IF/WHEN Detriot comes up short this year.
- Thread starter upinsmoke
- Start date
There aren't enough good teams in the east for their window to be closed. In fact, the only team they have to worry about is older than they are.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
don't worry about the pistons. dumars is doing a fantastic job incorporating the next gen pistons. jason maxiell and the other young bucks will be there to keep the ball rolling. all their big contracts expire around the same time. by the time they suck, they'll have alot of cap room to pursue some players.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Unless they get knocked out before the ECF probably keep it together for yet another run, add in maybe one major piece for some extra juice. I've made no secret of my belief that they were really never all that -- that their title was more flukey than anything else and that they have more the look of the eternal Ken Norman (very good boxer in the 70s who had the misfortune of coming up at the same time as Ali, Foreman, Frazier and Holmes, and who bounced around beating everybody else before losing to one or the other of the big boys every few years). They ARE the eternal contender, never champion by build. But until the EC gets not one, but TWO teams better than them, and they start getting knocked out before the ECF, its going to be hard for them to justify blowing it up when they repeatedly get within one series (and often one game) of the Finals every year.
kupman
Starter
There was and is nothing "flukey" about the Pistons. They have simply been a great basketball team. I am sorry if they do not fit what you think to be the standard model of a great NBA team. There is more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just a few years ago they completely dismantled a team that was thought of as being one the best NBA teams in the last 20 years that consisted of 2 of the best players in the league and the best coach since Red. The Pistons knocked the champ to canvas and the champ did not get up.
Calling it a fluke is robbing this team of the credit it deserves so you can sleep better at night.
Calling it a fluke is robbing this team of the credit it deserves so you can sleep better at night.
Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
Have to agree with KMart23 here; unlike the Spurs, Dumars has actually gotten some pretty solid young talent out there and Saunders actually is giving some of them well needed experience--I mean, Rodney Stuckey and Arron Afflalo (two rookies!?!) are part of their regular rotation, and that's for a championship-caliber team. In addition to that, Jason Maxiell was perceived as the heir apparent to Ben Wallace, and he still shows the amazing strength/athleticism combination reminiscent to Amare Stoudemire (of course, just much less skilled). Amir Johnson is a guy I've always liked for us, a shotblocker extraordinaire with leaping ability and agility for a big man, and he really has impressed in some of his games with them. Walter Herrmann was an underrated trade for the Pistons, and yeah, he's not young, but he's still unproven and can be a nice piece for them. Defense won't be a problem for this young core--Stuckey, Afflalo, Maxiell and Johnson already have defensive reputations, so once the older core of Billups, Hamilton, and Wallace leave, their defense shouldn't falter whatsoever.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
They won't fall short. 
I'd like to get Amir or Maxiell though.
I'd like to get Amir or Maxiell though.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm not sure what team you think they dismantled, but as I recall it was the squabbling, oft-injured over-the-hill-gang from L.A. A team that won all of 56 games that year. That had a completely unchampionship like +/- of +3.9 (that would rank 11th in the league this year). And that weebled and wobbled its way through the playoffs before collapsing in a heap of Ben Gay at the finish line.
Calling it a fluke is nothing more than knowing history. A history which has been repeatedly confirmed in subsequent years as the same team has come up short time and time again against a variety of challengers despite having the opportunity to advance through a conference of weak sisters in the consolation bracket every playoff season.
But until they fall behind more than just one East team I do not see them blowing it up -- until there is more than one team standing in the way you are always just one more fluke from another run. A sprained ankle, a brawl, whatever.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No -- as I have mentioned above I think they make a perfect eternal second place finisher. Tough (albeit prone to mental shakiness of late), talented, will challenge you...and then lose because they lack the extra spark of greatness. Test your mettle. Of course if you have it...well, they'll be back again next year.
sloter
Starter
So had the Pistons won that one game 7 then that would have made their season a fluke ?
coolhandluke
Starter
Sorry, Pistons were not a "flukey" team by any measure. They competed with the best of their time and won one championship and lost another closely on a Horry three. What more can you ask for? A team can only play with the competition of its time. I know disparaging the Lakers is fun and all but they were the best team in the WC playoffs that year -- not the lost identity Kings or the shaky Wolves or the complacent Spurs.
Yeah, the team that starts Derrick Martin at PG is a shaky one, no doubt. Same as the team that starts Slava at PF.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Perspective.
Detroit won it fair and square. They just would not have in almost any other year. Right place right time before slipping back into the eternal bridesmaid role their talent and structure predicates (and after the enthusiastic run after the big trade fro Sheed began to wear off). Not a question of them not being able to compete -- merely a question of teams like them never getting over the hump in any normal year. I'm not sure how beating a shaky Lakers team changes that.
Gargamel
Starter
Bricklayer said:
Observers hate making those claims by and large because it's not the other team's fault. I've yet to see an Isiah Thomas retrospective that actually mentions MVP Magic and Scott popping their hamstrings in 1989 (as if that didn't play a slight role). They just mention that Detroit swept the series while showing clips of Dumars hitting shots over David Rivers. Same way no one but LA fans care to recall Rasheed Wallace vs Stanislav Medvedenko.
+60 FTA advantage in a 5 gm series doesn't hurt either. That's like 26-9, you ain't gonna lose with that, I don't care who you are.
Gargamel
Starter
It's not the end-all be-all to your argument, but they weren't, trust me. The Spurs were the best in the West in 2004. It was a modern miracle that LA beat them (not even counting what Fisher did). Jackson had to go away from the tri for the only time in his career because Payton couldn't produce without having the ball on the low block. It was Malone that was the X-factor missing from the previous year. He held Duncan to 17 ppg on -400 shooting over the final 4 games. Without him, it's 100% that LA loses to SA again. And they had Kobe's Eagle issue and in-fighting going on in the background. LA were the complacent ones.
Gargamel
Starter
coolhandluke
Starter
- Pistons faded after Ben Wallace's mangina started acting up and they failed to make much improvements when the top half of the league improved by leaps and bounds. Their current situation is entirely predictable.
- You cannot have two "abnormal" years -- 2004 and 2005. They won legitimately in 2004 and they forced a Game 7 in 2005. No "bridesmaid" team is gonna force a Game 7.
- If you want to look at championship teams from recent history: I would take the 2004 Pistons over the 2003 Spurs. Does that make that Spurs team any less of a championship team? We can speculate on what would have happened in 2003 if Webber hasn't gone down or Dirk didn't severely sprain his ankle or in 2004 if Malone or Cassell didn't go down -- it leads to nowhere. The way I look at it life throws you curveballs and the team that is equipped to handle the situation better always wins. Did we forget Rip Hamilton playing with a broken nose?
- I'm not making a case for the Pistons to win the title this year. I'm merely opposed to the idea of putting down a legitimate championship team for its time.
The Pistons are the Atlanta Braves of the NBA.
coolhandluke
Starter
Hey, I agree that the Spurs should have been the best in 2004. In my earlier post, I contended that the Lakers were the best in the playoffs. The Lakers executed a better gameplan in the playoff series against the Spurs -- the key thing being the change in defensive rotations for effectively guarding Duncan and Parker. If the Spurs were heads and shoulders above their competition, they should have triumphed but it did not happen. Talent by itself doesn't win -- you need the smarts, hunger, adaptability, and some luck to go with your talent to win. Btw, did the infighting suddenly disappear during this series and WC finals only to resurface back in the finals after Malone exited the side door?
I can't believe I supported the Lakers. I hope to atone for my sins by watching that Game 5 from 2002 WC finals again.
tradepeja
Starter
The Spurs of 2004, the Kings of 2002 and 2003, and the Suns of 2007 are all very alike.
They were the best teams in the league in their given year, but due to injuries and/or refs, did not become the apparent champion.
I'm not quite sure if calling Detroit a fluke is correct though. Their performance in 2004 was one of the best team performances I had seen in a while.
They were the best teams in the league in their given year, but due to injuries and/or refs, did not become the apparent champion.
I'm not quite sure if calling Detroit a fluke is correct though. Their performance in 2004 was one of the best team performances I had seen in a while.
kupman
Starter
Gargamel
Starter
LA adapted in time to solve Parker and Duncan by virtue of the added dimension at 4. After falling down 0-2, the thing was, "Big guys: be more cognizant of clogging the lane on Parker". Malone and Shaq were responsible for this. As a side project, Malone did some superb 1:1 D on Duncan. Once he was injured in the next round, that added dimension was gone...the team's glue was dissolved, LA ceased to be the stronger team, history was made. Without Malone in 04, LA goes down to SA like they did in 03.
You asked if the in-fighting stopped between rounds. No, it was there from the preseason onward. Hurt feelings and sullen behavior waxed and waned all season. When they were winning, it was usually under the radar. When they were losing, they started doing their own thangs (Kobe in the Finals, for ex) and aired closed-doors stuff to the media (Payton, Shaq, and Kobe at various times). The point is, it was there from the preseason onward. It was just one chink in their armor.
That's why to this day, I consider Malone the only bright spot of that season and why I'm still surprised they were able to overcome 0-2 against the defending champs. The rest of the team were a bunch of children. What Detroit did isn't even frequently mentioned anymore as a huge upset, just like how GS beating Dallas seems a lot more rational than it did last April.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Sure they do -- that would in fact define them as a bridesmaid.
Pistons are just the 90's Pacers without a Chicago Bulls team in front of them to slap them around every year. A Price/Daugherty Cavs team. An 80's Milwaulkee Bucks team. The classic no-HOF, no superstar acumulation of good but not great player teams that basically never win it all. They come close. They battle. They get beat on buzzer beaters, in Game 7s. But they never win. Even the very best of those type teams -- the Adelman Blazers and Sacto Kings led by borderline HOFs (in for Clyde, likely not for Webb) still are bridesmaids. Only the earlier Detroit mini-dynasty, led by 2 HOFs in the backcourt (Zeke/Dumars) and another guy who really was a HOF talent in Rodman, made it over the hump (notably after Magic/Bird got old, but before Jordan was ready). And those squads would have overwhelmed these latter day Pistons.
Detroit did win once. Against a very weak opponent, in a flukishly weak year. You will recall that was the same year where Peja Stojakovic was talked about as an MVP candidate -- the reason? Nobody was great. Nothing was great. Detroit snuck in. But there are only a handful of champions over the past 25 years you would give that Detroit team a real chance against. That is not how you build a title team in the NBA (the rules are different in different sports). Its how you build a damn good sparring partner.
