Kings' Defense

[ppine]

This is the elephant in the room. Offense is fun to talk about. It dominates the conversation. The Kings' can score. They are a good 3 shooting team. They get points in the paint. They get points on the break.

But they can't stop anyone. Alas the big men are the weakest link. Bagley and Giles are athletic without a doubt. But they are new at this. Willie is playing okay defense. Getting Koufus back will help.

Back door cuts last night got to be ridiculous. We gave up 50 % shooting from the arc. We are not very good at stopping teams in the paint. 149 points.
Time to take a step back and start working on team defense. When are you going to switch, when are you going to help and when are you going to fight through screens.?

On a hot shooting night for the Pels, we got outrebounded 52-39.

The Kings have all the potential you can ask for. The sooner they pick up the defense, the sooner they will start being in games at the end. 149 points should be giving Joerger nightmares.

 

[kingsboi]

new rules, new era, new players = lots of offense. The defensive players are handicapped right now and the refs tend to get whistle friendly on too many instances. With that said, the Kings give up too many second chance points if they so happen to get a stop so there will be plenty of games where the opposition scores 130+ on the Kings this season I'm afraid :\

 

[Dongoodboy]

It kind of shows how important the wing position is, you can see the best wings grab 8-9 rebound day in and day out. Until we get a competent wing player we will continue to be bullied

 

[dude12]

Scoring appears to be up around the league but yeah, we are giving up a lot.

If you looked at the 2 games:
Yogi was great against Utah but manhandled vs NO
Bjelica just isn’t very good defensively...I guess why Thibbs never played him a lot
Fox has been solid I think
Hield....works hard at it but gives up a lot
Bigs.....need to be better but also need to get a break from the refs. Maybe it’s me but I’m seeing us try to be physical or play aggressively and get called for fouls, but on the other side, it hasn’t been the same. I watched part of the NO game again and it’s not the same.

New rule of not impeding the offensive player from going where the6 want appears to not count for the Kings opposition. If you think it’s a biased take, go back and look at the tape. It’s kind of effed up.

 

[Kingster]

I'm very encouraged by the defensive effort of the first two games of the season. They just don't have the defensive fundamentals down yet. That's going to take some time. As long as they continue with the effort, in practice and on the court, they will continue to improve on defense. I think this team realizes they can be a good team if they improve on D, so there is a lot riding on it.

 

[Kingster]

Jackson has had six rebounds in 51 minutes of play in the first two games, or one rebound for every 8.5 minutes of play, which is putrid. In addition, the Kings have had to go small in the back court because of the injury to Bogs; Yogi can't be expected to rebound at a level with Bogs. Hield only had two rebounds against the Pelicans, which is poor for Hield. WCS has had one rebound every 5.2 minutes of his play in the first two games, very poor for a center. Giles has had five rebounds in 29 minutes of play, an average of one rebound every 5.8 minutes of play, also very poor for a PF or center.

Regarding WCS, he has put out the effort in his first two games, yet against quality opposition he has only gotten one rebound every 5.2 minutes of play. (Rebounding about one rebound every three minutes is a good rebounding center). The hope was that with all-out effort he could get at least a rebound every four minutes of play against quality competitors. It will be interesting to see if he can start to chip away at this problem over the next several games. If WCS is what he is when it comes to rebounding, the Kings have got to offset his poor rebounding from the other positions on the floor. Bagley can certainly provide some help in that regard, but Jackson is killing the Kings; the Kings need a SF that rebounds the ball.

 

[bajaden]

Jackson has had six rebounds in 51 minutes of play in the first two games, or one rebound for every 8.5 minutes of play, which is putrid. In addition, the Kings have had to go small in the back court because of the injury to Bogs; Yogi can't be expected to rebound at a level with Bogs. Hield only had two rebounds against the Pelicans, which is poor for Hield. WCS has had one rebound every 5.2 minutes of his play in the first two games, very poor for a center. Giles has had five rebounds in 29 minutes of play, an average of one rebound every 5.8 minutes of play, also very poor for a PF or center.

Regarding WCS, he has put out the effort in his first two games, yet against quality opposition he has only gotten one rebound every 5.2 minutes of play. (Rebounding about one rebound every three minutes is a good rebounding center). The hope was that with all-out effort he could get at least a rebound every four minutes of play against quality competitors. It will be interesting to see if he can start to chip away at this problem over the next several games. If WCS is what he is when it comes to rebounding, the Kings have got to offset his poor rebounding from the other positions on the floor. Bagley can certainly provide some help in that regard, but Jackson is killing the Kings; the Kings need a SF that rebounds the ball.

I watched Willie very carefully in last nights game. First, my rebound count for him was 9 rebounds and they only game him 7. There were two rebounds where he put the ball back up off a missed shots. One could have been missed because he was in a crowd, but the other one was obvious, so don't know how they missed it. He also had 3 deflections, where he batted the ball to a teammate. Twice AD went over his back to get a board and didn't get called. But my main point was that Willie was in rebounding position, and that was my main complaint last year, when he appeared to be a spectator.

There will be nights when you do everything right, and you won't get the rebound. If that happens to Cousins, it's considered an aberration, if it happens to Willie, it's considered, here we go again. And understandably so. Anyway, I don't want to nit pic the official scorer. If he got those boards they'll be given to him when they review the game. Point is, I see Willie making a much better effort so far in two games. His defense was good for the most part, but total team defense has a long way to go.

Also, I don't usually complain about the ref's, but in two games so far, it appears the ref's are looking at the whole team as a bunch of newbies, and calling the game accordingly. If you blew on AD last night it was a foul, but I watched Pelicans push off, go over the back or put hands in the back, and not get called. All I ask is for the ref's to call the game evenly.

 

[King Baller]

Pretty hard to play defense the way last nights game was called by the Refs. Pretty hard to rebound when the other team is making so many shots.

The Kings played well, but the Pelicans played better and 5 on 8.

 

[Livinthedream]

The refs took away the Kings aggressiveness on defense and they weren't able to adjust. Pels took advantage.

 

[Kingz19]

Defense will be bad this year but I don’t think it’s a problem that will linger with most of the foundation players like Fox, Bagley, Giles, Buddy. I don’t view any of them as individually poor in that regard. It’s more of a team problem that can be remedied with time and experience together.

We also have to realize good to great defense has a new(and much lower) standard. The Warriors have been considered the primo defensive team and I’ve always viewed them as pretty lousy defensively overall. Just their offensive runs make teams panic into taking 5 minute stretches of terrible shots just to keep up.

A great offense seems to be the best defense in today’s league

It’s going to take a slow paced, bruiser team that gets enough respect from officials to dictate pace to restore balance to this EA sports nonsense

 

[Kingster]

I watched Willie very carefully in last nights game. First, my rebound count for him was 9 rebounds and they only game him 7. There were two rebounds where he put the ball back up off a missed shots. One could have been missed because he was in a crowd, but the other one was obvious, so don't know how they missed it. He also had 3 deflections, where he batted the ball to a teammate. Twice AD went over his back to get a board and didn't get called. But my main point was that Willie was in rebounding position, and that was my main complaint last year, when he appeared to be a spectator.

There will be nights when you do everything right, and you won't get the rebound. If that happens to Cousins, it's considered an aberration, if it happens to Willie, it's considered, here we go again. And understandably so. Anyway, I don't want to nit pic the official scorer. If he got those boards they'll be given to him when they review the game. Point is, I see Willie making a much better effort so far in two games. His defense was good for the most part, but total team defense has a long way to go.

Also, I don't usually complain about the ref's, but in two games so far, it appears the ref's are looking at the whole team as a bunch of newbies, and calling the game accordingly. If you blew on AD last night it was a foul, but I watched Pelicans push off, go over the back or put hands in the back, and not get called. All I ask is for the ref's to call the game evenly.

Points taken. If WCS did in fact get 9 rebounds, he's only one less than Davis' 10 rebounds (assuming they didn't under-count Davis as well). I'll take that. (Against Utah, they had WCS with 7 rebounds and Gobert with 15 rebounds, a doubling of WCS's output). In the Pelicans' game Randle was the guy that killed the Kings in rebounding with 14. I've noticed that some of this rebounding problem with the Kings is simply not boxing out. One one play against the Pels the Kings had four players under the basket and one Pel strolled in untouched to nab an offensive rebound and 2 points.

As far as the refs are concerned, I wholeheartedly agree with you. The Kings' are not getting any benefit of the doubt. When in doubt, blow the whistle on the Kings. This is where the snow-ball effect of losing really gets you with a team like the Kings. When they start winning despite the refs is when they will finally start getting the calls. And when they get the calls, they'll be going to the playoffs.

What do you think of Giles so far? With his athleticism, length, and lateral speed, I'm really wondering if they shouldn't try have him guarding 3s. He looks more like a "Worthy" type of a player as opposed to a Weber (with the exception of his passing), and unless I'm missing something he's not going to bully a lot of people for rebounds at either the 4 or the 5. What do you think?

 

[SacTownKid]

You can't even focus on defense until you know what you are every night on offense, especially in todays league. At the moment the critical issue going forward appears to definitely be the difference in points the Kings will give up at the 3 point line. They tend to have in game segments where they get a 2, give up a 3, get a 2, give up a 3, if you do that 3-4 times a game those points add up. I've watched the first couple of days of NBA ball and I think they've finally put the final nail in the coffin of rugged defensive basketball. It's gone, put a fork in it. As a fan it kind of sucks because now there is almost no way to build a team that's different than anyone else. I miss the days of putting a balanced positional roster together, or being the opposite of another team. There was so much more strategy to it than screen into a 3, screen into a 3, screen into a 3. Utah is considered a rugged defensive team and look at the point totals they gave up to the Kings and the Warriors. Current basketball is like the 80's game, but with no allowable physicality.

 

[SacTownKid]

Defense will be bad this year but I don’t think it’s a problem that will linger with most of the foundation players like Fox, Bagley, Giles, Buddy. I don’t view any of them as individually poor in that regard. It’s more of a team problem that can be remedied with time and experience together.

We also have to realize good to great defense has a new(and much lower) standard. The Warriors have been considered the primo defensive team and I’ve always viewed them as pretty lousy defensively overall. Just their offensive runs make teams panic into taking 5 minute stretches of terrible shots just to keep up.

A great offense seems to be the best defense in today’s league

It’s going to take a slow paced, bruiser team that gets enough respect from officials to dictate pace to restore balance to this EA sports nonsense

I think at some point after so many drafts of big men being selected top overall they will eventually start tilting the rules to their strengths. Remember the NBA isn't a sport, it's entertainment based on selling merchandise.

The Warriors just basically cheat defensively. They sit players in the paint constantly and rarely get called for the 3 second violation. They turn the game into a long distance shooting contest and since getting Durant no team has been able to stack enough talent together to match it. The NBA game is starting to turn into a competitive all star game and they are pretty much the Western conference team from back in the day. It's a travesty and I fully expect the all around interest level in the game to dwindle unless something major happens..

 

[Livinthedream]

One could argue that the shift is already happening towards big men. Who were the major players in the first 2 games of the year? AD, Bagley, WCS, Mirotic, Gobert, Favors. Throw in a scoring guard for both teams and that's what drove the games.

The league always bends toward the talent. There was a lull in big men talent while the younger generation was developing the skillset to be able to guard multiple positions and shoot from distance as required by the increased use of the 3pt line. But there has always been a premium on big men. Kings just may have been ahead of the curve when they picked Bagley over the other guy.

 

[rosa u podne]

Scoring appears to be up around the league but yeah, we are giving up a lot.

If you looked at the 2 games:
Yogi was great against Utah but manhandled vs NO
Bjelica just isn’t very good defensively...I guess why Thibbs never played him a lot
Fox has been solid I think
Hield....works hard at it but gives up a lot
Bigs.....need to be better but also need to get a break from the refs. Maybe it’s me but I’m seeing us try to be physical or play aggressively and get called for fouls, but on the other side, it hasn’t been the same. I watched part of the NO game again and it’s not the same.

New rule of not impeding the offensive player from going where the6 want appears to not count for the Kings opposition. If you think it’s a biased take, go back and look at the tape. It’s kind of effed up.

Actually, Bjelica is very good on defense and rebounding. Tibs did not play him much because he preferes his old Bulls: Taj over Bjelly and Dieng, Tegue over Rubio and Jones, Rose over everyone.

It is brand new team with Bagley, Giles, Bjelly and Yogi, without Temple and without Bogie and Kosta for now. Also, they play faster, officiating went to extreme, they need time adjust and learn to play with each other. In addition to that, they are victim of star calls even against role players of well respected teams.

Effort is there, most of them are smart and hard workers, I have no doubt they will improve.

 

[ppine]

They have to improve. The Kings already have plenty of offense. They just can't stop anyone.

 

[Ozymandias]

3 things;

The Kings play small, this is what happens.. Kings got basically nothing from the SF spot vs the Pels... Their in a tough spot. They had no answers for Mirotic.

If we're being objective, Giles is the worst defender thru 2 games, he got mauled by Favors and then fouled out in 19 minutes vs the Pels. His foulrate in the preseason was outrageous (unsustainable for a decent chunk of mins) too.

Fox is a plus defender, anyone who tells ya otherwise is not watching very closely, he not only gets steals but he forces opposing ball-handlers out of bounds and into all sorts of violations. There was a play vs the Pelicans where Jrue Holiday had to do this crazy behind the back crossover just to even get it past him halfcourt.

 

[ESP47]

Joerger isn't wrong about the Kings lacking size and strength. Yogi and Mason are very small. If Yogi was an average point guard's size, he would be a fantastic defender but he's over matched playing the 2 out there. Giles and Bagley aren't quite strong enough yet. Fox has the wingspan and height to be a great defender but he's still lacking strength. Buddy is strong but his wingspan is short and he's not quick. Bogdan lacks quickness as well. JJ is as soft as a roll of Charmin toilet paper. Beli is big and strong but he's a lumbering type of player. WCS is quick but he lacks strength to be able to defend the bigger stronger centers.

Gabriel is one of the only players on the team that is equipped with size, strength and speed but unfortunately he lacks the basketball skills that pretty much every other player on the team has. So far the team has been pretty exciting to watch but they are just kind of a poor mismatch of players that seem like they can put the ball in the basket but they won't be able to stop opposing teams from putting it in the basket more than them due to their physical short comings.

That's a big reason why people have been complaining so much about the lack of wings on this team. Other teams have numerous players that are big, strong and fast and the Kings have basically no one at the moment.

 

[dude12]

Joerger isn't wrong about the Kings lacking size and strength. Yogi and Mason are very small. If Yogi was an average point guard's size, he would be a fantastic defender but he's over matched playing the 2 out there. Giles and Bagley aren't quite strong enough yet. Fox has the wingspan and height to be a great defender but he's still lacking strength. Buddy is strong but his wingspan is short and he's not quick. Bogdan lacks quickness as well. JJ is as soft as a roll of Charmin toilet paper. Beli is big and strong but he's a lumbering type of player. WCS is quick but he lacks strength to be able to defend the bigger stronger centers.

Gabriel is one of the only players on the team that is equipped with size, strength and speed but unfortunately he lacks the basketball skills that pretty much every other player on the team has. So far the team has been pretty exciting to watch but they are just kind of a poor mismatch of players that seem like they can put the ball in the basket but they won't be able to stop opposing teams from putting it in the basket more than them due to their physical short comings.

That's a big reason why people have been complaining so much about the lack of wings on this team. Other teams have numerous players that are big, strong and fast and the Kings have basically no one at the moment.

Can’t really dispute any of this. Shumpert is the 1 guy who can bring some physicality. I think he needs to play in matchups but wish he would use discretion in his shots.

There are still potential moves to be made with the expirings, it is just going to take the right fit or team who is willing to give us something we can use.

 

[SacTownKid]

Joerger isn't wrong about the Kings lacking size and strength. Yogi and Mason are very small. If Yogi was an average point guard's size, he would be a fantastic defender but he's over matched playing the 2 out there. Giles and Bagley aren't quite strong enough yet. Fox has the wingspan and height to be a great defender but he's still lacking strength. Buddy is strong but his wingspan is short and he's not quick. Bogdan lacks quickness as well. JJ is as soft as a roll of Charmin toilet paper. Beli is big and strong but he's a lumbering type of player. WCS is quick but he lacks strength to be able to defend the bigger stronger centers.

Gabriel is one of the only players on the team that is equipped with size, strength and speed but unfortunately he lacks the basketball skills that pretty much every other player on the team has. So far the team has been pretty exciting to watch but they are just kind of a poor mismatch of players that seem like they can put the ball in the basket but they won't be able to stop opposing teams from putting it in the basket more than them due to their physical short comings.

That's a big reason why people have been complaining so much about the lack of wings on this team. Other teams have numerous players that are big, strong and fast and the Kings have basically no one at the moment.

I still think Bogdan is that wing they are looking for. He's long and strong with the skill set of a point forward and while he's not quick for a combo G he should be OK checking bigger players. Also, Buddy has decent length. 6'9 1/4" wingspan and a 8'5" standing reach at the combine so that puts him safely above what you could consider short. He's longer than Troy Williams who the Kings just signed and he's considered a SF.

 

[Kingster]

I think Shumpert, Fox, Bogs, Yogi and Hield can be just fine defensively. Currently, it's not working as well because Yogi is matched against 2-guards due to the Bogs injury. But the real problem is that the team is getting killed in the interior defense. It almost made me wince watching the interior carnage against the Thunder. Can't wait to see Koufos for some strength at the center position , but even with Koufos the Kings eventually are going to need more physicallity up front.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I think Shumpert, Fox, Bogs, Yogi and Hield can be just fine defensively. Currently, it's not working as well because Yogi is matched against 2-guards due to the Bogs injury. But the real problem is that the team is getting killed in the interior defense. It almost made me wince watching the interior carnage against the Thunder. Can't wait to see Koufos for some strength at the center position , but even with Koufos the Kings eventually are going to need more physicallity up front.

Yes, indeed. It’s bad, layup line..

WCS still lacks the paint physicality of a C on the boards/rim for as well as he’s playing offensively
Bagley/Giles have not been strong on team defense

What are you going to do with that though? Whose minutes will Kosta take?

 

[Kingster]

Yes, indeed. It’s bad, layup line..

WCS still lacks the paint physicality of a C on the boards/rim for as well as he’s playing offensively
Bagley/Giles have not been strong on team defense

What are you going to do with that though? Whose minutes will Kosta take?

I think Koufos could easily have played 10-14 minutes in the Thunder game. Both WCS and Giles should have fewer minutes in a game like this because both were getting killed by the physicallity up front.

 

[ppine]

These are good questions. The guards are playing at least average defense most of the time and have had some really good streches. Skal and Willie I do not have much confidence in underneath. They are slow to rotate from the weak side and often swat at opposing players instead of moving their feet. They should be taking charges once in awhile. We used to call it wearing a tuxedo. Koufus can get his body on people. Giles and Bagley both have the potential to be really good defensive players but they are just getting started. Give me some Koufus.

The next thing is team defense. The Kings need how to figure how to stop a fast break and how to defend the paint better. They actually extended to the 3 point line well in the 4th quarter against the Wizards. It is how they won that game.

 

[ppine]

Big improvements. Shumpert and Bjelica have made a big difference. Willie is running the floor at both ends. The Fox and Buddy are working at the defensive end. Koufus is knocking the rust off. Bagley is a better defender than we thought. Mason is working hard.

I hope Shumpert stays in the lineup against most teams.

 

[ppine]

Joerger obviously figured out that giving up 149 points to a team like the Pels was never going to work.
I am betting that there have been many practices focused on defense. The team is playing much better.
The fast pace is disruptive for some teams. Shumpert, Williams and Bjelica are good defenders. Hield and Fox have improved a lot. Everyone has improved their team defense. I think it has a lot to do with the recent Ws.

 

[VF21]

Joerger obviously figured out that giving up 149 points to a team like the Pels was never going to work.
I am betting that there have been many practices focused on defense. The team is playing much better.
The fast pace is disruptive for some teams. Shumpert, Williams and Bjelica are good defenders. Hield and Fox have improved a lot. Everyone has improved their team defense. I think it has a lot to do with the recent Ws.

Joerger knew this all along. He just needed to get the players to realize it.

 

[Hoovtrain]

I think they are starting to show some good stuff on the defensive end....staying in front of guys, help defense, rim protection, swarming and stripping (that’s what she said) and just overall effort

 

[ESP47]

Defense is slowly getting better. Went from one of the worst defenses to middle of the pack on this road trip.

 

[Larry89]

I feel like our defensive stats/defense was terrible earlier because we were giving an albatross of minutes to Justin Jackson and unfortunately Harry. I think those two have really skewed the stats.

Fox/Willie/Buddy/Bjelica have all played great individual and help defense and hustled. Unfortunately JJ cannot stay in front of anyone, it should get better with some practice or shumpert/troy playing more.