Is tanking "cheating"? Poll added

[JCTNKINGFAN]

I couldn’t decide which thread to put this in, thought about the Winning Culture thread, but I guess I’ll put it here, this was my thread before I took a break.

I have taken a break from the forum because I’m tired of all the crap that three little groups of negative posters, each with their own agenda put out. They monopolize the forum. I thought I’d check back in and see how it is going, but it is worse than ever, so I guess I am out again after this post.

Anyway, I think I am going to stir the pot big time with this little rant. Let’s just call tanking what it is. Let’s quit sugar coating, being PC, or just pussyfooting around it. Tanking is cheating. So, let’s just start calling it cheating.

Tanking is cheating fans and especially paying customers out of a quality product. Now, quality is relative, but fans who attend games paid good money for those tickets. Some customers may have purchased tickets in advance and only attend one or two games a year. Those fans should not have to watch a farce of a team in order to achieve the level of tanking advocated by some on here.

Tanking is cheating the team, the coaches, and players out of being able to play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Coaches should not have to coach where all other coaching decisions are secondary to finding a way to lose games. Players should not have to keep one eye on the scoreboard and worry about being pulled if their performance is at too high a level, so as to not win the game. Maybe we should just let the coach do his job of coaching without worrying about the damn tank.

But most importantly, tanking is cheating the system. The NBA constructed the lottery system and set the rules. The lottery was not setup with the sole purpose being that the less talented teams would deliberately lose in order to get an advantage over other teams who are likewise less talented. If the NBA did not consider it cheating the system, Cuban would not have got slapped with a $600K fine for just talking about it.

When did it become ok to cheat if the objective has enough value? If tanking was about losing games for organized gambling, what do you think the consequences would be?

Is it ok in everyday life to cheat any system if the goal is worthy and of high value? Is it only results that matter, not the methods to achieve the results? Is it ok for kids to cheat on their SATs? The stakes are pretty high there, getting into a good school, getting a scholarship, getting financial aid.

I’ve heard all the arguments about “everybody is doing it”. What are we, 14 years old? What did your parents tell you when you used that excuse as a 14-year-old? Something about a lake or a cliff I believe.

What if everybody was doing it? Where would it end? As each team noticed their “competitors” were doing more and more to tank, would they not increase their tanking methods? Would it just keep spiraling down and down until the games became a complete farce?

I hear the argument, “be realistic, we need that pick”. Well, maybe I am just an idealist, but I prefer honesty and character over that kind of realism. We hear a lot about a change in culture, which I equate with character. I read on one of the other forums that “culture” (which I equate with character) only matters when you are winning. Is that the way the tank crowd really feels?

I’m also tired of the hypocrisy of people claiming that they are only complaining about the vets minutes because it is taking away from the young guys minutes. Even with a limited roster at times due to injuries, the young guys are still getting plenty of minutes, yet there is still all the complaining. None of these young guys have ever played this many minutes. The coach needs to balance their minutes against the danger of over playing them and risking injuries. Again, let the coach do his job of coaching without worrying about the damn tank.

Now, I am sure that there will be at least one poster who will appoint himself spokesman and respond all swelled up with self-righteous indignation that I am twisting things and lying about what people are saying, but this is exactly what people are saying and is exactly what tanking is all about.

If you are going to be a hard-core tanker, then don’t be a hypocrite about it, own up to it and admit it is cheating and that is what you are advocating for.

 

[whozit]

I couldn’t decide which thread to put this in, thought about the Winning Culture thread, but I guess I’ll put it here, this was my thread before I took a break.

I have taken a break from the forum because I’m tired of all the crap that three little groups of negative posters, each with their own agenda put out. They monopolize the forum. I thought I’d check back in and see how it is going, but it is worse than ever, so I guess I am out again after this post.

Anyway, I think I am going to stir the pot big time with this little rant. Let’s just call tanking what it is. Let’s quit sugar coating, being PC, or just pussyfooting around it. Tanking is cheating. So, let’s just start calling it cheating.

Tanking is cheating fans and especially paying customers out of a quality product. Now, quality is relative, but fans who attend games paid good money for those tickets. Some customers may have purchased tickets in advance and only attend one or two games a year. Those fans should not have to watch a farce of a team in order to achieve the level of tanking advocated by some on here.

Tanking is cheating the team, the coaches, and players out of being able to play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Coaches should not have to coach where all other coaching decisions are secondary to finding a way to lose games. Players should not have to keep one eye on the scoreboard and worry about being pulled if their performance is at too high a level, so as to not win the game. Maybe we should just let the coach do his job of coaching without worrying about the damn tank.

But most importantly, tanking is cheating the system. The NBA constructed the lottery system and set the rules. The lottery was not setup with the sole purpose being that the less talented teams would deliberately lose in order to get an advantage over other teams who are likewise less talented. If the NBA did not consider it cheating the system, Cuban would not have got slapped with a $600K fine for just talking about it.

When did it become ok to cheat if the objective has enough value? If tanking was about losing games for organized gambling, what do you think the consequences would be?

Is it ok in everyday life to cheat any system if the goal is worthy and of high value? Is it only results that matter, not the methods to achieve the results? Is it ok for kids to cheat on their SATs? The stakes are pretty high there, getting into a good school, getting a scholarship, getting financial aid.

I’ve heard all the arguments about “everybody is doing it”. What are we, 14 years old? What did your parents tell you when you used that excuse as a 14-year-old? Something about a lake or a cliff I believe.

What if everybody was doing it? Where would it end? As each team noticed their “competitors” were doing more and more to tank, would they not increase their tanking methods? Would it just keep spiraling down and down until the games became a complete farce?

I hear the argument, “be realistic, we need that pick”. Well, maybe I am just an idealist, but I prefer honesty and character over that kind of realism. We hear a lot about a change in culture, which I equate with character. I read on one of the other forums that “culture” (which I equate with character) only matters when you are winning. Is that the way the tank crowd really feels?

I’m also tired of the hypocrisy of people claiming that they are only complaining about the vets minutes because it is taking away from the young guys minutes. Even with a limited roster at times due to injuries, the young guys are still getting plenty of minutes, yet there is still all the complaining. None of these young guys have ever played this many minutes. The coach needs to balance their minutes against the danger of over playing them and risking injuries. Again, let the coach do his job of coaching without worrying about the damn tank.

Now, I am sure that there will be at least one poster who will appoint himself spokesman and respond all swelled up with self-righteous indignation that I am twisting things and lying about what people are saying, but this is exactly what people are saying and is exactly what tanking is all about.

If you are going to be a hard-core tanker, then don’t be a hypocrite about it, own up to it and admit it is cheating and that is what you are advocating for.

I liked this post but I do think you went overboard on a couple things. I don't think most coaches go out there to lose. And I don't think most players have to worry about getting yanked if playing too well. There might be exceptions with the coaches.

And when is it tanking and when is it 'learning' like I think VF21 said? That part may be in the eye of the beholder.

The biggest thing that bothers me is the sanctioned ripping off of the customer.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The biggest thing that bothers me is the sanctioned ripping off of the customer.

This remains my biggest singular objection to the whole 'process' (NPI): I remember, whenever I would make the mistake of tuning into Napear's show, during the end of the Maloof era, and someone would call in to complain about it, he would have the audacity to bellow, "Well, they didn't raise ticket prices, DID THEY?!" And I would be sitting there, like, "**** you, *******, not raising ticket prices is beneath the minimum that they should have done!" It'd be different if these owners that want their teams to 'tank' offered their fans tickets at reduced prices, but damned if they aren't charging fans full price for games that they're not actively trying to win. And, of course, the loudest proponents of tanking among fan bases rarely end up being Season Ticket Holders... funny how that works? It always seems to be somebody who's not kicking out their own bread who's the first ones to say, "I think we should be losing games!"

If owners are going to charge fans full price for tickets during a rebuild/tank, they should at least offer concession vouchers, or shop credit at the team store, or free parking, or something.

 

[ovrush]

There's a ton of logical fallacies in that post, primary among them is faulty parallelism. Cheating on an SAT (where you are breaking established and clear rules) is not in any way similar to running a business in the most efficient manner within the framework of clear and established rules. No one here is espousing cheating, and to accuse them of that is intellectually lazy and to simplify, name calling those who see things a different way for the sake of avoiding the debate about the best way to run and develop a franchise. (I actually don't think anyone here is espousing the players giving less than their absolute best effort)

Also, I think there needs to be some serious introspection about the hostility of the win at all costs crew towards those who don't agree with them. That's a long post with the word cheat highlighted 10+ times in the thread dedicated to those who are tracking draft odds. If someone were to go into a game thread, which VF has explicitly said needs to be discourse free, and post something long winded and highlight derogatory name calling at the other side, I doubt the reaction would be as civil as it will be in this thread where you've essentially called everyone who disagrees with you dishonest, lacking integrity, and cheats. At this point the game threads have devolved into less than 10 posters generally because of how militantly things are enforced in them. Some posters even go on twitter to complain if that thread isn't just as they'd like the discourse to be on Carmichael Dave's twitter thread. I don't think people in this thread light pitchforks and tell those who disagree to go elsewhere, that this is their thread, etc. If they do, they're wrong.

Back to the point:

The NBA doesn't tell teams who to draft, and what free agents it has to sign. It doesn't tell free agent players where they have to play. Each franchise needs to find the best way to operate and be successful. Any company/organization being run needs to understand the environment it is functioning in, comprehend how it fits into that environment, and create the plan that best leads it to success. If you don't understand this, then your business will fail and you will go bankrupt. The nice thing about the NBA, (for owners and inept front office types) is that due to revenue sharing and a lack of a relegation policy, you can run a franchise with complete and total ineptitude (see the Kings), and you are pretty much safe and have an infinite amount of chances to get blindly lucky (beating ping pong ball odds, drafting a superstar after pick 3) and succeed instead of having to be competent to succeed. Because each team is generally free to determine how it operates, and because there are different pluses and minuses for each franchise (Sacramento will never have the free agent pull of the Lakers for example), if each team was forced to operate in the exact same way, it would limit the ability to succeed to only a few select teams.

Each franchise needs to balance the wants of its customers with their plan. If the Kings perpetually do their absolute best to win every game every season, and they are unable to lure a high end free agent to the team, and they never get a top 3 pick because they scratch and claw to around 30 wins each season, will their customers be happy with a perpetual 30 win team? Would the team lose too many of its customers cratering and winning 18 games for 2 or 3 seasons (ignoring the 2019 pick trade fiasco), in order to land a 100% star or two similar to what Philadelphia did and then become a playoff team and title contender for a decade? (again, we're speaking in generalities, top picks can bust but the averages indicate stars typically come from the top 3 picks, there are outliers to this rule, but those outliers are generally not statistically relevant). Each franchise has to make this decision.

I don't have access to the numbers, so I certainly could be wrong. I would guess that from a business standpoint (and we really should be considering each franchise as a business given the money involved), the better choice is to do everything you can to land a star or two to vault your franchise forward. Winning teams sell out and have access to more national tv games and more marketing and merchandise sales opportunities. 30 win teams generally don't. Is the statistical revenue difference over 3-5 years between an 18 win team and a 30 win team greater than the subsequent revenue difference between that same 30 win team and a 45-50 win team? The answer to this question should probably guide front offices on the path to take.

I almost think we should get away from the "tanking" verbiage. The Kings aren't really tanking, they just aren't very good. Now are there teams not playing their best players? Sure! Is this against the rules of the league? No! If the league wants to change the rules then it should. Are super teams against the rules? Is it fair that Kevin Durant takes less money to play with Golden State than to play in Sacramento or Oklahoma City? The advent of super teams has changed the equation dramatically as well. If realistically there's only 1 team that can win the title, that changes the value of assets (vet players vs future draft picks and cap space) in the same way that being in a housing recession would change the value of new construction housing. I don't think anyone would call a builder a cheat if during a housing recession they sat on their undeveloped land waiting for housing prices to appreciate to ensure his investment in that land was more profitable. There's no simple answer, and no best way to run a franchise because every franchise is different. Just because one franchise isn't doing things the way you would doesn't make them cheaters unless they literally are breaking the rules.

Just because one set of fans doesn't agree with doing things the way you do doesn't make that set of fans unethical, or hypocritical, or whatever name calling you think you need to go with in order to avoid debating those who disagree with you.

 

[whozit]

There's a ton of logical fallacies in that post, primary among them is faulty parallelism. Cheating on an SAT (where you are breaking established and clear rules) is not in any way similar to running a business in the most efficient manner within the framework of clear and established rules. No one here is espousing cheating, and to accuse them of that is intellectually lazy and to simplify, name calling those who see things a different way for the sake of avoiding the debate about the best way to run and develop a franchise. (I actually don't think anyone here is espousing the players giving less than their absolute best effort)

Also, I think there needs to be some serious introspection about the hostility of the win at all costs crew towards those who don't agree with them. That's a long post with the word cheat highlighted 10+ times in the thread dedicated to those who are tracking draft odds. If someone were to go into a game thread, which VF has explicitly said needs to be discourse free, and post something long winded and highlight derogatory name calling at the other side, I doubt the reaction would be as civil as it will be in this thread where you've essentially called everyone who disagrees with you dishonest, lacking integrity, and cheats. At this point the game threads have devolved into less than 10 posters generally because of how militantly things are enforced in them. Some posters even go on twitter to complain if that thread isn't just as they'd like the discourse to be on Carmichael Dave's twitter thread. I don't think people in this thread light pitchforks and tell those who disagree to go elsewhere, that this is their thread, etc. If they do, they're wrong.

Back to the point:

The NBA doesn't tell teams who to draft, and what free agents it has to sign. It doesn't tell free agent players where they have to play. Each franchise needs to find the best way to operate and be successful. Any company/organization being run needs to understand the environment it is functioning in, comprehend how it fits into that environment, and create the plan that best leads it to success. If you don't understand this, then your business will fail and you will go bankrupt. The nice thing about the NBA, (for owners and inept front office types) is that due to revenue sharing and a lack of a relegation policy, you can run a franchise with complete and total ineptitude (see the Kings), and you are pretty much safe and have an infinite amount of chances to get blindly lucky (beating ping pong ball odds, drafting a superstar after pick 3) and succeed instead of having to be competent to succeed. Because each team is generally free to determine how it operates, and because there are different pluses and minuses for each franchise (Sacramento will never have the free agent pull of the Lakers for example), if each team was forced to operate in the exact same way, it would limit the ability to succeed to only a few select teams.

Each franchise needs to balance the wants of its customers with their plan. If the Kings perpetually do their absolute best to win every game every season, and they are unable to lure a high end free agent to the team, and they never get a top 3 pick because they scratch and claw to around 30 wins each season, will their customers be happy with a perpetual 30 win team? Would the team lose too many of its customers cratering and winning 18 games for 2 or 3 seasons (ignoring the 2019 pick trade fiasco), in order to land a 100% star or two similar to what Philadelphia did and then become a playoff team and title contender for a decade? (again, we're speaking in generalities, top picks can bust but the averages indicate stars typically come from the top 3 picks, there are outliers to this rule, but those outliers are generally not statistically relevant). Each franchise has to make this decision.

I don't have access to the numbers, so I certainly could be wrong. I would guess that from a business standpoint (and we really should be considering each franchise as a business given the money involved), the better choice is to do everything you can to land a star or two to vault your franchise forward. Winning teams sell out and have access to more national tv games and more marketing and merchandise sales opportunities. 30 win teams generally don't. Is the statistical revenue difference over 3-5 years between an 18 win team and a 30 win team greater than the subsequent revenue difference between that same 30 win team and a 45-50 win team? The answer to this question should probably guide front offices on the path to take.

I almost think we should get away from the "tanking" verbiage. The Kings aren't really tanking, they just aren't very good. Now are there teams not playing their best players? Sure! Is this against the rules of the league? No! If the league wants to change the rules then it should. Are super teams against the rules? Is it fair that Kevin Durant takes less money to play with Golden State than to play in Sacramento or Oklahoma City? The advent of super teams has changed the equation dramatically as well. If realistically there's only 1 team that can win the title, that changes the value of assets (vet players vs future draft picks and cap space) in the same way that being in a housing recession would change the value of new construction housing. I don't think anyone would call a builder a cheat if during a housing recession they sat on their undeveloped land waiting for housing prices to appreciate to ensure his investment in that land was more profitable. There's no simple answer, and no best way to run a franchise because every franchise is different. Just because one franchise isn't doing things the way you would doesn't make them cheaters unless they literally are breaking the rules.

Just because one set of fans doesn't agree with doing things the way you do doesn't make that set of fans unethical, or hypocritical, or whatever name calling you think you need to go with in order to avoid debating those who disagree with you.

This is a well written and thought out post.

But the developer sitting on land is a bad example. Would you feel the same way if you had paid said developer to build your house but he decides to wait until the rest of the land gains value?

My biggest umbrage is the shafting of the paying customer. To me the tanking by teams that sold the illusion of being competitive is nothing more than bait and switch. That is dishonest.

While you may bristle at the term cheating and you do have a point, they aren't necessarily breaking any rules. But would you call what "management" is doing on the tanking teams good sportsmanship?

 

[whozit]

As a fan, advocating your team securing the best pick possible is completely understandable. The math is there for the probabilities. I just don't think the end always justifies the means.

 

[VF21]

Since the post above was reported, I'm going to put my two cents in and then hopefully let the discussion continue.

The post by JCTNKINGFAN above, while pretty forceful, is not calling out any particular poster or attacking their character. Is it pretty controversial? Well, it's pretty honest as far as his point of view is concerned but I don't think it breaks any rules of the forum. (If I'm wrong, review the rules and let me know. Honestly)

As far as the reference to the game thread discussion goes, this thread and the others on "tanking" are the options available to people who want to discuss that topic. The few positive or hopeful people who want to discuss the game have just one thread - the game thread - and it's only truly active for a couple of hours. Pretty different than these ongoing threads where the same points can be and are argued over and over and over again.

Anybody who has been a Kings fan for more than a few minutes knows there is a philosophical split in the fanbase right now. Carmichael Dave has anointed himself Tank Commander and he is pretty blatant about supporting tanking for the long-term good. Grant Napear, on the other hand, does not support tanking. He and Dave are at diametric ends on this issue and yet they continue to remain very good friends. If they can do it, then I think those of us who feel just as strongly on our respective sides of the coin can do it too.

It's not an easy time to be a Kings fan. But I still think it's a good time to be a Kings fan.

As far as the post JCTKINGFAN made, I wouldn't feel right deleting it and I'm certainly not going to close the thread. This is the elephant in the room and I truly believe we can talk about it without going totally out of our minds.

 

[VF21]

...Also, I think there needs to be some serious introspection about the hostility of the win at all costs crew towards those who don't agree with them...

Win at all costs is IMHO a mischaracterization of the people who aren't in favor of tanking. I don't want us to win at all costs. I want us to go out every night and try our best. I may not agree with the acquisition of a particular player but once he's here, he's a King and I'm going to root for him (with the possible exception of a few players over the years who have absolutely driven me insane). Again, I reference the game thread. Some people have actually complained about a player who was doing good. Why? Because he's a veteran and they don't want him around or he's a veteran and he's taking minutes from the kids, etc. There are tons of places for those comments, but I just don't see the active game thread as being one of them.

ONE THREAD. That's the only one with restrictions.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think it's funny this notion "win at all costs".

This team committed to a rebuild. We dumped a core player, brought new ones in - who we are invested in - and are trying to build something. Character, culture, and a commitment to the coach and system are all things that we've lacked during the tough times and we're trying to focus on that.

I of course bought into this to start the season and assumed like most that we'd struggle to win 25 games. What I could never have predicted was that teams like the Mavs and Grizzlies and Orlando would be so bad and blatantly trying to lose as they are. I also thought Phoenix and Atlanta would outplay us.

But the goal this season was never to throw it away. It was to build and learn as we go. I suspected that this team would have more games like the ones we've recently won where the shots didn't fall and we struggled to close. That we are closing is a sign of maturing and it will continue. When we lose a game like that I am just as thrilled as when we pull it out.

If we're down 20 I'm all about ok guys pack it again and try tomorrow night. But I will never, ever root for my team to miss a game winning shot at the buzzer.

 

[ovrush]

So to sum up the previous 2 posts:

- it's ok to have one thread where discourse is illeagal for one side, but not for the other side
- Characterizing one side as win at all costs is wrong, but the other side )who continuously say they want the players on the floor to try their best) as tanking is ok

Previous post above calling people who support lins all hypocritical

(these three in conjunction is awesome)

I also think it's pretty telling about where this board is that a post calling everyone who supports one side unethical hypocrites continuously in bold is not only ok but defended by the board admin, while if the same post was on the other foot that post would be deleted and the poster labeled a troll.

 

[whozit]

So it's to sum up the previous 2 posts:

- it's ok to have one thread where discourse is illeagal for one side, but not for the other side
- Characterizing one side as win at all costs is wrong, but the other side )who continuously say they want the players on the floor to try their best) as tanking is ok

Previous post above calling people who support lins all hypocritical

(these three in conjunction is awesome)

I also think it's pretty telling about where this board is that a post calling everyone who supports one side unethical hypocrites continuously in bold is not only ok but defended by the board admin, while if the same post was on the other foot that post would be deleted and the poster labeled a troll.

I seem to recall some pro-tank posts that pretty much implied anyone who didn't understand the math were pretty much ignorant. Perhaps those posts were deleted, I don't know.

Personally I think there is a lot more common ground than is acknowledged. Who do people want to see play and to see the development of particular players. I have seen numerous posts by pro-tank advocates applauding a win when the kids did it. And groans by the supposed anti-tank advocates when its been the vets. It's not as black and white as it's made out to be.

 

[ovrush]

I seem to recall some pro-tank posts that pretty much implied anyone who didn't understand the math were pretty much ignorant. Perhaps those posts were deleted, I don't know.

Personally I think there is a lot more common ground than is acknowledged. Who do people want to see play and to see the development of particular players. I have seen numerous posts by pro-tank advocates applauding a win when the kids did it. And groans by the supposed anti-tank advocates when its been the vets. It's not as black and white as it's made out to be.

I think there's a huge difference between pointing out mathematical facts and historical truths and calling everyone who supports lins cheaters and hypocrites.

Also, I agree on the common ground. I've generally stayed away from posting on it, but felt I needed to reply based on what was posted, and how some threads have been managed recently.

 

[ESP47]

This is a well written and thought out post.

But the developer sitting on land is a bad example. Would you feel the same way if you had paid said developer to build your house but he decides to wait until the rest of the land gains value?

My biggest umbrage is the shafting of the paying customer. To me the tanking by teams that sold the illusion of being competitive is nothing more than bait and switch. That is dishonest.

While you may bristle at the term cheating and you do have a point, they aren't necessarily breaking any rules. But would you call what "management" is doing on the tanking teams good sportsmanship?

All any of us want is for the team to be as good as they were during the Webber years. If the Kings had Simmons and Embiid and were sitting in the thick of it for the playoffs, the fans would be blowing the roof off of Golden 1 center with excitement this year. You wouldn't hear crickets chirping because they screwed the fans over by losing for a few years during the rebuild.

If you are a fan that knows basketball, then you knew full well that the Kings were going to be bad this year no matter what happened. If you bought a ticket a few months back for a game in March and you expected some barn burner of a competitive game, then that's on you because if you've been paying attention for the last decade plus....there hasn't been a whole lot of competitive basketball played in March by the Kings.

 

[whozit]

I think there's a huge difference between pointing out mathematical facts and historical truths and calling everyone who supports lins cheaters and hypocrites.

....

Is there? Implying someone is ignorant because despite the mathematical facts and historical truths that they still don't buy into the notion of tanking, I would put in the same category. They might just not like tanking, period. But matters not, I think both sides have their reasons.

 

[whozit]

All any of us want is for the team to be as good as they were during the Webber years. If the Kings had Simmons and Embiid and were sitting in the thick of it for the playoffs, the fans would be blowing the roof off of Golden 1 center with excitement this year. You wouldn't hear crickets chirping because they screwed the fans over by losing for a few years during the rebuild.

If you are a fan that knows basketball, then you knew full well that the Kings were going to be bad this year no matter what happened. If you bought a ticket a few months back for a game in March and you expected some barn burner of a competitive game, then that's on you because if you've been paying attention for the last decade plus....there hasn't been a whole lot of competitive basketball played in March by the Kings.

Sorry, I'm not a paying customer. The commute would kill me. But the season ticket holders, I have empathy for them.

 

[ovrush]

Is there? Implying someone is ignorant because despite the mathematical facts and historical truths that they still don't buy into the notion of tanking, I would put in the same category. They might just not like tanking, period. But matters not, I think both sides have their reasons.

What I've seen is people saying wins don't matter because you can miss on picks or there have been good picks lower which people will debate with mathematical facts and historical numbers. If people are outright saying people are stupid for not agreeing with tanking then they are wrong. I haven't seen that.

I have seen someone say directly that people who want lins are unethical and hypocritical. That sentiment is apparently supported by those who run the board based on the response.

 

[whozit]

What I've seen is people saying wins don't matter because you can miss on picks or there have been good picks lower which people will debate with mathematical facts and historical numbers. If people are outright saying people are stupid for not agreeing with tanking then they are wrong. I haven't seen that.

I have seen someone say directly that people who want lins are unethical and hypocritical. That sentiment is apparently supported by those who run the board based on the response.

That poster gave his rationale. Agree with it or not. I said earlier what I thought of it.

I haven't seen it outright but the ignorance thing has been implied. Or I read what I thought I read but maybe actually didn't read what the author meant.

 

[ESP47]

Sorry, I'm not a paying customer. The commute would kill me. But the season ticket holders, I have empathy for them.

Why? If you're a season ticket holder, you should be way more in tune with the team than the rest of us that go to a few games a year.

You would have to be living under a rock for the last 12 years if you are a season ticket holder and you're all the sudden shocked at what's going on right now.

But the thing is that the Kings aren't even really tanking. They're just developing a whole slew of first round draft picks from the last couple years. Even if the draft had even odds from top to bottom, I'd still want them to play the young guys the majority of the minutes because that's what's going to get the team back to winning quicker. ZBo backing down James Johnson in the paint doesn't help Justin Jackson make 3 pointers or help Fox finish in the lane.

 

[VF21]

All any of us want is for the team to be as good as they were during the Webber years. If the Kings had Simmons and Embiid and were sitting in the thick of it for the playoffs, the fans would be blowing the roof off of Golden 1 center with excitement this year. You wouldn't hear crickets chirping because they screwed the fans over by losing for a few years during the rebuild.

If you are a fan that knows basketball, then you knew full well that the Kings were going to be bad this year no matter what happened. If you bought a ticket a few months back for a game in March and you expected some barn burner of a competitive game, then that's on you because if you've been paying attention for the last decade plus....there hasn't been a whole lot of competitive basketball played in March by the Kings.

Maybe I'm missing something but from what I've heard from people who are able to go to the games, the fans are incredibly supportive of our current Kings. I've heard the comment about "playoff atmosphere" in describing G1C more than once lately. The people with their butts in the seats are loving what they're seeing from the kids and I cannot fathom anybody ever not cheering for Vince Effing Carter. Z-Bo may be the anomaly but for the most part, I don't think there are any crickets in the house.

 

[VF21]

Why? If you're a season ticket holder, you should be way more in tune with the team than the rest of us that go to a few games a year.

You would have to be living under a rock for the last 12 years if you are a season ticket holder and you're all the sudden shocked at what's going on right now.

But the thing is that the Kings aren't even really tanking. They're just developing a whole slew of first round draft picks from the last couple years. Even if the draft had even odds from top to bottom, I'd still want them to play the young guys the majority of the minutes because that's what's going to get the team back to winning quicker. ZBo backing down James Johnson in the paint doesn't help Justin Jackson make 3 pointers or help Fox finish in the lane.

Just one thing to remember: Season ticket holders have to pay for their tickets almost a year in advance. They buy their tickets on faith and hope, especially when things have been as bad as they have been over the past decade. I don't hear many of them hoping for a tank.

 

[ESP47]

Maybe I'm missing something but from what I've heard from people who are able to go to the games, the fans are incredibly supportive of our current Kings. I've heard the comment about "playoff atmosphere" in describing G1C more than once lately. The people with their butts in the seats are loving what they're seeing from the kids and I cannot fathom anybody ever not cheering for Vince Effing Carter. Z-Bo may be the anomaly but for the most part, I don't think there are any crickets in the house.

I didn't mean they were chirping right now. I may not have worded it correctly. I meant they wouldn't be chirping right now if hypothetically we had won 18 games a year for a few years in a row to be able to land Simmons and Embiid. People are saying that the team can't cheat their ticket holders out of money by not putting the best team possible out there but I'm saying that the fans just want to see playoff basketball and regular season winning basketball more than a few wins in March in another lost season.

If anything we've all been cheated out of many years of competitive basketball due to never really tanking correctly.

 

[VF21]

I didn't mean they were chirping right now. I may not have worded it correctly. I meant they wouldn't be chirping right now if hypothetically we had won 18 games a year for a few years in a row to be able to land Simmons and Embiid. People are saying that the team can't cheat their ticket holders out of money by not putting the best team possible out there but I'm saying that the fans just want to see playoff basketball and regular season winning basketball more than a few wins in March in another lost season.

If anything we've all been cheated out of many years of competitive basketball due to never really tanking correctly.

I agree and "like" your first paragraph. For obvious reasons, I do not "like" your second.

 

[ESP47]

Just one thing to remember: Season ticket holders have to pay for their tickets almost a year in advance. They buy their tickets on faith and hope, especially when things have been as bad as they have been over the past decade. I don't hear many of them hoping for a tank.

Of course they don't buy their tickets hoping for the tank but they are delusional if they think they're buying season tickets on the notion that there's going to be a good chance that the Kings are competing for the playoffs by time they get their seats. Losing a few games in March so your season tickets may possibly be exponentially more exciting to have the next couple years is a pretty good trade off if you ask me.

The only time I felt bad for them was last year when Cousins was traded and the Kings were within striking distance of the playoffs. Arguments for and against the trade can be made on both sides but that was messed up for the ticket holders because they really thought one thing was going to happen and then bam, it all changed.

 

[VF21]

One thing I learned from some of the STH I know is that while the playoffs are a LOT of fun, they buy their tickets because they enjoy being entertained during the year. They love the fun of going to a Kings game, mixing with other like-minded Kings fans, and in general supporting their team. That's back this year in a big way. Add in the new car smell of G1C and all the incredible food options now available, and you have a good evening's entertainment when you're watching a competitive game by a bunch of players who are giving it their all, win or lose.

I do agree entirely about the Cousins fiasco. I know of at least one STH who gave away his tickets for the rest of the season when DMC was traded.

I just want us all to make it through this season and get this place back to where it used to be. Kings fans are better than what we've been reduced to. We're all crazy for the most part, but it's a fun kind of crazy. It's a college game atmosphere kind of crazy and I'm selfish enough to want it back. I believe we're headed in that direction.

 

[whozit]

Why? If you're a season ticket holder, you should be way more in tune with the team than the rest of us that go to a few games a year.

You would have to be living under a rock for the last 12 years if you are a season ticket holder and you're all the sudden shocked at what's going on right now.

But the thing is that the Kings aren't even really tanking. They're just developing a whole slew of first round draft picks from the last couple years. Even if the draft had even odds from top to bottom, I'd still want them to play the young guys the majority of the minutes because that's what's going to get the team back to winning quicker. ZBo backing down James Johnson in the paint doesn't help Justin Jackson make 3 pointers or help Fox finish in the lane.

I'm talking in general not just Kings season ticket holders.

This year it seemed it started earlier, blatant and much more widespread than before. It can't be good for the league or for viewership in general.

 

[gunks]

Whew..... This thread has certainly taken a turn.

It'll suck to not have a pick next year, but at least everything will go back to normal and we can all have our spats over players, not wins or losses!

 

[The Effort Police]

Whew..... This thread has certainly taken a turn.

It'll suck to not have a pick next year, but at least everything will go back to normal and we can all have our spats over players, not wins or losses!

I don't know man, I'm not looking forward to having even more young bigs ride the pine for Zbo as we flounder our way into giving up a high pick to the Celtics. Normal for us is still pretty ***, and promises to be *** for the foreseeable future.

 

[sactowndog]

I couldn’t decide which thread to put this in, thought about the Winning Culture thread, but I guess I’ll put it here, this was my thread before I took a break.

I have taken a break from the forum because I’m tired of all the crap that three little groups of negative posters, each with their own agenda put out. They monopolize the forum. I thought I’d check back in and see how it is going, but it is worse than ever, so I guess I am out again after this post.

Anyway, I think I am going to stir the pot big time with this little rant. Let’s just call tanking what it is. Let’s quit sugar coating, being PC, or just pussyfooting around it. Tanking is cheating. So, let’s just start calling it cheating.

Tanking is cheating fans and especially paying customers out of a quality product. Now, quality is relative, but fans who attend games paid good money for those tickets. Some customers may have purchased tickets in advance and only attend one or two games a year. Those fans should not have to watch a farce of a team in order to achieve the level of tanking advocated by some on here.

Tanking is cheating the team, the coaches, and players out of being able to play the game the way it is supposed to be played. Coaches should not have to coach where all other coaching decisions are secondary to finding a way to lose games. Players should not have to keep one eye on the scoreboard and worry about being pulled if their performance is at too high a level, so as to not win the game. Maybe we should just let the coach do his job of coaching without worrying about the damn tank.

But most importantly, tanking is cheating the system. The NBA constructed the lottery system and set the rules. The lottery was not setup with the sole purpose being that the less talented teams would deliberately lose in order to get an advantage over other teams who are likewise less talented. If the NBA did not consider it cheating the system, Cuban would not have got slapped with a $600K fine for just talking about it.

When did it become ok to cheat if the objective has enough value? If tanking was about losing games for organized gambling, what do you think the consequences would be?

Is it ok in everyday life to cheat any system if the goal is worthy and of high value? Is it only results that matter, not the methods to achieve the results? Is it ok for kids to cheat on their SATs? The stakes are pretty high there, getting into a good school, getting a scholarship, getting financial aid.

I’ve heard all the arguments about “everybody is doing it”. What are we, 14 years old? What did your parents tell you when you used that excuse as a 14-year-old? Something about a lake or a cliff I believe.

What if everybody was doing it? Where would it end? As each team noticed their “competitors” were doing more and more to tank, would they not increase their tanking methods? Would it just keep spiraling down and down until the games became a complete farce?

I hear the argument, “be realistic, we need that pick”. Well, maybe I am just an idealist, but I prefer honesty and character over that kind of realism. We hear a lot about a change in culture, which I equate with character. I read on one of the other forums that “culture” (which I equate with character) only matters when you are winning. Is that the way the tank crowd really feels?

I’m also tired of the hypocrisy of people claiming that they are only complaining about the vets minutes because it is taking away from the young guys minutes. Even with a limited roster at times due to injuries, the young guys are still getting plenty of minutes, yet there is still all the complaining. None of these young guys have ever played this many minutes. The coach needs to balance their minutes against the danger of over playing them and risking injuries. Again, let the coach do his job of coaching without worrying about the damn tank.

Now, I am sure that there will be at least one poster who will appoint himself spokesman and respond all swelled up with self-righteous indignation that I am twisting things and lying about what people are saying, but this is exactly what people are saying and is exactly what tanking is all about.

If you are going to be a hard-core tanker, then don’t be a hypocrite about it, own up to it and admit it is cheating and that is what you are advocating for.

I personally find this post insulting and most likely will not be returning to this board without an apology.

Tanking is well established practice in the NBA since the 80’s given the nature of the game and impact of a single player. The contract structure of the game further reinforces the importance of getting high draft picks. You may not like the math but most of us have made factual posts about the impact of position in the draft and you make a holier than thou comment in response.

Inappropriate and should have been sanctioned.

 

[Andriod_KiNg]

Sad thing this place into North Korea, can’t bring up valid questions in other threads or supreme leader will be offended.

 

[King-Da-Yah]

Sad thing this place into North Korea, can’t bring up valid questions in other threads or supreme leader will be offended.

Did you just call VF Kim Jong Un?!?!?!

There is no denying this draft is stacked, but what are we to do? Tell Fox NOT to exploit defenders and cooly knock down HUGE shots? Tell Willie to let Young shoot?

Nobody is out tanking MEM-ORL-ATL-DAL...its just not possible. I will admit I used to be pro-tank, the primary reason being I wanted Cousins replaced.

You don’t get generational type big men every day or every draft. But this is folly, we can’t intentionally throw games. Let’s see where it gets those aforementioned teams...

Spoiler alert: they will still suck, and Ayton, Doncic, Bagley, Porter, Bamba, Jackson Jr., and Trae Young will be stuck with shameless, cultureless teams...sucks for them.

Everything I am seeing from this young Kings team screams of the fact that whoever is lucky enough to be drafted by them is coming to a ****** solid up and coming team.

Trust the process my friends. We are not owned by the Maloofs, and we don’t have a new head coach every year. Things are looking up. Our time will come, GO KINGS!