FTs are gonna be the scourge or low hanging fruit for this particular team
Kings / Suns Game Thread
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FTs are gonna be the scourge or low hanging fruit for this particular team
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Judging from how Dallas is playing Doncic, he wouldn't have been that guy.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
But Doncic is young and so any mistake he makes is going to be forgiven whereas Bagley (who skipped his last year of high school ball and is also very young) is going to be a failure no matter what.
The last block Bagley made on Ayton was excellent. Nevermind Bagley's draft position, if he can come in and bring defense (which I was surprised at) game in and game out, it'll be be a fair season for him. He may not have great offensive numbers, but his role and energy will work team-wise. And if he can block Ayton on a power move, he can block most anyone in the league. Now if only Cauley-Stein would be more aggressive. I was hoping the Kings picked Jackson Jr for his defense, but if Bagley decides he wants to embrace the role, it'll be unexpectedly fortuitous. If the team picks up their defense and rebounding I'm ok with poor offense - just not missed FTs! The goal should be 80% team FT %.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Ayton was featured on offense. Bagley was not. Ayton played with the support of starters. Bagley did not. I mean, even with the second unit, the plays were run for Giles on offense and Bagley was left to float around and fend for himself. If the Kings want Bagley to be their best player right out of the gate, then you feature him. I get the feeling the coaching staff is not as concerned with him being that guy today as the fans are. It's still a Joerger coached team, who notoriously does not like relying on inexperienced players. That is my takeaway.
John Galt
Starter
wait what? Sooooooo... you're saying you would have preferred that the Kings draft Doncic?j. ohhhhh now I get it. Sorry.
sactowndog
All-Star
If Yogi looks like that and Fox shoots 1-5 from three and makes bad decisions on offense we will see a lot of the Yogi-Bogi back court.
Joerger's days are numbered. I know, I know...it's only one preseason game. The offense is the same and it's not going to change without a coaching change. The only difference is Fox is allowed to be more aggressive before running a play. Otherwise, it's the same old crap we've seen time and time again. I just can't wrap my head around his reliance on running the offense through WCS. I can count on one hand, maybe two, the amount of centers that have played in the NBA that you could run a successful offense through in the high post and for whatever reason this guy thinks WCS is that guy. He had good numbers but the numbers don't tell the whole story because it was just turnover after turnover and flubbed possession after flubbed possession in the first half when running the offense through him in the high post.
Bagley struggled badly in summer league when forced to play 1 on 1 on the block so what does Joerger have him do? Play 1 on 1 on the block all game. Genius. Why adapt and play to your players strengths when you don't have to, right? Clock is ticking on Dave.
Justin Jackson was out there doing Justin Jacksony things like not scoring, rebounding, passing or defending.
Josh Jackson on the other hand is going to be a fantastic player in this league and a thorn in our side for years. Ayton as well but there's just something really annoying about Josh Jackson. Wish he was on our team.
Now for the good....Yogi was fantastic. He's not going to shoot like that every game but if he just has an average Yogi game, the Kings probably score about 92 points so he was easily the player of the game. Skal was invisible on the boards but he hit a nice 3 and had a run in the 3rd quarter where he seemed to score on a few possessions all in a row.
Bagley's block on Ayton was fantastic. So far his defense at the 5 has been much better than at the 4. Willie had a great night rebounding. Buddy was the bad Buddy we've seen but he had a sweet pass around Ayton that he dropped to WCS for an easy slam. He is also misused in this offense. Should be treated like he's JJ Redick but the offense doesn't really open anything up for him other than 1 on 1 matchups in which he's not good at. Fox looks great with his new found aggressiveness. Put the Suns guards in foul trouble and is better at finishing at the rim through contact. That step back 3 was sweet as well.
Giles played like a rookie with potential. That 3 he hit off that screen after that timeout looked like a play a SF would make. He seems to do a couple things a game that make you go "whoa". Didn't play as good on the defensive end as I was hoping this game but you can see the potential everywhere from this guy. Mason's numbers looked decent in the end but he didn't look particularly effective out there. McLemore played like McLemore which is still better than JJ sadly.
That's my long winded recap for those of you who didn't get to watch.
Bagley struggled badly in summer league when forced to play 1 on 1 on the block so what does Joerger have him do? Play 1 on 1 on the block all game. Genius. Why adapt and play to your players strengths when you don't have to, right? Clock is ticking on Dave.
Justin Jackson was out there doing Justin Jacksony things like not scoring, rebounding, passing or defending.
Josh Jackson on the other hand is going to be a fantastic player in this league and a thorn in our side for years. Ayton as well but there's just something really annoying about Josh Jackson. Wish he was on our team.
Now for the good....Yogi was fantastic. He's not going to shoot like that every game but if he just has an average Yogi game, the Kings probably score about 92 points so he was easily the player of the game. Skal was invisible on the boards but he hit a nice 3 and had a run in the 3rd quarter where he seemed to score on a few possessions all in a row.
Bagley's block on Ayton was fantastic. So far his defense at the 5 has been much better than at the 4. Willie had a great night rebounding. Buddy was the bad Buddy we've seen but he had a sweet pass around Ayton that he dropped to WCS for an easy slam. He is also misused in this offense. Should be treated like he's JJ Redick but the offense doesn't really open anything up for him other than 1 on 1 matchups in which he's not good at. Fox looks great with his new found aggressiveness. Put the Suns guards in foul trouble and is better at finishing at the rim through contact. That step back 3 was sweet as well.
Giles played like a rookie with potential. That 3 he hit off that screen after that timeout looked like a play a SF would make. He seems to do a couple things a game that make you go "whoa". Didn't play as good on the defensive end as I was hoping this game but you can see the potential everywhere from this guy. Mason's numbers looked decent in the end but he didn't look particularly effective out there. McLemore played like McLemore which is still better than JJ sadly.
That's my long winded recap for those of you who didn't get to watch.
jcwkings
All-Star
I don't know if this is sarcasm or Stockholm Syndrome. It was bad, everyone looked lost. It was almost like Dave Joerger putting up a big middle finger to Vivek and Vlade saying "this is what you gave me".
Livinthedream
All-Star
This board has hit a new level of negativity when we sit our starters most of the game, get the win in preseason and half of the people are freaking out about how bad we are. My goodness. There is a difference between being a realist and just being a pessimist.
It's a rebuild. It won't be pretty and there are no guarantees. That's how all rebuilds go.
Doncic was not going to save this team from the rebuild process. IF Doncic was going to play the 3 for us, he replaces Bogi as far as his skillset. That's IF Doncic can reliably guard the 3. Otherwise, he's a stretch 4 with an average jumper. Nobody was saying man....if we just had a little better version of Bogi, our problems are solved. We are multiple moves and development time away from being relevant.
It's a rebuild. It won't be pretty and there are no guarantees. That's how all rebuilds go.
Doncic was not going to save this team from the rebuild process. IF Doncic was going to play the 3 for us, he replaces Bogi as far as his skillset. That's IF Doncic can reliably guard the 3. Otherwise, he's a stretch 4 with an average jumper. Nobody was saying man....if we just had a little better version of Bogi, our problems are solved. We are multiple moves and development time away from being relevant.
twslam07
All-Star
I saw remarks that it was bad offensively, and I can understand that. How did it fare defensively in halfcourt sets? Or was it just a bunch of fastbreaks against us after we turned the ball over?
twslam07
All-Star
Having multiple high IQ & unselfish playmakers is not redundant. I don't know why people continue to try and hammer home this narrative. Teams need multiple playmakers. It's probably just easier for individuals to conceptualize when it comes to how an offense works, and I imagine it goes like this...
Player A has the ball and makes the decisions. Therefore, Player B (who is also a good playmaker) is wasting his playmaking talents thus he is redundant.
That's not how basketball works...in the slightest. I could only imagine how well the ball would move from teammate to teammate with guys like Bogdan & Doncic making the correct read over and over again. The other thing to keep in mind is that having multiple playmakers allows you to take advantage of your most favorable matchup. If you have a guy like Beverley or Holiday guarding our PG but someone like Luke Babbit guarding our SF, put Babbit in the pick and roll. If you have someone like Isaiah Thomas guarding our PG but Kawhi Leonard guarding our SF, put Thomas in the pick and roll. The addition of Chris Paul to Houston allowed them to not only keep a great playmaker on the floor for 48 minutes, but it also allowed them to exploit favorable matchups.
If you want to talk about redundant, how about you look at our plethora of big man prospects. Is Bagley's talent redundant because Giles projects to be an athletic big with a high motor who can be a good rebounder? Why do you not make that point? Why only stop with Doncic & Bogdanovic?
!!!!!!!
I couldn't watch but I peeked in the game threads here and on reddit and all I heard about is a) how awesome Ayton is (as an Arizona fan I knew even as a 1 pick a lot slept on him) b) how terrible Bagley looked.
Very little about the score.
Which is strange, because I know it's preseason and meaningless, but, uh, we won?
Very little about the score.
Which is strange, because I know it's preseason and meaningless, but, uh, we won?
How is a playmaker considered a stretch 4? Doncic is better than Bogdan now at 19 this he’s a little better than Bogi y’all is absurd plus I’d rather stack up on high IQ playmakers than bigs who are just gonna be pick and roll finishers.
Livinthedream
All-Star
I wasn't touching on basketball IQ or playmaking specifically. Those things are abstract and subjective and I rarely use those terms. What you described in you example are players being able to execute a play. That comes from coaching, situational awareness and execution. Some will be better than others at it, but it's not some magical gift. Less athletic players learn these things earlier in life out of necessity. But it's learned.
I think it's a foregone conclusion that we aren't keeping all of our bigs. Giles and Bagley are here. One of either Skal or WCS goes. I'm not even sure I know what we're doing with Bagley yet because it appears they want to take advantage of his athleticism and play him in 3 different offensive positions, which will stretch out his learning curve. Giles and Skal at the 4 and 5. There is potentially more versatility with our bigs than with Doncic. So no, not as redudant. Doncic is not guarding the 1, not guarding the 2 and will struggle with the guarding the 3. That's where you lose versatility and teams like Houston start taking advantage of mismatches.
kingsfan101
Starter
One problem Bagley faces (which was a possible problem picking him) is the glut of front court players we have.
Even discounting the vets, we have Willie, Skal, and Giles. While Willie and Skal are not everyone's favorites, you have to see where they take you, or what they can get you. A team, particularly one like ours relying so much on kids, can't afford to give up on them.
Suns can (and should) design their plan keeping Ayton's skills in mind. He will know where he will play, how many minutes he'll get, what his role will be, etc. In our case, we don't know if Bagley will start/come off the bench, play 4 or 5, low/high post, other players/bigs he shall share the floor with, number of minutes he'll see, etc. It's not a recipe for success.
Despite this, picking him was the correct choice if the FO was convinced he's the better long term player. Players don't become stars/super stars based on talent alone though. They need the system and structure to maximize their talent. Drafting him is only a small part of the fix. Vlade needs to be active to clean up the roster. If Willie/Skal show good improvement, it might be easier to package them with many of our other assets (space/expirings/huge number of second rounders/some additional kid) to get something of value back.
Even discounting the vets, we have Willie, Skal, and Giles. While Willie and Skal are not everyone's favorites, you have to see where they take you, or what they can get you. A team, particularly one like ours relying so much on kids, can't afford to give up on them.
Suns can (and should) design their plan keeping Ayton's skills in mind. He will know where he will play, how many minutes he'll get, what his role will be, etc. In our case, we don't know if Bagley will start/come off the bench, play 4 or 5, low/high post, other players/bigs he shall share the floor with, number of minutes he'll see, etc. It's not a recipe for success.
Despite this, picking him was the correct choice if the FO was convinced he's the better long term player. Players don't become stars/super stars based on talent alone though. They need the system and structure to maximize their talent. Drafting him is only a small part of the fix. Vlade needs to be active to clean up the roster. If Willie/Skal show good improvement, it might be easier to package them with many of our other assets (space/expirings/huge number of second rounders/some additional kid) to get something of value back.
Danny Angie drafted Tatum a year after drafting Brown when Brown showed way more potential than Fox. A year later reports say he was high on Doncic and wanted to trade up again to get another 6’9 wing. That’s a guy who gets it, you stack up on wing players not bigs that can’t shoot. Or drafting cause you don’t want to take the ball out of your PGs hand like that PG is Steph Curry
While that's true, him and Doncic are the same age. He played his freshman and sophomore years in Arizona. In his junior year, he transferred to a HS in California. However, he was ruled ineligible to play basketball that year due to some rules. So he basically sat out a year, and then played the following year. So his senior year became his junior year.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Celtics are in a different situation. No matter what position they draft, there will be a solid player ahead of the rookie. They can't avoid this.
Celtics are trying to win now. So a plug and play guy like Doncic works. They aren't trying to find a superstar.
Kingsfan23
All-Star
I’m sick of there being sources of negativity following this team. A number 2 pick not showing enough quality and having the leagues pundits/fans against the pick is negativity. I wish we could root for a team where these issues weren’t as continuous and it would be a better fan experience, for all. Maybe we will get that in a couple of years.
I don’t see the intentional pessimism, a lot of the posters who voice their critical frustration with Bagley are the same to praise the good of what’s happening
It was more to the point of style of play and what wins in today’s game. Wings are in demand so if you think Bagley/Doncic are close in potential (which there not) you take the wing.
Just look at the playoffs the only bigs that dominate are Embiid and Davis even Towns was easily taken out of games with Houston playing Tucker at center sometimes. Just to easy to defend post guys no add the fact that Bagley has 0 post moves and isn’t some physical specimen
Ozymandias
All-Star
I hate to post negative crap but people here seem to be having difficulty being objective about our bigs.
Look at the play 5 minutes in, i referenced this in real-time. this is why Harry Giles has no case to start over Willie (I feel dumb even having to explain this tbh, it's not even close...)
More versatility with our bigs than with Doncic? Doncic can offensively play 4 positions. Defensively he can play the 3 or 4. How is that less versatile than our bigs who can only play 2 positions a piece offensively and defensively?
Doncic was the perfect pick at #2 to drive this team into the future and instead we picked a guy who keeps us stuck in the stone age and is redundant with what we've already got. If you want to keep the ball in Fox's hands, that's fine. Doncic can shoot the ball just fine and he's a good rebounder for his size. If you want him to run the offense, he can do that as well. If you want him to make the correct read when there is good ball movement, he can do that as well. The kid is extremely versatile on offense and would have taken this team to the next level. Instead we are stuck with no above average play makers and a kid in Bagley who needs above average play makers to look like a capable basketball player.
Ozymandias
All-Star
Guys Marvin needs some time to work on his J and FT%. and like all bigs (sans Ayton) strengthen up for the rigors of battling NBA bigs (grown men). Harry needs to strengthen up similarly.
Ozymandias
All-Star
the worst part of this Doncic deluge, is if the Kings didn't take Marvin there was better options on the board than Luka. Jaren Jackson or Mo Bamba.
What's just as concerning is it seems as if he really thinks the slow pace is because of the players and not his offensive sets. The pace is slow because there's nothing going on in his sets that gets anyone open. You don't even have to run to the other end of the court to up the pace. You need to get shots early in the shot clock and there is almost nothing about this form of basketball that gets guys open, let alone gets guys open early in the shot clock.
It's really odd to me that he's one of the best in the game at drawing up plays out of a time out but he can't for the life of himself design an offensive system that gets guys open and places them in favorable positions on the court to score.
63royals
Bench
Thanks for clearing that up for us! It makes perfect sense now!
jcwkings
All-Star
Honestly there were way too many fouls being called to even get a rhythm of what was going on, but Skal and Harry didn't fare well guarding perimeter guys. TJ Warren in particular cooked both of them on a few occasions. Harry actually flipped my expectations of him, his offense was very good but his defense wasnt that great.
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