[Rumor] Jake Fisher: Raptors ‘still intrigued’ by Domantas Sabonis

Capt. Factorial said:
Domas is a clearly superior player than JJJ by any advanced metric, and he's on a smaller contract.

JJJ fetched 3 firsts and two young guys with potential in Clayton and Hendricks.

If we come away with one pick and Barrett I will have an absolute conniption.
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The 3 picks are fairly poor, but still 3 picks nonetheless.

Meanwhile, we're getting people willing to trade a better player WHILE taking on a horrible contract for 1 FRP.

Make it make sense
 
The_Jamal said:
The 3 picks are fairly poor, but still 3 picks nonetheless.

Meanwhile, we're getting people willing to trade a better player WHILE taking on a horrible contract for 1 FRP.

Make it make sense
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Give me one unprotected pick that has the potential to hit the jackpot on vs. 3 likely mid-teens from a well run franchise. I think most of these teams have statistical models that assign value to every freaking pick out there based on team, number of years in the future, etc. It is likely very sophisticated.... I hope our team has one of these models, but I have my doubts. :)
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I think the big question at this point is, does the league value his style of play and ability to fit, as much as they do Jackson. The answer is probably not
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The answer is definitely not. JJJ is plug and play, for Sabonis to be successful you have to build the right team around him, and we know that team has a low ceiling.
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
how biased do you have to be to think Sabonis would have the same value as JJJ be for real
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A few years ago, when JJJ still had some upside, some might have been saying this. But now we know who he is, and like Sabonis, there are enough distinct flaws in his game to suppress his value somewhat. VORP, Win Shares, Box Plus-Minus... they all suggest Domas is a more impactful player.
 
Padrino said:
A few years ago, when JJJ still had some upside, some might have been saying this. But now we know who he is, and like Sabonis, there are enough distinct flaws in his game to suppress his value somewhat. VORP, Win Shares, Box Plus-Minus... they all suggest Domas is a more impactful player.
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He can still protect the rim and stretch the floor while fitting any team in the league
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
He can still protect the rim and stretch the floor while fitting any team in the league
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Sure. But despite that, he's had a very limited impact on Memphis' success since they drafted him. He's useful, certainly, but he's not the revolutionary 3 and D big he was hyped up to be. And those tools, while important, aren't the be-all/end-all, especially if you can't rebound. Like, at all. He's garbage on the boards in a way that's sort of astounding, given his athletic gifts. It's just not as large of a gap between the two players as you might imagine when we're evaluating their impact on winning. Neither is getting you to the Finals by themselves, but both have their strengths that could be valuable to the right teams.

In fact, I'd offer that Domas' skillset is looking more and more valuable in the modern NBA. Prior to this season, he was regularly in the top 5-10 in offensive rebounds every season. More and more NBA teams are looking to the possession game as a way to exploit inefficiencies. Houston's entire offense was basically built around Steven Adams' ability to generate more possessions for the Rockets, prior to his season-ending injury. JJJ likely isn't helping with the next big shift in analytics-driven NBA strategy.
 
Padrino said:
Sure. But despite that, he's had a very limited impact on Memphis' success since they drafted him. He's useful, certainly, but he's not the revolutionary 3 and D big he was hyped up to be. And those tools, while important, aren't the be-all/end-all, especially if you can't rebound. Like, at all. He's garbage on the boards in a way that's sort of astounding, given his athletic gifts. It's just not as large of a gap between the two players as you might imagine when we're evaluating their impact on winning. Neither is getting you to the Finals by themselves, but both have their strengths that could be valuable to the right teams.

In fact, I'd offer that Domas' skillset is looking more and more valuable in the modern NBA. Prior to this season, he was regularly in the top 5-10 in offensive rebounds every season. More and more NBA teams are looking to the possession game as a way to exploit inefficiencies. Houston's entire offense was basically built around Steven Adams' ability to generate more possessions for the Rockets, prior to his season-ending injury. JJJ likely isn't helping with the next big shift in analytics-driven NBA strategy.
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So you’re taking offensive rebounding over defense and offensive versatility
 
Alright **** it, this teams a dumpster fire. I'm on board with Ja coming to Sac in exchange for LaVine.

Demar for expiring - John Collins/Rozier doesn't really matter to me.

Sac out: LaVine/Sabonis
Sac in: Ja, Barrett, Ochai, Big TPE

Memphis out: Ja, Jerome
Memphis in: Lavine, Poeltl, 2 Raptors 1sts

Toronto out: Poeltl, Barrett, Ochai, 2 1sts
Toronto in: Sabonis, Jerome

Kings sit Murray/Ja the rest of the season. Dump Westbrook. Give tons of time to carter, nique, maxime, cardwell. Get a top 5 pick I'm going to assume worst case Caleb Wilson. Next year -

Ja/Monk
Barrett/Carter
Murray/Nique
Caleb Wilson/Hunter
Maxime/Cardwell

I know Vivek will never tank, so at least give me something to be excited about. A high energy team built around 20-27 year olds!
 
Padrino said:
No. I'm taking interior scoring, screen setting, playmaking, defensive rebounding, offensive rebounding, and impact on winning over defense and offensive versatility.
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So do you have an opinion on why there’s such low interest in Sabonis outside of Toronto if he offers all of that? Every team has an army of people looking at all the numbers so unless they’re looking at different stats, they must be underweighting what you mentioned vs some combination of tangible and intangible elements.
 
Tizzy Flip said:
So do you have an opinion on why there’s such low interest in Sabonis outside of Toronto if he offers all of that? Every team has an army of people looking at all the numbers so unless they’re looking at different stats, they must be underweighting what you mentioned vs some combination of tangible and intangible elements.
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I’m not sure that there’s low interest in Sabonis. We heard nothing about Utahs interest in JJJ or the Celts interest in Vuc, the trades just happened. Same deal when the Kings got Sabonis - all we kept hearing about was Ben Simmons. I think in general teams arent taking on long term money, but that’s more to do with the new CBA and the aprons vs Sabonis specifically.
 
TheMobb said:
I’m not sure that there’s low interest in Sabonis. We heard nothing about Utahs interest in JJJ or the Celts interest in Vuc, the trades just happened. Same deal when the Kings got Sabonis - all we kept hearing about was Ben Simmons. I think in general teams arent taking on long term money, but that’s more to do with the new CBA and the aprons vs Sabonis specifically.
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Well let me ask it differently. Why would Utah want JJJ over Sabonis? Their annual contracts are about the same and we would probably have been fine with just Hendricks and 2 FRPs. The truth is most teams probably see that VORP stat as totally inflated and based on a system where Sabonis was the hub. A system very few teams see as a path to consistent, long term winning
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Win Shares and VORP definitively say otherwise
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Can you answer Tizzy response then? Surely nba FO’s have those advance numbers that you have

Tizzy Flip said:
So do you have an opinion on why there’s such low interest in Sabonis outside of Toronto if he offers all of that? Every team has an army of people looking at all the numbers so unless they’re looking at different stats, they must be underweighting what you mentioned vs some combination of tangible and intangible elements.
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Tizzy Flip said:
Well let me ask it differently. Why would Utah want JJJ over Sabonis? Their annual contracts are about the same and we would probably have been fine with just Hendricks and 2 FRPs. The truth is most teams probably see that VORP stat as totally inflated and based on a system where Sabonis was the hub. A system very few teams see as a path to consistent, long term winning
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It’s possible you’re right, but we’re on the outside assuming.
 
Tizzy Flip said:
Totally speculation on my part, but if there was a ton of interest you would see a lot of stuff leaked out to make it a bidding war. Kind of like what you see with Giannis. Ainge seems to be that guy who will give ultimatums to other teams that if you leak anything, deal is off
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That’s not necessarily true all the time. There are front offices that work in silence.
 
TheMobb said:
That’s not necessarily true all the time. There are front offices that work in silence.
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No doubt. And when you do, you better be right since that mostly works when you’re dealing with 1 team and a very small group of people. Didn’t work so well for the Mavs and keeping their Luka intentions under wraps
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
Can you answer Tizzy response then? Surely nba FO’s have those advance numbers that you have
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No, I cannot. But if every NBA front office jumped off a cliff, would I jump off that cliff too?

My point is that consensus - if that's even the consensus - means basically nothing to me. I'm not going to go along with something I believe to be clearly wrong just because it's popular.
 
The_Jamal said:
Yeah, a little uneasy we're seemingly dismissing Poeltl, when we should be the team willing to just eat his contract for draft capital. The point of cap space for us is to make deals exactly like this in the first place; take on a bad contract for draft capital.

And Poeltl does have the massively added benefit that he's actually a good player if he figures out his health.

It's stupid that we seemingly have to jump through hoops to ever get anything done. Why are we the team taking a hit giving up by far the best player in the deal?
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I don't know, they'd probably be better off just getting Barrett but that better have 1 pick at least. The Raptors picks are going to be mid 1st at best anyway. They have Barnes and legit talent.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Domas is a clearly superior player than JJJ by any advanced metric, and he's on a smaller contract.

JJJ fetched 3 firsts and two young guys with potential in Clayton and Hendricks.

If we come away with one pick and Barrett I will have an absolute conniption.
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Domas isn't getting a JJJ type of deal. JJJ would definitely be rated higher by GM's. Domas has always been a good metrics guy but he is what he is at some point which is a really good add for a team that has pieces.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
No, I cannot. But if every NBA front office jumped off a cliff, would I jump off that cliff too?

My point is that consensus - if that's even the consensus - means basically nothing to me. I'm not going to go along with something I believe to be clearly wrong just because it's popular.
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Oh we get your POV. It’s why I don’t discuss politics, most people don’t even want to listen or try and understand the other point of view. I’m just asking if you can even fathom a reason or reasons why the consensus would think that way and why you’re the exception. But, its okay, don’t want to disrupt your line of thinking
 
Tizzy Flip said:
Oh we get your POV. It’s why I don’t discuss politics, most people don’t even want to listen or try and understand the other point of view. I’m just asking if you can even fathom a reason or reasons why the consensus would think that way and why you’re the exception. But, its okay, don’t want to disrupt your line of thinking
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You act as if I haven't been here reading the arguments against Sabonis for the past several years, or as if I have no theory of mind.
 
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