ball away from her.

I have lost all love for a player I used to admire in Cheryl Ford. She ain't nothing but a whinin, complaining, poor sportsmanship of a player. She has taken the place of Leslie as the most hated player in the league in my mind.

uncommonclay · Jul 23, 2008

it's our fault ...

i blame the Monarch's for puttin' on a humiliating whippin on both teams ... leaving them both a little too chippy for their own good ...

MamaBristow · Jul 23, 2008

Purple Reign said:

I am not a Ford fan by any stretch of the imagination. But she's not to blame for Parker and Pierson losing their tempers and acting like fools. She ripped the ball out of Parker's hands, big deal. Maybe she didn't hear the first whistle, maybe she did and was just acting like a punk cause she was pissed at herself for missing the free throw. Who knows? That still doesn't justify what happened after that, or deserve blame for Parker being a hot-head. Ford didn't go after Parker in the slightest. She was walking away from the key when Parker started going after her. Parker was mad and lost her cool. I don't think Ford should have ripped the ball out like that, but that happens all the time. Maybe if the refs had any semblance of control of this game, they would have given Parker and Ford double techs. But they didn't.

It was clear to everyone there that Parker was losing her cool. Coop was yelling at Marie Ferdinand-Harris to "get her", as in get her away from the mess before she did something stupid. Leslie was trying to talk to Parker to calm her down. Pierson is the one who deserves most of the blame, IMO. She is the one who really pushed it over the top. That box out move was ridiculous.

I can understand disliking Ford, I can't stand her myself. She is a whiner. She was even acting like a punk in the game against the Monarchs and cost her team three points cause she was busy complaining and sitting on her butt instead of getting back on defense. But her being a whiner and one of the most physical players in the league does not make her responsible for the fight between Pierson and Parker. Nor does it mean she deserved busting her knee while trying to break it up.

ETA: early word is that Ford tore the ACL, nothing official yet

NothinButHoops · Jul 23, 2008

I have to agree it was Pierson & her hot temper that got this whole brawl started. Now Parker has some blame as well, she let her emotions get the best of her the play before with Ford.

I keep going back to how the officials could have kept this game from blowing up....& the coaches could have talked to the players.
Who knows what Lambier told them, after he was so hot on the reversed call?

Here's Pierson taunting & standing over Parker.....not cool.

ACL for Ford...that sucks.

Purple Reign · Jul 23, 2008

Here is My Take - If I Were Commissioner

Here is my take:

FIRST INCIDENT
On Detroit’s very last possession of the game, Cheryl Ford was at the free throw line shooting her last free throw which she missed. Upon the miss, Pierson kind of roughed up Parker in attempting to get position for the rebound, at the same time Ford goes in attempting to rebound as well. Parker and Pierson get mixed in pretty hard with one another, Ford goes in attempting to steal the ball from Parker, Parker takes a little shot at Ford, thinking Ford was Pierson, or thinking Pierson was attempting to cheap shot her attempting to get the ball.

SECOND INCIDENT
The Sparks player shooting her final free throw (I do not know who it was) misses. Once again Pierson purposely and aggressively hip checks Parker (NOT ONCE BUT TWICE) in an attempt to get position for the rebound. Parker in her frustration wildly grabs on Pierson and falls to the ground, bring Pierson down. Pierson gets up, forcefully and aggressively storms towards Parker throwing a slight swing. Parker grabs Pierson and commences to swing as well, then all hell breaks loose.

THIRD INCIDENT
In the middle of breaking up the brouhaha, Coach Mahorn attempts to keep Lisa Leslie at bay, trying to hold her back from getting involved. In the midst of her perceived drama queen moment, his hand makes contact, and Leslie trips and falls back onto the floor. While she is falling Mahorn is going towards her with a look of shock on his face while catching a beat down from Delisha Milton-Jones.

OUTCOME
In my opinion the following people in order from greatest to least are most responsible for this incident.

Ms. Plenette Pierson - Her aggressiveness and her instigator actions late in the game were not necessary and eventually drew Parker into this heated confrontation. Pierson for whatever reason wanted to take Parker to task and get a point across. She crossed the line in my view with the second incident and her charging at Parker.

Ms. Candice Parker – Her retaliatory actions towards Ms. Pierson and Ms. Ford though were natural responses to being punked, she escalated the situation with her pulling down Pierson and commencing to whale on her. She could have calmed this situation down by not responding (I know it is difficult), but she played a huge role in the escalation.

Ms. Cheryl Ford – Ford’s going after the ball when the play was whistled dead in the first incident, did not help this situation at all.

The Detroit Bench – If you notice that when Pierson and Parker were skirmishing, the Detroit bench got up and ran into the fray (a clear violation of NBA/WNBA rules). If you notice Coach Laimbeer does all he can to keep them on the bench, but too little, too late and they too escalated the matter.

Lisa Leslie/Delisha Milton – Both of their actions though protection in nature and rightfully so, added to this wild scene.

SUSPENSIONS AND FINES (If I were Donna Orender)
PIERSON – 3 game suspension
PARKER – 2 game suspension
MILTON-JONES – 1 or 2 game suspension for striking a coach. If she was an NBA player, she would be suspended 10 or more games
DETROIT BENCH/LA BENCH – 1 game each (whoever came off of the bench NBA rules)
NOLAN – fined for fighting
FORD – fined
MAHORN – fined lightly. This dude is clearly a victim along with Leslie

It is funny that Laimbeer and Cooper were nowhere involved. Good for them. But their bravado started this mess, they need to chill.

That was fun!!

MamaBristow · Jul 23, 2008

Ford has no culpability, IMO. What happened on the previous play is completely irrelevant. They should have called a technical foul when it happened. You can't go back and say, "Well, ya know, if Cheryl hadn't pissed Parker off on the previous play..." Why not fine everyone who touched Parker the whole second half then? Nobody is responsible for Parker's emotions except Parker herself. She shouldn't let the opposition get in her head so easily.

The only thing the WNBA should be looking at is what happened after Marie Ferdinand-Harris hit that free throw. Nothing that happened before that is relevant.

I am curious about the Mahorn fallout though, I don't think he should really be suspended. And I'm curious what the grounds would be for doing so. Cause from what I saw, he was pushing Marie Ferdinand-Harris and Lisa Leslie back and trying to get them back to their bench. Michael Cooper was doing the exact same thing on the other side. He was pushing Pierson away with Ford and Hornbuckle pulling her at the same time. Coop stopped pushing and turned back to the rest of the chaos when he saw Ford and Hornbuckle had her far enough away. So is Mahorn in trouble because he put his hands on the opposing players? Or is he in trouble because Leslie fell down in the process? If he's in trouble for touching her in the first place, then Coop should be in trouble for the same thing. But I think all the coaches that were out there (Coop, Mahorn, Stanley, Laimbeer) were just trying to get everyone back to their respective benches and stop the fighting.

As far as the suspensions, Parker and Pierson probably need a minimum of 3 games. Because there have to be degrees of punishment to the rest of the players involved. If there's a one game minimum suspension for players that come off the bench, then you can't just give the main instigators one more game than that. And then there's someone like Bobbitt, who came off the bench and ran into the chaos to punch Mahorn. I think that deserves more than a one game suspension. Murriel Page appeared to get into the Mahorn mess as well. Delisha deserves more than the people who just came off the bench, so she probably needs a 2 game suspension.

Either way you slice it, it's one huge mess. And for Detroit, it cost them Cheryl Ford.

StevenHW · Jul 23, 2008

mdme said:

Expect Great Catfights!

AriesMar27 · Jul 23, 2008

no matter what happens, candace parker is still a tall @ss cutie...

MamaBristow · Jul 23, 2008

Detroit Shock's Cheryl Ford to Miss Remainder of 2008 WNBA Season with Right Knee Injury

Purple Reign · Jul 23, 2008

MamaBristow said:

This is terrible. Listen, I am not blaming Ford but regardless of when it happened her reaction, behavior snatching the ball out of Parker's hands during Detroit's last possession no doubt escalated tempers in my mind. That is my opinion.

MamaBristow · Jul 23, 2008

Purple Reign said:

I have no doubt that the incident with Ford helped escalate tempers, we are in agreement on that. It certainly contributed to Parker losing her cool. But I just don't find that relevant to the punishments that should stem from the fight. Ford may have pissed Parker off, but so what? She didn't make Pierson and Parker fight. The refs had their chance to punish Ford with a tech when she ripped the ball away from Parker, but they chose not to. She wasn't involved in the fight itself, and the fight is the punishable act.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

I honestly don't think there would have been a fight if Pierson hadn't gone nutso. Parker's temper was still raging, but I don't think she was gonna go after Ford or anything after the initial flare up. That was done and over with, the Sparks were up 4 after that free throw. Parker had no reason to start a fight, she was going to leave with the win. Pierson however... I think she got exactly what she wanted.

Luv13fan · Jul 23, 2008

Hmmm

How will this shake down for Teams like Indiana and The Monarchs who play tough nose defense that annoys their opponets?

Diana Taurasi for example?
She is in town right?
How many times will she whine before Sho Chelsea and Kara are all sitting on the bench with 5 fouls and she scores 45 from the free throw line.

I have lots of thoughts on this but will post later when i get home from work.

mdme · Jul 24, 2008

The suspensions follow:

* Shock forward Plenette Pierson has been suspended for four games for her actions that initiated and escalated the altercation.
* Shock assistant coach Rick Mahorn has been suspended for two games for escalating the altercation.
* Shock center Kara Braxton has been suspended for one game for leaving the area of the bench during an on-court altercation.
* Shock forward Tasha Humphrey has been suspended for one game for leaving the area of the bench during an on-court altercation.
* Shock guard Elaine Powell has been suspended for one game for leaving the area of the bench during an on-court altercation.
* Shock forward Sheri Sam has been suspended for one game for leaving the area of the bench during an on-court altercation.
* Sparks guard Shannon Bobbitt has been suspended for two games for leaving the area of the bench and becoming physically involved in an on-court altercation.
* Sparks guard Murriel Page has been suspended for two games for leaving the area of the bench and becoming physically involved in an on-court altercation.
* Sparks center Lisa Leslie has been suspended for one game for throwing a punch.
* Sparks forward DeLisha Milton-Jones has been suspended for one game for throwing a punch.
* Sparks forward Candace Parker has been suspended for one game for throwing a punch.

Comments?

I think if they will suspend PP for 4 games they should suspend CP3 for at least two. Obviously they want her back for the game against NYL.

I think Mahorn did not deserve to get suspended.

Delisha should've gotten at least 2 for clearly striking Mahorn.

Why did Nolan not get suspended? she clearly tackled CP3, whether or not it was a peacekeeping move.

thoughts?

PurpleHaze · Jul 24, 2008

mdme said:

I watched carefully both head coaches and all of the assistants involved. Mahorn was the most out of line I thought. Maybe he shouldn't have been suspended but he clearly moved aggressively toward Lisa Leslie - not restraining any of his Detroit players. He pushed, shoved, or struck Leslie to the ground as she appeared to wave a fist at him. The two head coaches were waving arms frantically trying to keep players on their respective benches off the court and moving towards their team members to diffuse. The other assistants were doing the same calm peacemaking with one Detroit assistant (female) getting up in Mahorn's face fast to keep him toned down.

Mahorn was struck in the back once or glancing blows twice by Delisha. Maybe the league counted it one and thus one game suspension because if it had been two blows perhaps she would have been suspended more. Mahorn is around 50 years old and something like 6'8 330 lbs. I doubt he barely felt the little "bug out" taps on his back from Delisha.

Den-Den · Jul 24, 2008

The league really missed an opportunity to do the right thing and punish it's "star" for her involvement in this melee. No way should Parker have only gotten a one game suspension. She also escalated this mess. Smacks of favoritism, and sadly, I think, makes the league look bad. A punch plus an escalation should have been 2-3 games. No way shouled Bobbitt and Paige have gotten more of a punishment than Parker.

Guess Koz had it right last night on Monarchs Talk when he said that one of the Monarchs had said something like "never go after "the face", don't hit "the face", anyone but "the face".

6th · Jul 24, 2008

1 game for throwing a punch and 1 game for leaving the bench area. Doesn't seem very balanced. I would give 2 games for throwing a punch. IMO - it is a lot worse than simply leaving your bench.

StevenHW · Jul 24, 2008

Today, the Shock signed 50-year-old Nancy Lieberman to a playing contract!

That might be the Detroit Shock's most cruelest penalty than any of the suspensions!

kings4lyfe32 · Jul 24, 2008

mdme said:

I don't think he deserved a suspension either, at least not two games. My first reaction on seeing it was that Mahorn didn't do anything except try to hold Lisa Leslie back and she floped. Two games seems very unfair

6th · Jul 24, 2008

kings4lyfe32 said:

He did not try to hold her back, he pushed his hands and arms forward. I'd give him a suspension for pushing the other's team's player (but only one game). Lisa may have lost her balance when she was pushed, but I did not think it was a flop.

mdme · Jul 24, 2008

could you imagine if LA and SAC made it to the WCF and then the WNBA repeats history by favoring the "big market" team and robs a hard working Sac team of a finals and possibly a title?

mdme · Jul 24, 2008

Den-Den said:

could you imagine if LA and SAC made it to the WCF and then the WNBA repeats history by favoring the "big market" team and robs a hard working Sac team of a finals and possibly a title?

Monty'sBiggestFan · Jul 25, 2008

Here's what I think the league used as a reference point...these were punishments doled out by Val Ackerman for the fight up in Seattle back in 2002.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/wnba/78437_marciniak13.shtml

If it's precedential to give the higher penalty to the instigator and a proportionately lesser penalty to the retaliator....

Back to Det/LA

Completely agree that equating "leaving the area of the bench" with "throwing a punch" is illogical at best and ludicrous at worst. I continue to lean towards the latter. Unless throwing a punch and landing a punch is different. But they seem to penalize both the same which again makes this stupid.
If Parker gets 1 game for throwing a punch, which punch are they penalizing? I saw two. The one Matt Sheppard talked about on M's Talk last night - the one Parker landed into Pierson's stomach after the hip check and before they both fall to the ground. AND a swing when Pierson comes over at her. If it was the first punch and that's the retaliation to the hip check, then Parker escalated too. Or maybe instigated since it didn't appear that the refs had an issue with it unless things got out of control before they could call it. No way tho, Parker gets off with just a game.
Not sure that I agree with it tho but, I'm guessing that Mahorn gets the escalation whammy because the refs on the floor felt he pushed Leslie. If they didn't, there's no reason why he would have been ejected. The refs I think tied the league's hands on him and Leslie. Because they didn't eject her.
Now, isn't there a rule somewhere I thought it was the NBA or perhaps it's in another sport....if you throw a punch but don't land it, it's bad, but if you throw one and connect it's really bad? See: DeLisha Milton-Jones and anybody else who hit Mahorn. The only one who should get the freebie "retaliation" excuse is Leslie. Totally agree Milton haaaaaaaaaas to had to get more than 1 game simply because she got tossed for smacking on Mahorn. Bobbitt and Page should have gotten tossed too if the actions are similar.
Good question about Nolan, if Mahorn got pegged for his actions then Nolan should have too, peacekeeping or not. I guess because nobody tried to punch her for doing it, the refs saw it as something that helped de-escalate the situation because it stopped Parker and Pierson from rolling blows. The other side to it tho is..is that what caused Leslie to want to come through Mahorn's stop sign/push whatever? If it is, then it escalated...and should be equal to Mahorn

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