Is next season going to be a tank year?
- Thread starter VF21
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To elaborate, I see Carmichael Dave defined "tanking" on Twitter today as "not putting your best team on the floor at any point during the season for reasons other than legit injury." In terms of the "tanking" that comes up toward the end of the season, with draft considerations driving lineup decisions, I think this is the most objectionable form.
I would guess, though, VF, that you something more season-wide in mind. Something like "not trying to acquire the best players available" or "not trying to win the most games this season." Which may sound bad. But what if you say "not acquiring short term veterans in favor of developing longer-term youth"? That doesn't sound as bad.
I would guess, though, VF, that you something more season-wide in mind. Something like "not trying to acquire the best players available" or "not trying to win the most games this season." Which may sound bad. But what if you say "not acquiring short term veterans in favor of developing longer-term youth"? That doesn't sound as bad.
kingjatt made a comment in the Rudy Gay thread about next season probably being a tank year. I started this thread so the "tank" discussion wouldn't pollute multiple threads for the whole off-season. 
I think you guys should figure out what that means. My answer is "Hell no!" How can you even think about tossing another year down the drain at this point?????
I think you guys should figure out what that means. My answer is "Hell no!" How can you even think about tossing another year down the drain at this point?????
I'm not sure you could convince coach Joerger to sit vets with regularity for a whole season. I do think that he'll experiment at times and give rookies some chances so we'll see some line-ups that look tankish. If at the end of the year we're in a similar spot as this one we will probably more of the rookies/younguns so it will look like tanking.
Depends on the draft and free agency.
If we can sign a nice young vet (like Shabazz Mohammed) to fill in at SF until the Lottery Rookie SF is ready and retain either Lawson or DC to be the starting PG until our Lottery Rookie PG is ready, I think we can surprise a lot of people.
This team has heart and hustle and never quit. I think Buddy is going to step up and be a 18-20pts per game scorer for us. I expect WCS, Skal and Papa to progress quickly too. The vets (KK, Temple, Tolliver) know their roles too.
I think we can make a run at 36-40 wins next season.
If we can sign a nice young vet (like Shabazz Mohammed) to fill in at SF until the Lottery Rookie SF is ready and retain either Lawson or DC to be the starting PG until our Lottery Rookie PG is ready, I think we can surprise a lot of people.
This team has heart and hustle and never quit. I think Buddy is going to step up and be a 18-20pts per game scorer for us. I expect WCS, Skal and Papa to progress quickly too. The vets (KK, Temple, Tolliver) know their roles too.
I think we can make a run at 36-40 wins next season.
Well of course we should be planing the tank now, you can't leave these things to chance! Since the whole point to playing each season seems to be to get the best pick possible we ought to be using BAD picks in 2017 in order to help set up a better lottery position for 2018, unless of course we could get ahead of the curve planning for a massive 2019 tank! STRATEGY!
Tank year? I doubt it.
But it should be a growth year.
The Kings should hold on to the vets they have under contract and sign at least one veteran PG (Collison, Lawson or someone else) but otherwise let the young guys play.
There's no need to bring in starting quality vets when the young core is years from their primes. Instead you save caproom and use it to take on other team's bad contracts in exchange for future picks or to acquire a promising young player as part of the package.
The Kings will very likely be back in the lottery next season but by then the goal should hopefully be to add another solid piece to a young team on the rise and looking to compete for a playoff spot the next season.
But it should be a growth year.
The Kings should hold on to the vets they have under contract and sign at least one veteran PG (Collison, Lawson or someone else) but otherwise let the young guys play.
There's no need to bring in starting quality vets when the young core is years from their primes. Instead you save caproom and use it to take on other team's bad contracts in exchange for future picks or to acquire a promising young player as part of the package.
The Kings will very likely be back in the lottery next season but by then the goal should hopefully be to add another solid piece to a young team on the rise and looking to compete for a playoff spot the next season.
I know this was a joke but the reality is that the Kings won't have their 2019 draft pick. The goal has to be to have a successful draft this season and (assuming they are a lottery team again next year) to have another successful draft so that they can be as good as possible in 2019 to limit the pain of trading that pick to Philly.
He shouldn't sit them with regularity, but how much veteran is too much? If Temple gets more minutes next year than Buddy/Malachi, if Tolliver gets more minutes than Skal, and Koufos gets more minutes than WCS/Papa, then I can't think of anything worse for our rebuild. We know Joerger's coaching habits by now.
I forgot about loosing the 2019 pick but that would dovetail perfectly into a GINORMOUS tank for a 2020 pick!
Ok sarcasm and satire aside, I have just never been as sold on tanking and the draft as a plan A for team building. I get the value of picks but it seems to me that at this point adding more young players beyond this years picks might not be as useful as development/patience and bringing in the RIGHT guys to round out the roster through FA's and trades. There simply is such a thing as having too many young talented kids on a roster. Team and team player development require time, maturity and right fit, with out those factors you get the Philly mess, no vet presence to guide growth and teach players through example as well as coaching. To my way of thinking having 5 kids starting is more a recipe for chaos than development.
Ok sarcasm and satire aside, I have just never been as sold on tanking and the draft as a plan A for team building. I get the value of picks but it seems to me that at this point adding more young players beyond this years picks might not be as useful as development/patience and bringing in the RIGHT guys to round out the roster through FA's and trades. There simply is such a thing as having too many young talented kids on a roster. Team and team player development require time, maturity and right fit, with out those factors you get the Philly mess, no vet presence to guide growth and teach players through example as well as coaching. To my way of thinking having 5 kids starting is more a recipe for chaos than development.
Next season will be rough.
But....If some of the kids start showing allstar-ish potential, it'll be fun to watch them develop.
Hield, Skal, WCS, Papa G, Mali, and whoever we draft..... That's a core that'll lose a ton of games, but could also flash some intriguing potential.
Add in the fact that Joerger and Co have done an excellent job developing the kids, I'll tune in.
It'll be less a dumpster fire and more of a "hmmm, what's cooking?" kind of fire.
Of course Vivek could do something fool like trade all our young assets for Melo. You never know with the goblin.
But....If some of the kids start showing allstar-ish potential, it'll be fun to watch them develop.
Hield, Skal, WCS, Papa G, Mali, and whoever we draft..... That's a core that'll lose a ton of games, but could also flash some intriguing potential.
Add in the fact that Joerger and Co have done an excellent job developing the kids, I'll tune in.
It'll be less a dumpster fire and more of a "hmmm, what's cooking?" kind of fire.
Of course Vivek could do something fool like trade all our young assets for Melo. You never know with the goblin.
There is no prohibition, however, against the Kings somehow acquiring a draft pick or two between now and then.
But it's also worth noting that if Papagiannis, Hield, Richardson and Labissiere all develop into good players they will all be restricted free agents at the same time.
The best case scenario might be Buddy and Malachi both making big strides and then trading one of them for a 2019 pick.
Let me preface this by saying I want the kings back in the playoffs just as much as everyone else.
We could sugarcoat it and refuse to use the word tank because it sounds so ugly and because of the doom and gloom of the last decade but winning 30 games again next year would be nothing short of a disaster. The day of the Cousins trade should have been the start of an all out tank, its just the best way to take advantage of the rules that have been put in place(see successful organizations like dallas...) but we even managed to screw that up.
Of course we should have a positive vibe and encourage hard play and development, the coach should be instructed to win at all costs as always. But Vlade better make sure we aren't in the 8-10 range again next year. That means not signing or retaining any vets to take away starters minutes from a young prospect, strictly bench vets only sans maybe a floor general to keep things organized. We need at least one blue chip prospect and likely more, I am afraid of Vlade unloading and going all in 2019 when IMO we still wont be ready, all because of his playoff* promise.
NO MORE SHORT TERM PLANS FROM GMs TRYING TO SAVE THEIR JOBS.
Miracles CAN happen and we could be a 45-50+ win team next year but honestly what are the odds of that with the up and coming talented rosters out here in the west. Rookie and 2 year player led teams are not leading teams to the playoffs and we do not have the assets to compete yet if you truly look at the landscape of the west and are honest about the situation.
The clippers truly tried for about 5-7 minutes yesterday and blew our doors off by 20. These guys have a long long way to go before they can lead us to the playoffs (if ever).
Not having a pick in 2019 is going to suck but as we have seen with other perpetual cellar dwellers it takes multiple top 5 lotto picks to get out of hell and is proven to be the fastest way out of it, even though it still may take 3-5 years of losing to land 2 franchise level guys, thats a small price to pay, winning in the NBA is hard.
My opinion is that we tank out until 2021-2022, hopefully land two all-star, franchise level guys in that timeframe as well as develop what we have, some of the top teams in the west now flame out and we jump in around 2023 to take their place for a decade. Pay the price now and reap the benefits for possibly a decade or longer. In the meantime we do everything we can to develop what we have but if the players we have are not cutting it we move on. Oh and absolutely do not miss on top draft picks, if you do miss don't double down and sell all of the assets for a patchwork team like we have every year in the Vivek era.
With the current rules tanking is the most tried and true way out of basketball hell.
We have been BS'ing without a clear direction for a decade plus, its time to be real about our situation and take decisive action.
I know the diehards will hate this opinion but I am super freakin tired of this string of 30 win seasons, the only 30 win season that i want to see happen again should be one the precedes a 50 win season led by young superstars.
We could sugarcoat it and refuse to use the word tank because it sounds so ugly and because of the doom and gloom of the last decade but winning 30 games again next year would be nothing short of a disaster. The day of the Cousins trade should have been the start of an all out tank, its just the best way to take advantage of the rules that have been put in place(see successful organizations like dallas...) but we even managed to screw that up.
Of course we should have a positive vibe and encourage hard play and development, the coach should be instructed to win at all costs as always. But Vlade better make sure we aren't in the 8-10 range again next year. That means not signing or retaining any vets to take away starters minutes from a young prospect, strictly bench vets only sans maybe a floor general to keep things organized. We need at least one blue chip prospect and likely more, I am afraid of Vlade unloading and going all in 2019 when IMO we still wont be ready, all because of his playoff* promise.
NO MORE SHORT TERM PLANS FROM GMs TRYING TO SAVE THEIR JOBS.
Miracles CAN happen and we could be a 45-50+ win team next year but honestly what are the odds of that with the up and coming talented rosters out here in the west. Rookie and 2 year player led teams are not leading teams to the playoffs and we do not have the assets to compete yet if you truly look at the landscape of the west and are honest about the situation.
The clippers truly tried for about 5-7 minutes yesterday and blew our doors off by 20. These guys have a long long way to go before they can lead us to the playoffs (if ever).
Not having a pick in 2019 is going to suck but as we have seen with other perpetual cellar dwellers it takes multiple top 5 lotto picks to get out of hell and is proven to be the fastest way out of it, even though it still may take 3-5 years of losing to land 2 franchise level guys, thats a small price to pay, winning in the NBA is hard.
My opinion is that we tank out until 2021-2022, hopefully land two all-star, franchise level guys in that timeframe as well as develop what we have, some of the top teams in the west now flame out and we jump in around 2023 to take their place for a decade. Pay the price now and reap the benefits for possibly a decade or longer. In the meantime we do everything we can to develop what we have but if the players we have are not cutting it we move on. Oh and absolutely do not miss on top draft picks, if you do miss don't double down and sell all of the assets for a patchwork team like we have every year in the Vivek era.
With the current rules tanking is the most tried and true way out of basketball hell.
We have been BS'ing without a clear direction for a decade plus, its time to be real about our situation and take decisive action.
I know the diehards will hate this opinion but I am super freakin tired of this string of 30 win seasons, the only 30 win season that i want to see happen again should be one the precedes a 50 win season led by young superstars.
I think the question is - "Are the Kings planning to bottom out next year?" Tank implies that they don't want to win games. What they Kings appear to be doing and I think they should do is try each and every night to win as many games as they can (at least up until the last month) but set up the roster where the team is unlikely to finish outside the top 5. Philly has done this for a while, but teams take their medicine for one or two years. Utah clearly told their owner "We are going to bottom out for just one year and chased a top 5 pick, which ended up being Exum, who isn't as good as some of their later picks). Whereas the Lakers keep doing it because they fail to land a star in free agency and want to protect their pick. Until the last month, you don't have to tank. You made a roster that's not able to win most nights. And it's all gravy when the kids play well enough to win.
Conversely, the Kings could continue to try to sign vets and explore other moves to try to win as many games as possible now after picking twice in this lottery. There are two paths here.
I think they clearly try to bottom out / not add pieces that help in the short term this summer. Try to nail a top 5 pick in 2018. And then make some aggressive win now moves with their core intact and not having a 2019 pick.
Conversely, the Kings could continue to try to sign vets and explore other moves to try to win as many games as possible now after picking twice in this lottery. There are two paths here.
I think they clearly try to bottom out / not add pieces that help in the short term this summer. Try to nail a top 5 pick in 2018. And then make some aggressive win now moves with their core intact and not having a 2019 pick.
It's not about actively trying to loose games. It's about not chasing win now moves and having better lottery odds as the reward for being patient. The Jazz tried to win in 14-15, but also decided they were prepared to bottom out for one year to chase a high pick.
The Knicks should be prepared to take their lumps and build around the Zinger, but signed Noah to a horrible contract and experimented with Rose.
Mostly, I'd like to have the Kings have a plan and stick to it. Thus, when Rose is lingering on the market after a week, they don't look at their bottom out plan that makes sense and go, "Well, you know .... if he was healthy and everything broke right .."
The Knicks should be prepared to take their lumps and build around the Zinger, but signed Noah to a horrible contract and experimented with Rose.
Mostly, I'd like to have the Kings have a plan and stick to it. Thus, when Rose is lingering on the market after a week, they don't look at their bottom out plan that makes sense and go, "Well, you know .... if he was healthy and everything broke right .."
I like Joerger, he's a good coach, but this was a knock on him even in Memphis. At what point does it become less about development and more about personal preference? I'm not saying that's 100% what he's going to do next year, but if it is it's the wrong place to do it. You wanna bring the 2017 draft picks and Papa along slower, sure fine, but even then no way should they be riding the pine out of the rotation completely for the majority of the season, even if it means just 10-12 minutes to start off.
But WCS will be in his third year. Buddy will be almost 24 and was billed as NBA ready and has shown that. Skal you could squint and maybe see he's not quite ready to take over the lion's share at PF at the beginning of next season, but his talent is too good to languish on the bench and especially not for Anthony Tolliver. Our vets are bench pieces on a halfway decent team; it's not even putting your best players out there.
What other rebuilding team does it at such a snail's pace? Those that do usually have their coaches mocked or fired. Imagine that if in Lalaland, Luke Walton was pulling a Byron Scott and eschewing Russell, Randle, Clarkson, Ingram, etc for Deng, Mozgov, Calderon, and Nick Young.
But WCS will be in his third year. Buddy will be almost 24 and was billed as NBA ready and has shown that. Skal you could squint and maybe see he's not quite ready to take over the lion's share at PF at the beginning of next season, but his talent is too good to languish on the bench and especially not for Anthony Tolliver. Our vets are bench pieces on a halfway decent team; it's not even putting your best players out there.
What other rebuilding team does it at such a snail's pace? Those that do usually have their coaches mocked or fired. Imagine that if in Lalaland, Luke Walton was pulling a Byron Scott and eschewing Russell, Randle, Clarkson, Ingram, etc for Deng, Mozgov, Calderon, and Nick Young.
These terms get clumsy in many spaces but
Teams tank seasons and call is a rebuilding year all the time. Unlike Philly, it can be for just a year.
On the other hand, bad teams don't actually rebuild and call it a rebuild all the time. As folks here have called on and off haphazard win now moves to stay on the treadmill of mediocrity for over 13 "rebuilding process' and "rebuilding years,"
The issue has less to do with wether crummy veterans like Tolliver play the lion share of the minutes vs a kid that's not ready to win like Skal at particular points in the season, but instead how much or little you chase wins for the next season when signing players and looking at trades.
Teams tank seasons and call is a rebuilding year all the time. Unlike Philly, it can be for just a year.
On the other hand, bad teams don't actually rebuild and call it a rebuild all the time. As folks here have called on and off haphazard win now moves to stay on the treadmill of mediocrity for over 13 "rebuilding process' and "rebuilding years,"
The issue has less to do with wether crummy veterans like Tolliver play the lion share of the minutes vs a kid that's not ready to win like Skal at particular points in the season, but instead how much or little you chase wins for the next season when signing players and looking at trades.
Again, a bit of semantics here but if: (1) the kids are going to be fun and play hard but loose a lot; and (2) the Kings could use a massive amount of cap space to (foolishly over the long term) by massively overpaying a vet to chase 6-8 more wins (not filling out a roster with vets on one and two year deal) ... aren't they tanking next season as part of a rebuild. If you don't like the term tank there, I didn't craft the question above.
For each of the past few seasons, the Kings have signed or tried to sign vets because they wanted to win now and "be good in the new arena." It's more along the lines of "Are the Kings prepared to take their lumps for a year instead of chasing short term wins." That would be both a fundamental shift in course here and IMO the smart play. Folks are trying to move the goal posts back to the Kings being committed to doing that back to last summer, but I don't think that's correct. They thought Affalo would be good, the tried to sign other guys to win now, they didn't push to move DMC or Rudy early because they planned to chase the playoffs. After trading DMC, they claim they are prepared to do a rebuild but this summer is when you have to make the choice to drink 82 games of the medicine.
I see two issues on the disconnect on this issue over a couple of months. First, I'm not sure most fans have considered the difference and what the Kings might intend to do. The second is that some fans think this team might be good to chase the playoffs next year without win now moves ... and I think that's a massive stretch.
For each of the past few seasons, the Kings have signed or tried to sign vets because they wanted to win now and "be good in the new arena." It's more along the lines of "Are the Kings prepared to take their lumps for a year instead of chasing short term wins." That would be both a fundamental shift in course here and IMO the smart play. Folks are trying to move the goal posts back to the Kings being committed to doing that back to last summer, but I don't think that's correct. They thought Affalo would be good, the tried to sign other guys to win now, they didn't push to move DMC or Rudy early because they planned to chase the playoffs. After trading DMC, they claim they are prepared to do a rebuild but this summer is when you have to make the choice to drink 82 games of the medicine.
I see two issues on the disconnect on this issue over a couple of months. First, I'm not sure most fans have considered the difference and what the Kings might intend to do. The second is that some fans think this team might be good to chase the playoffs next year without win now moves ... and I think that's a massive stretch.
Yeah, in a good way. We will be bad, but as long as the kids get playing time, and develop, it'll be worth it.
There were two excellent posts by Kingsjatt and HndsmCelt. While they said opposite things, I kind of agree with both of them (I know that doesn't make much sense). I do think we need one (or more) blue chip guys, and the draft is the best (likely the only) method of getting them. That said, there is a certain luck involved in draft, and successful teams are able to find/develop talent later in the draft too. Having good vets, and coaching staff/management, that can guide the kids properly is equally, or probably more important.
My ideal scenario would be to use our cap space/vets that have some value, and are not critical to development of kids (Rudy/Afflalo) to get more assets. Get some vets who can be good mentors to the kids, and take some pressure off of rookies and sophs, and play hard every game. This will help the kids, but we don't have enough experience to win much, and will be ensured a high pick.
There were two excellent posts by Kingsjatt and HndsmCelt. While they said opposite things, I kind of agree with both of them (I know that doesn't make much sense). I do think we need one (or more) blue chip guys, and the draft is the best (likely the only) method of getting them. That said, there is a certain luck involved in draft, and successful teams are able to find/develop talent later in the draft too. Having good vets, and coaching staff/management, that can guide the kids properly is equally, or probably more important.
My ideal scenario would be to use our cap space/vets that have some value, and are not critical to development of kids (Rudy/Afflalo) to get more assets. Get some vets who can be good mentors to the kids, and take some pressure off of rookies and sophs, and play hard every game. This will help the kids, but we don't have enough experience to win much, and will be ensured a high pick.