Hield or Bogdanovic?

What should the Kings do about the Buddy Hield & Bogdan Bogdanovic situation?


  • Total voters
    73
  • Poll closed .
#61
Someone said it perfectly last night... (paraphrase) “If Ben McLemore wasn’t a horrible shooter, you’d have Buddy Hield.”

Unfortunately you don’t know what Bogi will show up game to game. Good Bogi >>> Hield by quite a bit. Bad Bogi is nearly unplayable, and he stuck around for a season and change. Hield even at his best has the b-ball IQ of a brick.

I go Hield. But the gap is way closer than it should be for a guy who just got 90 million.

Hate to be the “I called it” guy, but I was never feeling Buddy’s breakout as a true breakout and saw a regression coming. Hopefully he does what he usually does and proves me wrong.
You knew that the Kings would fire Joerger and lose Fox and Bagley to substantial injuries, resulting in a new offense that isn't as perfectly-suited to Buddy's strengths? Why didn't you warn us?!

In all seriousness, I think the last few games have shown that the Kings need both Buddy and Bogi to succeed.
 
#62
The PurpleTalk podcast with Ham & Doug had Peja on this week. They discussed Bogi, who was one of a couple players in the gym on the off-day that they recorded. It was pretty clear Peja (and by extension Vlade) really admire Bogi. Now, if someone wildly overpaid Bogi in RFA, then I think they would congratulate him on the contract and wish him well (much like Pop when he gets massively outbid on an FA). Peja also repeatedly referenced "flexibility".
This summer is going to be very interesting. I hope Buddy develops his feel for the game. But, if not, I think the front office knows that the heavy analytics teams out there are going to look at Buddy's shooting splits and declining contract and pay over the odds to get him. Buddy may be the JWill of this roster, where he is exhilarating to watch for his elite skills, but the team needs more stability at his position to really advance as a team.
 
#63
Someone said it perfectly last night... (paraphrase) “If Ben McLemore wasn’t a horrible shooter, you’d have Buddy Hield.”

Unfortunately you don’t know what Bogi will show up game to game. Good Bogi >>> Hield by quite a bit. Bad Bogi is nearly unplayable, and he stuck around for a season and change. Hield even at his best has the b-ball IQ of a brick.

I go Hield. But the gap is way closer than it should be for a guy who just got 90 million.

Hate to be the “I called it” guy, but I was never feeling Buddy’s breakout as a true breakout and saw a regression coming. Hopefully he does what he usually does and proves me wrong.


The light at the end of the tunnel: buddy is testing the upper boundaries of his abilities and with each fumble and turnover he is learning where his ceiling is...once this process concludes we will see him playing within himself and it will appear as a jump in his IQ. I thinkbthe same line of thinking applies to "bad boggie" as well
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#64
MOD NOTE: I've closed the poll. It started two weeks ago, which means right now some people who might have voted one way could easily vote a different way. Two weeks is a LONG time for something like this, especially when both the players involved have seemed - at times - to be the opposite of what they were.
 
#65
MOD NOTE: I've closed the poll. It started two weeks ago, which means right now some people who might have voted one way could easily vote a different way. Two weeks is a LONG time for something like this, especially when both the players involved have seemed - at times - to be the opposite of what they were.
Considering only myself & 1 other poster voted for "Trade Buddy Hield" initially, it was interesting to see that grow to 6 recently.

Bogdan's size, length, ball handling, passing, IQ, & defense are all better than Hield. Again, Hield has shooting and potentially rebounding (although the team rebounds better when Bogdan is on the floor vs. when Hield is on the floor).

Not to mention Bogdan may fly under the radar this year considering he is backing up Hield currently which may result in him getting a smaller deal than what Hield got. So there's the advantage that he may be the better/cheaper contract between the two.

I think with Bogdan flying under the radar, it likely means you could fetch more in a trade if you were to move Hield instead of Bogdan as well.

I was recently thinking about the top contending teams over the past years, and if any of those teams had a core player who was known for making boneheaded plays/passes/turnovers on a routine basis (like Hield does), and I couldn't really think of any. Perhaps someone knows a good example, but it got me thinking that the core players on these contending teams are also smart players. They make the right plays and the play within themselves.

Bogdan has been shooting well thus far this season. This is how he's tracking on some of the metrics I outlined in my OP...

  • 3PT% on pull-up 3s is close to his 2017-18 level again (39% to 31% to now 44%) = GOOD
  • % of 3s taken between 0-4 seconds in the shotclock is up from last year (13% to now 15%) = BAD (Hield is only at 3% as a comparison)
  • 3PT% on shots between 0-4 seconds in the shotclock is way up from last year (24% to now 46%) = GOOD (but will likely decrease as sample builds)
  • % of 3s taken when the closest defender is 6+ft away is down from last year (43% to now 35%) = BAD (Hield is at 47% as a comparison)
  • % of 3s taken from the corner is up (11% to now 18%) = GOOD
  • 3PT% from the corner is very low (48% to 37% to now 31%) = BAD (but will likely rise as sample builds. Hield is shooting 53% as a comparison)

Trying to be objective and looking at the stats above, I would say Bogdan's .411 3PT% is a bit "lucky" and that we could see it regress a bit (unless he has made some significant improvements as a shooter since last year).

Lastly, I wanted to share their impact stats thus far. As sample is limited, so are the choices to utilize.

Buddy Hield
Off PIPM = +0.7 (19th among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Def PIPM = -2.6 (82nd among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Tot PIPM = -1.9 (71st among SGs with 100 mins or more)

Off On/Off = +12.2 (3rd on team)
Def On/Off = +13.3 (16th on team)
Tot On/Off = -1.1 (7th on team)

Bogdan Bogdanovic
Off PIPM = -0.4 (49th among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Def PIPM = +0.2 (27th among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Tot PIPM = -0.3 (37th among SGs with 100 mins or more)

Off On/Off = -5.3 (8th on team)
Def On/Off = -3.1 (8th on team)
Tot On/Off = -2.3 (8th on team)
 
#66
To the above—Steph has some bad turnovers at critical points, but he’s also in another stratosphere from Buddy as far as offensive production, and defense is hovering around average.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#67
Considering only myself & 1 other poster voted for "Trade Buddy Hield" initially, it was interesting to see that grow to 6 recently.

Bogdan's size, length, ball handling, passing, IQ, & defense are all better than Hield. Again, Hield has shooting and potentially rebounding (although the team rebounds better when Bogdan is on the floor vs. when Hield is on the floor).

Not to mention Bogdan may fly under the radar this year considering he is backing up Hield currently which may result in him getting a smaller deal than what Hield got. So there's the advantage that he may be the better/cheaper contract between the two.

I think with Bogdan flying under the radar, it likely means you could fetch more in a trade if you were to move Hield instead of Bogdan as well.

I was recently thinking about the top contending teams over the past years, and if any of those teams had a core player who was known for making boneheaded plays/passes/turnovers on a routine basis (like Hield does), and I couldn't really think of any. Perhaps someone knows a good example, but it got me thinking that the core players on these contending teams are also smart players. They make the right plays and the play within themselves.

Bogdan has been shooting well thus far this season. This is how he's tracking on some of the metrics I outlined in my OP...

  • 3PT% on pull-up 3s is close to his 2017-18 level again (39% to 31% to now 44%) = GOOD
  • % of 3s taken between 0-4 seconds in the shotclock is up from last year (13% to now 15%) = BAD (Hield is only at 3% as a comparison)
  • 3PT% on shots between 0-4 seconds in the shotclock is way up from last year (24% to now 46%) = GOOD (but will likely decrease as sample builds)
  • % of 3s taken when the closest defender is 6+ft away is down from last year (43% to now 35%) = BAD (Hield is at 47% as a comparison)
  • % of 3s taken from the corner is up (11% to now 18%) = GOOD
  • 3PT% from the corner is very low (48% to 37% to now 31%) = BAD (but will likely rise as sample builds. Hield is shooting 53% as a comparison)

Trying to be objective and looking at the stats above, I would say Bogdan's .411 3PT% is a bit "lucky" and that we could see it regress a bit (unless he has made some significant improvements as a shooter since last year).

Lastly, I wanted to share their impact stats thus far. As sample is limited, so are the choices to utilize.

Buddy Hield
Off PIPM = +0.7 (19th among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Def PIPM = -2.6 (82nd among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Tot PIPM = -1.9 (71st among SGs with 100 mins or more)

Off On/Off = +12.2 (3rd on team)
Def On/Off = +13.3 (16th on team)
Tot On/Off = -1.1 (7th on team)

Bogdan Bogdanovic
Off PIPM = -0.4 (49th among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Def PIPM = +0.2 (27th among SGs with 100 mins or more)
Tot PIPM = -0.3 (37th among SGs with 100 mins or more)

Off On/Off = -5.3 (8th on team)
Def On/Off = -3.1 (8th on team)
Tot On/Off = -2.3 (8th on team)
I think it might be a good idea at some point to have a new poll with the same question - perhaps even revisit it periodically as the season progresses. I know if Buddy doesn't start being Buddy Buckets more and Buddy Bozo less, I might be inclined to change my vote (which was initially to keep both).

Thanks for all the work you do providing statistics, btw. Even I, one of the most unstatistically-leaning people on the board, find them interesting (which is a pretty significant change for me). :)
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#71
I think it might be a good idea at some point to have a new poll with the same question - perhaps even revisit it periodically as the season progresses. I know if Buddy doesn't start being Buddy Buckets more and Buddy Bozo less, I might be inclined to change my vote (which was initially to keep both).

Thanks for all the work you do providing statistics, btw. Even I, one of the most unstatistically-leaning people on the board, find them interesting (which is a pretty significant change for me). :)
He sure has donned the Bozo outfit a lot this year!
 
#72
The light at the end of the tunnel: buddy is testing the upper boundaries of his abilities and with each fumble and turnover he is learning where his ceiling is...once this process concludes we will see him playing within himself and it will appear as a jump in his IQ. I thinkbthe same line of thinking applies to "bad boggie" as well
Buddy already adjusted and plays more within himself.
 
#73
I think it might be a good idea at some point to have a new poll with the same question - perhaps even revisit it periodically as the season progresses. I know if Buddy doesn't start being Buddy Buckets more and Buddy Bozo less, I might be inclined to change my vote (which was initially to keep both).

Thanks for all the work you do providing statistics, btw. Even I, one of the most unstatistically-leaning people on the board, find them interesting (which is a pretty significant change for me). :)
Seems like every game he does something detrimental to the team in pivotal moments of the game. I agree with you 100% he's gotta clean it up. I think i heard someone say Buddy isn't a low IQ player but he does low IQ things during the game far too often.
 
#74
Seems like every game he does something detrimental to the team in pivotal moments of the game. I agree with you 100% he's gotta clean it up. I think i heard someone say Buddy isn't a low IQ player but he does low IQ things during the game far too often.
When I watch Buddy it just looks like he wants to do too much or do more than his skills allow at this point. I cringe anytime he brings the ball up full court or when he is trying to run a fast break. Yesterday, at the end of the third when the Kings needed to get good offensive possessions, he drove into the lane where three Suns were waiting to block him (looking for a foul?). He did this not once, but twice in the last 30 or 40 seconds of the half. This is likely why Luke took him out to begin the fourth (although it sounds like he was pretty sick before the game).

And then when Luke was forced to put him in towards the end of the fourth and he fouled a guy by playing over aggressive defense in the corner in the last couple of minutes when it wasn't really necessary--omg. Buddy has the right attitude, though, and from all reports he is a hard worker, so I try to take his effort farts with a grain of salt.
 
#78
Anyone willing to marginalize the value of one Mr. Buddy Hield is making a big mistake.
And also not recognizing that both Buddy and Bogdan are playing different roles. Buddy is more of a true SG and Bogdan is more complete running pick and roll. Also, if you watch the opposing defense, a lot of what Bogdan is getting is because of the attention Buddy gets from the defense. The Suns for example were stacking their defense towards him and that left Bogdan free to do a whole lot with a single big screen. The Kings are extremely lucky that Bogdan and Buddy appear to work well together. Bogdan and Fox get in each others way a little but it's not as bad as it could be and I think Walton, Igor and the rest of the coaching staff are showing the ability to figure things out quick so if there is a way to make it work to full capacity this is the first time in a lot of years that there's a coaching staff with the ability to pull it off.
 
#79
Let me start off by saying I think both can easily contribute to a team's success. However, we saw last year (and now this year) that we are worse when both of them are on the floor together.

When Hield & Bogdan WERE NOT on the floor together last season, the team had a NETRTG of -0.6
When Hield & Bogdan WERE on the floor together last season, the team had a NETRTG of -3.0 (989 min sample size)

Meaning we were outscored by 2.4 more points per 100 possessions when we decided to play Hield & Bogdanovic together vs. if we kept one or both of them on the bench. The issue has seemed to become even worse this season (acknowledging the small sample size):

When Hield & Bogdan WERE NOT on the floor together this season, the team had a NETRTG of -8.7
When Hield & Bogdan WERE on the floor together this season, the team had a NETRTG of -32.5 (57 min sample size)


Again, we have two talented SGs that both deserve to play more than 24 mpg. However, playing them more than 48 minutes collectively (assuming they would get all the SG minutes) means we're hurting our team performance. So what do we do? We either....

  1. Trade Buddy Hield (would probably have to wait until his contract kicks in next year)
  2. Trade Bogdan Bogdanovic (assuming we just wouldn't let him walk next offseason for nothing)
  3. Keep both of them (in hopes they figure it out)
  4. Trade both Buddy Hield & Bogdan Bogdanovic (may be that you don't like either of them long term here)

Personally, I'm leaning towards the option of trading Hield and keeping Bogdanovic.

For starters, the team's performance is better when Fox/Bogdan are on the floor & Hield is off the floor vs. when Fox/Hield are on the floor & Bogdan is off the floor.

Fox/Bogdan = On Court & Hield = Off Court (365 min sample size)
OFFRTG = 112.6
DEFRTG = 108.3
NETRTG = +4.3

Fox/Hield= On Court & Bogdan = Off Court (1420 min sample size)
OFFRTG = 113.1
DEFRTG = 110.7
NETRTG = +2.4

I also took a look at these numbers when both Hield & Bogdan had Barnes in the lineup next to them (a solid, good sized SF)...

Fox/Bogdan/Barnes = On Court & Hield = Off Court (77 min sample size)
OFFRTG = 112.7
DEFRTG = 97.0
NETRTG = +15.7

Fox/Hield/Barnes= On Court & Bogdan = Off Court (451 min sample size)
OFFRTG = 114.4
DEFRTG = 111.1
NETRTG = +3.3


Then I started to think about what does each bring to the game. I would say Hield has the advantage in shooting & rebounding, but I would say that Bogdan is a better passer, better ball handler, better defender, & has better bball IQ. Not to mention that he's still a very good shooter. Not elite like Hield, but very good nonetheless.

Then you have the size & length comparison which is advantage Bogdan:

Hield
Height w/ Shoes = 6'5"
Wingspan = 6'9.25"
Standing Reach = 8'5"
Weight = 212.4lbs

Bogdan
Height w/ Shoes = 6'6"
Wingspan = 6'11"
Standing Reach = 8'8"
Weight = 205lbs

Bogdan's standing reach is in the 91st percentile among SGs measured at the combine in the last 10 years. His wingspan is 83rd percentile as well. He's a very long SG.

And then Bogdan will likely have the advantage with his contract next offseason. He'll likely end up making less. I could see him around $14-$17 mil per year where Hield will likely be around $23.5 mil per year (considering his likely incentives).

Coming back to the shooting though as this is where the "pro Hield" crowd tends to emphasize that shooting should be weighted much heavier in this decision despite Bogdan being better in many other facets of the game, and to some degree, I agree. Shooting is very important in today's game, but again, Bogdan is no slouch here. He shot 39.2% from three his rookie year, shot 36% from three his sophomore year, and shot 53% (on 66 3PA) during FIBA. Again, he's no slouch.

I also wanted to dive a little deeper into last year's shooting numbers to see why there was a dip. His pull-up 3PT% was 39.3% in the 2017-18 season. That drastically dropped to 30.5% in the 2018-19 season. If he kept his pull-up 3PT% similar year to year, his 36% would have climbed to 39.3%.

The other thing I noticed is that 13.1% of Bogdan's 3PAs last year were when the shotclock was between 0-4 sec. As a comparison, only 5% of Hield's 3PAs last year were when the shotclock was between 0-4 sec. That tells you that we were looking to Bogdan to bail us out at the last second when the offense broke down, and he shot only 24% on those types of 3PAs. If he had that closer to 5% (like Hield) that bumps his 3PT% up another percent.

It also looks like Hield got more of his looks from the corner three vs. Bogdan. 20.1% of Hields 3PAs were from the corner vs. Bogdan only had 11.3%. Everyone knows that corner three is one of the best most, efficient shots in the game. If he had more looks from the corner, I'm sure his 3PT% would be higher as well.

The last thing I'll mention is that 53.9% of Hield's 3PAs were when the closest defender was 6+ft away vs. Bogdan only had 43.2% of his attempts be that open. Now that that may be a product of Hield playing more minutes with Fox (and therefore, that may carryover to Bogdan if he became the starter) or it may just be that Hield works harder to get that open.

But at the end of the day, Bogdan is still a very good 3PT shooter, and I think a decent amount of the discrepancy comes from...
  • His pull-up 3PT% dropping significantly vs. the year prior
  • Him being asked to take a shot when the shotclock runs down
  • Less opportunities to shoot from the corner 3
  • Less wide open threes (perhaps a product of playing with the reserves who don't command as much attention from the opposing team's defense)



If we were to move Hield, you could probably land a pretty good player as well. Perhaps there is some sort of deal out there that allows us to trade Hield to a 3rd team and receive M. Turner (don't think they'd want Hield with Brogdon & Oladipo there). The Pacers seem to be playing better with Turner out and Sabonis sliding over to C so perhaps it's feasible. Like a Hield to TOR / Anunoby to IND / Turner to SAC sort of deal or a Hield to MIN / Covington to IND / Turner to SAC.
Very well written and thought out. That said, having two superior SG’s in your lineup is not the worst problem to have. I personally want to be patient and see how the team dynamic plays out for a while with this lineup.
 
#80
On Bill Simmons’ latest podcast Windhorst spent five minutes talking about how great it would be if the Lakers traded Kuzma for Bogi. So, Lebron would like to trade us Kuzma for Bogi...

Of course, absolutely no mention of why the Kings need Kuzma (we don’t) or the fact that we would never do a deal with the Lakers. Other than that, “great” journalism from Klutch PR man Brian Windhorst.
 
#81
On Bill Simmons’ latest podcast Windhorst spent five minutes talking about how great it would be if the Lakers traded Kuzma for Bogi. So, Lebron would like to trade us Kuzma for Bogi...

Of course, absolutely no mention of why the Kings need Kuzma (we don’t) or the fact that we would never do a deal with the Lakers. Other than that, “great” journalism from Klutch PR man Brian Windhorst.
The type of player I would trade Bogi for would be an ace perimeter defender. We need that badly I know we have Joseph buts that's not enough.
 
#86
The most interesting part of this thread to me, by far, is the tendency to chose one or the other. We could also trade both. We could also keep both. I am firmly in the keep both camp, as I think both players are part of our core.

It seems very impractical to trade away core players while the team has both stability and is improving. We are at the point where the only trade involving our core players (Fox, Bagley, Hield, Bogdonovic) that makes sense is for a young superstar.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#87
The most interesting part of this thread to me, by far, is the tendency to chose one or the other. We could also trade both. We could also keep both. I am firmly in the keep both camp, as I think both players are part of our core.

It seems very impractical to trade away core players while the team has both stability and is improving. We are at the point where the only trade involving our core players (Fox, Bagley, Hield, Bogdonovic) that makes sense is for a young superstar.
The results of the poll, however, show strong support for keeping both. I suspect people who fall into that category don't feel the need to make a case one way or the other.
 
#88
The results of the poll, however, show strong support for keeping both. I suspect people who fall into that category don't feel the need to make a case one way or the other.
Touche! Now I find it interesting that I paid little attention to the poll results.
 
#90
As far as the subject, I think its a false choice......you need multiple shooters - on your post, then I'd choose option 3. Keep both. HIeld is NOT earning his extension the last few games here lately. He needs to spend time in the gym and work on his mechanics ,follow through, or whatever to right whatever is causing his misfires.