Joerger Status. (He’s Fired)

[KingsFanSince85]

Jason Anderson authored an article that aligns with my opinion on both firings. While I had previously stated that I felt firing another coach could result in a fairly large setback, the more I learned and the more I thought about it I feel, like Anderson, that Vlade had to do what he’s done. I also feel the move isn’t a sign of dysfunction but rather an attempt to remove it.

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/article229237434.html#storylink=hpdigest_sports

 

[KingsFanSince85]

If all that’s true, good riddance. I get wanting Doncic over Bagley. I get that. But after seeing what the kid is able to do, how could you not love him? And no faith in Giles? After the flashes he’s shown after barely playing any level of basketball in ~3 years and his teammates constantly gushing over him. Buddy gets publicly chewed out after a made 3, yet Bogs can do whatever the hell he wanted all season long with nary a word.

David just seems like a hardheaded SOB.

I said at the time that the public undressing of Buddy was a big deal. DJ isn’t Pop. He hasn’t earned cart-blanche widely amongst the players in this league. It was a bad look, especially considering Buddy hit the damn shot. Having KD there with a front row seat to poke fun at it and Damian Lillard admonishing via Twitter only made it worse.

Regarding Harry Giles and MB3, I think we all saw signs of it with the inconsistent and often limited playing time. It can be argued that H20 is a work in progress and often didn’t earn as much PT due to inexperience and mistakes and needed to be brought along slowly due to injury history. I’m sure DJ had some good reasons for his decisions. However, I get the feeling that he resisted direction from his bosses. Anytime someone goes down that road, they risk getting fired.

From day one I felt like DJ felt empowered to do things as he wanted because of the length of his contract and the fact that KINGS couldn’t afford to fire another coach so soon. He knew he’d be around for a while so he didn’t have to follow orders if he disagreed with them. That’s why I believe the KINGS transition to a fast-paced team didn’t begin in YR2 when Fox first arrived. He relented this season probably because his preferred style didn’t work during the 1st 2 seasons and he only had one season remaining on his contract beyond this season. It was now or never.

But that wasn’t enough to keep his job because he remained inflexible with other strategic items he disagreed with — namely how to integrate Bagley and Giles — and had the highly publicized spat with Williams and the public admonishing of the teams top scorer. All in all I believe the KINGS are far better off w/o fractured relationship between HC and GM and HC and players — especially considering that they were able to replace the coach with a candidate they coveted highly going into their previous search 3 years ago.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Dave sounds like the Jeff Fisher of the NBA. Constant friction with the front office over personnel. NFL coaches are adamant that their "system" cannot work without their type of QB, and they play office politics to get their QB. Of course, their QB represents a contract extension and roster control, because one must have at least 3 seasons to install his "system" with his new QB and be able to build the roster out around said QB. Jeff Fisher was the most egregious version of this. I think Luka represented a new QB to Dave--an automatic trade request from Fox, and an automatic extension for Dave to install his "system" with his new QB, Luka. When he didn't get his QB he started playing politics and burying front office favorites.

 

[swisshh]

The "wanted Luka" story is a project of Kings PR.

Don't forget that he compared Bagley to Durant. Be careful of what you read locally. There's very few authentic voices.

And fwiw, most people wanted Luka and I doubt Walton is any different. Luka is ROTY and very good. It's a sign that this is spin that it's even being framed as a reason for letting him go.

The Joerger-to-Luke move is very grass is always greener on the other side. You got to hope that Vlade knows what he's doing. Just avoid the narrative pieces.

 

[SLAB]

^^^ Wasn’t the Durant/Westbrook quip post-Doncic talk damage control?

 

[NME]

^^^ Wasn’t the Durant/Westbrook quip post-Doncic talk damage control?

Yes, and going over the top like that only validated that he meant the initial comment.

 

[jcwkings]

I still think it's weird that no player has publically thanked or tipped their hat in some way to Joerger or the coaching staff. I don't think there was a toxic divide between them and it's a coaching staff that worked with and developed these guys for 2-3 years.

 

[ParniValjak]

I still think it's weird that no player has publically thanked or tipped their hat in some way to Joerger or the coaching staff. I don't think there was a toxic divide between them and it's a coaching staff that worked with and developed these guys for 2-3 years.

I would not be reading too much into it. These things if they happen generally happen behind closed doors. All these players and coaches have each other's numbers that they can call and text.

I think people are reading too much into those things. Personally, if I was a player whose coach got fired, I would call them or send them a text. I wouldn't be going to the social media. That could be just me.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

^^^ Wasn’t the Durant/Westbrook quip post-Doncic talk damage control?

I think it was a very dry humor, cynical dig at the front office. Who has ever compared Bagley to Durant? Seriously? It was a smart*** allusion to Vlade's comments about Bagley playing some '3'. Even the Fox/Westbrook analogy is cynical hyperbole, IMO. They're comparable on speed, but nobody has ever said implied that Fox will stat-chase to that level...I mean, average a triple-double, sorry. Next question.

 

[sactowndog]

This. Joerger's blind refusal to player Harry or Bagley more than 25 minutes a night while also allowing Bogdan to do whatever the hell he wanted despite him sucking for most of the back half of the year doesn't exactly bely the whole "make 'em work" philosophy.

More than 25 minutes a night???

I distinctly remember having arguments about why Joeger wasn’t playing Harry 10 minutes in a blowout...

Joeger went significant stretches of the season playing 9 guys while Harry cooled his heels on the bench. The team needed those minutes from Harry and Harry needed those minutes to develop. Regardless of what Bogdan was doing, I’m sure those times contributed to Vlade’s decision making.

 

[sactowndog]

I'm willing to give Walton a chance, just like anyone else, but thinking Vlade and Co want a "yes, sir" type of coach. With the 4-year extension, its Vlade's way or the highway. Walton is still young. I didn't like the firing although I wasn't peaches especially with stubborn rotations, but it was a good season comparatively,. Then there's the "missing the playoffs" justification which was perfunctory explanation. If Walton doesn't make the playoffs next year, is he fired by this precedent? What does Vlade want though?.....ALL ROADS TO THE FUTURE MUST LEAD TO BETTER DEFENSE for this club. If they're only looking at one side-of-equation it'll be doomed to start. Resigning Cauley-Stein for defensive purposes is a fairly big deal, but not overpaying him either, as he has not corrected his turdish FTs.

I don’t think it’s my way or the highway. It’s wanting a coach who believes in the Kings players the same way Vlade does.

 

[sactowndog]

Joeger wanting Doncic over Bagley probably also applies to the narrative that Joeger wasn't all about the pace offense that he was using this year.

Had the Kings drafted Doncic over Bagley, the Kings offense would have been a lot different. By drafting Bagley over Doncic, Vlade basically gave Joeger a recipe for success with the fast paced offense. Any other half court, grit and grind type offense wouldn't work with the roster. Doncic would had slowed the pace down on this team.

When Joeger was hired, we had DMC, so his grit and grind offense made sense and could have worked. Once DMC was traded, Vlade quickly turned the roster over to become a fast paced, run and gun offense. Even after DMC was traded, Joeger stuck with the grit and grind offense with ZBo last year.

Joeger did a good job adapting this year, but we can now see that this may not had been by choice, but by insistence from the FO.

With Walton, I don't see that issue with style of play. He has been all about the run and gun and his teams played pretty good defense too. I think we have a much better marriage of styles between Vlade vision and Walton coaching now.

I’m not sure Dave fully adapted. To play at pace you have to play a deeper bench. Dave sitting Giles early and Bjelicia late in favor of a 9 man rotation tired his players out and got into their legs.

 

[Warhawk]

Many of these post-firing articles about DJ are full of speculation and "sources said" - I'm willing to bet these sources are folks like Bagley's father. I don't put much credibility on it. A lot of spin is being thrown around right now.

I will say that there were definitely some things about DJ that many of us would liked to have seen work out differently on the court, etc., including rotations. Hopefully Walton will address some of these. Sounds like he had similar issues in LA though.

 

[kingdivac]

The "wanted Luka" story is a project of Kings PR.

Don't forget that he compared Bagley to Durant. Be careful of what you read locally. There's very few authentic voices.

And fwiw, most people wanted Luka and I doubt Walton is any different. Luka is ROTY and very good. It's a sign that this is spin that it's even being framed as a reason for letting him go.

The Joerger-to-Luke move is very grass is always greener on the other side. You got to hope that Vlade knows what he's doing. Just avoid the narrative pieces.

I have no idea, but I agree that the Sacbee article is at best, speculation on team politics. These guys need coaching, not a cheerleader or chum. Joerger had the right to defend his work-space if you believe the explanations of the article. To the bigger question will Walton be a better coach than Joerger - I have no clue, but am a tad skeptical; more to the point roll a dice and you'd probably get a decent answer. A crap shoot. One thing is clear, Vlade is throwing away Joerger's past experience with the players. You can't completely make up for in game observation with tape watching. If there were grievances, air them out. Firing is the easy way out. What happens if this blows up next season, and the team regresses even more..
Although not directly comparable but relevant, one thing bothers me in that Joerger coached the Grizzlies team to well regarded defense consistently for several years....which is exactly what the Kings team needs. Joerger has a boatload of experience with that lacking aspect that Walton does not have. That's been canned now.

 

[kingdivac]

I don’t think it’s my way or the highway. It’s wanting a coach who believes in the Kings players the same way Vlade does.

That sounds like semantics - what does believe in your players mean? I'll admit Joerger's rotations irked me often, but he was consistent about it.

 

[Tetsujin]

That sounds like semantics - what does believe in your players mean? I'll admit Joerger's rotations irked me often, but he was consistent about it.

To be fair, being consistently bad at something isn’t exactly an endearing quality

 

[Kingster]

The more I read these articles and mull over the Divac comments and the season in general, the more I wonder about Joerger. I wanted to like the guy, I really did. I saw some good coaching from him. In particular, I thought after Vlade made the mid-season trade I thought Joerger got the team on the same page fairly quickly after the chaos. But there were all these very curt interviews that bordered on the rude and arrogant. I recall one interview Joerger had with Gary Gerould and Joerger was just downright rude, responding to good questions with three or four word answers. You could tell Gerould was taken aback. I was embarrassed for Gerould. It was rare that I thought I was hearing "authentic" Joerger. He seemed like he stuck to his script, just like he stuck to his script when he had his last interview with Napear. He said absolutely nothing revealing, nothing real. But that last game of the season was no script. For me, that was authentic Joerger. Here's a guy who doesn't play his starters on purpose in the 2nd half while the game goes down the tubes, making sure the team doesn't get its 40th win. That sealed the deal for me. He showed his true colors. I'm not going to miss him.

 

[kingdivac]

To be fair, being consistently bad at something isn’t exactly an endearing quality

It's all 2nd guessing with rotations. Even though a lineup isn't working, a substitution isn't guaranteed to remedy it. I'm not a Joerger fan per se, but I wanted to give it another season. I'll admit, alot of close losses generally points to poor coaching decisions. Team FTs though are on the players all the way. Walton has an easy beginning, to institute early and often FT therapy for Fox, WCS, (assuming resign), Giles, Bagley. Goal is for every one of those players to raise each's FT % 5% higher except for Stein, who must raise it 10%.

 

[sactowndog]

That sounds like semantics - what does believe in your players mean? I'll admit Joerger's rotations irked me often, but he was consistent about it.

I mean I know Vlade thought Giles was a high potential young player and Dave sat his ass on the bench for large parts of the season. I’m not just saying this point now. I mentioned it early and was told how wrong I was.

 

[kingdivac]

I mean I know Vlade thought Giles was a high potential young player and Dave sat his ass on the bench for large parts of the season. I’m not just saying this point now. I mentioned it early and was told how wrong I was.

You've been writing that for months - anyway - we'll never know now.....

 

[ParniValjak]

It's all 2nd guessing with rotations. Even though a lineup isn't working, a substitution isn't guaranteed to remedy it. I'm not a Joerger fan per se, but I wanted to give it another season. I'll admit, alot of close losses generally points to poor coaching decisions. Team FTs though are on the players all the way. Walton has an easy beginning, to institute early and often FT therapy for Fox, WCS, (assuming resign), Giles, Bagley. Goal is for every one of those players to raise each's FT % 5% higher except for Stein, who must raise it 10%.

I will be shocked if WCS is back. Everything in the last couple of months points to him being elsewhere next season and this team having a new starting C.

 

[VF21]

The more I read these articles and mull over the Divac comments and the season in general, the more I wonder about Joerger. I wanted to like the guy, I really did. I saw some good coaching from him. In particular, I thought after Vlade made the mid-season trade I thought Joerger got the team on the same page fairly quickly after the chaos. But there were all these very curt interviews that bordered on the rude and arrogant. I recall one interview Joerger had with Gary Gerould and Joerger was just downright rude, responding to good questions with three or four word answers. You could tell Gerould was taken aback. I was embarrassed for Gerould. It was rare that I thought I was hearing "authentic" Joerger. He seemed like he stuck to his script, just like he stuck to his script when he had his last interview with Napear. He said absolutely nothing revealing, nothing real. But that last game of the season was no script. For me, that was authentic Joerger. Here's a guy who doesn't play his starters on purpose in the 2nd half while the game goes down the tubes, making sure the team doesn't get its 40th win. That sealed the deal for me. He showed his true colors. I'm not going to miss him.

You wanted to like him? Hrm. You hid it pretty well.

It's real easy to look back and find examples to meet your conclusions after the fact. It's also really easy to kick somebody after they're on the ground.

Joerger helped the Kings regain some respect throughout the NBA. He got our team to a place where this place (KF) was active again and not just a shell of its former self. He did a good job IMHO with Fox and Bagley's development, laying a foundation Walton will surely build upon. He wasn't perfect, but he wan't the pariah some are painting him as.

 

[Kingster]

You wanted to like him? Hrm. You hid it pretty well.

It's real easy to look back and find examples to meet your conclusions after the fact. It's also really easy to kick somebody after they're on the ground.

Joerger helped the Kings regain some respect throughout the NBA. He got our team to a place where this place (KF) was active again and not just a shell of its former self. He did a good job IMHO with Fox and Bagley's development, laying a foundation Walton will surely build upon. He wasn't perfect, but he wan't the pariah some are painting him as.

You are sooooooooooooooo wrong on this one (and those who agreed with you). I bet I had many more positive reviews of Joerger's coaching than negative over the course of his tenure. I really think you must be confusing me with someone else. Either that or you're just paying attention to my lambasting of him after the last game of the season and don't recall earlier positive reviews. Unlike others, I didn't get all over him for rotations and his small-ball. Unlike others, I didn't get all over him for his tiff with Hield. I did want Bagley to start after the mid-point of the season, but even on that I was hardly on the warpath, as I said it was more important who finished rather than started. And I never until this point criticized the guy for his rudeness. What I did do during the summer was basically lay the line down in the sand and say it was ridiculous that this team was last in pace last year and would be very, very disappointed after hearing Joerger's comments about running if that running did not occur. He didn't disappoint in that regard.

 

[VF21]

You are sooooooooooooooo wrong on this one (and those who agreed with you). I bet I had many more positive reviews of Joerger's coaching than negative over the course of his tenure. I really think you must be confusing me with someone else. Either that or you're just paying attention to my lambasting of him after the last game of the season and don't recall earlier positive reviews. Unlike others, I didn't get all over him for rotations and his small-ball. Unlike others, I didn't get all over him for his tiff with Hield. I did want Bagley to start after the mid-point of the season, but even on that I was hardly on the warpath, as I said it was more important who finished rather than started. And I never until this point criticized the guy for his rudeness. What I did do during the summer was basically lay the line down in the sand and say it was ridiculous that this team was last in pace last year and would be very, very disappointed after hearing Joerger's comments about running if that running did not occur. He didn't disappoint in that regard.

You're right. I would simply delete my comment but that's not fair to you. I did have you confused with someone else (who shall remain nameless). Mea culpa. My snark to you was unwarranted but I believe the rest of my comment was true.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Sorry if you felt slighted Kingster, I was agreeing with the sentiment of VF's post that too many use the benefits of hindsight and have already seen a few too many setting it up with the Walton hire as well. I can't speak for the others but I assume it was the same thing.

 

[fnordius]

...speculation and "sources said"... I don't put much credibility on it. A lot of spin is being thrown around right now.

I realize that this statement is going to have limited appeal, but I think one of the best decisions I've ever made as a fan was to treat the front office as an incomprehensible black box. I accept that I really have no clue at all what goes on in there, could do nothing about it if I did know, and no longer look for managers to blame or vindicate. It makes for a lot less headaches, and other than that, literally nothing changes.

 

[VF21]

I realize that this statement is going to have limited appeal, but I think one of the best decisions I've ever made as a fan was to treat the front office as an incomprehensible black box. I accept that I really have no clue at all what goes on in there, could do nothing about it if I did know, and no longer look for managers to blame or vindicate. It makes for a lot less headaches, and other than that, literally nothing changes.

In other words, kinda like the good old days before social media?

 

[Kingster]

I'm willing to give Walton a chance, just like anyone else, but thinking Vlade and Co want a "yes, sir" type of coach. With the 4-year extension, its Vlade's way or the highway. Walton is still young. I didn't like the firing although I wasn't peaches especially with stubborn rotations, but it was a good season comparatively,. Then there's the "missing the playoffs" justification which was perfunctory explanation. If Walton doesn't make the playoffs next year, is he fired by this precedent? What does Vlade want though?.....ALL ROADS TO THE FUTURE MUST LEAD TO BETTER DEFENSE for this club. If they're only looking at one side-of-equation it'll be doomed to start. Resigning Cauley-Stein for defensive purposes is a fairly big deal, but not overpaying him either, as he has not corrected his turdish FTs.

You misunderstand the dynamic. It's not a "yes, sir" military style hierarchy, it's a flatter, "we vs. me" dynamic. Seeing eye to eye is trusting and understanding one another and seeing the game similarly, not an obsequious suck up relationship between coach and GM.

 

[NewArena]

I think it was a very dry humor, cynical dig at the front office. Who has ever compared Bagley to Durant? Seriously? It was a smart*** allusion to Vlade's comments about Bagley playing some '3'. Even the Fox/Westbrook analogy is cynical hyperbole, IMO. They're comparable on speed, but nobody has ever said implied that Fox will stat-chase to that level...I mean, average a triple-double, sorry. Next question.

Yea and you don’t bring the next Durant off of the damn bench. Saying one thing and doing another, is a great way to lose player respect and trust. Period.

 

[Livinthedream]

Yea and you don’t bring the next Durant off of the damn bench. Saying one thing and doing another, is a great way to lose player respect and trust. Period.

!!!!!!!!