Is Kobe Really Clutch???

[Superman]

Thats what seperates kobe from the true legends. The BEST finds a way. Magic, Bird and the likes played against tough teams in their own time. Lets not forget the D was much more physical also. But they find a way to win. Kobe doesn't have the refuse to lose in big games mentallity that the media also paint him to have. MJ would not blow a 24 pt lead in the finals. Or he won't shoot 27% in a finals elimination game. Just no way it would happen. The best of an era is suppose to find a way to win.

Those comparisons are suspect; always have been, no matter who was making them. MJ is in a class all his own, but he lost his share of elimination games and he put up subpar numbers in the playoffs on occasion. What we remember is the way he rose to the occasion more often than not; that's what really cements his legacy. Neither Kobe (nor anyone else in the NBA) has what he had, that combination of extreme ability and tenacity. Kobe fakes it, but he's nowhere near where MJ was.

Bird and Magic played on far more talented teams than Kobe did/does, so it's hard to make that comparison. And that Pistons D in 2004 was pretty doggone old school. Gargamel is still complaining about the officiating.

Because he didn't come through when it counts the most, thats not really being clutch to me.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable to throw out all the big shots and big performances that Kobe has had throughout his career because he's come up short a few times. It's a major blight on his career, not just that his team lost the Finals last year, but the way they lost (and that includes the playoff loss a few years ago to the Suns when they blew a 3-1 series lead, even though they didn't have a chance at winning the title that season) makes it that much worse. But it's still not enough to declare him as "not clutch". His record and the way he's defended down the stretch of any big game speak to the contrary of that declaration.

 

[kupman]

Also, let me clarify something overall. Read the entire thread and you'll see that I stated that I think kobe is a good player. No doubt about that. Is he a good player in the 4th? Somewhat.

But is he really clutch or the best guy to take the last shot? No, not close. Is he the best guy in the 4th qtr like the media pumps him up to be? No
Is he one of the good players in the 4th? Yes The best? No

One of the main points of this discussion is how the media manipulates the news to make kobe as the best guy in game winners and all clutch situations. He clearly is not. And yes, if you watch the NBA, you would've heard something along the lines of "if I needed one last shot to win the ball game, I would take kobe". Really? Even when his history proves that he has one of the lowest percentage of making it? Thats the problem with the media manipulation.

I am with you on this. Kobe misses too many big shot to consider him some type of "clutch" guy. The media made him the "air-apparent" long ago because it makes great business sense. But I am not buying it.

Please stop though. Let Kobe and the rest of world believe that he is "clutch" so that he keeps taking difficult shots with the game on the line and misses 3 out of 4. I go to bed much happier 75% of the time that way.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Those comparisons are suspect; always have been, no matter who was making them. MJ is in a class all his own, but he lost his share of elimination games and he put up subpar numbers in the playoffs on occasion. What we remember is the way he rose to the occasion more often than not; that's what really cements his legacy. Neither Kobe (nor anyone else in the NBA) has what he had, that combination of extreme ability and tenacity. Kobe fakes it, but he's nowhere near where MJ was.

Bird and Magic played on far more talented teams than Kobe did/does, so it's hard to make that comparison. And that Pistons D in 2004 was pretty doggone old school. Gargamel is still complaining about the officiating.


I don't think it's fair or reasonable to throw out all the big shots and big performances that Kobe has had throughout his career because he's come up short a few times. It's a major blight on his career, not just that his team lost the Finals last year, but the way they lost (and that includes the playoff loss a few years ago to the Suns when they blew a 3-1 series lead, even though they didn't have a chance at winning the title that season) makes it that much worse. But it's still not enough to declare him as "not clutch". His record and the way he's defended down the stretch of any big game speak to the contrary of that declaration.

Of course I agree MJ is way above Kobe. But media such as SI's Dan Patrick said kobe is better than MJ many times last yr until the losing 24 pt lead gm. Thats the problem I'm seeing. He has made some big shots and has some big games. Again, I never deny that he wasn't a good player. He's hit some game winners during the seasons and during non series clinching or elimination games. But when the stage is the biggest... when the season is on the line, he has not came through. So as I already said, is he a good 4th qtr player? Yes, somewhat. The best there is? Not close. I don't know why this is going in circles. At the end of the day its just a discussion and I probably won't ever convince you and vice versa. Either way, at least we are both Kings fans in LA. Thats one thing we can relate on. cheers

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I think Kobe is clutch, however I don't think hes the best. That has to be Ray Allen

I agree Ray Allen doesn't get the credit he deserves.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I am with you on this. Kobe misses too many big shot to consider him some type of "clutch" guy. The media made him the "air-apparent" long ago because it makes great business sense. But I am not buying it.

Please stop though. Let Kobe and the rest of world believe that he is "clutch" so that he keeps taking difficult shots with the game on the line and misses 3 out of 4. I go to bed much happier 75% of the time that way.

Yes, the NBA can't make anymore money off Jordan so it doesn't make sense for them to say Jordan is still a lot better than kobe. So pumping kobe up to be MJ's equal is the best business move.

Haha, word.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Those comparisons are suspect; always have been, no matter who was making them. MJ is in a class all his own, but he lost his share of elimination games and he put up subpar numbers in the playoffs on occasion. What we remember is the way he rose to the occasion more often than not; that's what really cements his legacy. Neither Kobe (nor anyone else in the NBA) has what he had, that combination of extreme ability and tenacity. Kobe fakes it, but he's nowhere near where MJ was.

I wasn't going to hijack this thread, but since you invoked the G.O.A.T.'s name... While Jordan is remembered for all the great shots, and championships and what have you, what tends to get overlooked in all that (and what seems pertinent to this discussion) is that he had a losing career record in the playoffs when he was actually facing elimination:

1985: (1-1) - Beat Milwaukee Game 4, Eliminated by Milwaukee Game 5
1986: (0-1) - Eliminated by Boston
1987: (0-1) - Eliminated by Boston
1988: (1-1) - Beat Cleveland, Eliminated by Detroit
1989: (1-1) - Beat Cleveland, Eliminated by Detroit
1990: (1-1) - Beat Detroit Game 6, Eliminated by Detroit Game 7
1992: (1-0) - Beat New York
1995: (0-1) - Eliminated by Orlando
1998: (1-0) - Beat Indiana
====================
Career record in playoff games when facing elimination: 6-7

 

[Superman]

Of course I agree MJ is way above Kobe. But media such as SI's Dan Patrick said kobe is better than MJ many times last yr until the losing 24 pt lead gm. Thats the problem I'm seeing.

Dan Patrick is ridiculous because of that. He's been saying it for three or four years now. But it does make him money.

He has made some big shots and has some big games. Again, I never deny that he wasn't a good player. He's hit some game winners during the seasons and during non series clinching or elimination games. But when the stage is the biggest... when the season is on the line, he has not came through.

That's what I disagree on. He has made those shots on the biggest stage, with the season on the line. Those plays (probably a better word to use) are impossible to miss when you review the Lakers' championship run, the two or three years before the run, and the years since. He hasn't hit the dramatic, elimination game, winning shot like MJ in '98, but he's made similar plays.

In 2000 against the Blazers, the alley-oop late in the 4th quarter in Game 7 that punctuated a 20 point comeback in an elimination game is an example. There are plays where, toward the end of the 4th quarter, Kobe comes up with a string of buckets that push a one possession game out to a four possession game. There are defensive plays that he's made to stop a run, sparking a 4 or 5 point swing, and putting a game on ice. Clutch is so much more than hitting a big shot or making a big play as the clock runs down.

I know that you've acknowledged that, but you keep coming back to the same argument: hitting game winners and winning elimination games.

I'd like to see what your overall definition of clutch is.

So as I already said, is he a good 4th qtr player? Yes, somewhat. The best there is? Not close. I don't know why this is going in circles. At the end of the day its just a discussion and I probably won't ever convince you and vice versa. Either way, at least we are both Kings fans in LA. Thats one thing we can relate on. cheers

Yeah, I know we're going around in circles. But I'm okay with that. It's a healthy debate.

 

[Superman]

I wasn't going to hijack this thread, but since you invoked the G.O.A.T.'s name... While Jordan is remembered for all the great shots, and championships and what have you, what tends to get overlooked in all that (and what seems pertinent to this discussion) is that he had a losing career record in the playoffs when he was actually facing elimination:

1985: (1-1) - Beat Milwaukee Game 4, Eliminated by Milwaukee Game 5
1986: (0-1) - Eliminated by Boston
1987: (0-1) - Eliminated by Boston
1988: (1-1) - Beat Cleveland, Eliminated by Detroit
1989: (1-1) - Beat Cleveland, Eliminated by Detroit
1990: (1-1) - Beat Detroit Game 6, Eliminated by Detroit Game 7
1992: (1-0) - Beat New York
1995: (0-1) - Eliminated by Orlando
1998: (1-0) - Beat Indiana
====================
Career record in playoff games when facing elimination: 6-7

Yeah, I wasn't sure what his record was, but I knew it wasn't spectacular. Still, one wouldn't argue that that 6-7 record would take away from MJ's "clutchness".

On the other hand, his record when the Bulls had the other team facing elimination was probably much more impressive. At least, post '90.

PS -- When compared with Kobe Bryant, you have to take into consideration that MJ was "the man" his entire career; Kobe's only been "the man" the last four seasons.

 

[SacKings7]

He isn't a star, but honestly I think Ben Gordon is the most clutch player in the NBA today. The guy doesn't miss in the 4th quarter.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yeah, I wasn't sure what his record was, but I knew it wasn't spectacular. Still, one wouldn't argue that that 6-7 record would take away from MJ's "clutchness".

On the other hand, his record when the Bulls had the other team facing elimination was probably much more impressive. At least, post '90.

PS -- When compared with Kobe Bryant, you have to take into consideration that MJ was "the man" his entire career; Kobe's only been "the man" the last four seasons.

Oh, don't misunderstand me: the G.O.A.T. was beast when he had the lead in a series. In fact, my research indicates he was 27-9, with a chance to close out a series (25-6 after 1990, since you asked).

 

[Rookie]

Haha, what... its for the last five yrs because that how far they have data for. Also, if anything, it should actually be to kobe's advantage because the last 5 yrs has been his prime yrs.

As far as a last shot situation, there are probably 5 people I would pick before considering kobe. No one said clutch is ONLY game winners, but the ability to hit game winner is part of being clutch. With the game on the line, the last shot do or die, that is the most pressured shot and that is clutch.

Of course there are other ways to be clutch also, but kobe has NOT stepped up in high pressured situations. As stated earlier in this thread, he has choked in all elimination games since shaq left, coincidence?

Again, post some stats or actual facts. I'm open to other views, just need to see some proof rather than assumptions.

Well I check the website that has the stats for winning shot posted earlier. If you scroll down a little further you find that Kobe is tied with Lebron for last winning shot in the playoff. But of course we can't just isolate it to playoff otherwise Bryant look clutch.
http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

I like the website too, it shows both why Kobe isn't the man but also is the man.

And if you read carefully at the bottom the guy that created the stats for winning shot also stated..

For better quality analysis of clutch play, I prefer a filter of "last five minutes of fourth quarter/overtime, with neither team ahead by more than five points."

This was what I was looking for. Anyway the result for 07-08 and 08-09 is Lebron/Bryant than Bryant/Lebron as leader.

But you're right if you just basing this on last possesion, he stinks it up..but then again I wonder how he would of have been defended. And knowing his selfish arse, he would rather take the last hardest shot/lose the ball/etc than give it to just anyone.
http://www.82games.com/random26.htm

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

1985: (1-1) - Beat Milwaukee Game 4, Eliminated by Milwaukee Game 5

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1986: (0-1) - Eliminated by Boston[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1987: (0-1) - Eliminated by Boston[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1988: (1-1) - Beat Cleveland, Eliminated by Detroit[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1989: (1-1) - Beat Cleveland, Eliminated by Detroit[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1990: (1-1) - Beat Detroit Game 6, Eliminated by Detroit Game 7[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1992: (1-0) - Beat New York[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1995: (0-1) - Eliminated by Orlando[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]1998: (1-0) - Beat Indiana[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]====================[/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=teal]Career record in playoff games when facing elimination: 6-7[/COLOR][/FONT]

While you are at it, post some info for everyone for Magic & Bird also because I mentioned those guys too.

Also not sure why this is hijacked into a Jordan thread.

Of course every great player has loss in the playoffs before. But not losing in a choking way. Replying to what you posted, those series against Jordan was a young MJ with a team that was about 2 yrs removed from having 2nd worse record in the league in order to draft him. Its actually incredible that they got to the playoffs that quick. Kind of like what Lebron did with the Cavs. Look at the roster that the Bulls had in those yrs and compare them to the Celtics' and Pistons'. They were suppose to get killed. MJ loss to the celtics, but we also remember that he played so well that Larry Bird comments were "That's not Michael Jordan, that's God in disguise".

There is a difference in losing to a much better team and still playing good comparing to losing by 39 pts in an elimination game after blowing a 24 pt lead at home while getting shut down. 19 of the 20 analysts on ESPN picked the Lakers to beat the Celtics last yr. They had a stacked team even without bynum. The Vegas odds favored Lakers also. They were suppose to win and loss. Kobe started his career playing with a guy name Shaq. That makes things much easier doesn't it. For players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, they win when they are suppose to win. The only time MJ loss in the playoffs when he had a decent team was the yr he came back after a 2 yr layoff in minor league baseball. Lets not forget he came back late in the season with only 20 games left or so, after not playing an NBA game for almost 2 yrs.

If kobe led a Gasol-less lakers team deep into the playoffs and loss, then my hats off to him. But he struggled to even make the playoffs. He made some shots when he was with Shaq, but Shaq was the one that caused all the mismatches. No way to deny that as he won all 3 finals MVP. Funny how kobe fans nowadays try to say kobe was the main guy in their championship runs.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

For better quality analysis of clutch play, I prefer a filter of "last five minutes of fourth quarter/overtime, with neither team ahead by more than five points."

This was what I was looking for. Anyway the result for 07-08 and 08-09 is Lebron/Bryant than Bryant/Lebron as leader.

But you're right if you just basing this on last possesion, he stinks it up..but then again I wonder how he would of have been defended. And knowing his selfish arse, he would rather take the last hardest shot/lose the ball/etc than give it to just anyone.

As stated many times, I'm not saying kobe sucks completely. Its just messed up that he is billed as the most clutch while other guys such as lebron that has the same playoff percentage and a better regular season percentage is billed as not clutch enough. We've all heard the media using the clutch factor as why Kobe is better than lebron.

Clutch is more than just the last shot of course. What about Both Wade and Lebron scoring more 4th qtr pts than kobe?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

While you are at it, post some info for everyone for Magic & Bird also because I mentioned those guys too...

While you're at it, save your indignation for someone who was talking to you. I was responding to Superman.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

While you're at it, save your indignation for someone who was talking to you. I was responding to Superman.

Wow, bad day or what? Public forums are for public response. If its a restricted comment, maybe send him a PM next time?

 

[Superman]

While you are at it, post some info for everyone for Magic & Bird also because I mentioned those guys too.

Also not sure why this is hijacked into a Jordan thread.

Good threads evolve/devolve. If you expect a conversation about clutch players not to eventually include the best clutch player of all time, then I don't know what to say.

Of course every great player has loss in the playoffs before. But not losing in a choking way. Replying to what you posted, those series against Jordan was a young MJ with a team that was about 2 yrs removed from having 2nd worse record in the league in order to draft him. Its actually incredible that they got to the playoffs that quick. Kind of like what Lebron did with the Cavs. Look at the roster that the Bulls had in those yrs and compare them to the Celtics' and Pistons'. They were suppose to get killed. MJ loss to the celtics, but we also remember that he played so well that Larry Bird comments were "That's not Michael Jordan, that's God in disguise".

I'm certainly not comparing Kobe to MJ. Didn't think you were either.

There is a difference in losing to a much better team and still playing good comparing to losing by 39 pts in an elimination game after blowing a 24 pt lead at home while getting shut down. 19 of the 20 analysts on ESPN picked the Lakers to beat the Celtics last yr. They had a stacked team even without bynum. The Vegas odds favored Lakers also. They were suppose to win and loss. Kobe started his career playing with a guy name Shaq. That makes things much easier doesn't it. For players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, they win when they are suppose to win. The only time MJ loss in the playoffs when he had a decent team was the yr he came back after a 2 yr layoff in minor league baseball. Lets not forget he came back late in the season with only 20 games left or so, after not playing an NBA game for almost 2 yrs.

If kobe led a Gasol-less lakers team deep into the playoffs and loss, then my hats off to him. But he struggled to even make the playoffs. He made some shots when he was with Shaq, but Shaq was the one that caused all the mismatches. No way to deny that as he won all 3 finals MVP. Funny how kobe fans nowadays try to say kobe was the main guy in their championship runs.

Let's not mistake the Celtics for some long-shot Cinderella team. Pierce, Allen and Garnett aren't exactly slouches, and that team won 66 games last year. Coach of the Year in Doc Rivers. To say that the Lakers were "supposed to win" is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.

And let's not take anything away from Kobe during the championship years. Sure Shaq won the Finals MVP awards, but you can't forget how many of those games, in the playoffs and Finals, that Kobe took over and carried the Lakers to victories. Or the long stretches during the regular season when Shaq was out with toe injuries and hand injuries, and Kobe single-handedly carried the Lakers for months at a time. I hate defending this guy, but don't make him out to be just another roleplayer. It detracts from your argument.

Now, regarding the results of the Finals, sure it stains his legacy that they blew a 20 point lead at home, and it's just as bad that they lost by 40 points in the clinching game. It knocks him down a couple notches, certainly. But it doesn't strip him of his other accomplishments throughout his career. It doesn't mean that he's not clutch.

He doesn't have the big shots in his portfolio like Jordan does ('89 against the Cavs, '98 against the Jazz, and dozens in between), and he doesn't have the rings as the #1 guy on the team, he doesn't have the Finals MVPs. And maybe he's not the most clutch guy in the League by the numbers (I think if you polled coaches and players, he'd come out on top). But he's still clutch. Top five? Probably. Top three? Arguable, but I'd have him there. #1? How do you tell, and who really cares? I just can't understand how you can let the stats trick you into thinking that Kobe Bryant "is not clutch".

 

[Rookie]

As stated many times, I'm not saying kobe sucks completely. Its just messed up that he is billed as the most clutch while other guys such as lebron that has the same playoff percentage and a better regular season percentage is billed as not clutch enough. We've all heard the media using the clutch factor as why Kobe is better than lebron.

Clutch is more than just the last shot of course. What about Both Wade and Lebron scoring more 4th qtr pts than kobe?

You're right the media those make it seem like he is a clutch god which he is definitely not.

But lets go back to the question: Is Kobe really clutch?

I'm just trying to prove that he is, I'm not trying to prove he is the best.

I don't remember seeing the question is Kobe better than yadda yadda during clutch time. Or the greatest clutch yadda yadda.

Moving on.

http://www.82games.com/0809/QTR4S11.HTM
Link for 4th quarter stat this season. Only Lebron is ahead of Kobe but even if Wade is ahead too, does that mean Kobe is not clutch?
/shrug

I consider Lebron and Wade to be clutch players as well and would love for any of them, to be in the line up during critical situation.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Good threads evolve/devolve. If you expect a conversation about clutch players not to eventually include the best clutch player of all time, then I don't know what to say.



I'm certainly not comparing Kobe to MJ. Didn't think you were either.



Let's not mistake the Celtics for some long-shot Cinderella team. Pierce, Allen and Garnett aren't exactly slouches, and that team won 66 games last year. Coach of the Year in Doc Rivers. To say that the Lakers were "supposed to win" is a bit of a stretch, if you ask me.

And let's not take anything away from Kobe during the championship years. Sure Shaq won the Finals MVP awards, but you can't forget how many of those games, in the playoffs and Finals, that Kobe took over and carried the Lakers to victories. Or the long stretches during the regular season when Shaq was out with toe injuries and hand injuries, and Kobe single-handedly carried the Lakers for months at a time. I hate defending this guy, but don't make him out to be just another roleplayer. It detracts from your argument.

Now, regarding the results of the Finals, sure it stains his legacy that they blew a 20 point lead at home, and it's just as bad that they lost by 40 points in the clinching game. It knocks him down a couple notches, certainly. But it doesn't strip him of his other accomplishments throughout his career. It doesn't mean that he's not clutch.

He doesn't have the big shots in his portfolio like Jordan does ('89 against the Cavs, '98 against the Jazz, and dozens in between), and he doesn't have the rings as the #1 guy on the team, he doesn't have the Finals MVPs. And maybe he's not the most clutch guy in the League by the numbers (I think if you polled coaches and players, he'd come out on top). But he's still clutch. Top five? Probably. Top three? Arguable, but I'd have him there. #1? How do you tell, and who really cares? I just can't understand how you can let the stats trick you into thinking that Kobe Bryant "is not clutch".

If you read the entire thread, I've stated that I think kobe is somewhat good in clutch situation. But not the god that the current media is making him to be. Maybe the thread title should be "Is Kobe the MOST Clutch?"

Its not just the stats along of how many point he blew etc. I've watched the same games that you have an I don't think he's really done enough to be considered as the clutch guy that he is billed as by the public. Just a difference in opinion. If you say he is top 5 of the current players, I may listen. But top 5 of all time is certainly out of the question.

 

[Superman]

If you read the entire thread, I've stated that I think kobe is somewhat good in clutch situation. But not the god that the current media is making him to be. Maybe the thread title should be "Is Kobe the MOST Clutch?"

Its not just the stats along of how many point he blew etc. I've watched the same games that you have an I don't think he's really done enough to be considered as the clutch guy that he is billed as by the public. Just a difference in opinion. If you say he is top 5 of the current players, I may listen. But top 5 of all time is certainly out of the question.

I meant top five currently.

My arguments have all been in response to your thesis statement in the first post: Kobe is NOT clutch or the best closer in the game by any means. I simply take issue with the first part of that statement, namely, that Kobe is not clutch.

I don't really know how to quantify who the best closer in the game is without defining the term "best closer", nor do I know that you can determine who is more or less clutch; primarily because being clutch is mostly intangible anyways, and there's no standardized method of ranking clutchness.

And again, regarding public and media perception, Kobe was The Next Coming the minute he declared for the draft. This billing has been in the making for over a decade. I guess I'm just used to it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Wow, bad day or what? Public forums are for public response. If its a restricted comment, maybe send him a PM next time?

Don't be deliberately dense; you can hide behind that public forum nonsense if you want (and, if you want to get technical about it, this is a privately-owned message board), but anybody with common sense could see that I was responding to Superman.

But, that's neither here nor there: you gave me attitude, and you got attitude in return. As far as I'm concerned, you've got no business being upset; you started it.

 

[kingsnation]

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Kobe is clutch. He also has the killer instinct and the drive to put teams away as well.

Again, post some stats or actual facts. I'm open to other views, just need to see some proof rather than assumptions.

And if you read carefully at the bottom the guy that created the stats for winning shot also stated..

For better quality analysis of clutch play, I prefer a filter of "last five minutes of fourth quarter/overtime, with neither team ahead by more than five points."

This was what I was looking for. Anyway the result for 07-08 and 08-09 is Lebron/Bryant than Bryant/Lebron as leader.

 

[mac]

If you read the entire thread, I've stated that I think kobe is somewhat good in clutch situation. But not the god that the current media is making him to be. Maybe the thread title should be "Is Kobe the MOST Clutch?"

Well yes it should be as such because frankly you've been saying Kobe is not clutch, then no I'm saying he is quite clutch, then but he's not what the media says he is. Read the posts, I don't think a single post here claimed or supported that Kobe is what the media makes him out to be. But in response to YOUR thread title, the concensus is yes, he is clutch. So kindly make up your mind as to whether your argument is if Kobe is clutch or if Kobe is the "god of clutch" as you termed.

Another thing, you were the one to bring in other legends such as Bird and Magic. Keep in mind that your whole media rant is that people would choose Kobe to take the final shot. Well, I don't see how the other legends are involved in this because they aren't playing in the league now. People didn't say "I'd take Kobe over Magic or Jordan to take the final shot" right? As far as I'm concerned this whole who to take the final shot thing would only concern the teams that Kobe is on, namely the Lakers, the all star team and the USA team. The All Star game rarely has such a situation (if i'm not wrong) and I don't know about the USA team. But as for the Lakers, would you rather Vujacic or maybe trevor ariza take the final shot?

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Don't be deliberately dense; you can hide behind that public forum nonsense if you want (and, if you want to get technical about it, this is a privately-owned message board), but anybody with common sense could see that I was responding to Superman.

But, that's neither here nor there: you gave me attitude, and you got attitude in return. As far as I'm concerned, you've got no business being upset; you started it.

Hmm, I really think you are being overly sensitive here. My original response to your exclusive comment to superman was just an opinion. I don’t know why you take it so hard in the first place.

If you look through this thread and all around the forum, you will find that people respond to other people’s response to someone else all the time. Have you done that before yourself? It was just odd that you would take it so hard. Not sure why we are discussing this here.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Well yes it should be as such because frankly you've been saying Kobe is not clutch, then no I'm saying he is quite clutch, then but he's not what the media says he is. Read the posts, I don't think a single post here claimed or supported that Kobe is what the media makes him out to be. But in response to YOUR thread title, the concensus is yes, he is clutch. So kindly make up your mind as to whether your argument is if Kobe is clutch or if Kobe is the "god of clutch" as you termed.

If you read everything, I've stated earlier that I'm open to people convincing me otherwise. I've read some of the posts and I have agreed that kobe is somewhat clutch. But I still don't agree that he should be billed ast the most clutch because there are others that are as good if not better than him. Thats all.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Kobe is clutch. He also has the killer instinct and the drive to put teams away as well.

BTW, this is good discussion looking at different stats. Credit to the poster.


Ok, lets look at the stats. Well just like we shouldn't count clutch as only game winners, if we are going by the last 5 mins, we shouldn’t just go by just most pts either. If you look at the stats all across the board, while kobe is good, Lebron is even more impressive. While kobe scores 0.8 points more per 48 mins of clutch, Lebron’s field goal percentage is 56% vs kobe’s 46%. Lebron shoots the 3pt at 42% while kobe shoots at 40%. Kobe does have a high FT % at 92% vs 85%. Other key stats, Lebron grabs 14 rebs vs kobe’s 8. Lebron dishes 13 asst to kobe’s 6.

These stats actually is very amazing on Lebron’s part which surprises even me. Kobe is good also, but I’m more impress with Lebron’s game. Especially with him being only 24 yrs old.

Another interesting find is Melo’s accuracy during the last 5 clutch mins. He’s shooting a field goals at 57% and the 3pt at a stunning 58%. This is consistent with his high game winner shooting %. His other key stats are not bad, but not stunning at 8 rebs, 3 assist.

As for Wade, if we look at all the key statistical categories, he is probably the worse out of the 4.

So yes, after all the discussion and evaluating the stats, I would agree that even though he is one of the worse at game winner %, kobe’s overall play is somewhat clutch. But Lebron is more clutch, and probably Melo also. I know its probably hard for some to accept Melo as being clutch because he was never portrayed by the media as such. So all the arguement of Kobe being better than everyone because he is the most clutch is what I don't agree with.



BTW, looking at the defensive stats also, because D is very important down the stretch in close games as the best defender on each team is suppose to guard the best offensive player on the other team.

D Wade has an insane 4.9 blks & 3 stls per 48 mins of clutch time. Lebron has a nice 1.7 blks & 3.5 stls. Kobe has 0.0 blks & 1 steal.

 

[Gargamel]

I agree with some things but some not. My point about him shooting 27% is he did it on an elimination game. The D was focused on Shaq, and then you have the other potent guys like Malone and Payton.

No. Their defense was on Kobe that series. Team D. Shaq got 1:1 coverage for the bulk of that series, pretty much for the 1st time in his career.

Ironically, you're calling him unclutch because he shot poorly in an elimination game in the same series where the only game they won was due to his clutch shots.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

No. Their defense was on Kobe that series. Team D. Shaq got 1:1 coverage for the bulk of that series, pretty much for the 1st time in his career.

Ironically, you're calling him unclutch because he shot poorly in an elimination game in the same series where the only game they won was due to his clutch shots.

They did not focus on kobe specifically. It was single coverage on everyone most of the time. Kobe and the rest of the players weren't used to not having the luxury of holes and open lanes created by teams doubling or even tripling Shaq. Kobe did admit after Shaq was booted from the lakers (with the lakers struggling), that bball was much tougher without the big fellow. Pistons also used very effective help D when shaq had the ball or when kobe drove the ball. If you read the whole thing, the point was that I don't mind someone losing a series or an elimination game. If you put up a good fight then there is absolutely no problem. But great players are just not suppose to shoot 27% regardless of D in such an important game. Average players are affected by the pressure but big time guys like kobe are not suppose to be. Because Kobe is not suppose to be just another rick fox.

But besides that, as you can see we have a lot of other new stats and discussions now.

 

[Superman]

They did not focus on kobe specifically. It was single coverage on everyone most of the time.

You keep saying that. If you have the series on tape, you should break those tapes out and rewatch the series. Kobe was harassed at every turn, and the Pistons were extremely physical with him.

But great players are just not suppose to shoot 27% regardless of D in such an important game. Average players are affected by the pressure but big time guys like kobe are not suppose to be. Because Kobe is not suppose to be just another rick fox.

He showed in Game 2 that he's not just another Rick Fox. And good defense is what it always is, especially when you have an entire team playing at such a high level. You have to give credit to the Pistons and Larry Brown for that game plan and the execution, rather than pointing at Kobe Bryant and saying that he choked.

 

[RKid]

Lets look at his Resume off the top of my head:

2000 Playoffs
Game 2 vs Phoenix: Game Winning Shot

Game 7 vs Portland: Four straight points and the assist to Shaq when the game was in its climax and put the lakers up 85 - 79

Game 4 vs Indiana: Shaq fouls out early in Overtime and Kobe takes over the period in which he tips in a missed free throw.

2001 Playoffs
Game 1 vs Spurs: Kobe takes over the fourth quarter which again includes a tipped free throw

I havent even reached 2002 and I havent even mentioned the Blazers in 2004 which gave LA the division, or 2006 vs Phoenix.

I dont know what the definition of clutch is but Kobe is the closest thing to clutch in the NBA. Look at his resume and his history and I dont think that Lebron, Wade's or Carmelo's come even close to equaling what he has done.

Quite frankly I dont think making shots at the end necesarilly equal being clutch. I think clutch is having a history of coming up big in big moments and making the right decisions under intense preassure. (Kobe, Horry, Jordan, Bird among others)

 

[kingsnation]

Ok, lets look at the stats. Well just like we shouldn't count clutch as only game winners, if we are going by the last 5 mins, we shouldn’t just go by just most pts either. If you look at the stats all across the board, while kobe is good, Lebron is even more impressive. While kobe scores 0.8 points more per 48 mins of clutch, Lebron’s field goal percentage is 56% vs kobe’s 46%. Lebron shoots the 3pt at 42% while kobe shoots at 40%. Kobe does have a high FT % at 92% vs 85%. Other key stats, Lebron grabs 14 rebs vs kobe’s 8. Lebron dishes 13 asst to kobe’s 6.

I don't care about Lebron, my contribution to this thread is this: Kobe Is Clutch. And stats prove it. Period. End of discussion. That's my answer to your thread title.