[Game] Kings at Hawks, 1/26/2022, 7:30pm ET/4:30pm PT

[pdxKingsFan]

I've completely checked out my only hope is this last stretch will be what it takes Vivek to understand we would not benefit from a 10 seed. Secure our best pick, make moves that are 2-3 year future moves rather than win now moves, and let's go.

Otherwise it's going to be a 20+ year playoff drought.

 

[sactowndog]

Oh wow! God, we're somehow worse than ever this season, it's so bizarre lmao i laugh to keep from sobbing.

Yep but Monte is awesome. Somehow he has managed to make a bad team worse.

 

[24 rick barry]

I don't think it's minutes though, I believe it's starts, and he's starting so that doesn't make much sense

starts or minutes

 

[miltonap]

Got it, thanks

 

[captain bill]

I've completely checked out my only hope is this last stretch will be what it takes Vivek to understand we would not benefit from a 10 seed. Secure our best pick, make moves that are 2-3 year future moves rather than win now moves, and let's go.

Otherwise it's going to be a 20+ year playoff drought.

for the same reasons this is the most invested I’ve been in the nba this late in the season since boogie got traded

 

[hrdboild]

Any first round pick selected 1-14 in the Draft who fails to meet the “starter criteria” during his prior season or fails to average the “starter criteria” over his prior two seasons will receive the lesser of (x) the player’s fourth year salary increased by the percentage called for in the player’s applicable Rookie Salary Scale, or (y) the same Qualifying Offer amount as the 15th pick in the Draft (for purposes of such Qualifying Offer amount, the fourth year salary of the 15th player will be deemed to equal 120% of the rookie scale amount applicable to the 15th player). The “starter criteria” for a season are: (i) starting 41 or more Regular Season games, and (ii) 2,000 or more minutes of playing time in a Regular Season.

I think you're onto something here. I also think it's a trash move by a trash organization.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I think you're onto something here. I also think it's a trash move by a trash organization.

As I pointed out a month ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/thr...-730pm-pt-1030pm-et.82871/page-2#post-1613271

Bagley had to get 33 starts in the last 47 games to meet starter criteria. Over that time he has started 14 of 15 games (he was injured for one game). That means that in the last 32 games of the season, Bagley has to get 19 starts to reach starter criteria. Given that he's now starting every game, he seems quite likely to reach the criteria.

 

[The_Jamal]

TRADE THE BUM

I'm here for the "Tyrese sucks" slander 3 years early.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

for the same reasons this is the most invested I’ve been in the nba this late in the season since boogie got traded

Arizona basketball was ranked #2 until last night's disaster @ UCLA so I am enjoying the NCAAs right now in the NBA's place.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think you're onto something here. I also think it's a trash move by a trash organization.

There is literally no benefit to picking up the QO vs trading him now or negotiating a multiyear deal to bring him back. Sure he'd have to play a 5th year on a discount but then he's unrestricted and we'd get nothing and it doesn't seem likely this would benefit a potential trade partner as I believe it would make re-signing him a nightmare.

 

[sactowndog]

As I pointed out a month ago: https://community.kingsfans.com/thr...-730pm-pt-1030pm-et.82871/page-2#post-1613271

Bagley had to get 33 starts in the last 47 games to meet starter criteria. Over that time he has started 14 of 15 games (he was injured for one game). That means that in the last 32 games of the season, Bagley has to get 19 starts to reach starter criteria. Given that he's now starting every game, he seems quite likely to reach the criteria.

Right but the text is starts and minutes. Does he get both?

 

[sactowndog]

There is literally no benefit to picking up the QO vs trading him now or negotiating a multiyear deal to bring him back. Sure he'd have to play a 5th year on a discount but then he's unrestricted and we'd get nothing and it doesn't seem likely this would benefit a potential trade partner as I believe it would make re-signing him a nightmare.

It makes it easier to sign him for a 2-3 year reasonable amount because his one year guarantee is less.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It makes it easier to sign him for a 2-3 year reasonable amount because his one year guarantee is less.

Not sure about that since odds are he's not even going to negotiate with us unless firing Luke changed everything.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Right but the text is starts and minutes. Does he get both?

The starter criteria is based on minutes OR starts. From the CBA (XI.1.c.ii.A) defining starter criteria:

...during the third and fourth Seasons of his Rookie Scale Contract, either started an average of forty-one (41) or more Regular Season games per Season or averaged two thousand (2,000) or more minutes of playing time per Regular Season

(Emphasis actually in the original)

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I thought it was that when this came up earlier this and thing was total news to me.

 

[hrdboild]

The starter criteria is based on minutes OR starts. From the CBA (XI.1.c.ii.A) defining starter criteria:



(Emphasis actually in the original)

The paragraph I quoted says starts and minutes. I just took for granted that the information quoted was accurate.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

The paragraph I quoted says starts and minutes. I just took for granted that the information quoted was accurate.

Yeah, I don't know where sactowndog got that info.

 

[mac]

I'm here for the "Tyrese sucks" slander 3 years early.

All boils down to 1. What we pay him and 2. How the franchise positions him.

For 1, more than likely he's gonna be maxed.
For 2, let's see if they're dumb enough to make it sound as if Tyrese is the franchise cornerstone #1 guy and all we need are a few random vet players to make us a competitive playoff team.

That's what we did with Fox, and as a result we're in the current situation with no all stars and still fighting desperately to be a #10 seed.

Tyrese as a glue guy, at best #2-3 scoring option is superb. Tyrese being treated as a superstar #1 guy without any accolades and getting paid max money is not.

 

[sactowndog]

Not sure about that since odds are he's not even going to negotiate with us unless firing Luke changed everything.

We have his restricted rights. We can offer a 3 year reduced dollar amount that would be way more than the 1 year offer. Given his injury history he would be crazy not to take it.

I actually like the improvement I have seen from him working with Doug. He is getting much better as a wing defender.

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah, I don't know where sactowndog got that info.

From the nba.com. CBA on qualifying offers

Here is the link….

https://cdn.nba.com/manage/2021/03/2018-19-CBA.pdf

I think the confusion stems from the criteria changes based upon where you are drafted. It appears Bagley needs to meet both but people may have a different interpretation or perhaps my data is out of date.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

From the nba.com. CBA on qualifying offers

Here is the link….

https://cdn.nba.com/manage/2021/03/2018-19-CBA.pdf

I think the confusion stems from the criteria changes based upon where you are drafted. It appears Bagley needs to meet both but people may have a different interpretation or perhaps my data is out of date.

The actual CBA (https://cosmic-s3.imgix.net/3c7a0a5...-NBA-NBPA-Collective-Bargaining-Agreement.pdf) has a similar ambiguity. It explicitly defines the starter criteria with an "or" for picks 10 and later, and then for picks 14 and earlier, merely references starter criteria. Let's look at the consequences and see if we can work this out.

Rule #1) 10th pick or later - if a player meets either criterion, he gets a QO of the same size as the 9th pick would get. We know this is either, the text is explicit.

Rule #2) 14th pick or earlier - if a player "does not meet the criteria" (ambiguous), he gets a QO of the same size as the 15th pick would get. But is this either criterion, or both criteria?

Now, let's assume a player is picked 11th. He meets the starts criterion but does not meet the minutes criterion. By rule #1, gets a QO of the size of the 9th pick's. What about by rule #2? If rule #2 is also either, then he meets the criteria, and rule #2 does not apply. His QO is 9th pick. But if rule #2 is both, then he does not meet the criterion. Rule #1 applies (9th pick), and rule #2 also applies (15th pick), and they are in conflict. Therefore, rule #2 is not a both rule, it is an either rule just like rule #1.

 

[chief bromden]

I know this isn't a new observation, but is anyone else just completely confused as to what is the catalyst behind the way that Holmes has looked on the floor since his return?

Luke was a huge reason that he ascended over the past two seasons, and his injury coincided with Luke's firing... So is it the coaching change, the injury affecting his momentum, adjusting to wearing glasses, a combination thereof? He just doesn't look into it out there ... I can't blame him, I'm not into it as much as a fan so maybe I can look for the answer within, but just wanted to hear what others are seeing

 

[sactowndog]

For any First Round Pick finishing his Rookie Scale Contract who was not selected with one of the first nine (9) picks in the Draft and who, (1) during the third and fourth Seasons of his Rookie Scale Contract, either started an average of forty-one (41) or more Regular Season games per Season or averaged two thousand (2,000) or more minutes of playing time per Regular Season, or (2) in the fourth Season of his Rookie Scale Contract either started forty-one (41) or more Regular Season
games or played two thousand (2,000) or more minutes (collectively, the “Starter Criteria”), the Qualifying Offer shall instead contain Base Compensation (with no bonuses of any kind) equal to the amount of the Qualifying Offer applicable to the ninth player selected in the first round of the Draft (the “ninth player”) as called for by the Rookie Salary Scale applicable to the First Round Pick’s Rookie Scale Contract. For purposes of calculating such Qualifying Offer amount, the Fourth Year Salary of the ninth player shall be deemed to equal one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Rookie Scale Amount applicable to the ninth player.

(B) For any First Round Pick finishing his Rookie Scale Contract who was selected with one of the first through fourteenth picks in the Draft and who failed to meet the Starter Criteria, the player’s Qualifying Offer shall contain the lesser of: (x) the Salary (excluding Incentive Compensation), Likely Bonuses, and Unlikely Bonuses, respectively, provided in the Fourth Year Salary increased by the percentage called for in the Rookie Salary Scale applicable to the First Round Pick’s Rookie Scale Contract; or (y) Base Compensation (with no bonuses of any kind) equal to the amount of the Qualifying Offer applicable to the fifteenth player selected in the first round of the Draft (the “fifteenth player”) as called for by the Rookie Salary Scale applicable to the First Round Pick’s Rookie Scale Contract. For purposes of calculating such Qualifying Offer amount, the Fourth Year Salary of the fifteenth player shall be deemed to equal one hundred twenty percent (120%) of the Rookie Scale Amount applicable to the fifteenth player.

@Capt. Factorial yes it is ambiguous but I think the key point in paragraph one is the phrase (collectively the starter criteria) makes it an and in the case of Bagley. I have no idea what it would be for Haliburton.

 

[kb02]

I know this isn't a new observation, but is anyone else just completely confused as to what is the catalyst behind the way that Holmes has looked on the floor since his return?

Luke was a huge reason that he ascended over the past two seasons, and his injury coincided with Luke's firing... So is it the coaching change, the injury affecting his momentum, adjusting to wearing glasses, a combination thereof? He just doesn't look into it out there ... I can't blame him, I'm not into it as much as a fan so maybe I can look for the answer within, but just wanted to hear what others are seeing

Teams are taking away that pick and roll that he runs with Hali. Surprised opponents haven’t done that sooner since Orlando did the sane thing the year before. It is one of the reasons why I’ve felt for some time that his game is best suited for a bench role. Once teams take away that area of the court, Holmes is effectively a garbage man, going after offensive boards from the angles. His lack of shooting beyond his push shot and passing really depresses his offensive value.

On defense, he’s operating as he was, but is now mostly playing next to Bagley. Both Bagley and Holmes are more effective as help side bigs. Playing together they often find each other scrambling and losing boards to bigger front lines and providing zero interior deterrence, because both are undersized.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

We have his restricted rights. We can offer a 3 year reduced dollar amount that would be way more than the 1 year offer. Given his injury history he would be crazy not to take it.

I actually like the improvement I have seen from him working with Doug. He is getting much better as a wing defender.

I know we have his rights and I'd like to keep him if he takes a 2-3 year deal on a paycut.

But given the damage done it seems like he'd go out and negotiate a deal that we either match, work out a deal, or let him walk. Unless something dramatically changed and he's happy now with his playing time I don't see his agent and Monte working on the deal vs. hatching their exit plan to greener pastures, real or perceived.

With all that in mind I don't think the QO really enters the equation because there is no way in hell he'd get a raise and I think he's smart enough to get a 2-3 year deal from another team with a higher payout than sign the QO deal to get UFA but be tied to one more year of basketball hell.

 

[Livinthedream]

I know this isn't a new observation, but is anyone else just completely confused as to what is the catalyst behind the way that Holmes has looked on the floor since his return?

Luke was a huge reason that he ascended over the past two seasons, and his injury coincided with Luke's firing... So is it the coaching change, the injury affecting his momentum, adjusting to wearing glasses, a combination thereof? He just doesn't look into it out there ... I can't blame him, I'm not into it as much as a fan so maybe I can look for the answer within, but just wanted to hear what others are seeing

When Luke was here, the offense was centered around Fox and Holmes.

With Luke leaving and Holmes being out so much this season, the offensive focus has changed and Holmes is left to fend for himself.

 

[sactowndog]

I know we have his rights and I'd like to keep him if he takes a 2-3 year deal on a paycut.

But given the damage done it seems like he'd go out and negotiate a deal that we either match, work out a deal, or let him walk. Unless something dramatically changed and he's happy now with his playing time I don't see his agent and Monte working on the deal vs. hatching their exit plan to greener pastures, real or perceived.

With all that in mind I don't think the QO really enters the equation because there is no way in hell he'd get a raise and I think he's smart enough to get a 2-3 year deal from another team with a higher payout than sign the QO deal to get UFA but be tied to one more year of basketball hell.

even if he gets a 2-3 year deal from another team we could match and keep him.

the only way he can for sure leave is take the qualifying offer, play one year and then he becomes an unrestricted free agent, The Key will be the delta between that 1 year Qualifying offer and a smaller per year 3 year deal on if such a plan is feasible for him.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

even if he gets a 2-3 year deal from another team we could match and keep him.

the only way he can for sure leave is take the qualifying offer, play one year and then he becomes an unrestricted free agent, The Key will be the delta between that 1 year Qualifying offer and a smaller per year 3 year deal on if such a plan is feasible for him.

Yes I get all that - I just don't think the QO is going to be in play in any way that the team would benefit from stifling his playing time or starts. All it would do is further the divide between FO and player/representation.

We're dumb but I don't believe we're that dumb + spiteful.

 

[SacTownKid]

When Luke was here, the offense was centered around Fox and Holmes.

With Luke leaving and Holmes being out so much this season, the offensive focus has changed and Holmes is left to fend for himself.

Only last year. This year Walton started to use Fox as a semi-SG again. Cost him his job and Fox's value for at least the short term. Thanks Luke. We also saw him use the short middle pick and roll that got Holmes to his push shot less and less.

 

[ppine]

The kings obvious failure is on the defensive end and has been for a decade.
But people still want to talk about the offensive problems.
The Emperor has no clothes, but the FO and the fans can't seem to see it.