Is Kobe Really Clutch???

[Peter_Gibbons]

Listen, I don't like Kobe - but here are the facts: He has taken 6 more GWs than Lebron. 17 more than Allen and 29 more than Carmelo. My guess is that if those others had as many as he has, their % would be lower than his.

Also, remember this - Lebron/Melo entered the league during this time span - so you better believe that they as rookies weren't being guarded as heavily as Kobe was during that same time.

Now I'm done here, my stomach can't take much more of actually defending Kobe.

I see your point. But thats just assuming that melo and others would miss more if they took more and its not really fair. Also, the difference between 6 shots taken between Lebron and kobe is too close to say it would make any difference. The 2 high volume last shot takers are lebron and kobe, and lebron has a higher %.

Again, its not just the game winners we are talking. Since clutch is not just the last shot. But kobe has choked in many elimination games and crucial games as well. The most recent example, losing the 24 pt lead mid way through the 3rd in the finals at home. That was a series changing game. Of course one can argue that bball is a team sport and its not all his fault. Of course its not. But has any legends such as Magic, Bird, Jordan and the like ever let something like that slip?

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Payton and Malone were on the downside of their careers. Actually, at the end of them. Shaq and Kobe were feuding, and chemistry is important when you are at the final stage. Not defending him, just shooting off some counter points. I would have him shoot at the end the same reason I would have Albert Pujols hitting. Basketball is a sport where if a guard shoots 50 % it's considered phenomenal. When you have one shooting as much as Kobe, kind of hard for % to consistently be up there. He is always the focus on defenses, always the one they aim to stop. This DOES play a role. Pujols hits something like .350 Does this means you would not have him hit with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth because he has a 2 out of 3 chance of failing? I know, analogy does not fit greatly, but I would have Kobe take the end shot over any one of those shooters with better percentages, because you KNOW, unless you are playing the clippers, the player will NOT be wide open. If the question is, who takes the game winner if he's set up by another guy, then the list grows. Allen, Pedja, Dirk... so on and so on.

About the Suns series. I was laughing my *** off and here's why : He is and will never be "the man" or "leader" of any team. He is a phenomenal talent with a knack for Basketball. Athletic, can shoot, has that MJ drive that many, including LBJ, lack. But absolutely he would let his team go down by 30. This is the same man that sacrificed his best chance for a championship by kicking out the only man that could have provided it for him, and subsequently threw him under the bus. He, at the very best, put his family through hell through an extramarital affair. This is not a guy who exactly has everybody else's best affairs in mind. ALl the talent in the world, along with all the ego.

I just don't think the media should make him as "the guy" to take the game winners when he shoots 25%. Yes we all agree he is a good player. But overrated in certain parts of the game? Yes.

I really don't think he has the drive and mental toughness of MJ. If he did, he would not lose a 24 point lead at home in the finals. He would not have loss by 39 pts in the elimination game. I think any bball fan would agree that there is no way in hell MJ would allow his team to lose by 39pts or let a 24 pt lead slip away. But thats another thread of discussion.

 

[Jerryaki]

No, this is not another Lebron vs Kobe thread. So I don't know why the off topic arguements are here. This is the thread about the selective reporting and media manipulation that has gotten to a lot of people.

oh okay. then i echo VF21's sentiment: who cares if kobe is clutch or not? the media not reporting much on the kings or small market teams is more annoying.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

oh okay. then i echo VF21's sentiment: who cares if kobe is clutch or not?

Well, isn't part of the purpose for a forum is for public discussion? I mean if there has been people discussing then it seems there is interest.

 

[Jerryaki]

Well, isn't part of the purpose for a forum is for public discussion? I mean if there has been people discussing then it seems there is interest.

touche.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I am one that is interested in this topic. I am not a Kobe fan, but I do have an interest in perceptions and how they can be distorted. Along with this topic, I have often wondered if Kobe and others are as "clutch" or have the "it" factor as much as people believe. It seems that these perceptions can be easily distorted by confirmation bias and availability heuristic.

It does not look like any of those guys are actually "clutch" if that term means they get better with the game on the line. All of them except Carmelo have lower shooting percentages than their averages. Maybe they are no better with the game on the line and they take bad/forced shots with the game on the line because they, and everyone else, presumes that they are somehow clutch. Maybe they should learn from MJ and pass the ball to Steve Kerr or Bobby Hansen at the end of the game.

Thanks for the data you provided. If you have any more please share.

You're welcome. And thats my point exactly. I don't agree with the facts being distorted to make a player seem god like. All while other players such as Dirk, Cwebb etc are characterized as chokers by the media just because they made a few mistakes in their own time. Mistakes that kobe has certainly commited in the same degree. If someone that misses 3 out of 4 game winners can be regarded as the best to take a shot with the game on the line, why are guys like Melo perceived as not clutch when he actually shoots a very good %.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Is Kobe really clutch? No offense to the OP, but I cannot imagine a topic of less interest to the majority of people on this board...


I know it's considered bad form to answer a question with another question, but I have to ask...who cares? If you really want to argue this point, I'd suggest trying a Lakers board.

This is the NBA forum, is it not?

 

[mac]

Umm. firstly, Kobe is Clutch. secondly, it's the media, they always twist stuff. So I don't see your point. It's as big a deal as any other media-related scandal whatnot

 

[Aenadin]

as much as i like an exciting game and heart pounding last second moments of a game..

id rather have a team and a player who can pound the other team to oblivion rather than over-flow the arena with adrenaline rush with game winners

that way every one can go home happy... and not hold their breaths come time out

significant lead wins leads to happy fans, well rested starters, a secure job for a coach,no blame game bad thing bout it we dont see dancers do their thing come time outs

 

[Rookie]

Yes.

If we're in a tight game with 2 minutes left..Kobe is one of the very few that I would hate to go against.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Umm. firstly, Kobe is Clutch. secondly, it's the media, they always twist stuff. So I don't see your point. It's as big a deal as any other media-related scandal whatnot

Ok, everyone has an opinion and I respect that. But the point of this thread is to support your claims with some facts instead of just perceptions or assumptions. So if you have some stats or hard facts to prove that he is clutch, please share. Because from his game winner percentage, elimination game history of playing poorly etc, he has been anything but clutch.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Yes.

If we're in a tight game with 2 minutes left..Kobe is one of the very few that I would hate to go against.

Any reason other than personal preference? If there is some stats out there for his final 2 mins performance (only when games are on the line within less than 3 points type of data), please share.

 

[Rookie]

Come on now, you trying to say Lebron doesn't get doubled or tripled with the game on the line? I've seen him get mobbed by the D all the time. Kobe does not hit game winners 3/4th the time. Regarding range, Lebron's 3pt % is 34% while kobe's is 35%.




Game Winners between 2003-2009 season

LEBRON JAMES - (17/50)=34%
RAY ALLEN - (15/39)=39%
KOBE BRYANT - (14/56)=25%
CARMELO ANTHONY - (13/27)=48%


This may pee off a lot of Kobe fans, but facts are facts. No matter how you want to picture kobe to be or how the media talks him up, he made 14/56 = 25%. Thats the lowest percentage by far. A guy that makes 25% of his game winning shots is not clutch. We can argue about who got doubled or how his shots are tougher etc etc. Those are all subjective things. FACTS are FACTS.

First your fact is created for your argument. 2003-2009, why those years? Why not list every year and compare yearly? Who would be the top five of every year?

I guess base on FACTS, Carmelo would be the man to go to even if you have Kobe or Lebron.

Clutch = last shot?

Maybe I'm one of the few that thinks clutch as being able to carry your team from behind to a victory down the stretch and not necessarily take the last shot.

Robert Horry anyone?

Clutch itself is perception.

 

[Superman]

Shame on Peter Gibbons for forcing Kings fans to defend Kobe Bryant.

That said, regarding the Pistons series, if you try to extrapolate stats from any game in that series without watching the actual game, you're going to be misled. The stats tell you that Shaq was a beast and couldn't be stopped, and that Kobe couldn't buy a bucket all series long. But the truth is that the Pistons didn't care to stop Shaq, and they continually sent two and three players at Kobe whenever and wherever he caught the ball. So damn the numbers and the shooting percentages, because they're not indicative of what really happened in that series.

If you're going to look at numbers, look at Game 2. The one game that the Pistons didn't constantly double and triple team him, he went off for 30 plus, put the team on his back, hit shots to send the game into overtime and to nail it down. That's the only game the Lakers won it that series. And it was all Kobe, all the way.

So if the crux of your argument is that Kobe's percentage when shooting game winners is low, then you're looking at it all wrong. Clutch isn't just game winners.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

First your fact is created for your argument. 2003-2009, why those years? Why not list every year and compare yearly? Who would be the top five of every year?

I guess base on FACTS, Carmelo would be the man to go to even if you have Kobe or Lebron.

Clutch = last shot?

Maybe I'm one of the few that thinks clutch as being able to carry your team from behind to a victory down the stretch and not necessarily take the last shot.

Robert Horry anyone?

Clutch itself is perception.

Haha, what... its for the last five yrs because that how far they have data for. Also, if anything, it should actually be to kobe's advantage because the last 5 yrs has been his prime yrs.

As far as a last shot situation, there are probably 5 people I would pick before considering kobe. No one said clutch is ONLY game winners, but the ability to hit game winner is part of being clutch. With the game on the line, the last shot do or die, that is the most pressured shot and that is clutch.

Of course there are other ways to be clutch also, but kobe has NOT stepped up in high pressured situations. As stated earlier in this thread, he has choked in all elimination games since shaq left, coincidence?

Again, post some stats or actual facts. I'm open to other views, just need to see some proof rather than assumptions.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Shame on Peter Gibbons for forcing Kings fans to defend Kobe Bryant.

That said, regarding the Pistons series, if you try to extrapolate stats from any game in that series without watching the actual game, you're going to be misled. The stats tell you that Shaq was a beast and couldn't be stopped, and that Kobe couldn't buy a bucket all series long. But the truth is that the Pistons didn't care to stop Shaq, and they continually sent two and three players at Kobe whenever and wherever he caught the ball. So damn the numbers and the shooting percentages, because they're not indicative of what really happened in that series.

If you're going to look at numbers, look at Game 2. The one game that the Pistons didn't constantly double and triple team him, he went off for 30 plus, put the team on his back, hit shots to send the game into overtime and to nail it down. That's the only game the Lakers won it that series. And it was all Kobe, all the way.

So if the crux of your argument is that Kobe's percentage when shooting game winners is low, then you're looking at it all wrong. Clutch isn't just game winners.

No one is forcing anyone to defend anyone they don't want to. Unless you are one of those Kings fans that also likes kobe.

They did not double anyone in particular. The Pistons were known to single coverage everyone which left the perimeter players with no room to operate. The problem with kobe in that series was that he was used to other teams doubling on Shaq, leaving him and other perimeter players open. The pistons didn't double shaq.

If you want to make an arguement, please read the entire thread. I've said several times perviously that clutch is NOT just game winners. If I said it was just game winners, you wouldn't be defending kobe's overall performance against the Pistons.

 

[kingsnation]

As far as a last shot situation, there are probably 5 people I would pick before considering kobe.

Just curious... who would those 5 players be?

 

[Superman]

No one is forcing anyone to defend anyone they don't want to. Unless you are one of those Kings fans that also likes kobe.

Stop it.

They did not double anyone in particular. The Pistons were known to single coverage everyone which left the perimeter players with no room to operate. The problem with kobe in that series was that he was used to other teams doubling on Shaq, leaving him and other perimeter players open. The pistons didn't double shaq.

You didn't watch the series then. The Pistons double teamed Kobe Bryant virtually every time he touched the ball. They let Shaq do his thing against single coverage.

If you want to make an arguement, please read the entire thread. I've said several times perviously that clutch is NOT just game winners. If I said it was just game winners, you wouldn't be defending kobe's overall performance against the Pistons.

The stats that you're leaning on and presenting as evidence that Kobe is not clutch are primarily regarding game winning situations. What's your real argument? I mean, if you're saying that Kobe isn't clutch, I think you should set forth the determining metric that you're using to define what "clutch" is.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Stop it.



You didn't watch the series then. The Pistons double teamed Kobe Bryant virtually every time he touched the ball. They let Shaq do his thing against single coverage.


The stats that you're leaning on and presenting as evidence that Kobe is not clutch are primarily regarding game winning situations. What's your real argument? I mean, if you're saying that Kobe isn't clutch, I think you should set forth the determining metric that you're using to define what "clutch" is.

Huh? I have the finals on tape still. I don't consider help defense when someone is driving the same as regular doubling because the point is to stop ANYONE that tries to penetrate the lane. The did not run after him to press EVERYTIME he touch the ball. There is a difference.

Is the fact that he choked away a 24 lead a game winning situation? What about elimination game last yr getting blown out by 39 pts? If you find a way to defend that as not choking under pressure then really, you must be a kobe fan.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Also, let me clarify something overall. Read the entire thread and you'll see that I stated that I think kobe is a good player. No doubt about that. Is he a good player in the 4th? Somewhat.

But is he really clutch or the best guy to take the last shot? No, not close. Is he the best guy in the 4th qtr like the media pumps him up to be? No
Is he one of the good players in the 4th? Yes The best? No

One of the main points of this discussion is how the media manipulates the news to make kobe as the best guy in game winners and all clutch situations. He clearly is not. And yes, if you watch the NBA, you would've heard something along the lines of "if I needed one last shot to win the ball game, I would take kobe". Really? Even when his history proves that he has one of the lowest percentage of making it? Thats the problem with the media manipulation.

 

[kingsnation]

You mentioned before that you would pick 5 players before Kobe to take the final shot...

Again, I am curious to who you would pick?

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

You mentioned before that you would pick 5 players before Kobe to take the final shot...

Again, I am curious to who you would pick?

Haha, just curious huh.

Paul Pierce
Mike Bibby
Ray Allen
Lebron James
Carmelo Anthony

Not in any particular order, but thats just easily off the top of my head. There might be others out there too.


Now, lets see your top 5 picks besides kobe.

BTW, I hope we get Griffin too. Rubio would be an ok 2nd choice.

 

[kingsnation]

Yeah curious because if you poll 100 NBA fans and experts - 99 out of the 100 would have Kobe at least in the top 3... I guess you're the 1 there.

........

I would have Kobe, Lebron, Ray Allen for sure.. the final 2 would be a toss up on situation and opponent.

 

[Superman]

Huh? I have the finals on tape still. I don't consider help defense when someone is driving the same as regular doubling because the point is to stop ANYONE that tries to penetrate the lane. The did not run after him to press EVERYTIME he touch the ball. There is a difference.

Is the fact that he choked away a 24 lead a game winning situation? What about elimination game last yr getting blown out by 39 pts? If you find a way to defend that as not choking under pressure then really, you must be a kobe fan.

"Everytime" is hyperbole. Most of the time is not. And if you don't consider sending a double-team at a player as he penetrates to be "double-teaming", then we have fundamental differences in the way we understand the game of basketball. They made Kobe work to get the ball, then turned him into a jumpshooter once he had it. Great team defense by the Pistons.

The fact that the Lakers choked away a lead reflects poorly on Kobe Bryant, and it takes away from his reputation as one of the great clutch players in the NBA. And getting blown out by 39 points in an elimination game is just as bad, if not worse.

But it doesn't mean that Kobe isn't clutch. That argument is no more sound than saying that he's not clutch because he's missed some game winners.

And if your problem is with the media's perception of Kobe as the greatest clutch performer in the NBA, then I'd suggest that you focus your energies elsewhere. The media and the NBA have spent a lot of time and money building "Kobe Bryant". Of course they're going to prop him up at every turn.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Yeah curious because if you poll 100 NBA fans and experts - 99 out of the 100 would have Kobe at least in the top 3... I guess you're the 1 there.

Thats probably true that the majority will pick kobe in the top 3. But maybe its because I'm in LA and I see him take game winners and clutch shots down the stretch all the time and really, he misses most of the time. Its different comparing to a kobe fan in Texas that just sees that shots he makes on SportsCenter if you know what I mean.


I just think the media should give more credit to guys like Ray Allen, Paul Pierce etc because those guys are really clutch. But Ray has not really gotten much credit because he is not a popular player or not as popular.

Other guys from before that were clutch, Nick the Quick.

 

[kingsnation]

Thats probably true that the majority will pick kobe in the top 3. But maybe its because I'm in LA and I see him take game winners and clutch shots down the stretch all the time and really, he misses most of the time.

Not just fans.. but experts, players and coaches too..

Lakers are one of the most popular teams in the world, you are seeing the same games we are.. and the rest of the world are as well

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

"Everytime" is hyperbole. Most of the time is not. And if you don't consider sending a double-team at a player as he penetrates to be "double-teaming", then we have fundamental differences in the way we understand the game of basketball. They made Kobe work to get the ball, then turned him into a jumpshooter once he had it. Great team defense by the Pistons.

The fact that the Lakers choked away a lead reflects poorly on Kobe Bryant, and it takes away from his reputation as one of the great clutch players in the NBA. And getting blown out by 39 points in an elimination game is just as bad, if not worse.

But it doesn't mean that Kobe isn't clutch. That argument is no more sound than saying that he's not clutch because he's missed some game winners.

And if your problem is with the media's perception of Kobe as the greatest clutch performer in the NBA, then I'd suggest that you focus your energies elsewhere. The media and the NBA have spent a lot of time and money building "Kobe Bryant". Of course they're going to prop him up at every turn.

I said doubling or helping when someone drive is not the same as doubling when he gets the ball. Thats what I mean. They not only made kobe a jump shooter, they made everyone on the lakers a jump shooter. But Kobe is not any other player. He was expected to be able to do more in a sense.

If you read what I just wrote and through out the thread, I did not say kobe sucks. He is a good player. BEST players in the clutch, no I don't think so.

And yes, if you agree that that media does build up kobe to more than he is then we do agree on some things. I'm not trying to change the media. Just having a discussion among bball fans. cheers

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Not just fans.. but experts, players and coaches too..

Lakers are one of the most popular teams in the world, you are seeing the same games we are.. and the rest of the world are as well

Yea, though most people don't see all 82 games plus playoffs unless they live in LA. Unless they are a hardcore fan and pays for league pass. (Something I have to do to watch the Kings). I don't think the coaches and commentators watches every laker games out there. They catch sportscenter just like everyone else. But doesn't really matter with me, I see your point.

 

[Superman]

I said doubling or helping when someone drive is not the same as doubling when he gets the ball. Thats what I mean. They not only made kobe a jump shooter, they made everyone on the lakers a jump shooter. But Kobe is not any other player. He was expected to be able to do more in a sense.

I don't know what he was expected to do. He forced some shots (like he always has his entire career), he over-penetrated and got some shots blocked, he threw the ball away, all that because the Pistons were so good defensively that they are one of the only teams in recent history to win a championship without a single top 20 player on their roster (arguable).

He was able to find some teammates out of double-teams, but the Pistons rotations were so good, and their defenders were so long, that they were able to close out and force contested jumpers, throwing the shooters out of rhythm. The outcome may have been different had Karl Malone been healthy, because his presence on the floor made a big difference on that Laker offense (karma is a mother, though).

I considered that series to be a great example of how to defend a team with a good post player and good wing players, because the Pistons threw off a juggernaut offense by playing good, fundamental defense and keeping it simple. I guess you considered it to be an example of Kobe choking. I didn't see it that way.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I don't know what he was expected to do. He forced some shots (like he always has his entire career), he over-penetrated and got some shots blocked, he threw the ball away, all that because the Pistons were so good defensively that they are one of the only teams in recent history to win a championship without a single top 20 player on their roster (arguable).

He was able to find some teammates out of double-teams, but the Pistons rotations were so good, and their defenders were so long, that they were able to close out and force contested jumpers, throwing the shooters out of rhythm. The outcome may have been different had Karl Malone been healthy, because his presence on the floor made a big difference on that Laker offense (karma is a mother, though).

I considered that series to be a great example of how to defend a team with a good post player and good wing players, because the Pistons threw off a juggernaut offense by playing good, fundamental defense and keeping it simple. I guess you considered it to be an example of Kobe choking. I didn't see it that way.

Thats what seperates kobe from the true legends. The BEST finds a way. Magic, Bird and the likes played against tough teams in their own time. Lets not forget the D was much more physical also. But they find a way to win. Kobe doesn't have the refuse to lose in big games mentallity that the media also paint him to have. MJ would not blow a 24 pt lead in the finals. Or he won't shoot 27% in a finals elimination game. Just no way it would happen. The best of an era is suppose to find a way to win. Because he didn't come through when it counts the most, thats not really being clutch to me.