KING DEMAR

[KF8]

With derozan kings will no longer have to live and die by the 3 as much. Finally someone who could get to the rim and draw some fouls on a consistent basis aside from fox. Defensively there could be some concern though. Hopefully more moves to come to address this.

 

[SacTownKid]

Would be nice to get a truer "4" in the defensive mold but it seems like we'll have enough to play on both the main and second units. Plus give different looks to different teams (if Brown is willing, which to be honest, deviation from the way isn't his strong suit).

With how much Brown ran switch and put guys like Keegan at the point of attack, what is a position? haha. As I said prior, DDR actually played a lot of PF essentially with the Bulls. Brown loves guard lineups, and he saw great success when he was with the Warriors. If he's going to do it, at least now he finally has the tools I guess.

 

[SacTownKid]

With derozan kings will no longer have to live and die by the 3 as much. Finally someone who could get to the rim and draw some fouls on a consistent basis aside from fox. Defensively there could be some concern though. Hopefully more moves to come to address this.

I think the same can be said from day 1 with Carter. The Kings got a lot more physical on the offensive end in the draft and today.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Keegan averaged about 15ppg this past season... the same guy who half the fanbase thinks can become Paul George 2.0. Even Malik only averaged a little bit over 15ppg, and he's our 2nd most dynamic scorer.

Not seeing any type of possibility for Keon to jump from 5.4ppg to the 14ppg reign. I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment when it comes to Keon if they expect him to be anything other than a solid role player next year.

More than a solid role player would be what? I don't think anyone is expecting whatever that is.

I think some of us think it's possible that he quickly becomes a guy who can compete like an All Defensive player, who can shoot

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1809776078451290172

Thanks Vivek!

 

[The_Jamal]

I mean, DDR in means lower PPG across the board. Just the way adding a high USG player works.

But I also think he's a guy that's very willing to play in a team system and be a key part of our "share the rock" playstyle. He's been too good of a passer his whole career not to be.

In terms of Keon's PPG... who cares? If he continues his elite shooting and the defense holds up from a season ago, he'll be on the short-list for an all-defensive team award, then it really doesn't matter if he's 8 PPG or 14 PPG. We have the offense to make up for a "lackluster" scorer. We don't have the defender like Keon.

 

[captain bill]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1809781415522758713

Good vibes. Really looking forward to this next season after months of dread

 

[kingsboi]

I think more than that it's Monte saw what was going on, too much pressure was on Fox to create. The Kings now have two players that historically hit around or above that 80-85th percentile in isolation. Barnes was actually better than both, he just refused to do it. Both of these guys have recent history of not only doing it, but putting up All Star level production when doing it. We'll see what the defense looks like and spacing. That's the issue on paper here. Still, better than destroying the future for a max ender contract player. That's what deadlines are for.

no doubt Fox needed an additional player that can take the scoring burden off of him. One would hope that Fox does not revert back to his 2023-2024 season of chucking 10 plus three's because he has DeMar working in the painted area, which so happens to be occupied by Sabonis too who refuses to shoot on most nights. It was a move that had to be made though and with minimal assets going out, it's worth a try. We don't know how long Monte has to build this squad

 

[sactowndog]

I was responding to Keon being left off as a 14-16ppg scoring distributor. I don't think he cracks more than 10ppg next year. He's a limited scorer that lacks aggression. Even in his best month (April), he barely averaged 10.5ppg with an injured Monk.

I see him as our starting 3&D SG who doesn't see much run in the 4th quarter unless we need his defense.

I think Keon did an adequate enough job as a 3&D role player, but it would be nice if we could upgrade the starting SG spot. He's probably a bottom 5 starting SG in the NBA if we're being honest. But the starting SG position is the least of our concerns right now. As I said, I think he did an adequate enough job.

I think Keon is way better than a bottom 5 shooting guard in this league. Between his defense a 3 point shooting he will be one of the better 2 way players on the team.

 

[sactowndog]

Keegan averaged about 15ppg this past season... the same guy who half the fanbase thinks can become Paul George 2.0. Even Malik only averaged a little bit over 15ppg, and he's our 2nd most dynamic scorer.

Not seeing any type of possibility for Keon to jump from 5.4ppg to the 14ppg reign. I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment when it comes to Keon if they expect him to be anything other than a solid role player next year.

14 ppg is 5 3 point shots a game. Well within his ability range.

 

[MizzouKing]

Barnes is a good pickup for San Antonio. He's definitely a "spur"

Agreed, HB is a great fit for the Spurs organization. It’s a great landing place for him!

 

[Rain man]

With DDR taking over the 3 spot in the starting lineup, I think you absolutely HAVE to start Keon at the 2. Starting Monk alongside DDR and Fox makes no sense - they are all high usage scorers, and none of them are knockdown outside shooters. Starting Fox-DDR-Sabonis, and surrounding them with Keegan and Keon makes so much more sense. Allow Keegan and Keon to focus on the two most difficult defensive assignments and set a strong defensive intensity from the tipoff, let Keegan take a bit more of a backseat offensively, and add a classic 3/D guy like Keon to take a low usage role in the starting lineup. Mike is going to need to talk to Monk and convince him that his best place continues to be on the bench unit, where he can be the high usage guy we know and love.

If I were trying to optimize the current roster, I would probably do something like:

Fox (32)/Carter (12)/Monk (4)
Ellis (20)/Monk (24)/Carter (4)
DDR (28)/Huerter (16)/Ellis (4)
Keegan (32)/ Lyles (12)/DDR (4)
Sabonis (32)/Len (10)/ Lyles (6)

That gives you:

Fox, Sabonis, DDR, Keegan- 32 minutes
Monk- 28
Ellis- 24
Lyles- 18
Huerter, Carter- 16
Len - 10

That gives you some room for your traditional lineups, while also giving you space to tinker with a few different things: (Fox-Carter-Ellis-Keegan); some Monk point guard minutes and also a few DDR minutes at the 4 (like a Monk-Ellis-Huerter-DDR lineup). You would still get 10 or so minutes of Len (which seems to be Mike's limit), while also allowing for some small ball Lyles lineups. If you consolidate from 10 to 9 men, you are probably squeezing out Huerter or Len.

More ideally, you try to trade Huerter for a bench 3/4. The names that have been discussed on this board make a lot of sense: DFS, Cam Johnson, Grant Williams, Thuybulle. I suppose you could even look at Kuzma. All of the guys could work (salary-wise) in a package for either Huerter or Huerter and McDaniels, except Thuybulle. For Thuybulle you would have to add in some salary coming back (Kris Murray would fit perfectly ) But if you got one of these guys, you could easily give them the 16 minutes allocated to Huerter, and then skim a few minutes off Len and Lyles to make this a 20-24 minute per game reserve role. Something like:

Fox, Sabonis, DDR, Keegan- 32 minutes
Monk- 28
Ellis and new bench wing (DFS, Cam, Williams, Thuybulle)- 24
Lyles, Carter- 14
Len - 8

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

When one of my teams is able to acquire an all-star level talent without having to sacrifice a first round draft pick, that acquisition automatically defaults to a VICTORY in my book.

Can't wait to see what else, if anything at all, Monte has up his sleeves before we tip off the 2024-2025 campaign...

LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

Are you excited about anything ever?

Or just can't bring yourself to say "Good deal Monte!"

There's always one in a crowd of many...

 

[hrdboild]

Makes more sense. Thanks!

I’m honestly not in love with the move…at least not yet. I’d like it more if we followed it up for a 3&D starting PF allowing DeRozan to come off the bench, but I thought I saw that there are incentives in DeRozan’s contract if he makes an all star team. That very likely means he’s not going to accept that type of role on our team and is going to expect/demand to start. It’s going to be really interesting to see how a Fox-DeRozan-Sabonis lineup works offensively. Two of those three “stars” aren’t good floor spacers and two of those three “stars” aren’t defenders.

The 2031 pick swap is not ideal but it is a “pick swap” and not a “pick” so there’s that. However, even with sending out this pick swap, McNair has set himself up to be in a position where he can trade 4 1sts next offseason (assuming our 2025 pick conveys to ATL).

We’ll have to see how it plays out on the court but the cost to take this swing is relatively low compared to trading for someone like Markkanen, Ingram, etc. so we’re not “stuck” or “all in.” If it doesn’t work out, we have options.

Surely you can take the quotes off of "stars" -- all three of these guys have made at least one All NBA team.

 

[Jdbraver137]

I was responding to Keon being left off as a 14-16ppg scoring distributor. I don't think he cracks more than 10ppg next year. He's a limited scorer that lacks aggression. Even in his best month (April), he barely averaged 10.5ppg with an injured Monk.

I see him as our starting 3&D SG who doesn't see much run in the 4th quarter unless we need his defense.

I think Keon did an adequate enough job as a 3&D role player, but it would be nice if we could upgrade the starting SG spot. He's probably a bottom 5 starting SG in the NBA if we're being honest. But the starting SG position is the least of our concerns right now. As I said, I think he did an adequate enough job.

He is definetly not bottom 5 on defense. Even today he showed why he is head a shoulders better than most starting SGs. He is fast, long, and can create turnovers. That’s like saying Doug Christie was a bottom 5 SG. You realize you don’t have to put 15 ppg in impact winning. If you saw Christie play and tell me he didn’t win games then there is something wrong with your perception.

 

[est.1999]

I’m excited to see the lineups we use to close out games. We now have options to throw out a lineup to get a bucket when it matters and I think we have enough defense to put out Keon and Devin if we need a stop!

 

[hrdboild]

Even if DeRozan has a dropoff in production, he is miles ahead of what Barnes provides. Keegan can focus on defense and sniping threes, and who better to learn creating offense from.

This is it exactly. The potential for DeMar's presence on the team to greatly help Keegan's development is what tipped the scales for me from "I'm interested" to "we need to make this happen!". In the short-term Keegan gets to return to a 3-and-D role that he's ideally suited for and focus on improving his efficiency by only taking good shots. And in the long-term he's now teammates with the best guy in the league to learn from as he looks to fill out the mid-range and foul drawing aspects of being a leading scorer.

We already saw what a whole off-season of dueling De'Aaron could do for Keegan's defense. He's a quick learner and he wants to get better. Developing Keegan into a two-way star still looks like our best path to a championship with this roster so the mentorship aspect of getting DeRozan here cannot be overstated.

 

[hrdboild]

Keegan averaged about 15ppg this past season... the same guy who half the fanbase thinks can become Paul George 2.0. Even Malik only averaged a little bit over 15ppg, and he's our 2nd most dynamic scorer. ...

The same Paul George who averaged 12 ppg in his second season?

 

[NewArena]

Gone are the days where teams can just stick all their best defenders on Fox and give the Kings hell. We’re gonna give teams absolute FITS

 

[KingsFanSince85]

DDR has more all star appearances than fox and sabonis combined. He has 2 more appearances than cousins and 1 more than Webber.and the same amount as Mitch Richmond. Those are arguably the top 5 best players in the Sacramento era.

So what? That’s a popularity award, not really an indicator of greatness.

Don’t get me wrong, DDR is an all-star caliber talent but citing and comparing all-star appearances is beyond meaningless. For example, De’Aaron has been an all-star level talent for many years but got overlooked and squeezed out most the time due to a popularity vote. Same applies to all the names you mentioned, they were worthy more times than they they appeared.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

It's just so amazing that a really good player signed with the Kings as a free agent... That never happens .. !

You mean, except for when Vlade did it. And Bobby Jackson. And Brad Miller. And Chris Webber. And Malik Monk, twice now.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Charting the efficiency and Per36 volume of wings who play until they're at least 37. In red is DDR.







DDR is highly effective for an old guy, but historical precedent is that going from 35-36 is pretty brutal for most players

 

[KingsFanSince85]

With DDR taking over the 3 spot in the starting lineup, I think you absolutely HAVE to start Keon at the 2. Starting Monk alongside DDR and Fox makes no sense - they are all high usage scorers, and none of them are knockdown outside shooters.

Monk’s not a knockdown shooter? I realize his % hasn’t been elite with the KINGS, but being a knockdown shooter is something Monk has been known for since his days at Kentucky. The kid is a very good deep shooter. Clutch too.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Charting the efficiency and volume of wings who play until they're at least 37. In red is DDR.

DDR is highly effective for an old guy, but historical precedent is that going from 35-36 is pretty brutal for most players

We’re also living in a new, different era where professional athletes are maintaining a high level of productivity for longer periods of time across a multitude of sports.

In tennis, the big 3 of Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic were still dominating into their mid-to-late 30’s in a sport where historically 30 was retirement age. Tom Brady played in the NFL until age 45. LeBron James is still playing at a high level in the NBA at nearly 40 years old.

They represent a few of the high profile examples, but are far from the only ones doing it.

Historical precedent isn’t applying so much to athletes of the new millennium.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

We’re also living in a new, different era where professional athletes are maintaining a high level of productivity for longer periods of time across a multitude of sports.

In tennis, the big 3 of Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic were still dominating into their mid-to-late 30’s in a sport where historically 30 was retirement age. Tom Brady played in the NFL until age 45. LeBron James is still playing at a high level in the NBA at nearly 40 years old.

They represent a few of the high profile examples, but are far from the only ones doing it.

Historical precedent isn’t applying so much to athletes of the new millennium.

Ok, here's the trend for players who made it to 37 after 2003. (DDR added in red, Lebron in Cyan)





It would be nice if DDR ages like LeBron James!
Even in the modern era, 35-36 is the final inflection point for most NBA wings.

 

[chief bromden]

You mean, except for when Vlade did it. And Bobby Jackson. And Brad Miller. And Chris Webber. And Malik Monk, twice now.

Webber was acquired via trade, same with Brad Miller. Malik Monk, sure, but was he considered as a really good player at the time? He's definitely top 5 free agent signing at this point though. Definitely Vlade and Bobby Jack ---- 25 years ago! Even John Salmons was almost 20 years ago. In the past decade it's been players like Rondo, George Hill, Old Vince Carter, etc. DeRozan signing here is a big deal. I know I said 'never,' but I guess if we are picking nits, then its more accurate to say 'very rarely' so you got me there.

 

[twslam07]

Damar ain’t coming off the bench, man, what the hell kinda take is that?

There are two legitimate concerns…

1. How does a Fox, DeRozan, and Sabonis offense work considering the underwhelming floor spacing that core provides for each other?
2. How are we going to fare against teams with size & length considering a starting frontcourt of DeRozan, Murray, and Sabonis is below average in that department?

If we find a 3&D PF who is bigger and longer than Murray and insert him into the starting lineup over DeRozan that addresses #1 (as the new starter would be a good floor spacer for Fox/Sabonis) and addresses #2 (as Murray has great size/length at SF and the new starter would give us more size/length).

Let’s also keep in mind that DeRozan coming off the bench doesn’t mean that I’d lessen his minutes. I’d still put him in a 32+ mpg super-sub role. The idea for him to come off the bench is really just about matchups and maximizing the fit & synergy of our roster since there are significant questions on how that’s going to work.

You could obviously still start him and sub him after the first 5-6 min (similar to what we did with Fox this year) to offset him as much as possible with Fox/Sabonis and to give us more size/length at the PF spot, but I’d prefer to start with that better offensive fit and more defense right out of the gate to set the tone.

Don’t get me wrong. I like DeRozan and think he’s a talent upgrade, and I have mentioned that I think it’s a low risk swing by Monte that still gives us flexibility to make adjustments down the road if it doesn’t work out. However, fit has an important role when determining how far your team can go.

And perhaps having DeRozan come off the bench out of the gate may not be the best approach in an effort to keep DeRozan happy. However, perhaps it’s something that he “graduates” to later in the season, the following season, etc. as he comes to realization that it may be best for the team to play that role. That’s essentially what Westbrook did in LAC. They had him starting originally, and he made the decision to come off the bench as he had enough self awareness to recognize the team would be better with him off the bench. Perhaps we’d need DeRozan to arrive at a similar conclusion himself over time vs. forcing him into that role immediately.

 

[ick300]

Kings are starting to look very hot for the next season
Really hope brown will change his let’s go for D attitude and just build on team that will simply outscore the opponents…
With all Domas , Fox , Murray , monk , DDR more then capable to score 25plus I all about time to return for the successful best offence in the league from the last but one season …
We will be really nice team to watch )

 

[midtowner]

I think the spacing argument is overblown.

1 - Stat that I heard yesterday - DeDozan shot 39% from the corner three. If he is going from the corner, to the dunkers spot, and then to the elbow for late shot clock iso - that would provide plenty of spacing and movement for Sabonis to initiate offense at the opposite elbow.

2 - Fox’s 3 point shot might improve again. And just leaving him open isn’t a great strategy because it also opens up driving opportunities.

3 - Sabonis needs to shoot more 3’s anyway.

4 - Keon and Murray are lights out 3pt shooters and have potential as movement shooters (I believe Murray will return to form).

5 - DeRozan is a much better passer/playmakers than Barnes - so the Kings offense will be more dynamic.

I agree that on defense, it would be nice to have a rangy 4 that could provide some rim protection. But you can’t have everything - and I highly doubt DeRozan signed on to come off the bench in year 1.