[Game] Kings v. Nuggets - Monday, Oct. 28 - 7PT

[burekijogurt]

It all depends on how you define "playmaker." Curry makes plays, but he's not the typical pg that brings the ball up the court and initiates the action most of the time. Overall, I think Bogs played better in this game because he was the recipient of passes that allowed him to do more with the ball, not the quintessential pg. Where Bogs is poor is where he starts from a standstill, the defense is set, and he tries to penetrate the defense on his own.

After watching him play for a couple seasons now, I'm pretty convinced that his playmaking is not a winning NBA play. He could wind up with 5 assists and 1 turnover in 25 minutes of play, which looks good on paper but it doesn't account for the 10 extremely low percentage shots that were either taken by him or had to be taken by another player outside of those 5 assists that he got. I think he would be much better used coming off screens and as a last resort type playmaker.

I am not disagreeing with what you two are saying about Bogdan's abiIity I am questioning (asking?) whether there is someone on the Kings that can do it better?(obviously we are not talking about Fox here).

To use ESP47's example, if we used someone else to playmake, would the number of low percentage shots taken drop to 5, stay at 10, or go to 15? how about those ast/tos? this is what we have to find out. My guess is that since both Joerger and Walton are using him in this role, they beleive there was/is no one better. Thats why I'm saying we should have CoJo playmake (assume Bogdan's role in the second unit) for about 10 games straight to make this determination.

 

[SacTownKid]

Im unsure about what a 1/2 man is (maybe I need an explanation), but i think hammering out your rotation falls under standard roster adjustment, and not fine tuning. You're right that joseph wasnt paid to sit on the bench, but he also hasnt exactly made a compelling case as the backup. I feel the pace drops as soon as he enters the game. That's really my main gripe.

It's means minutes wise most nights he'll probably average out as the 9th or 10th most used player, so you split it. It's how classic rotations are typically run. That last man isn't always featured and more than anyone their minutes are most flexed.

 

[ESP47]

I am not disagreeing with what you two are saying about Bogdan's abiIity I am questioning (asking?) whether there is someone on the Kings that can do it better?(obviously we are not talking about Fox here).

To use ESP47's example, if we used someone else to playmake, would the number of low percentage shots taken drop to 5, stay at 10, or go to 15? how about those ast/tos? this is what we have to find out. My guess is that since both Joerger and Walton are using him in this role, they beleive there was/is no one better. Thats why I'm saying we should have CoJo playmake (assume Bogdan's role in the second unit) for about 10 games straight to make this determination.

That's part of the problem. I don't think we have anyone that can do it better. CoJo's per36 assists and ast/to ratios have been about on par with Bogie's for the last couple years. Ariza's aren't as good but pretty close to both of them last year. Yogi is about the same level as Ariza, maybe slightly better. Giles is a total wild card. Now that's just looking at their stats. I haven't seen enough of Ariza and CoJo to be able to tell you what they can do as far as how the possessions wind up outside of those assists and turnovers. We've seen plenty of Bogie and we've seen enough of Yogi to know that he's more of a combo guard than a guy who can come in and run the offense. Currently I don't think we have enough playmaking to get by on the second unit unless Giles comes in, stays healthy and at least performs at a poor man's Webber rate this year.

The second unit is more than likely going to need one of two things. Either a set system in place, where the system can help with the playmaking. That way it's not just read and react...which isn't a strong suit of the current non Fox playmakers on the roster. Or it's going to need a player like Bagley that can create on his own. CoJo, Bogie, Holmes, Ariza and whoever else you want to plug in aren't very good at shot creation so someone is going to need to do it off the bench. I don't like what I've seen from Bagley as far as his 1 on 1 skills go against NBA starters but so far against backups they've been acceptable. That should be a shot in the arm when he comes back if Walton is willing to keep Beli starting while giving Bagley a bigger role off the bench. If that's not the case then I can't really see how they can be successful unless a trade is made or Giles miraculously turns into Jokic.

 

[SacTownKid]

I am not disagreeing with what you two are saying about Bogdan's abiIity I am questioning (asking?) whether there is someone on the Kings that can do it better?(obviously we are not talking about Fox here).

To use ESP47's example, if we used someone else to playmake, would the number of low percentage shots taken drop to 5, stay at 10, or go to 15? how about those ast/tos? this is what we have to find out. My guess is that since both Joerger and Walton are using him in this role, they beleive there was/is no one better. Thats why I'm saying we should have CoJo playmake (assume Bogdan's role in the second unit) for about 10 games straight to make this determination.

Joseph can make some plays but Vlade didn't sign playmakers this summer. Not a one really so that would probably be one of those square pegs in a round hole. This is a player that's been in the league 9 years now and in his career year was a 9 ppg 3 ish apg player. It's possible he could do something he's never really done for an extended stretch but you also risk losing him for what he can do well.

 

[SacTownKid]

That's part of the problem. I don't think we have anyone that can do it better. CoJo's per36 assists and ast/to ratios have been about on par with Bogie's for the last couple years. Ariza's aren't as good but pretty close to both of them last year. Yogi is about the same level as Ariza, maybe slightly better. Giles is a total wild card. Now that's just looking at their stats. I haven't seen enough of Ariza and CoJo to be able to tell you what they can do as far as how the possessions wind up outside of those assists and turnovers. We've seen plenty of Bogie and we've seen enough of Yogi to know that he's more of a combo guard than a guy who can come in and run the offense. Currently I don't think we have enough playmaking to get by on the second unit unless Giles comes in, stays healthy and at least performs at a poor man's Webber rate this year.

The second unit is more than likely going to need one of two things. Either a set system in place, where the system can help with the playmaking. That way it's not just read and react...which isn't a strong suit of the current non Fox playmakers on the roster. Or it's going to need a player like Bagley that can create on his own. CoJo, Bogie, Holmes, Ariza and whoever else you want to plug in aren't very good at shot creation so someone is going to need to do it off the bench. I don't like what I've seen from Bagley as far as his 1 on 1 skills go against NBA starters but so far against backups they've been acceptable. That should be a shot in the arm when he comes back if Walton is willing to keep Beli starting while giving Bagley a bigger role off the bench. If that's not the case then I can't really see how they can be successful unless a trade is made or Giles miraculously turns into Jokic.

I still think the majority of any issues with playmaking in the games prior to this one had to do with the fact that there weren't a lot of plays to be made. They finally spaced the floor last night and surprise, surprise there were passing lanes again. Side to side ball movement at the 3 point line when a player draws the defense isn't rocket science. The only thing I'm seeing out of Bogdan that is concerning is that he's starting to turn down pick and rolls and instead drive the opposite way. That's not his strength and probably won't ever be. His step back jumper is a better option but he also settled for that at times. He'll figure it out.

 

[jellyfish]

Fox/Holmes/Bjelica played well the rest of the team..............not looking good at all.

 

[burekijogurt]

That's part of the problem. I don't think we have anyone that can do it better. CoJo's per36 assists and ast/to ratios have been about on par with Bogie's for the last couple years. Ariza's aren't as good but pretty close to both of them last year. Yogi is about the same level as Ariza, maybe slightly better. Giles is a total wild card. Now that's just looking at their stats. I haven't seen enough of Ariza and CoJo to be able to tell you what they can do as far as how the possessions wind up outside of those assists and turnovers. We've seen plenty of Bogie and we've seen enough of Yogi to know that he's more of a combo guard than a guy who can come in and run the offense. Currently I don't think we have enough playmaking to get by on the second unit unless Giles comes in, stays healthy and at least performs at a poor man's Webber rate this year.

The second unit is more than likely going to need one of two things. Either a set system in place, where the system can help with the playmaking. That way it's not just read and react...which isn't a strong suit of the current non Fox playmakers on the roster. Or it's going to need a player like Bagley that can create on his own. CoJo, Bogie, Holmes, Ariza and whoever else you want to plug in aren't very good at shot creation so someone is going to need to do it off the bench. I don't like what I've seen from Bagley as far as his 1 on 1 skills go against NBA starters but so far against backups they've been acceptable. That should be a shot in the arm when he comes back if Walton is willing to keep Beli starting while giving Bagley a bigger role off the bench. If that's not the case then I can't really see how they can be successful unless a trade is made or Giles miraculously turns into Jokic.

I generally agree.

Walton also mentioned that the second unit consistently beat the starters in training camp, so they have enough playmaking for that at least .

I have not rewatched yet, but Walton was probably right when he said the trouble came once Denver started switching everything in the third. 5 of Bogdan's 6 assits came in the first half, I believe, when he was able to turn that slight advantage of defense going over the pick to create something. maybe they need to work on that as well.

 

[burekijogurt]

Joseph can make some plays but Vlade didn't sign playmakers this summer. Not a one really so that would probably be one of those square pegs in a round hole. This is a player that's been in the league 9 years now and in his career year was a 9 ppg 3 ish apg player. It's possible he could do something he's never really done for an extended stretch but you also risk losing him for what he can do well.

I think Vlade beleived he was addressing the backup PG issue when signing CoJo. from the defensive side of the ball, yes, but yeah, does not seem like he is the secondary playmker we need.

 

[kingdivac]

I agree with your first paragraph. But with your comment about their defence, I wonder if you watched the game? Because, with the exception of getting out muscled on the boards (not including Holmes), they played pretty good defence last night.

I thought their defense looked average overall against the Nuggets...and that's a testament to how poor its been. And that takes into account horrible defensive rebounding.

 

[jellyfish]

Bogdonovic spends all of his game and effort on FIBA. The Kings just support his lifestyle.

I bet we could acquire the majority of team Serbia's roster. We would win more games.

Well yeah we would have Jokic

 

[KingsFanSince85]

After watching him play for a couple seasons now, I'm pretty convinced that his playmaking is not a winning NBA play. He could wind up with 5 assists and 1 turnover in 25 minutes of play, which looks good on paper but it doesn't account for the 10 extremely low percentage shots that were either taken by him or had to be taken by another player outside of those 5 assists that he got. I think he would be much better used coming off screens and as a last resort type playmaker.

Agreed. There was a time early on when he looked great in the PnR with WCS, but that suddenly slowed to a crawl. We haven’t seen much of that play making since.

I also feel his shooting is much more erratic than I thought it would be. Shot selection is part of the problem, but he misses far too many open shots than he should.

 

[jellyfish]

I agree about the secondary playmaker need which is why I was screaming all off-season to sign Brogdan. Bucks could have used Bogie at the time as well.......

 

[kingdivac]

Fox/Holmes/Bjelica played well the rest of the team..............not looking good at all.

Fox looked excellent in the 1st half, and average in the 2nd, Hield had a very poor game for his standards. It was a winnable game but as usual a terrible 3rd sunk em.

 

[Turgenev]

I haven't been able to watch a game this season yet (with exception of the Melbourne pre season game).

The first few games were disappointing in that they were so bad, and that the comments here suggested no offence, no defence. It does sound like they've improved. I don't think getting rid of DJ was the wrong decision.

I wonder if Luke Walton's style is such a shift from DJ's that the team will just have to go through this awful learning curve before putting some consistent w's together. Wait and see...

 

[rosa u podne]

The main difference with this third quarter was that the starters played reasonably well to start out the third but then the team collapsed the second Walton went to the bench and Bogi started playing like post-Achilles Kobe.

Nuggets are 12, maybe even 13 rotational players deep. They did not play MPJ, nor Juancho, I think. They also sent Bol Bol to G league. I mean, their bench is extremely strong, and the Kings bench lost Giles and Bjelica.

 

[rosa u podne]

I realize Joker isn’t the most athletic dude around but how is this not at least a flagrant.

https://twitter.com/statuses/1189032789951139841

This is not a foul at all, but it is a dirty play. I dislike it even more than Harden's tricks.

 

[rosa u podne]

They should really get another challenge if they win it. If the refs suck, we shouldn’t be limited to just 1 chance to show the ref they suck.

Exactly, they should design the same challenge rule as in tennis.

 

[Kingster]

I am not disagreeing with what you two are saying about Bogdan's abiIity I am questioning (asking?) whether there is someone on the Kings that can do it better?(obviously we are not talking about Fox here).

To use ESP47's example, if we used someone else to playmake, would the number of low percentage shots taken drop to 5, stay at 10, or go to 15? how about those ast/tos? this is what we have to find out. My guess is that since both Joerger and Walton are using him in this role, they beleive there was/is no one better. Thats why I'm saying we should have CoJo playmake (assume Bogdan's role in the second unit) for about 10 games straight to make this determination.

If a playmaker is a player who gets assists (or even hockey assists) then there are going to be multiple playmakers on this team - Bogs, Giles, Cojo, Bjelica, (Fox) and others. And to be clear, I think Bogs played better or was used better or both in the last game because he wasn't doing the dribble, dribble, dribble routine as much in the last game.

 

[rosa u podne]

I agree with your first paragraph. But with your comment about their defence, I wonder if you watched the game? Because, with the exception of getting out muscled on the boards (not including Holmes), they played pretty good defence last night.

Jokic is very good if not a great rebounder. He uses his anticipation, positioning, and bulk to secure OR, especially after his own misses. Several other Denver players are athletic and attack the rim for putbacks. The Kings are just the latest victim.

 

[rosa u podne]

Twenty-five assists, 12 turnovers, against one of the better teams in the league. Very impressive. The shooting wasn't very good though. Didn't hit a lot of open shots. With that kind of shooting you expect a team to get blown out, but the Kings made up for it in other areas.

The Kings starting unit actually matches well with Nuggets on offense. Jamal Murray is a poor defender, so is Barton when defends SFs. Neither Jokic nor Milsap is a good rim protector. The Kings plan A should have been (haven't watched ) attacking Murray and going to the rim or kicking out to Buddy/Namanja. Plan B, isolating Barns on Barton. The problem is, Nuggets are a good P&R team, so they can also score at will.

 

[kingdivac]

If a playmaker is a player who gets assists (or even hockey assists) then there are going to be multiple playmakers on this team - Bogs, Giles, Cojo, Bjelica, (Fox) and others. And to be clear, I think Bogs played better or was used better or both in the last game because he wasn't doing the dribble, dribble, dribble routine as much in the last game.

For some reason, maybe fellow countryman-connection, Bogdan seems to play a bit more energized with Bjelica on the floor. Walton needs to recognize that like.....now. I think it's like variant of the brothers syndrome, where they will play harder together, and likewise against each other.

 

[NewArena]

Watching the Lakers now, and I’m pretty sure the tone in here would be different if the league gifted us with Charlotte and Memphis games back to BACK.

Must be nice

 

[NewArena]

And then there’s plays like this one......

https://twitter.com/statuses/1189029659020689408

Fox routinely gets mugged on the way to the basket and NO one has ever been able to answer why he doesn’t get calls

This is disgusting

 

[Tetsujin]

Watching the Lakers now, and I’m pretty sure the tone in here would be different if the league gifted us with Charlotte and Memphis games back to BACK.

Must be nice

yeah. Not trying to make excuses because the Kings have flat out sucked 3/4 games to start the season but boy howdee did the league give us a crap schedule.

 

[NewArena]

yeah. Not trying to make excuses because the Kings have flat out sucked 3/4 games to start the season but boy howdee did the league give us a crap schedule.

For sure. I loved our effort in the last game, and i know we sucked before that, but my goodness. It’s not even close in terms of strength of schedule.

People can say “it evens out” all they want, but there’s a lot to be said for morale and early chemistry that obviously builds with an easy win or two.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

This is not a foul at all, but it is a dirty play. I dislike it even more than Harden's tricks.

I disagree. It's both a foul and a dirty play. Can't just run and stop right in the path of another player without being completely set.

But regardless, there's nothing really to be gained by doing it other than to possibly injure.

 

[Tetsujin]

I disagree. It's both a foul and a dirty play. Can't just run and stop right in the path of another player without being completely set.

But regardless, there's nothing really to be gained by doing it other than to possibly injure.

To be fair, there is a good chance that rather than trying to do anything dirty, Jokic is simply so slow and athletic that it only looked like he was trying to set a dirty pick.

 

[rosa u podne]

I disagree. It's both a foul and a dirty play. Can't just run and stop right in the path of another player without being completely set.

But regardless, there's nothing really to be gained by doing it other than to possibly injure.

He was completely set. And there was the intention, he suddenly stopped and rose his butt.

 

[rosa u podne]

For sure. I loved our effort in the last game, and i know we sucked before that, but my goodness. It’s not even close in terms of strength of schedule.

People can say “it evens out” all they want, but there’s a lot to be said for morale and early chemistry that obviously builds with an easy win or two.

Well, how it is even when the Kings never play lowly Kings, especially when it is their 2nd game of B2B?

Joking aside, timing matters, not just opponents. B2B, traveling distance etc.

 

[Tetsujin]

He was completely set. And there was the intention, he suddenly stopped and rose his butt.

He wasn’t though. While a normal NBA player would have been set, Jokic and his huge frame was still moving.