Keegan Murray insights (Hawkeye fan)

D

DanHawkPella

Prospect
It's been good getting to know the Kings team, organization and fans a bit over the last few weeks as I've tried to stay up to date on Keegan's progress. This message board, LockedOnKings and several other Youtube streams have been a daily visit. Just wanted to share some thoughts to the extent they add any value here.

Most of the assessments of Keegan both pre-draft and post-draft appear to be 90% spot on. Here's some notes on the 10%, at least from my POV:

1. The narrative that Keegan has a high floor is based on tape and is very accurate. The narrative that Keegan has a lower ceiling is only based on age, nothing else. Keegan and Kris both had late growth spurts and have continued to improve up to this day. I don't know what Keegan's ceiling is, but I am 100% certain that whatever it is he will reach it, which is more than many NBA prospects can say. He is very athletic imo (his smoothness sometimes conceals this) but he isn't elite athletic, so that hurts his ceiling a bit. But I do think he'll get a bit stronger, tighten up his handles and become a better passer even over just the next year. He will max out his skills because the dude just works hard and is a professional in everything he does. Kris, not Keegan, was the better 3 point shooter of the twins 1 year ago, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Dude just keeps getting better.

2. Keegan's biggest weakness imo is that while he is fast he doesn't have a quick first step. So when he has the ball and is 1 on 1 with a SET DEFENDER, it is hard for him to just drive past him. Defenders can flatten out his drive and force him into help defenders in the driving lane and that can lead to turnovers. He will develop better handles over time to avoid the turnover, but that doesn't solve the first step issue. This is why Keegan is so much better when he catches the ball on the move, because if he gets even a half step advantage from that then he will get past you, and if he doesn't he has a great reverse pivot into another shot. He has elite body control in the paint and is able to finish around people with good balance, ambidextrous finishing shots, and stability in the air. He can also drive off of hard close outs on his shot for the same reason. I think coming off of staggered screens like he did in an earlier game, developing his step back shot like he did yesterday, or using a pull back dribble to get the defender to step towards him can help also. So ball handling can help him get an advantage, but he is REALLY good cutting off the ball so hopefully the motion offense keeps him moving and not just spacing out all the time for kick out 3's (although that is good too).

3. I agree he is probably a 4/3 position wise, not a 3/4. If Harrison Barnes is also a 4/3 at this point in his career, perhaps they trade him but I think Barnes is a great teammate and chemistry guy and it doesn't hurt to have redundancy at those spots. I'm sure he'd be a great mentor to Murray. Murray I think can guard 3's on switches pretty well, assuming he may only have to guard them for 18 seconds or so. But guarding a 3 for the full shot clock will take some agility work. I do think on offense it's not a problem having him at a 3 depending on what the offense requires from that position.

4. Keegan actually has a lot of emotions INSIDE as he said in one interview, he just found that when he expressed them on the court that it hurt his game so he's tried to be very stable on the court. This is why his interviews show a lot more personality than his on court demeanor. But he's VERY competitive, so don't let his stoicism fool you.

5. I've said for 12 months now that Keegan would be a perfect fit for a team with 2 "initiators" who needed a "glue" guy to fill in all the cracks. Keegan can't just line up and beat his guy 1 on 1, but he can beat you in so many other ways and he's 100% unselfish too. So the star players should love him. He has a bit of Robert Horry in him where he isn't the star, but he's going to kill you in certain situations, isn't afraid of the big shot, and just make the team a whole lot better. If the teams needs rebounding and transition offense in one game, he'll give you that. If they need a catch and shoot specialist in another game he can do that. If they need a cutter and someone to take out another team's PF, he will do that. He can flex in so many ways that he should be a great piece for a coach to have. Iowa used to post him up in transition as part of a secondary fast break before help defenders were ready - I hope they allow him this because if you don't get a layup in transition a quick feed to him on the block will get the Kings some hoops even if they don't feature him there in the half court much.

Iowa played Gonzaga a few years back so I was vaguely familiar with Sabonis but don't watch much NBA currently (3 kids, coach basketball, full time job) so hadn't seen any NBA tape of his. Watched a recent video on him and that dude is ridiculous inside 10 feet. I play post in pick up basketball and use a lot of his pivots and have a true hook shot as well, so I totally appreciate what he can do. However, he can do it with both hands, is strong as a bull, and has great vision for passing which I find hard to do when pivoting down low against double teams. Dude is a beast, and I can see Keegan helping him in so many ways, along with Fox.

From the outside it feels like the Kings have made a lot of good decisions lately and the team overall talent and fit is really starting to come together. Defense, especially with Sabonis, is perhaps a key question, but with Brown coaching their should be a focus on that end. Offensively the team is looking very good with a lot more pieces to play off of Fox and Sabonis (shooting primarily).

Hope the Kings can make the playoffs - it looks like they have the pieces to do so, the West is just a meat grinder though.

Cheers!
 
One other note:

Keegan led the NCAA in several categories last season, including:

- Points / Field Goals
- Player Efficiency Rating
- Win Shares
- Box Plus/Minus
- Offensive Plus/Minus
- Win Shares per 40 minutes

I wanted to highlight the Player Efficiency Rating (PER) because a lot of that is just being efficient with your shots taken and shots made (among other things). If you look at Effective Field Goal percentage, Keegan shot 61.4% last season (This calculation differs from normal FG% in that it multiplies 3 point FG's made by 1.5 to account for the higher points you get if you make them).

Keep track of his effective FG% for each game because if you adjust the 3 point FG's made by 1.5 and then do the calculation, his is VERY CONSISTENTLY around or above 50% and should be even higher on the main team. Good decision making, and high level of shot making.
 
I agree with almost everything you said there. Your point about him getting the ball while on the move is a really good point that hasn't been talked about. His one successful drive through the lane to the rim in the 4th quarter of yesterday's game was when he got the ball on the move and eurostepped around the defenders for the bucket. Once he gets going, he's got some tools but he just hasn't shown any ability whatsoever to take a guy off the dribble and drive to the rim. We have seen him with a couple nice step backs off the dribble, which is promising.

The only thing I disagree with is that the narrative that his ceiling is low is only because of age. While that's one aspect of it, I think his ceiling is lower than other players because of his lack of a first step and ball handling. I don't think there's much he can do about his lack of a first step. His ball handling should improve a bit but I don't think it'll improve to the level necessary to be able to get by his man without having a quick first step. Harrison Barnes may be the perfect player to learn from in his rookie season. Barnes has a quicker first step than Murray but it's merely average. What he does have are tighter handles that allow him to do work in the lane without losing the ball. If Murray turned out to be a more consistent version of Barnes that doesn't just randomly disappear for a few games at a time, that would be a huge plus.
 
ESP47 said:
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The only thing I disagree with is that the narrative that his ceiling is low is only because of age. While that's one aspect of it, I think his ceiling is lower than other players because of his lack of a first step and ball handling. I don't think there's much he can do about his lack of a first step. His ball handling should improve a bit but I don't think it'll improve to the level necessary to be able to get by his man without having a quick first step. Harrison Barnes may be the perfect player to learn from in his rookie season. Barnes has a quicker first step than Murray but it's merely average. What he does have are tighter handles that allow him to do work in the lane without losing the ball. If Murray turned out to be a more consistent version of Barnes that doesn't just randomly disappear for a few games at a time, that would be a huge plus.
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Agreed - he has perhaps B+ level athleticism compared to an Ivey, so that is a limiter. I watched Ivey a lot this year and it will be interesting to see if he can reach HIS ceiling. He was so good just at blowing by people that some of the skill items get left behind, and he's trying to catch up. His shooting got a lot better this past season, but he might not have as many offensive options as Keegan simply because he could rely on his quickness and explosiveness.
 
DanHawkPella said:
It's been good getting to know the Kings team, organization and fans a bit over the last few weeks as I've tried to stay up to date on Keegan's progress. This message board, LockedOnKings and several other Youtube streams have been a daily visit. Just wanted to share some thoughts to the extent they add any value here.

Most of the assessments of Keegan both pre-draft and post-draft appear to be 90% spot on. Here's some notes on the 10%, at least from my POV:

1. The narrative that Keegan has a high floor is based on tape and is very accurate. The narrative that Keegan has a lower ceiling is only based on age, nothing else. Keegan and Kris both had late growth spurts and have continued to improve up to this day. I don't know what Keegan's ceiling is, but I am 100% certain that whatever it is he will reach it, which is more than many NBA prospects can say. He is very athletic imo (his smoothness sometimes conceals this) but he isn't elite athletic, so that hurts his ceiling a bit. But I do think he'll get a bit stronger, tighten up his handles and become a better passer even over just the next year. He will max out his skills because the dude just works hard and is a professional in everything he does. Kris, not Keegan, was the better 3 point shooter of the twins 1 year ago, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Dude just keeps getting better.

2. Keegan's biggest weakness imo is that while he is fast he doesn't have a quick first step. So when he has the ball and is 1 on 1 with a SET DEFENDER, it is hard for him to just drive past him. Defenders can flatten out his drive and force him into help defenders in the driving lane and that can lead to turnovers. He will develop better handles over time to avoid the turnover, but that doesn't solve the first step issue. This is why Keegan is so much better when he catches the ball on the move, because if he gets even a half step advantage from that then he will get past you, and if he doesn't he has a great reverse pivot into another shot. He has elite body control in the paint and is able to finish around people with good balance, ambidextrous finishing shots, and stability in the air. He can also drive off of hard close outs on his shot for the same reason. I think coming off of staggered screens like he did in an earlier game, developing his step back shot like he did yesterday, or using a pull back dribble to get the defender to step towards him can help also. So ball handling can help him get an advantage, but he is REALLY good cutting off the ball so hopefully the motion offense keeps him moving and not just spacing out all the time for kick out 3's (although that is good too).

3. I agree he is probably a 4/3 position wise, not a 3/4. If Harrison Barnes is also a 4/3 at this point in his career, perhaps they trade him but I think Barnes is a great teammate and chemistry guy and it doesn't hurt to have redundancy at those spots. I'm sure he'd be a great mentor to Murray. Murray I think can guard 3's on switches pretty well, assuming he may only have to guard them for 18 seconds or so. But guarding a 3 for the full shot clock will take some agility work. I do think on offense it's not a problem having him at a 3 depending on what the offense requires from that position.

4. Keegan actually has a lot of emotions INSIDE as he said in one interview, he just found that when he expressed them on the court that it hurt his game so he's tried to be very stable on the court. This is why his interviews show a lot more personality than his on court demeanor. But he's VERY competitive, so don't let his stoicism fool you.

5. I've said for 12 months now that Keegan would be a perfect fit for a team with 2 "initiators" who needed a "glue" guy to fill in all the cracks. Keegan can't just line up and beat his guy 1 on 1, but he can beat you in so many other ways and he's 100% unselfish too. So the star players should love him. He has a bit of Robert Horry in him where he isn't the star, but he's going to kill you in certain situations, isn't afraid of the big shot, and just make the team a whole lot better. If the teams needs rebounding and transition offense in one game, he'll give you that. If they need a catch and shoot specialist in another game he can do that. If they need a cutter and someone to take out another team's PF, he will do that. He can flex in so many ways that he should be a great piece for a coach to have. Iowa used to post him up in transition as part of a secondary fast break before help defenders were ready - I hope they allow him this because if you don't get a layup in transition a quick feed to him on the block will get the Kings some hoops even if they don't feature him there in the half court much.

Iowa played Gonzaga a few years back so I was vaguely familiar with Sabonis but don't watch much NBA currently (3 kids, coach basketball, full time job) so hadn't seen any NBA tape of his. Watched a recent video on him and that dude is ridiculous inside 10 feet. I play post in pick up basketball and use a lot of his pivots and have a true hook shot as well, so I totally appreciate what he can do. However, he can do it with both hands, is strong as a bull, and has great vision for passing which I find hard to do when pivoting down low against double teams. Dude is a beast, and I can see Keegan helping him in so many ways, along with Fox.

From the outside it feels like the Kings have made a lot of good decisions lately and the team overall talent and fit is really starting to come together. Defense, especially with Sabonis, is perhaps a key question, but with Brown coaching their should be a focus on that end. Offensively the team is looking very good with a lot more pieces to play off of Fox and Sabonis (shooting primarily).

Hope the Kings can make the playoffs - it looks like they have the pieces to do so, the West is just a meat grinder though.

Cheers!
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Good post. How's his offensive rebounding outside of his area? I didn't expect much, because of where I thought the Kings would play him on the floor, but was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. So far, he's about as expected.

As for moving, yea, it looks that he's much more comfortable driving to the rim if he gets the ball on his right hand. He's had a few decent drives with his left the last two games, but the burst just isn't the same.
 
As far as playing KM/HB on the court together, seems like that could be a challenge. Who is checking the 3? It's easy to see Brandon Ingram etc. blowing by either and Sabonas left to foul out trying to protect the rim.
 
gilly420 said:
As far as playing KM/HB on the court together, seems like that could be a challenge. Who is checking the 3? It's easy to see Brandon Ingram etc. blowing by either and Sabonas left to foul out trying to protect the rim.
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I think Barnes is going to have to play the 3. Not ideal but he's more of a 3 than Murray looks to be.

It's not like Barnes is totally out of position playing the 3. It's just not his best position anymore.
 
DanHawkPella said:
2. Keegan's biggest weakness imo is that while he is fast he doesn't have a quick first step. So when he has the ball and is 1 on 1 with a SET DEFENDER, it is hard for him to just drive past him. Defenders can flatten out his drive and force him into help defenders in the driving lane and that can lead to turnovers. He will develop better handles over time to avoid the turnover, but that doesn't solve the first step issue. This is why Keegan is so much better when he catches the ball on the move, because if he gets even a half step advantage from that then he will get past you, and if he doesn't he has a great reverse pivot into another shot. He has elite body control in the paint and is able to finish around people with good balance, ambidextrous finishing shots, and stability in the air. He can also drive off of hard close outs on his shot for the same reason. I think coming off of staggered screens like he did in an earlier game, developing his step back shot like he did yesterday, or using a pull back dribble to get the defender to step towards him can help also. So ball handling can help him get an advantage, but he is REALLY good cutting off the ball so hopefully the motion offense keeps him moving and not just spacing out all the time for kick out 3's (although that is good too).
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Welcome and great post overall, but I just wanted to focus on this portion.

Keegan should get lots of open looks off Domas post ups and Fox drives just by using his smarts to reposition himself from beyond three. And he'll also no doubt be the beneficiary of a lot of passes from Sabonis when he cuts hard. But the Kings should definitely be setting staggered screens and pin downs that Murray and read and react to. I think that's a strength of his game. And a lot like what Orlando (and Michigan) did with Franz Wagner, the Kings should be looking to set screens for Murray where he's curling from the top of the arc and catching the ball on the move with some momentum towards the hoop. I think running that sort of action for him would help put him in a position to succeed as a rookie.
 
First of all, thank you @DanHawkPella for the insight!

funkykingston said:
Welcome and great post overall, but I just wanted to focus on this portion.

Keegan should get lots of open looks off Domas post ups and Fox drives just by using his smarts to reposition himself from beyond three. And he'll also no doubt be the beneficiary of a lot of passes from Sabonis when he cuts hard. But the Kings should definitely be setting staggered screens and pin downs that Murray and read and react to. I think that's a strength of his game. And a lot like what Orlando (and Michigan) did with Franz Wagner, the Kings should be looking to set screens for Murray where he's curling from the top of the arc and catching the ball on the move with some momentum towards the hoop. I think running that sort of action for him would help put him in a position to succeed as a rookie.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly.

As much as Keegan fits the Kings' current roster, I can't help but think Sacramento is also a very good fit for young Keegan. For a cerebral guy like Keegan Murray, it would have been a bit of an adjustment had he drafted higher and/or to a team like the Magic where they'd need the draftee to be the focal point going forward, whereas with the Kings, behind Fox and Domas in the pecking order, so to speak, he can stand just a little bit farther and observe. And from watching his last couple of outings, it feels obvious to me that he is at full power when he can asset the situation, watch how the game goes and react to it accordingly. Or in other words, playing at his own pace.
 
funkykingston said:
Welcome and great post overall, but I just wanted to focus on this portion.

Keegan should get lots of open looks off Domas post ups and Fox drives just by using his smarts to reposition himself from beyond three. And he'll also no doubt be the beneficiary of a lot of passes from Sabonis when he cuts hard. But the Kings should definitely be setting staggered screens and pin downs that Murray and read and react to. I think that's a strength of his game. And a lot like what Orlando (and Michigan) did with Franz Wagner, the Kings should be looking to set screens for Murray where he's curling from the top of the arc and catching the ball on the move with some momentum towards the hoop. I think running that sort of action for him would help put him in a position to succeed as a rookie.
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Totally agree from what I've seen so far, Funk.
 
kb02 said:
Good post. How's his offensive rebounding outside of his area? I didn't expect much, because of where I thought the Kings would play him on the floor, but was hoping to be pleasantly surprised. So far, he's about as expected.

As for moving, yea, it looks that he's much more comfortable driving to the rim if he gets the ball on his right hand. He's had a few decent drives with his left the last two games, but the burst just isn't the same.
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I'd say he's active and he should get a fair amount of offensive rebounds once his guy is trying to help on other players. When your guy gives help, often you can get a kick out 3 or a dump down pass, but the other benefit is that there is nobody there to screen you out on weak side boards which are usually instant buckets. He should do well there as he finishes well and rebounds well when he can get position. Didn't rebound well the last game for some reason, but he's a very consistent rebounder and floor runner.
 
First, thanks for the great post. I totally agree about hitting Murray with passes when he's on the move. Not only does Sabonis need to do it, the guards also need to do it. Over the past several years, I have not seen the Kings' guards do much of these on-the-move passes, however. It may be somewhat challenging for them. It will be interesting to see in the upcoming season to see to what degree they can do so.
 
DanHawkPella said:
It's been good getting to know the Kings team, organization and fans a bit over the last few weeks as I've tried to stay up to date on Keegan's progress. This message board, LockedOnKings and several other Youtube streams have been a daily visit. Just wanted to share some thoughts to the extent they add any value here.

Most of the assessments of Keegan both pre-draft and post-draft appear to be 90% spot on. Here's some notes on the 10%, at least from my POV:

1. The narrative that Keegan has a high floor is based on tape and is very accurate. The narrative that Keegan has a lower ceiling is only based on age, nothing else. Keegan and Kris both had late growth spurts and have continued to improve up to this day. I don't know what Keegan's ceiling is, but I am 100% certain that whatever it is he will reach it, which is more than many NBA prospects can say. He is very athletic imo (his smoothness sometimes conceals this) but he isn't elite athletic, so that hurts his ceiling a bit. But I do think he'll get a bit stronger, tighten up his handles and become a better passer even over just the next year. He will max out his skills because the dude just works hard and is a professional in everything he does. Kris, not Keegan, was the better 3 point shooter of the twins 1 year ago, but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Dude just keeps getting better.

2. Keegan's biggest weakness imo is that while he is fast he doesn't have a quick first step. So when he has the ball and is 1 on 1 with a SET DEFENDER, it is hard for him to just drive past him. Defenders can flatten out his drive and force him into help defenders in the driving lane and that can lead to turnovers. He will develop better handles over time to avoid the turnover, but that doesn't solve the first step issue. This is why Keegan is so much better when he catches the ball on the move, because if he gets even a half step advantage from that then he will get past you, and if he doesn't he has a great reverse pivot into another shot. He has elite body control in the paint and is able to finish around people with good balance, ambidextrous finishing shots, and stability in the air. He can also drive off of hard close outs on his shot for the same reason. I think coming off of staggered screens like he did in an earlier game, developing his step back shot like he did yesterday, or using a pull back dribble to get the defender to step towards him can help also. So ball handling can help him get an advantage, but he is REALLY good cutting off the ball so hopefully the motion offense keeps him moving and not just spacing out all the time for kick out 3's (although that is good too).

3. I agree he is probably a 4/3 position wise, not a 3/4. If Harrison Barnes is also a 4/3 at this point in his career, perhaps they trade him but I think Barnes is a great teammate and chemistry guy and it doesn't hurt to have redundancy at those spots. I'm sure he'd be a great mentor to Murray. Murray I think can guard 3's on switches pretty well, assuming he may only have to guard them for 18 seconds or so. But guarding a 3 for the full shot clock will take some agility work. I do think on offense it's not a problem having him at a 3 depending on what the offense requires from that position.

4. Keegan actually has a lot of emotions INSIDE as he said in one interview, he just found that when he expressed them on the court that it hurt his game so he's tried to be very stable on the court. This is why his interviews show a lot more personality than his on court demeanor. But he's VERY competitive, so don't let his stoicism fool you.

5. I've said for 12 months now that Keegan would be a perfect fit for a team with 2 "initiators" who needed a "glue" guy to fill in all the cracks. Keegan can't just line up and beat his guy 1 on 1, but he can beat you in so many other ways and he's 100% unselfish too. So the star players should love him. He has a bit of Robert Horry in him where he isn't the star, but he's going to kill you in certain situations, isn't afraid of the big shot, and just make the team a whole lot better. If the teams needs rebounding and transition offense in one game, he'll give you that. If they need a catch and shoot specialist in another game he can do that. If they need a cutter and someone to take out another team's PF, he will do that. He can flex in so many ways that he should be a great piece for a coach to have. Iowa used to post him up in transition as part of a secondary fast break before help defenders were ready - I hope they allow him this because if you don't get a layup in transition a quick feed to him on the block will get the Kings some hoops even if they don't feature him there in the half court much.

Iowa played Gonzaga a few years back so I was vaguely familiar with Sabonis but don't watch much NBA currently (3 kids, coach basketball, full time job) so hadn't seen any NBA tape of his. Watched a recent video on him and that dude is ridiculous inside 10 feet. I play post in pick up basketball and use a lot of his pivots and have a true hook shot as well, so I totally appreciate what he can do. However, he can do it with both hands, is strong as a bull, and has great vision for passing which I find hard to do when pivoting down low against double teams. Dude is a beast, and I can see Keegan helping him in so many ways, along with Fox.

From the outside it feels like the Kings have made a lot of good decisions lately and the team overall talent and fit is really starting to come together. Defense, especially with Sabonis, is perhaps a key question, but with Brown coaching their should be a focus on that end. Offensively the team is looking very good with a lot more pieces to play off of Fox and Sabonis (shooting primarily).

Hope the Kings can make the playoffs - it looks like they have the pieces to do so, the West is just a meat grinder though.

Cheers!
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Exactly my feeling. Barnes and Murray also have mismatch potential. If it's not workable then yeah, figure it out, but I think at this point, this combo is too interesting to pass up if for nothing more than their cerebral off ball movement and timing.
 
Agree with OP's comment about his ceiling.

Murray has to be the biggest "6'8" guy that I have ever seen. After watching him for a few games, the idea that he is supposedly 6'8 (looks taller) seems wrong. He isn't built like a tweener, he's built like a 4. He has great awareness on both ends of the floor. The fact that he gets his points within the flow of offense makes him an excellent player to have on the floor with Fox and Sabonis.
 
Just wanted to update my OP with some thoughts from the OKC game:

1. Keegan going head to head with Chet guarding him was fascinating. What worked was pump fakes (side step three) and drives, getting into his body and drawing fouls. What didn't work was step back moves because Chet was so long he either didn't shoot it, or didn't shoot it well lol. Overall did a good job but that step back idea clearly didn't work, although I think against most guys guarding him it will be fine. Some of us who hoop can empathize with him if you've ever tried to get shots off against a much longer player :)

2. Keegan defended pretty well. I would say that Chet is very good on the drive at splitting defenders and taking his 2 long steps and dunking - its an area where his skinny frame helps him. Keegan gave up 1 or 2 of these. You almost need to retreat quickly to try to catch him after his steps because if you stop too early and try to swipe the ball he's going to clear it and get past you for that dunk. He did force Chet to pass quite often after a move because he moved his feet and bodied him pretty well. Chet's passing is pretty good for his size, though, even on the move.

3. Keegan had a lot more chances to essentially square up and go 1-1 with a set defender, especially late in the 4th when they were trying to come back. This was essentially an isolation with him at the slot. This is his biggest weak spot imo, as he can struggle to get past set defenders, rather than catching it on the move or in the post. I thought he did a very good job last night - better than expected. The shots he got were still heavily contested but he has such good body control that he was able to hit several of them (and missed a few others). As his ball handling improves, this will get better, and when Chet isn't guarding him the step back 3 or mid range will be easier.

OKC went on a 24-2 run when Keegan left the floor and when he initially came back it didn't get much better. They went to him heavily in the 4th and I thought he delivered, but ultimately the defense and a few bad shots/turnovers on offense did them in. OKC shot pretty well. I did like how hard the Kings were playing the last 2 minutes.
 
Side note: Once Chet starts driving I would drop quickly and try to defend the rim, making him hit mid range floater type shots. I'm not sure he's good at those. He's good at catch and shoot 3's, or transition pull up 3's maybe, but not side to side 3's, or mid range off the dribble. Once he dribbles he wants to get to the rim, so just retreat enough that you can body him as he gets to 6-7 feet - don't let him get by you at 15 feet because there is no recovery after that :)
 
SacTownKid said:
Exactly my feeling. Barnes and Murray also have mismatch potential. If it's not workable then yeah, figure it out, but I think at this point, this combo is too interesting to pass up if for nothing more than their cerebral off ball movement and timing.
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I don't like the pair on defense. Barnes is a smallish 4. He doesn't have the athleticism I'd like to see at the 3. I think Murray spells the end of Barnes, and I'm hoping there is more athleticism coming back in trade. I've also thought for years that Barnes is not the best complement for Fox on offense. Yes, he can hit an outside shot, but he's not the fastest guy in the NBA. Please give me more speed, athleticism and defense at that position.
 
Kingster said:
I don't like the pair on defense. Barnes is a smallish 4. He doesn't have the athleticism I'd like to see at the 3. I think Murray spells the end of Barnes, and I'm hoping there is more athleticism coming back in trade. I've also thought for years that Barnes is not the best complement for Fox on offense. Yes, he can hit an outside shot, but he's not the fastest guy in the NBA. Please give me more speed, athleticism and defense at that position.
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On paper at least Monte didn't build a team around defense at all and unless there is such a key weakpoint in that starting lineup, one player out of a group of 5 isn't going to change much either way. This is all going to be based on coaching and style. Both are big enough to have fluidity in some ways defensively I think. Barnes was by far the best compliment to Sabonis offensively. Almost from day 1 he was right back to his Warriors days of playing off of Andrew Bogut. I say see how it works and if it doesn't then you have a valuable expiring at the deadline.
 
SacTownKid said:
On paper at least Monte didn't build a team around defense at all and unless there is such a key weakpoint in that starting lineup, one player out of a group of 5 isn't going to change much either way. This is all going to be based on coaching and style. Both are big enough to have fluidity in some ways defensively I think. Barnes was by far the best compliment to Sabonis offensively. Almost from day 1 he was right back to his Warriors days of playing off of Andrew Bogut. I say see how it works and if it doesn't then you have a valuable expiring at the deadline.
Click to expand...

I thought the Mitchell pick and the trade for DDV were signalling there would be an emphasis on defense, especially given the Kings low rating in that area. Then DDV wasn't resigned, which appears to be taking a step backwards in that area. Monk seems to bring more offense than defense to the party. (I'll reserve judgement complete judgment on him until 15-20 games into the season). Jones was a better defender than Holmes; he wasn't resigned. Overall, it seems that this team is worse talent-wise in defense than last year. Which tells me that an athletically sub-par Barnes needs to go just to maintain the status quo on defense. I'm open to miracles; maybe Brown will turn water into wine and get a less talented defensive team into a middling defensive club. But with a front line of Sabonis, Barnes, and Murray, it seems to me that there is going to be a lot of pressure put on the guards to keep their man in front of them because the back-line is not going to be above average in covering for their mistakes.

As far as the deadline goes, if they make a deal involving Barnes at the deadline it more than likely will be telling everyone the season is an abject failure. This is the year that they need to have a lineup that makes sense from the get-go, not a wait-and-see "experiment" with which we've become very accustomed.

Lastly, in his interviews Brown has seemed pretty sanguine about the loss of defensive talent, whereas he likes the additional shooting in Monk and Heurter so the Kings can spread the floor and get space for Fox on offense. Maybe he is confident in his ability to get more (defense) with less. Maybe the firepower outweighs less defensive talent. It's something I will be watching very closely.
 
Kingster said:
I thought the Mitchell pick and the trade for DDV were signalling there would be an emphasis on defense, especially given the Kings low rating in that area. Then DDV wasn't resigned, which appears to be taking a step backwards in that area. Monk seems to bring more offense than defense to the party. (I'll reserve judgement complete judgment on him until 15-20 games into the season). Jones was a better defender than Holmes; he wasn't resigned. Overall, it seems that this team is worse talent-wise in defense than last year. Which tells me that an athletically sub-par Barnes needs to go just to maintain the status quo on defense. I'm open to miracles; maybe Brown will turn water into wine and get a less talented defensive team into a middling defensive club. But with a front line of Sabonis, Barnes, and Murray, it seems to me that there is going to be a lot of pressure put on the guards to keep their man in front of them because the back-line is not going to be above average in covering for their mistakes.

As far as the deadline goes, if they make a deal involving Barnes at the deadline it more than likely will be telling everyone the season is an abject failure. This is the year that they need to have a lineup that makes sense from the get-go, not a wait-and-see "experiment" with which we've become very accustomed.

Lastly, in his interviews Brown has seemed pretty sanguine about the loss of defensive talent, whereas he likes the additional shooting in Monk and Heurter so the Kings can spread the floor and get space for Fox on offense. Maybe he is confident in his ability to get more (defense) with less. Maybe the firepower outweighs less defensive talent. It's something I will be watching very closely.
Click to expand...

I definitely share your concern about what kind of team defense Brown can generate from individual pieces/players who, with one or two exceptions, haven't shown much defensively. That said, some reasons for hope as I see it:
  1. The team's BBIQ definitely went up, substantially, which itself will help them maximize team defense.
  2. Brown, Brown, Brown. "What can Brown do for you the Kings' defense?"
  3. As has often been said, Fox has the tools *right now* to be a very good defender, much better than he has been. If Brown and more promising circumstances can unlock that defensive want-to... A defensively locked-in Fox would be a HUGE + relative to past performance.
  4. Barring a spate of injuries, this Kings' team will be deeper than it's been in a long time. A consistent 9 or 10-player rotation that plays HARD and smart would help a ton on both ends.
  5. At the end of the day, it's about outscoring the other team. 132-125 and 95-90 are both winning score lines. Hopefully, the Kings' efficiency and excellence on offense will trump whatever defensive liabilities they have on most nights.
 
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