Is it time to question mental toughness?

[RageMe11]

I do think that mental toughness might be the problem with our team right now, but seriously, our defense has been horrible. What i think has happened is that the teams we are facing have looked at the king's game tapes and seen that if they go inside the paint that there is no one that is going to stop them, they can almost get in there and score at will, and if for some reason they don't score or miss a shot, they can always get the offensive board, because as we know, our team has some issues with rebounding as well. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that our team is for some reason, almost "afraid" of the paint. Webb thinks he is reggie miller this year and brad has no post moves. so why not let webb play and pass out of the block, just like vlade did. wouldn't that put us back to our normal playing ability? although offense has not really been our problem, but in the fourth quarter i think that we should have webb in the post. Why won't webb go down in the block? Does it hurt his knee too much night in and night out? These are questions i wish could be answered. I am not trying to bring down the team, just pointing out a few things that have been, in my opinion a problem. Not meant to be any type of player bashing.

 

[Bricklayer]

The pattern all season long has been that Webb's post play/jumper ratio has seemed to directly mirror how well his knee has been feeling. There have been games where its jumper jumper jumper where I've been able to diagnose soreness in the knee without even seeing a limp.

But of course while its absolutely true that we need him in the post because he is literally the only player on our team capable of giving us that presence, its also true that this is a relatively minor issue that you worry more about if you're cruising along and fighting for top playoff positions. Fact of the matter is that we've been averaging an obscene number of points on offense in the last few weeks, and have still fallen on hard times because we're being lit up like a pinball machine at the other end of the floor. If we don't make major improvements in both rebounding and defense, our inside/outside offensive mix isn't going to matter.

 

[Diabeticwonder]

That may play out that way, but Pat Riley, with an assistant coaching staff of Gregg Popovich, Jerry Sloan and Mike Tyson couldn't make these guys into a defensive or rebounding juggernaught. Nobody on the team other than Tag, who NEEDS to be on the floor if we stand pat, has ever, for any coach, been a stalwart in etiher area. First and foremost this is a personnel issue. Show me the great rebounder on our team who's not rebounding now. Show me the defensive stopper who quit stopping once he hit Sacto. Outside of Peja's boardwork, which may or may not be being caused by issues he's having, there is not a single core King who's rebounding/defensive ability is surprising or out of character this year. This is who they are and have always been.

Its actually more Petrie's fault than anything else -- we have built a team here around the Princeton high skill offensive concept -- passers and shooters first. But its just gone too far now. As is often the case high skill passers/shooters have a tendency to either be soft or unathletic, or both. And at this point we've piled up so much of those traits in our core players that we almost CAN'T be a top defensive or rebounding team. Chris is never going to be able to get off the floor fast enough to block large numbers of shots again, Brad is the world's shortest and least intimidating 7 footer -- plays closer to 6'8". Ditto for Darius as a 6'9" guy, except he plays at about 6'6". Peja shies away from anything that requires physical contact. Cat is undersized and offensive minded, Bibby is underquick and the same. None of those guys has EVER for ANYBODY demonstrated the traits we are looking to find more of (well, Webb was once a very good shotblocker, but physically that's not happening anymore).

I agree that Petrie may be the one to blame for assembling a team of passers, shooters, etc, without any defensive or rebounding wiz. However, not only do the Kings play poor individual defense, but their team defense is horrible and in order to play good team defense you don't necessarily need to have 5 "stoppers" on the court at the same time. Team defense as well as rebounding have a lot to do with effort and hustle and IMO I just think that this team is not reaching its potential on the defensive end of the floor and the same can be said for rebounding. Laziness is the building block for bad defense and bad rebounding and I think that the Kings have been outright lazy with respect to both of these areas.

 

[RageMe11]

The pattern all season long has been that Webb's post play/jumper ratio has seemed to directly mirror how well his knee has been feeling. There have been games where its jumper jumper jumper where I've been able to diagnose soreness in the knee without even seeing a limp.

But of course while its absolutely true that we need him in the post because he is literally the only player on our team capable of giving us that presence, its also true that this is a relatively minor issue that you worry more about if you're cruising along and fighting for top playoff positions. Fact of the matter is that we've been averaging an obscene number of points on offense in the last few weeks, and have still fallen on hard times because we're being lit up like a pinball machine at the other end of the floor. If we don't make major improvements in both rebounding and defense, our inside/outside offensive mix isn't going to matter.

thank you brick, you answered a lot of my questions...but do you think that teams have noticed that they can just score at will in the paint, and that's why we are giving up so many more points?

 

[gman23]

For those who watched and played basketball we all know that everyone has their strenghts and weaknesses and as players you play to your strength. For examle Bibby is a shooter, he should very rarely post-up, Webber is 6-10 he should spend 85 percent posting-up and 15 percent jump shooting. Play towards what you have to work with that's a higher rating, its produces the best results. I mean why does a 7 foot center try to bring the ball up the court???????? stupid. Again, playing smart in any professinal sport means a better chance of winning. The King players need to start playing smart and stop trying to make the highlight films.....

 

[Bricklayer]

For those who watched and played basketball we all know that everyone has their strenghts and weaknesses and as players you play to your strength. For examle Bibby is a shooter, he should very rarely post-up, Webber is 6-10 he should spend 85 percent posting-up and 15 percent jump shooting. Play towards what you have to work with that's a higher rating, its produces the best results. I mean why does a 7 foot center try to bring the ball up the court???????? stupid. Again, playing smart in any professinal sport means a better chance of winning. The King players need to start playing smart and stop trying to make the highlight films.....

Under your theory, Brad is 7ft so he should spend 100% of his time posting up too, right?

Not how it works. Height alone does not determine where you should play. Peja's 6'9" tall, I would like to see him develop a post move, but his height does not dictate that he should be playing in the post when his talents obviously lay elsewhere.

Furthermore, the Princeton offense dictates that big guys play outside. Feel free to go to Petey Carril and inform him that he just doesn't understand hoops.

I beleive Webb should try to get int he post more, but there are a lot of things weighing against it. The offense we run, the health of his kness, the fact that he has never been a truly great post player -- indeed this year his hook might be the best its ever been -- and the fact that what makes him a great player is the multifaceted nature of his game. he gets the mix wrong sometimes, but the fact that he CAN beat you in so many ways is what sets him at a higher plane than a one-dimensional guy.

 

[shaka zulu]

That may play out that way, but Pat Riley, with an assistant coaching staff of Gregg Popovich, Jerry Sloan and Mike Tyson couldn't make these guys into a defensive or rebounding juggernaught. Nobody on the team other than Tag, who NEEDS to be on the floor if we stand pat, has ever, for any coach, been a stalwart in etiher area. First and foremost this is a personnel issue. Show me the great rebounder on our team who's not rebounding now. Show me the defensive stopper who quit stopping once he hit Sacto. Outside of Peja's boardwork, which may or may not be being caused by issues he's having, there is not a single core King who's rebounding/defensive ability is surprising or out of character this year. This is who they are and have always been.

Its actually more Petrie's fault than anything else -- we have built a team here around the Princeton high skill offensive concept -- passers and shooters first. But its just gone too far now. As is often the case high skill passers/shooters have a tendency to either be soft or unathletic, or both. And at this point we've piled up so much of those traits in our core players that we almost CAN'T be a top defensive or rebounding team. Chris is never going to be able to get off the floor fast enough to block large numbers of shots again, Brad is the world's shortest and least intimidating 7 footer -- plays closer to 6'8". Ditto for Darius as a 6'9" guy, except he plays at about 6'6". Peja shies away from anything that requires physical contact. Cat is undersized and offensive minded, Bibby is underquick and the same. None of those guys has EVER for ANYBODY demonstrated the traits we are looking to find more of (well, Webb was once a very good shotblocker, but physically that's not happening anymore).

Defense and rebounding are not based on athleticism and quickness all the time.Back in the day defense and rebounding were taught by establishing position and rebounding also was taught by boxing out positioning.When you boxed your man out the right way you were in a better position to rebound and the opposition were in a better position to foul you by jumping over the back.The same with defense just because you have a player that is quick and can jump out the GYM that doesn't make this player Good on defense.Alot of the times these quick players are the worst of defenders because tehy are constantly gambling and being out of defensive position as a result of taking too many risks.Take stephom marbury quick athletic strong slam dunking point guard.This same stephon marbury is a terrible defensive player and can be worse than mike bibby he doesn't play any defense becuase he has no desire to play at that end of the floor athletic abilty and all.

Now take john stockton superior defensive player at the point guard spot couldn't dunk or jump out the gym like a marbury but was better at the defensive end becuase he had desire to play defense at a high level.Johgn stockton matched up against both backcourt positions.He gaurded byron scott at the #2 and even defended magic at times.When they played the SUNS he wasd guarding kevin johnson and you know how fats KJ was.He defended time hardaway the list can go on and on.The point here is that mike bibby has the same or if not more athletic ability that john stockton had.The difference between the two players is john stockton's desire to defend and mike bibby's unwillingness to try at that end of the floor.There is no exuse for not being able to establish defensive position other than the player has n odesire to compete at that are of the game.We have to remember there is not that much room to shake and bake on THE basketball floor,So basically it is one or two pet moves a offesive playercan really use out there.I have seen mike bibby speed dribble tHE BASKETBALL up the floor in a burts of speed.This same quickness he uses to dribble th basketball up the floor can be used to establish defensive position on the defensive end of the game.He must doesn't watch alot of Tape on defense because if he Did he would see that it is only a few pet moves the Good offensive players use to get the defender off balance.

Focus and discipline can help an make up for the lack of speed and quickness.Those things focus and discipline good supplements to a slow defender.But most importantly DESIRE.let's take derek fisher not a very fast player watch him push the ball up the floor,mike bibby will destroy derek fisher in a 94 feet end to end speed dribble race.The difference netween the two defensively is derek fisher's willingness to compete at that part of the game.Derek fisher play's better defense becuase he plays by position rather than quickness he beats people to the spots.

There is no excuse for bad rebound postioning.The kings don't put body's on the opposition.Webber stands straight up statue ever defensive rebounding posession he doesn't put his body and buttocks into the boxing out effort.Therefore quick jumpers don't just use the athleticism but they use Webb's horrible positioning in getting around and grabbing that Board.

Another thing with rebounding is the time factor.anyone can rebound alot of the time the Board comes off not high but in wierd areas on the court the great rebounders had good reflexes to the ball and timing was critical in getting that rebound.They taught back in the day that it wasn't jumping ability that made the rebounder but timing and positioning.The same with defense if you mentally can work on anticipating the offense players move that along with discpline can help negate the quickness and jumping abilty a player may lack.

Look at the 80's boston celtics.Bird couldn't out jump domique wilkins,carr,willis,cliff levingston,and all the rest of those great alanta hawks leapers but he was a better rebounder than them all.Mchale Bird and parish used postioning and the correct art of boxing out to out rebound their opponents.Bird would out rebound kareem james worthy and anyone else athletic that the lakers put out there against him.Robert parish couldn't out jump daryl dawkins but he damm sure out rebounded him everytime.Bill laimbeer not a great athlete but he was league leader in rebounds every season.Bill used positioning and desire to ge the ball.Moses used to say to be a great rebounder you had to want to go and get the basketball.

There is no reason the kings shouldn't be better at rebounding and defense.These two areas of the game are twin sisters it all comes down to desire and effort and the fundamenatl skills to box out.Webber is a better athlete now than mchale in his prime,Webb and mchale both have long wing span.The difference is mchale had a desire to get his butt in postion to gaurd and protect the paint.Webber moves out the way and parts the red sea.

What the kings must do is have more discipline on offense and defense.offensively they take to many quick shots and they are not patient enough.The princenton offense was design to wear the defense down with ball movement.The princeton carrill TEAMS wouldn't even shoot the rock to the last seconds of the shot clock.The kings don't play to the streghths of the players they have,they must take better shots and take better care of the ball.If they do this they have the players that can pass and wear the defense out because most TEAMS especially the SONICS and SUNS hate playing defense a full 20 seconds they loose focus and have youg undiscipline players that will get bored athletic and all and they will miss an assignment defensively.The kings must do this to these TEAMS make them get tired of Defense and at the same time you are getting a good shot probably more and likely a uncontested shot and at the same time you are pulling them out of what they want to do and that is hurry up beat you down the floor.If the kings have the offensive patience they will blow the SUNS and SONICS out the building.Those two TEAMS are not patient they are young and not disciplined.

Kings can get them impatient and frustrated and at the same time they can use their high powered offensive skills to slow the game down and get back defensively from valueing the basketball and taking good high percentage shots.Then when they work on boxing out and putting bodies on the opponents and sending all 5 guys to the rim, they work on the postioning defense which is the basic blue print skills to make better defenders.They hopefully can improve and get The game back working for them.

 

[rexb_kings]

Defense and rebounding are not based on athleticism and quickness all the time.Back in the day defense and rebounding were taught by establishing position and rebounding also was taught by boxing out positioning.When you boxed your man out the right way you were in a better position to rebound and the opposition were in a better position to foul you by jumping over the back.The same with defense just because you have a player that is quick and can jump out the GYM that doesn't make this player Good on defense.Alot of the times these quick players are the worst of defenders because tehy are constantly gambling and being out of defensive position as a result of taking too many risks.Take stephom marbury quick athletic strong slam dunking point guard.This same stephon marbury is a terrible defensive player and can be worse than mike bibby he doesn't play any defense becuase he has no desire to play at that end of the floor athletic abilty and all.

Now take john stockton superior defensive player at the point guard spot couldn't dunk or jump out the gym like a marbury but was better at the defensive end becuase he had desire to play defense at a high level.Johgn stockton matched up against both backcourt positions.He gaurded byron scott at the #2 and even defended magic at times.When they played the SUNS he wasd guarding kevin johnson and you know how fats KJ was.He defended time hardaway the list can go on and on.The point here is that mike bibby has the same or if not more athletic ability that john stockton had.The difference between the two players is john stockton's desire to defend and mike bibby's unwillingness to try at that end of the floor.There is no exuse for not being able to establish defensive position other than the player has n odesire to compete at that are of the game.We have to remember there is not that much room to shake and bake on THE basketball floor,So basically it is one or two pet moves a offesive playercan really use out there.I have seen mike bibby speed dribble tHE BASKETBALL up the floor in a burts of speed.This same quickness he uses to dribble th basketball up the floor can be used to establish defensive position on the defensive end of the game.He must doesn't watch alot of Tape on defense because if he Did he would see that it is only a few pet moves the Good offensive players use to get the defender off balance.

Focus and discipline can help an make up for the lack of speed and quickness.Those things focus and discipline good supplements to a slow defender.But most importantly DESIRE.let's take derek fisher not a very fast player watch him push the ball up the floor,mike bibby will destroy derek fisher in a 94 feet end to end speed dribble race.The difference netween the two defensively is derek fisher's willingness to compete at that part of the game.Derek fisher play's better defense becuase he plays by position rather than quickness he beats people to the spots.

There is no excuse for bad rebound postioning.The kings don't put body's on the opposition.Webber stands straight up statue ever defensive rebounding posession he doesn't put his body and buttocks into the boxing out effort.Therefore quick jumpers don't just use the athleticism but they use Webb's horrible positioning in getting around and grabbing that Board.

Another thing with rebounding is the time factor.anyone can rebound alot of the time the Board comes off not high but in wierd areas on the court the great rebounders had good reflexes to the ball and timing was critical in getting that rebound.They taught back in the day that it wasn't jumping ability that made the rebounder but timing and positioning.The same with defense if you mentally can work on anticipating the offense players move that along with discpline can help negate the quickness and jumping abilty a player may lack.

Look at the 80's boston celtics.Bird couldn't out jump domique wilkins,carr,willis,cliff levingston,and all the rest of those great alanta hawks leapers but he was a better rebounder than them all.Mchale Bird and parish used postioning and the correct art of boxing out to out rebound their opponents.Bird would out rebound kareem james worthy and anyone else athletic that the lakers put out there against him.Robert parish couldn't out jump daryl dawkins but he damm sure out rebounded him everytime.Bill laimbeer not a great athlete but he was league leader in rebounds every season.Bill used positioning and desire to ge the ball.Moses used to say to be a great rebounder you had to want to go and get the basketball.

There is no reason the kings shouldn't be better at rebounding and defense.These two areas of the game are twin sisters it all comes down to desire and effort and the fundamenatl skills to box out.Webber is a better athlete now than mchale in his prime,Webb and mchale both have long wing span.The difference is mchale had a desire to get his butt in postion to gaurd and protect the paint.Webber moves out the way and parts the red sea.

What the kings must do is have more discipline on offense and defense.offensively they take to many quick shots and they are not patient enough.The princenton offense was design to wear the defense down with ball movement.The princeton carrill TEAMS wouldn't even shoot the rock to the last seconds of the shot clock.The kings don't play to the streghths of the players they have,they must take better shots and take better care of the ball.If they do this they have the players that can pass and wear the defense out because most TEAMS especially the SONICS and SUNS hate playing defense a full 20 seconds they loose focus and have youg undiscipline players that will get bored athletic and all and they will miss an assignment defensively.The kings must do this to these TEAMS make them get tired of Defense and at the same time you are getting a good shot probably more and likely a uncontested shot and at the same time you are pulling them out of what they want to do and that is hurry up beat you down the floor.If the kings have the offensive patience they will blow the SUNS and SONICS out the building.Those two TEAMS are not patient they are young and not disciplined.

Kings can get them impatient and frustrated and at the same time they can use their high powered offensive skills to slow the game down and get back defensively from valueing the basketball and taking good high percentage shots.Then when they work on boxing out and putting bodies on the opponents and sending all 5 guys to the rim, they work on the postioning defense which is the basic blue print skills to make better defenders.They hopefully can improve and get The game back working for them.

wow shaka_zulu! great post! even the previous one regarding Peja...

 

[webberfan]

wow shaka_zulu! great post! even the previous one regarding Peja...

agreed. our team sucks ... right now. no other way to say it. and no, it doesn't mean i'm not supporting them, etc.

hopefully, they come back from the much needed break and play with more resolve and show signs that they are going to use the remainder of this season to work on the areas that have always plagued them.

go kings! i know you guys can play better than this.

 

[WhyNotUs?]

dang, and I thought Voison had a poison pen where the Kings are concerned. They lack desire, are not competitive, have a too quick offense, lack fundamental skills ......... hmmmmmmmm surprised they managed 33 so far.

 

[VF21]

we just suck. end of story. WE SUCK! i hope we can go back to how we used to play. the all star break is much needed.

WE might suck but the KINGS will be fine.

 

[albeitrue]

Defense and rebounding are not based on athleticism and quickness all the time.Back in the day defense and rebounding were taught by establishing position and rebounding also was taught by boxing out positioning.When you boxed your man out the right way you were in a better position to rebound and the opposition were in a better position to foul you by jumping over the back.The same with defense just because you have a player that is quick and can jump out the GYM that doesn't make this player Good on defense.Alot of the times these quick players are the worst of defenders because tehy are constantly gambling and being out of defensive position as a result of taking too many risks.Take stephom marbury quick athletic strong slam dunking point guard.This same stephon marbury is a terrible defensive player and can be worse than mike bibby he doesn't play any defense becuase he has no desire to play at that end of the floor athletic abilty and all.

Now take john stockton superior defensive player at the point guard spot couldn't dunk or jump out the gym like a marbury but was better at the defensive end becuase he had desire to play defense at a high level.Johgn stockton matched up against both backcourt positions.He gaurded byron scott at the #2 and even defended magic at times.When they played the SUNS he wasd guarding kevin johnson and you know how fats KJ was.He defended time hardaway the list can go on and on.The point here is that mike bibby has the same or if not more athletic ability that john stockton had.The difference between the two players is john stockton's desire to defend and mike bibby's unwillingness to try at that end of the floor.There is no exuse for not being able to establish defensive position other than the player has n odesire to compete at that are of the game.We have to remember there is not that much room to shake and bake on THE basketball floor,So basically it is one or two pet moves a offesive playercan really use out there.I have seen mike bibby speed dribble tHE BASKETBALL up the floor in a burts of speed.This same quickness he uses to dribble th basketball up the floor can be used to establish defensive position on the defensive end of the game.He must doesn't watch alot of Tape on defense because if he Did he would see that it is only a few pet moves the Good offensive players use to get the defender off balance.

Focus and discipline can help an make up for the lack of speed and quickness.Those things focus and discipline good supplements to a slow defender.But most importantly DESIRE.let's take derek fisher not a very fast player watch him push the ball up the floor,mike bibby will destroy derek fisher in a 94 feet end to end speed dribble race.The difference netween the two defensively is derek fisher's willingness to compete at that part of the game.Derek fisher play's better defense becuase he plays by position rather than quickness he beats people to the spots.

There is no excuse for bad rebound postioning.The kings don't put body's on the opposition.Webber stands straight up statue ever defensive rebounding posession he doesn't put his body and buttocks into the boxing out effort.Therefore quick jumpers don't just use the athleticism but they use Webb's horrible positioning in getting around and grabbing that Board.

Another thing with rebounding is the time factor.anyone can rebound alot of the time the Board comes off not high but in wierd areas on the court the great rebounders had good reflexes to the ball and timing was critical in getting that rebound.They taught back in the day that it wasn't jumping ability that made the rebounder but timing and positioning.The same with defense if you mentally can work on anticipating the offense players move that along with discpline can help negate the quickness and jumping abilty a player may lack.

Look at the 80's boston celtics.Bird couldn't out jump domique wilkins,carr,willis,cliff levingston,and all the rest of those great alanta hawks leapers but he was a better rebounder than them all.Mchale Bird and parish used postioning and the correct art of boxing out to out rebound their opponents.Bird would out rebound kareem james worthy and anyone else athletic that the lakers put out there against him.Robert parish couldn't out jump daryl dawkins but he damm sure out rebounded him everytime.Bill laimbeer not a great athlete but he was league leader in rebounds every season.Bill used positioning and desire to ge the ball.Moses used to say to be a great rebounder you had to want to go and get the basketball.

There is no reason the kings shouldn't be better at rebounding and defense.These two areas of the game are twin sisters it all comes down to desire and effort and the fundamenatl skills to box out.Webber is a better athlete now than mchale in his prime,Webb and mchale both have long wing span.The difference is mchale had a desire to get his butt in postion to gaurd and protect the paint.Webber moves out the way and parts the red sea.

What the kings must do is have more discipline on offense and defense.offensively they take to many quick shots and they are not patient enough.The princenton offense was design to wear the defense down with ball movement.The princeton carrill TEAMS wouldn't even shoot the rock to the last seconds of the shot clock.The kings don't play to the streghths of the players they have,they must take better shots and take better care of the ball.If they do this they have the players that can pass and wear the defense out because most TEAMS especially the SONICS and SUNS hate playing defense a full 20 seconds they loose focus and have youg undiscipline players that will get bored athletic and all and they will miss an assignment defensively.The kings must do this to these TEAMS make them get tired of Defense and at the same time you are getting a good shot probably more and likely a uncontested shot and at the same time you are pulling them out of what they want to do and that is hurry up beat you down the floor.If the kings have the offensive patience they will blow the SUNS and SONICS out the building.Those two TEAMS are not patient they are young and not disciplined.

Kings can get them impatient and frustrated and at the same time they can use their high powered offensive skills to slow the game down and get back defensively from valueing the basketball and taking good high percentage shots.Then when they work on boxing out and putting bodies on the opponents and sending all 5 guys to the rim, they work on the postioning defense which is the basic blue print skills to make better defenders.They hopefully can improve and get The game back working for them.

shaka zulu thank you very much for teaching something here.

I caught some of the 1987 All-Star game tonight and was able to recognize what you spoke of; positioning and boxing out specifically. Makes the game so much more enjoyable when play can be dissected intelligently.