Is it Possible that the players just aren't that good?

[Npliam]

I don't think Smart is a great coach but I don't think that all of the criticism that he receives is fair either. The players just don't play smart basketball, don't play as a team and don't shoot well.

If Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, Greg Popovich or Rick Addleman were coaching this team they would be better but how much better? How long before the players tuned them out? How long before the "stars" wanted out? Would DMC or Thornton listen and play the way those coaches wanted?

Fans look at the plays (or lack of) being run and think that is what coach wanted them to run. How do we know that the player are doing what the coach wants them to do? How do know if these same players would run stuff for other coaches?

There seems to be some talented players in Sacramento but they aren't good players yet.

 

[Heuge]

Cousins and Evans are very good. There are some other good players on this team. This team is horribly, if not laughably constructed.

I beleive a high quality coach could get alot more out of this team.

That said, I am not willing to throw in the towel on this season just yet. We play 3 straight game against the other teams home opener. Cruel scheduling.

Oh, and we have more talent and, I would propose, good players then the Jazz. (its all about team construction/chemistry)

 

[Bricklayer]

If Adelman were coaching this team we would be a playoff contender. Guaranteed. Might be too young to make it in, but he's never had a team that looked this confused. Coaching makes a huge difference for a young team. Which makes our ultra cheap attemtps to hire nobodies at pennies on the dollar during this period all the more ironic. The Celtics can coach themselves. They've been around the block. Kids need structure.

 

[beb0p]

I've been saying for a while - don't blame the coach, blame the talent and the roster. The Kings have Cousins, Reke, Thornton... and then a bunch of scrubs and bench players. The roster makes no sense - two of your best guys play the same position - meaning either you play one out of position or there are always three bench guys in the starting lineup. And to top it off, every guard on the roster is a shoot-first ask question later player. That includes IT, who in every other team would be a change of pace scorer (a la Nate Robinson) off the bench, but here he's asked to set the tempo and run the team as a starter because he's the closest thing to a real PG on this team.

Plus, the FO came into the season acknowledging they need shot-blocker and three point shooter (one capable of playing SF), and they got neither. It's not as if the FO didnt' have the opportunity or was turned down, they have ample chances to fill those needs and chose not to. Except for a half-hearted attempt to sign Ryan Anderson (huh? to play SF?), they did nothing.

So we're left with a team that is devoid of talent and the pieces don't fit. We need a PG, SF, and PF (starting caliber ones) plus good locker room vets; and will probably take a while to find those - for the Kings don't have trade assets aside from Thornton/Reke, no ending contract aside from Garcia's meager 6 mil, nor the stability to attract good free agents.

Yes, I think a great coach could get a few more wins out of this team and make the offense/defense at least look NBA caliber. But he could never make this into a competitive team, you need talent to do that, not coaching.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

the players cant do much when they are on the bench in the 4th quarter, and scrubs that shouldnt even be in the league are playing their minutes. gacia and jimmer......

 

[Bricklayer]

I've been saying for a while - don't blame the coach, blame the talent and the roster. The Kings have Cousins, Reke, Thornton... and then a bunch of scrubs and bench players. The roster makes no sense - two of your best guys play the same position - meaning either you play one out of position or there are always three bench guys in the starting lineup. And to top it off, every guard on the roster is a shoot-first ask question later player. That includes IT, who in every other team would be a change of pace scorer (a la Nate Robinson) off the bench, but here he's asked to set the tempo and run the team as a starter because he's the closest thing to a real PG on this team.

Plus, the FO came into the season acknowledging they need shot-blocker and three point shooter (one capable of playing SF), and they got neither. It's not as if the FO didnt' have the opportunity or was turned down, they have ample chances to fill those needs and chose not to. Except for a half-hearted attempt to sign Ryan Anderson (huh? to play SF?), they did nothing.

So we're left with a team that is devoid of talent and the pieces don't fit. We need a PG, SF, and PF (starting caliber ones) plus good locker room vets; and will probably take a while to find those - for the Kings don't have trade assets aside from Thornton/Reke, no ending contract aside from Garcia's meager 6 mil, nor the stability to attract good free agents.

Yes, I think a great coach could get a few more wins out of this team and make the offense/defense at least look NBA caliber. But he could never make this into a competitive team, you need talent to do that, not coaching.

so you think Minny anbd Chicago beat us of the great talent they had on the floor? Hardly.

 

[rainmaker]

I've been saying for a while - don't blame the coach, blame the talent and the roster.

How how roster fits together, which isn't that great, and in-game management of the players we do have are two separate issues. Constantly iso'ing Cuz 20ft out with no movement/options is not a personnel issue. Calling iso's for JJ/JT/Outlaw is not a personnel issue. Not running MT off picks to get good looks is not a personnel issue. Having Barea have his way with IT/Brooks, and deciding to put Jimmer on him of all people is not a personnel issue. Sitting Reke/IT in favor of Jimmer/Cisco for long stretches is not a personnel issue. Not having any resemblance of a halfcourt offense, and constantly quick shooting and/or playing iso ball is not a personnel issue, as teams with comparable talent run much better half court offenses. Minn didn't have more talent than us on the floor yesterday, but their offense was much more fluid, and we happened to get lucky they missed a lot of open shots. Going small with Jimmer/MT/Cisco for extended minutes is not a personnel issue, when Reke/JJ are wasting away on the bench. When IT/Reke bring you back in the 3rd, sending them to the bench until the 3 and 5 min mark of the 4th respectively, is not a personnel issue. Pulling Reke when he was red hot against Chi and sitting him until the end of the 2nd, icing your own player, is not a personnel issue.

There's a difference between how our talent fits, and the use of said talent within a game.

 

[UK_King]

How how roster fits together, which isn't that great, and in-game management of the players we do have are two separate issues. Constantly iso'ing Cuz 20ft out with no movement/options is not a personnel issue. Calling iso's for JJ/JT/Outlaw is not a personnel issue. Not running MT off picks to get good looks is not a personnel issue. Having Barea have his way with IT/Brooks, and deciding to put Jimmer on him of all people is not a personnel issue. Sitting Reke/IT in favor of Jimmer/Cisco for long stretches is not a personnel issue. Not having any resemblance of a halfcourt offense, and constantly quick shooting and/or playing iso ball is not a personnel issue, as teams with comparable talent run much better half court offenses. Minn didn't have more talent than us on the floor yesterday, but their offense was much more fluid, and we happened to get lucky they missed a lot of open shots. Going small with Jimmer/MT/Cisco for extended minutes is not a personnel issue, when Reke/JJ are wasting away on the bench.

There's a difference between how our talent fits, and the use of said talent within a game.

Bang on.

This team isn't put together well, but within the melting pool we have a very capable few who could do things in this league IMO.

We know Cuz can do it (most of the time)
We know reke can do it (most of the time)
IT - tick
MT - tick
JT - tick
Hayes - tick

I mean these are all good quality players who have a particular skill set, we're playing anti to their skill sets right now, simple as that. Lets see what tonight brings.

 

[beb0p]

so you think Minny anbd Chicago beat us of the great talent they had on the floor? Hardly.

No question that Minny and Chicago are more talented than we are, no question, even with their injuries. You may have to take off the rose colored glasses. I think any reasonable NBA fan would chuckle when they hear "talent" and "Kings" in the same sentence.

Minny has Roy/Ak47/Barea plus useful role players like Ridnour/Steisma/Petkovic. They have a much more balanced team plus any one of Roy/AK47/Barea can start for this team right now.

Chicago is even higher on the talent chart - Noah/Boozer/Rip Hamilton/Deng; you're talking four former or near All-Star; plus Gibson and Hinrich off the bench - two guys who'd start for the Kings if they're in Sacramento.

 

[Bricklayer]

No question that Minny and Chicago are more talented than we are, no question, even with their injuries. You may have to take off the rose colored glasses. I think any reasonable NBA fan would chuckle when they hear "talent" and "Kings" in the same sentence.

Minny has Roy/Ak47/Barea plus useful role players like Ridnour/Steisma/Petkovic. They have a much more balanced team plus any one of Roy/AK47/Barea can start for this team right now.

Chicago is even higher on the talent chart - Noah/Boozer/Rip Hamilton/Deng; you're talking four former or near All-Star; plus Gibson and Hinrich off the bench - two guys who'd start for the Kings if they're in Sacramento.

I think you have a rather severe case of living in the past/seen them on TVitis.

Deng is a strong player, who btw did nothing to us that game as Reke shut him down. Boozer was an All Star. He's likely to get amnestied now however as he's fallen way off. Noah is a strong center, but no All Star. A 12 and 10 guy. And Rip is largely done, and hasn't played a major role in years.

On the other team you list ttwo guys who were out of the league last year and a 5'8" guy who was a bench player for a good team ni Dallas. Luke Ridnour? Really? Pek I like, but again he didn't do much. Steimsma was Boston's 3rd string center until injuries elevated him. I like him, but he's limited.

There is nothing much to either of those lists. Roleplayers, 6th men. A couple of washed up guys who were once major players years ago. Solid veteran teams, but sans their stars nothing more. Just because a guy was once on national TV doesn't make them "talented" today. Nor vice versa. But a good coach can take various peices and get whatever out of them there is to get. Use them correctly, give them a structure to maximize what they do well and minimize what they don't. Its how modest talent becomes a team. We are the opposite. Stacks of obvious talent never being used in ways to maximize their abilities.

 

[beb0p]

How how roster fits together, which isn't that great, and in-game management of the players we do have are two separate issues. Constantly iso'ing Cuz 20ft out with no movement/options is not a personnel issue. Calling iso's for JJ/JT/Outlaw is not a personnel issue. Not running MT off picks to get good looks is not a personnel issue. Having Barea have his way with IT/Brooks, and deciding to put Jimmer on him of all people is not a personnel issue. Sitting Reke/IT in favor of Jimmer/Cisco for long stretches is not a personnel issue. Not having any resemblance of a halfcourt offense, and constantly quick shooting and/or playing iso ball is not a personnel issue, as teams with comparable talent run much better half court offenses. Minn didn't have more talent than us on the floor yesterday, but their offense was much more fluid, and we happened to get lucky they missed a lot of open shots. Going small with Jimmer/MT/Cisco for extended minutes is not a personnel issue, when Reke/JJ are wasting away on the bench. When IT/Reke bring you back in the 3rd, sending them to the bench until the 3 and 5 min mark of the 4th respectively, is not a personnel issue. Pulling Reke when he was red hot against Chi and sitting him until the end of the 2nd, icing your own player, is not a personnel issue.

There's a difference between how our talent fits, and the use of said talent within a game.

Let's work this out point by point: who is supposed to guard Barea when you've already said IT/Brooks couldn't guard him? Jimmer was all we had left. Sorry. I'm sure Smart would have preferred to have Avery Bradley guard Barea, but too bad, he's not on the team.

I highly doubt any NBA coach would iso Cousins 20 ft from the perimeter. Maybe because Cousins had a habit of going to the perimeter when things aren't working inside? Did we not also see the same thing from Cousins under Westphal?

I did not see any iso being called for JJ, that was just JJ being selfish, which he's known to do. Ditto for Outlaw. You have to realize that not every bad shot is designed by the coach. Iso for JT, that was because it was the only mismatch we could find - and it actually worked until it didn't.

Sure I'd love to see someone setting pick for MT, but let's be real now, no one was passing the ball out there yesterday. How useful would setting picks be if our guys just take the first bad shot available? I am 100% certain Smart did not orchestrate an offense that involves one pass and then shoot. This team is selfish.

Now, I've also said that a good coach could get more out of this team. I'm not going to defend Smart because I don't think he's very good. But at the same time, you can't sugarcoat the fact that the talent on this team is also not very good.

 

[beb0p]

I think you have a rather severe case of living in the past/seen them on TVitis.

Deng is a strong player, who btw did nothing to us that game as Reke shut him down. Boozer was an All Star. He's likely to get amnestied now however as he's fallen way off. Noah is a strong center, but no All Star. A 12 and 10 guy. And Rip is largely done, and hasn't played a major role in years.

On the other team you list ttwo guys who were out of the league last year and a 5'8" guy who was a bench player for a good team ni Dallas. Luke Ridnour? Really? Pek I like, but again he didn't do much. Steimsma was Boston's 3rd string center until injuries elevated him. I like him, but he's limited.

There is nothing much to either of those lists. Roleplayers, 6th men. A couple of washed up guys who were once major players years ago. Solid veteran teams, but sans their stars nothing more. Just because a guy was once on national TV doesn't make them "talented" today. Nor vice versa. But a good coach can take various peices and get whatever out of them there is to get. Use them correctly, give them a structure to maximize what they do well and minimize what they don't. Its how modest talent becomes a team. We are the opposite. Stacks of obvious talent never being used in ways to maximize their abilities.

Isn't it a bit silly to trash a 5'8" PG who was absolutely unguardable last nite? Or a former All-Star who dictated the game and found open guys all nite as untalented?

You have a selective perception. Maybe in fantasy basketball Rip/Roy/Barea and the likes aren't very desirable but in real life those guys are damn good players. If Barea is on this team he'd be the starter.

To say that Deng did nothing so we should just disregard him is silly. If Deng is on this team he'd be starting SF.

On the flip side, using your way of logic - the Kings' team consist of a 5'9" starting PG who should come off the bench on a good team, a 5'11 guard who played in China last year, a 6'9" starting SF who came off the bench last year, started for a while, and got send back to the bench, a middling PF, and off the bench a career backup who last shot over 40% FG in 2009, and a 6'6" PF. Yeah. A lot of talent there.

 

[rainmaker]

Let's work this out point by point: who is supposed to guard Barea when you've already said IT/Brooks couldn't guard him? Jimmer was all we had left. Sorry. I'm sure Smart would have preferred to have Avery Bradley guard Barea, but too bad, he's not on the team.

Tyreke. Then MT at the 2, JJ at the 3. No reason we couldn't have tried for stretches in each half.

I highly doubt any NBA coach would iso Cousins 20 ft from the perimeter. Maybe because Cousins had a habit of going to the perimeter when things aren't working inside? Did we not also see the same thing from Cousins under Westphal?

Most coaches wouldn't, yet we've seen it repeatedly from Smart, last year, this preseason and now reg season. Remember Westy getting Cuz the ball closer to the paint, and Beno/Reke getting a backdoor or two every game off him? Westy used Cuz better.

I did not see any iso being called for JJ, that was just JJ being selfish, which he's known to do. Ditto for Outlaw. You have to realize that not every bad shot is designed by the coach. Iso for JT, that was because it was the only mismatch we could find - and it actually worked until it didn't.

Calling a timeout, and then immediately running an iso for JJ, which Smart did against Chi too, is not just a random bad shot by JJ.

Sure I'd love to see someone setting pick for MT, but let's be real now, no one was passing the ball out there yesterday. How useful would setting picks be if our guys just take the first bad shot available? I am 100% certain Smart did not orchestrate an offense that involves one pass and then shoot. This team is selfish.

Smart hasn't run MT off screens all preseason nor the first two games of the reg season. When there's no resemblance of a half court offense, it isn't all on the players.

Now, I've also said that a good coach could get more out of this team. I'm not going to defend Smart because I don't think he's very good. But at the same time, you can't sugarcoat the fact that the talent on this team is also not very good.

Talent doesn't fit great, but it can be used a hell of a lot better than it is.


Funny, how you suggest working this out point by point, then fail to even mention the sub patterns which have been horrendous.

 

[UK_King]

The players should know and be able to execute multiple sets. I don't see them actually running any sets where you see option 1, option 2 and then if nothings on a two man game.

The Triangle is supposed to promote ball movement and spacing, everyone knows that and we have neither right now. Can't remember any semblance of the triangle last night to be honest. I was actually encouraged by the increased ball movement in pre-season but now the goings got tough the balls stopped moving.

Cuz really needs to stop fading to the hoop on P&R too it's a low percentage play that does nothing, his screens are always weak as hell too, set a hard screen and pop.

 

[tyreeeke]

I don't think Smart is a great coach but I don't think that all of the criticism that he receives is fair either. The players just don't play smart basketball, don't play as a team and don't shoot well.

If Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, Greg Popovich or Rick Addleman were coaching this team they would be better but how much better? How long before the players tuned them out? How long before the "stars" wanted out? Would DMC or Thornton listen and play the way those coaches wanted?

Fans look at the plays (or lack of) being run and think that is what coach wanted them to run. How do we know that the player are doing what the coach wants them to do? How do know if these same players would run stuff for other coaches?

There seems to be some talented players in Sacramento but they aren't good players yet.

The team would be better with the best coaches out there but at the same time, the talent here is overrated. Tyreke has all the physical tools but not the mentality. Cuz has all the physical tools but not the mentality or emotional stability. It doesn't matter how good you look on paper if you don't have the overall ability. There is no team leader. There is no alpha male, just some pretenders.

 

[Kingster]

If this team had the some of the greatest coaches of all time I don't think they would change the fact that Cousins can't stay out of foul trouble and can't maintain his poise. Nor would they miraculously coach Tyreke into instantly being able to dribble toward the basket and take an open 15 footer and bury it. Nor would they be able to make Johnson instantly into a good outside shooter. This team has athletic talent, but it does have limitations. Would the greatest coaches of all time be able to take over at the beginning of the preseason and have this team come out of the gate with two wins? I doubt it. I'm not certain about it. But I do doubt it. I see too many dumb plays from players, plays that just require commons sense and a modicum of judgement; not plays that require great coaching. I still need to see this team for several more games to be certain about any of this, though. Two games is just not long enough.

 

[swisshh]

The team has talent, but none of it fits. Everyone was saying this before the season.

 

[Bricklayer]

On the flip side, using your way of logic - the Kings' team consist of a 5'9" starting PG who should come off the bench on a good team, a 5'11 guard who played in China last year, a 6'9" starting SF who came off the bench last year, started for a while, and got send back to the bench, a middling PF, and off the bench a career backup who last shot over 40% FG in 2009, and a 6'6" PF. Yeah. A lot of talent there.

Indeed, that is the core of our team.

 

[pshn80]

Yes, the team has talent which should play together in D lieague a couple of years. Adelman would have them finish higher. He would start and feature Brooks, Evans, Garcia, Hayes and Thom[son with Outlaw playing lots of muinutes. I think I will be happy to forego the Adelman touch and watch these young guys struggle, and struggle they will becouse they are not now good enough to play better consistently. Go KIngs!!!!!

 

[UK_King]

Most fans overrate their own team and underrate other teams players.

The reality is usually somewhere in the middle.

 

[Chupacabra]

I side with the anti coach crowd. Its the coaches job to organize his players in such a way that the team plays the most efficient basketball possible. Smart has been doing a ridiculous line up shuffling juggling act since he became the coach. Smart is also the wrong kind of coach for this team. Hes a players coach. Young teams like the kings need a coaches coach. A disciplinarian. I think smart would do a much better job with veteran players.

The lack of talent argument doesnt hold water. Cousins is a massively talented player. It can be argued that hes the most talented player in the league at his position. Reke is an extremely talented player with 1 big hole in his game. IT, Thornton and Brooks are all good players. Thompson and JJ are those role playing high energy players that every team needs. Robinson looked good in the minutes he played last night, snatching rebounds out of the air in a crowd of white jerseys. All of these players can produce big numbers. The coach however STILL hasnt found a way to use them efficiently and that is why it looks like the team doesnt fit.

 

[blackice]

What's up with Aaron Brooks playing opening night but then barely seeing anytime in favor of Jimmer....who didn't play the first game of the year AT ALL. I mean I know Brooks had an 0-5 statline but that just discourages a player even more knowing that he will get shanked for not producing and knowing in the back of his mind that coach doesn't trust that he will get over the slump. Sigh.

 

[swisshh]

Brooks was bad in the first half and Jimmer outplayed him in the first half, so Jimmer got Brooks minutes in the second half.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yeah, the players just aren't good. JJ Hickson putting up 14 and 12 last night for Portland was a fluke!! Remember he's just terrible that's all.

When you have a team full of players whose main value is to produce numbers instead of do role player things that make it easier on your star players this is what happens. They should be able to adjust but talent isn't the issue here, it's all fit, identity, and execution.

 

[rexb_kings]

It's the coaches job to make the players work together and bring out the best in them. That's why their are great coaches out there like Popovich, Jackson,Sloan and i'll add Adelman here etc. It's a matter of pushing the right buttons, finding the strengths of each players and make it work in a team environment. Since Kings have a lousy management and can't afford a good coach the Kings just sucks.

 

[beb0p]

Tyreke. Then MT at the 2, JJ at the 3. No reason we couldn't have tried for stretches in each half.

And here you are criticizing Smart for bad rotation, putting Reke at PG is one egregious move there buddy. You want to put a guy who hasn't practiced one single day at the point this season, in a new system no less, at the most important position on the floor. And you expect a good outcome. Sure.

Personally, I won't mind if they move Reke back to PG, even if just in spurts, just as a look see. But it's obvious that the organization as a whole has written that off.

Most coaches wouldn't, yet we've seen it repeatedly from Smart, last year, this preseason and now reg season. Remember Westy getting Cuz the ball closer to the paint, and Beno/Reke getting a backdoor or two every game off him? Westy used Cuz better.

What we've heard from Smart is that if Cousins isn't getting the ball in the post, something is wrong and he'll fix it. When Cousins has the ball up top, he needs to pass it and go post up. There is no rule that says he has to beat his defender and creates his own shot. That's on Cousins. He's forcing a lot of things instead of letting the game come to him.

Calling a timeout, and then immediately running an iso for JJ, which Smart did against Chi too, is not just a random bad shot by JJ.

I don't recall that play, but then again, I never said Smart is good coach.

Smart hasn't run MT off screens all preseason nor the first two games of the reg season. When there's no resemblance of a half court offense, it isn't all on the players.

It isn't all on the players but it isn't all on the coach either. As far as I'm concern neither parties can escape blame.

Talent doesn't fit great, but it can be used a hell of a lot better than it is.

No argument from me here. But maximizing talent is one thing, actually having talent is another. We don't have a lot of talent and we don't have a coach who can maximize the little we have.

Funny, how you suggest working this out point by point, then fail to even mention the sub patterns which have been horrendous.

That's because I'm not here to defend Smart. But I will say that I despise the talent that comes off the bench (except for Thornton) more than the sub pattern itself.

 

[beb0p]

Indeed, that is the core of our team.

Unfortunately, you snide remark notwithstanding, talent isn't just your top three guys against the other teams' top three guys. A typical rotation goes 8 to 9 guys deep. If this game is just 3 on 3 with no sub, the Kings actually would have a talented team.

 

[tyreeeke]

I side with the anti coach crowd. Its the coaches job to organize his players in such a way that the team plays the most efficient basketball possible. Smart has been doing a ridiculous line up shuffling juggling act since he became the coach. Smart is also the wrong kind of coach for this team. Hes a players coach. Young teams like the kings need a coaches coach. A disciplinarian. I think smart would do a much better job with veteran players.

The lack of talent argument doesnt hold water. Cousins is a massively talented player. It can be argued that hes the most talented player in the league at his position. Reke is an extremely talented player with 1 big hole in his game. IT, Thornton and Brooks are all good players. Thompson and JJ are those role playing high energy players that every team needs. Robinson looked good in the minutes he played last night, snatching rebounds out of the air in a crowd of white jerseys. All of these players can produce big numbers. The coach however STILL hasnt found a way to use them efficiently and that is why it looks like the team doesnt fit.

DC has a LOT of potential but WOW, you are severely overrating him at this point.

 

[Heuge]

DC has a LOT of potential but WOW, you are severely overrating him at this point.

Most talented at his position? Sure, how far of a stretch is that.

 

[Chupacabra]

DC has a LOT of potential but WOW, you are severely overrating him at this point.

That or youre severely misunderstanding/misreading the post. Name off some centers in the NBA that are more TALENTED than Cousins. The argument in this thread is about a lack of talent. There are many defensively capable players on this team and as of right now, only 3 games in, the Kings are one of the better defensive teams in the league. There are 5 players on the team that can easily score 20+ points on any given night. Those same players can all create their own shots. I think the team has plenty of talent.