Rondo isn't a loser...and he has the hardware to prove it.
Is our Rondo THE Rondo? (split)
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Rondo isn't a loser...and he has the hardware to prove it.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
He WAS a winner...as of late, he hasn't proven anything. He's proven to implode in Dallas and here he is just coasting, IMO. I also remember once upon a time he was more than a capable defender. Now? I watch him gamble for steals over and over again with minimal success.
Perhaps not, but that 2008 Rondo is long gone.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
08-09: 11.9 ppg, 8.2 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.7 spg
15-16: 11.7 ppg, 11.6 apg, 6.4 rpg, 1.9 spg
Counting stats are cool.
Weak sauce.
Bosnian Diehard
Starter
So what's your argument based on?
King Baller
All-Star
Well to be honest Kevin Garnett,Paul Pierce. Ray Allen and Tony Allen are not playing with Sacramento Rondo
lawlman91
Starter
I like his hustle and effort but based on our talent, I would rather have a PG with Collison's skill set than Rondo's skill set.
Rondo can:
- Make really good outlet passes
- Make on-point passes to Belinelli
- Really, really good at the pick and roll
- Cuts well off of a Cousins post-up
Rondo has difficulty:
- With post entry passes. The Kings sometimes give up post up opportunities because Rondo's man is too far down. Sometimes Cousins ends up in awkward positions when the post entry succeeds
- Being a good passing option out of the post. Cousins gets double teamed more often, and Rondo, if he receives a post kick-out, will either drive or reset the play with less time on the shot clock. Since he drives, the defense can sink down and anticipate the drive, Rondo 3pt shot, or a reset for a rushed play
- With isolation scoring
Collison can:
- Make decent outlet passes. Sometimes, they are Rondo-esque
- Makes good passes to Belinelli
- Knows how to operate with Cousins on the pick and pop on the same level as Rondo, but less so on the pick and roll
- Cuts well off of a Cousins post-up
- Score off of an isolation
- Consistently make post entry passes
- Is a good passing option out of the post
Collison has difficulty:
- With end-game situations, but my source is one game. If anyone can point out other games that slipped my mind that would be great
- With switching and guarding a post-up
Then again, I would rather have a PG that's a bit taller so that we don't get caught in all of this switching business, or at least so that when we do switch, it's not as painful. 6'2+, or even 6'3+? Would be nice.
Rondo can:
- Make really good outlet passes
- Make on-point passes to Belinelli
- Really, really good at the pick and roll
- Cuts well off of a Cousins post-up
Rondo has difficulty:
- With post entry passes. The Kings sometimes give up post up opportunities because Rondo's man is too far down. Sometimes Cousins ends up in awkward positions when the post entry succeeds
- Being a good passing option out of the post. Cousins gets double teamed more often, and Rondo, if he receives a post kick-out, will either drive or reset the play with less time on the shot clock. Since he drives, the defense can sink down and anticipate the drive, Rondo 3pt shot, or a reset for a rushed play
- With isolation scoring
Collison can:
- Make decent outlet passes. Sometimes, they are Rondo-esque
- Makes good passes to Belinelli
- Knows how to operate with Cousins on the pick and pop on the same level as Rondo, but less so on the pick and roll
- Cuts well off of a Cousins post-up
- Score off of an isolation
- Consistently make post entry passes
- Is a good passing option out of the post
Collison has difficulty:
- With end-game situations, but my source is one game. If anyone can point out other games that slipped my mind that would be great
- With switching and guarding a post-up
Then again, I would rather have a PG that's a bit taller so that we don't get caught in all of this switching business, or at least so that when we do switch, it's not as painful. 6'2+, or even 6'3+? Would be nice.
KingsFanGER
Starter
The difference is on the defensive end. But like with our whole roster this is mainly an effort thing. I saw Rondo play very good defense this season. But he has the tendency to sag off his man to play the passing lanes and tries to ochestrate our team defense more than to focus on just getting into the face of his own man.
IfAt1st
Starter
Really?
After Collison has been exposed the past handful of games as utterly incapable of running this team, you would rather have him?
The offense has grinded to a halt the majority of possessions that Collison has controlled the ball for the four or 5 games before the Warriors. Lost lead after lead IIRC.
After the past 2 weeks, I'd think everyone would be thinking "Damn, are we lucky we don't have to rely on Collison this year, or we'd be screwed."
What team were you watching the past 2 weeks?
BTW - he single-handedly cost the team at least 2 games already this year, with his 2 airballs in the last 35 seconds of 2OT vs Dallas, and also the bobbled pass on the last possession sometime in December.
Agreed...I think we are seeing some of the reasons teams have traded Collison. He's been disappointing this year.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Can say the exact same thing for Rondo his constant gambling on defense and not playing any defense (same crap he was doing in the P/O with Dallas), silly turnovers there's a reason why he was traded also. I'd still take what DC brings at a cheap contract than give Rondo 10+ million. Darren is being put in positions where he's likely to fail to accommodate Karls silly 2 PG lineup and cause Rondo is not versatile and can only play one way
lawlman91
Starter
MizzouKing
Starter
I like Collison, and he can be really great some nights, but when I saw that last lakers game I thought maybe they had already traded him but that he'd just forgot to switch uniforms. He was awful! Overall, though, I think he adds a lot of value. As a previous poster said, he's just had a bad week or two.
SacTownGrantFan
Bench
How much of Rondo's poor defense has to do with his past major injury...if any?
It's too bad because despite the turnovers, he has been pretty excellent offensively.
It's too bad because despite the turnovers, he has been pretty excellent offensively.
Most of it, no. Pay attention to him. He just stands around watching a lot. He gets lost like James Harden on many plays where he's just covering absolutely no one.
The problem is that you'll see McLemore running out to the wide open 3 point shooter as they're splashing one in and you're like dammit Ben, stay home on your man! Then you rewind it and realize that Rondo was standing at the elbow while his man ran baseline wide open. So Ben had to follow the PG to make sure he didn't get an easy bucket 2ft from the rim. As Ben helps down on the PG, they kick it out to the wide open SG for 3 and it looks like Ben just wasn't paying attention. In reality Rondo just stood there not paying attention while Ben was covering 2 guys at once.
It happens a few times every game and costs us a ton.
The long and short of it is that Rondo can't play off the ball.
Collison played well when paired with Chris Paul because both guys can play the PG role and both guys can (somewhat) play the SG role, hitting open shots, being aggressive offensively etc.
With Rondo, Collison is pretty much forced to play a SG role whenever they are paired together. Rondo is very ball dominant and a poor outside shooter so he's not as versatile a player.
When Collison has started his assist totals have been nearly double what they are when he's been a reserve. Some of that is that he averages more minutes in his starts than in games where he's come off the bench but I think it's more about (1) his mindset as a PG vs being a bench scorer and (2) just having the ball in his hands more. The other interesting part is that his scoring is actually LOWER as a starter and his usage rate is actually slightly LOWER.
We still have the Darren Collison from last season. The guy who pushed the ball up the floor and initiated the offense quickly with a pass. It's just that he's being asked to play a different role on most nights and in any lineup where he's paired with Rondo, who is a very different PG.
SacKings384
Starter
And this is why I believe that if we are going to try and keep ROndo, we need to move Collison. 2 PG lineups have not worked in history and do not work today.
Nothing that hasn't been said already on the forum. On/Off court numbers say we're 5 points better with him off than on defensively. Offense is about even. He's ranked 22nd for PG's in RPM. Despite it being an improvement for him, 49% TS still hurts an offense when you take 11 shots a game.
Numbers aside, nobody can tell me they see the same Rondo defensively now as they did back then. He's lost a step or 2 and doesn't play with that same intensity defensively that gave him a rep as one of the best PG defenders in the league.
Counting stats just don't really measure anything except volume. I'm not comparing the two, but if you made Ben the focal point of the offense and committed to getting him 15 shots a game and 35+ minutes, he'd probably give a counting stat line of 18 PPG, 2-3 APG and 3-4 RPG. That's not Ben magically becoming a better player, it's him getting the volume to put up a better look line. So don't post arbitrary stat lines from a player as if they actually mean anything with regards to how they contribute to wins.
All that said, I don't hate the Rondo pairing with Cousins at all and have already eaten crow on his performance with us thus far. I didn't think he'd get close to the level he's at now. But if those are the two guys we want to go to battle with, the team needs to be constructed to fit their needs. I.E, getting rid of Rudy Gay.
Kingsgurl
Starter
That's where things start to get tricky....... when you are actually trying to measure how something FEELS and looks versus numbers on a page. It's hard to quantify that, though it will eventually show in wins, is indeed starting to. There is a connection between Rondo and Boogie and I am very much enjoying their attempt to resurrect this franchise
Exactly. And I was hoping we'd trade Darren in the off-season for this reason. Not because I don't like him, and I've posted elsewhere that the injury insurance alone of having a backup PG who can produce starter quality minutes in stretches is invaluable, but because he may be a poor fit as a backup on this team as presently constructed and his trade value is only going to go down from where it was at the end of last season. We could have signed Andre Miller for cheap to be our 10-15 min a night backup PG and cashed in Darren's emergence as a solid starting PG for badly needed depth on the wing or at PF. Even so, Darren has been giving us solid minutes when he isn't forced into a dual PG lineup with Rondo. Severely limiting his minutes by playing him only at PG when Rondo is on the bench isn't really making the best use of his talents, but it may be what we need to do to start playing with consistency.
Even if that's your thing, you can't tell me this Rondo looks like the 2008-2010 Rondo on the defensive end. Which is a big reason why he was so highly regarded in addition to his playmaking ability (which seems to have come back after a 2 year hiatus). That's what started this discussion in the first place; this Rondo now isn't what he was in Boston years. Which is fine, as I think he's still a player who can contribute in a big way to a playoff team, but posting counting stat lines as some sort of "proof" is just an easy cop-out.
IfAt1st
Starter
I'll go ahead and say it:
Despite what our eyes have shown us (that have seen Rondo's lackadaisical effort on D this year), I think he's a better defender than he has shown us so far.
I think the main players didn't want to win that much earlier, and are just starting to want to rack up wins.
I think Rondo plays better when the pressure increases, as opposed to most Kings who get much worse with pressure (Collison the main example).
I think by the time the playoffs roll around, Rondo will make many people here surprised at how he isn't as big of liability on defense as he is letting on so far this year.
(Just like he's shown that he's a better shooter than he had let on, and a better FT shooter when they count)
Despite what our eyes have shown us (that have seen Rondo's lackadaisical effort on D this year), I think he's a better defender than he has shown us so far.
I think the main players didn't want to win that much earlier, and are just starting to want to rack up wins.
I think Rondo plays better when the pressure increases, as opposed to most Kings who get much worse with pressure (Collison the main example).
I think by the time the playoffs roll around, Rondo will make many people here surprised at how he isn't as big of liability on defense as he is letting on so far this year.
(Just like he's shown that he's a better shooter than he had let on, and a better FT shooter when they count)
bajaden
Hall of Famer
One can always point out what a player does well, but to be fair you have to point out what he doesn't do as well. Collison over dribbles the ball. He's a clock user. Yes, he can have six assists, but if you start counting the times he doesn't pass the ball, he doesn't seem nearly as efficient. I'm biased because I like ball movement and hate total isolation play. I think there's a place for isolation plays, but I hate when its the the entire offense. Too easy to defend. Now to Rondo. First, I really love watching him play, and he puts up great numbers. That said, none of that matters if at the end of the day, we lose the game. However, I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I've posted these numbers a couple of times already, but let me post them again because I think they're relevant.
Defensively:
Rondo on the floor: 109.5 ppg allowed per 100 possessions.
Rondo off the floor: 102.9 ppg allowed per 100 possessions.
So were seven points better defensively with Rondo off the floor. That mi amigo's, is a pretty big difference. But, perhaps he makes up for it offensively.
Rondo on the floor: 105.1 ppg scored per 100 possessions.
Rondo off the floor: 104.8 ppg scored per 100 possessions.
Hmmm! perhaps not! There's only three tenths of a point difference between Rondo being on the floor and off the floor. So despite his great numbers, and the fact that he passes the eye test; statistically, he doesn't make that big a difference on offense. As I said earlier, I like Rondo, and I'm not about to make him the goat for our losses. But something isn't working as well as it should. One thing that can't be argued is that Rondo is a liability on defense. He doesn't pass the eye test, and as you can see the stats bear that out. Simple math tells you that if the other team is scoring more points than we are when Rondo is on the floor, we lose! Now I know it's not that simple, but it is something that needs to looked at.
It should be obvious to everyone, that were losing games because we can't defend anyone for any length of time. And Rondo is certainly part of that problem. When our big's get into foul trouble, its usually because of a defensive breakdown on the perimeter. If I had to pick out the players that I think are our best defenders they would be, Cousins, Koufos, Cauley-Stein, Acy, Casspi, Curry and Anderson. Some are very good, and all of them give effort. When the season started, only two of them were starters. Cousins and Koufos, or Cousins and WCS. Curry, Anderson, Acy, and to some extent, WCS get somewhat limited, to very limited minutes.
Unfortunately, Cousins aside, most of our best offensive players, Rondo, Collison, Gay, Belinelli and McLemore, are either poor defenders, or don't give good effort on a consistent basis. And unfortunately, almost all of them get the bulk of the minutes. So that in a nutshell, at least on the surface, explains why our defense is so poor. I'm not sure how you rectify that with the current roster, unless Karl is fed up enough with the results, that he gives more minutes to players that will bust their butts on defense. Some of you may disagree with my choices on who does or doesn't play good defense, and that's fine. This is just my personal opinion. I know it's convenient to blame the coach for defensive breakdowns, but when there's a switch on a pick and roll, and the Kings end up with two players guarding the same player, I'd bet my house that Karl didn't draw it up that way.
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