Harry Giles and other thoughts

What the hell does foul trouble matter at this point? Let him foul out in the first half if that's what happens. I'm so over Walton and this FO.
it shouldn’t matter at all. It’s clear this team is devoid of the talent it needs to be competitive in this league. The guys who are seeing time ahead of him aren’t leading us to wins, let alone the playoffs. It’s not working and there is nothing that shows us it will going forward. Like I said, I’d argue Giles has the highest ceiling on this team based on the sample size. Play him as much as you can. This team is a few games away from a full blown mutiny. Even our media guys like Koz, Doug, and Carmichael Dave are voicing their frustrations openly and often. Give us something that can give us optimism.
 
The way we've handled Giles is one of my least favorite things this franchise has ever done. Here we have a young guy who was once the top prospect in his draft class fall to us, a rebuilding team that is in desperate need of all the talent they can get their hands on and we've done everything we can to not give him a shot and try and develop him. Even in small sample sizes he's shown a potentially skyscraper high ceiling with his advanced passing instincts and shooting ability. Not to mention the fact that he is one of the only guys out there that ever shows any fire and emotion. Yet the most minutes he's played this year in a game is 17. Even with the season in complete disarray we can't find any time for him. Yesterday Andre Drummond and Blake were out and Thon Maker held down the paint. Bagley and Holmes were both out. The game was over as soon as it started and even with all those factors Giles only saw 11 minutes. Does anyone else find this infuriating? I understand Giles has his warts defensively and gets into foul trouble easily and often, but the moral of the team is low right now, fan support and engagement is probably at an all time low. Why not give the guy with a high ceiling a shot at this point? What is the risk? Nothing Luke has done has worked. Giles deserves a shot at this point and the fans deserve to see him get one.
Love your post. Sign me up.
 
Any chance we can keep Giles if Vlade is replaced? Harry is such a great fit on this team, and I don’t think he’ll get offers too far above what we can give him, if that. I just hope a new GM can convince Harry to give the Kings one more chance with a clean slate.
 
Is there any chance a pro-Giles strategy has led us to where we are now with Harry? Because otherwise we are left to assume that either the Kings FO lost confidence in Harry, or they know something about Harry that they've not disclosed. The only pro-Giles strategy I can imagine is one in which they concluded that they wouldn't be able to keep all the core together, plus Harry. So by creating a disappointing season for Harry, maybe they thought they could then sign him on the cheap for a few years. Better than losing him to another team, perhaps. But still doesn't seem like the most likely path for the FO to have taken.
But then the other scenarios don't seem that plausable, either. Could the FO have lost confidence in Harry? After all the hype? After watching him show great signs in his rookie year? Maybe they didn't like that he didn't bounce back quickly enough from that injury that ended his season prematurely? Or maybe it was a lack of disipline over the summer in terms of supervised workouts and not being prepared for the summer leagues. Hard to imagine that a player who used to smoke cigarettes and avoided the weight room like the plague (Vlade) would be that punitive with a talented/high-upside player like Harry.
Now that we've seen Harry get some playing time this year, it seems even less likely that any qualified medical personnel would have decided that Harry's knee was never going to allow him to reach his potential. There are a half dozen Kings players who present greater physical risks than Harry.
So I'm back to wondering if the FO may have been trying to get Harry on the cheap by slyly manufacturing a disappointing 2nd season?
 
We keep Harry's bird rights correct? So I k ow we are limited on what we can offer next season, but if we give him a 1 yr 4 mil deal, are we able to extend him for whatever we want after?
 
We keep Harry's bird rights correct? So I k ow we are limited on what we can offer next season, but if we give him a 1 yr 4 mil deal, are we able to extend him for whatever we want after?
He’s Not playing here next year no matter what literally 0 chance. The most we can offer is 3 million I think
 
Is there any chance a pro-Giles strategy has led us to where we are now with Harry? Because otherwise we are left to assume that either the Kings FO lost confidence in Harry, or they know something about Harry that they've not disclosed. The only pro-Giles strategy I can imagine is one in which they concluded that they wouldn't be able to keep all the core together, plus Harry. So by creating a disappointing season for Harry, maybe they thought they could then sign him on the cheap for a few years. Better than losing him to another team, perhaps. But still doesn't seem like the most likely path for the FO to have taken.
But then the other scenarios don't seem that plausable, either. Could the FO have lost confidence in Harry? After all the hype? After watching him show great signs in his rookie year? Maybe they didn't like that he didn't bounce back quickly enough from that injury that ended his season prematurely? Or maybe it was a lack of disipline over the summer in terms of supervised workouts and not being prepared for the summer leagues. Hard to imagine that a player who used to smoke cigarettes and avoided the weight room like the plague (Vlade) would be that punitive with a talented/high-upside player like Harry.
Now that we've seen Harry get some playing time this year, it seems even less likely that any qualified medical personnel would have decided that Harry's knee was never going to allow him to reach his potential. There are a half dozen Kings players who present greater physical risks than Harry.
So I'm back to wondering if the FO may have been trying to get Harry on the cheap by slyly manufacturing a disappointing 2nd season?
I really don’t think there’s any third level thinking on this by management. For whatever reason they decided they wanted to see if he’s worth the max salary they are allowed to pay him next year and I guess betting nobody else will offer something better or that he would take less to leave. The thing is they may ultimately be proven right in this strategy if Harry is out of the league in a couple years; however that’s missing the point that they have seemingly failed to develop his game significantly in the last two years. Right now I think they are living off the impressive rehab and patience they gave him in year 1, thinking that gives them goodwill with Harry and the fans with respect to their handling of him. But that only goes so far and the trainer ultimately responsible was fired (semantics aside). I’ve seen a lot of love by Harry on social media for the sac fans and Pete Youngman, but I personally don’t get those vibes regarding anything else Kings.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
We keep Harry's bird rights correct? So I k ow we are limited on what we can offer next season, but if we give him a 1 yr 4 mil deal, are we able to extend him for whatever we want after?
If he signs with us next year, then yes, we would have his Bird rights for the following season. We would not be able to extend him. but we would be able to sign him to a big free agent contract.
 
No when you decline his option you lose his Bird rights. Very small chance Giles is back next year.
I believe this is correct. Making the QO was such a no-brainer the only conclusion I can derive is they forgot to submit the paperwork. I just cannot believe such a bush league decision would be made. Even if you don't want to keep him, you have the choice with his rights and could deal him for picks.
 
I believe this is correct. Making the QO was such a no-brainer the only conclusion I can derive is they forgot to submit the paperwork. I just cannot believe such a bush league decision would be made. Even if you don't want to keep him, you have the choice with his rights and could deal him for picks.
We still have his bird rights, but are limited to offering the same contract next year he would have received on his option. Extension would be off of next year contract. Basically he would have to become a free agent again to get a better deal.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
No when you decline his option you lose his Bird rights.
This is not correct. Bird rights are based on how long a player has been with a team without changing teams in free agency. They actually carry across trades, the only thing that resets Bird rights is signing a free agent contract with a team other than the team you were on most recently. Bird rights accrue in three years (Early Bird in two) and allow the team to exceed the salary cap to sign the player as a free agent. With full Bird rights, the team is allowed to sign a player to a 5-year deal at that player's maximum salary, regardless of the team's cap situation.

Giles has not (yet) changed teams in free agency, and so whatever team he is on at the end of the year (us, or a team we trade him to) will have his full Bird rights.

HOWEVER, because his fourth-year option was declined, we (or any team Giles is traded to this year) are not allowed to sign him for next year for more than the value of the option year (which was about $4M) regardless of the fact that we hold his Bird rights. If Giles does sign a one-year, $4M contract with us this offseason, then we would be able to offer him any contract up to his max in the summer of 2021 without regard to our salary cap.

Very small chance Giles is back next year.
This is more on point. Giles' max contract this offseason will be somewhere in the high $20Ms. But obviously nobody will offer him that. I don't know how much cap space teams are looking to have next year, but most likely the best offer he can hope for is in the range of the MLE, which will be about $10M or so. Assuming that we want him back, Giles will be back if

1) Nobody offers him more than $4M
2) He gets offered more than $4M but prefers to stay (perhaps to keep his established Bird rights which would allow a much bigger contract from the Kings in the summer of 2021)
3) Something weird is going on under the table

The Giles situation this year has been, frankly, bizarre, and I can't begin to understand it. It seems there is a lot that went on behind closed doors and we don't know what that is, and whether it is bad for our chances to re-sign Giles, or perhaps not so bad for those chances. What we do know is that we can't offer him as much money as the other 29 teams in the league, if they want to. The rest is obscure.
 
This is not correct. Bird rights are based on how long a player has been with a team without changing teams in free agency. They actually carry across trades, the only thing that resets Bird rights is signing a free agent contract with a team other than the team you were on most recently. Bird rights accrue in three years (Early Bird in two) and allow the team to exceed the salary cap to sign the player as a free agent. With full Bird rights, the team is allowed to sign a player to a 5-year deal at that player's maximum salary, regardless of the team's cap situation.

Giles has not (yet) changed teams in free agency, and so whatever team he is on at the end of the year (us, or a team we trade him to) will have his full Bird rights.

HOWEVER, because his fourth-year option was declined, we (or any team Giles is traded to this year) are not allowed to sign him for next year for more than the value of the option year (which was about $4M) regardless of the fact that we hold his Bird rights. If Giles does sign a one-year, $4M contract with us this offseason, then we would be able to offer him any contract up to his max in the summer of 2021 without regard to our salary cap.



This is more on point. Giles' max contract this offseason will be somewhere in the high $20Ms. But obviously nobody will offer him that. I don't know how much cap space teams are looking to have next year, but most likely the best offer he can hope for is in the range of the MLE, which will be about $10M or so. Assuming that we want him back, Giles will be back if

1) Nobody offers him more than $4M
2) He gets offered more than $4M but prefers to stay (perhaps to keep his established Bird rights which would allow a much bigger contract from the Kings in the summer of 2021)
3) Something weird is going on under the table

The Giles situation this year has been, frankly, bizarre, and I can't begin to understand it. It seems there is a lot that went on behind closed doors and we don't know what that is, and whether it is bad for our chances to re-sign Giles, or perhaps not so bad for those chances. What we do know is that we can't offer him as much money as the other 29 teams in the league, if they want to. The rest is obscure.
just to be clear because Giles and Bogi’s situation is similiar but different.

in the case of Bogi we are limited in what we can offer now but if others offer more we can match.

in the case of Giles we are Limited to 4M but if another team offers more than 4M we cannot match.

Are we aligned.
 
just to be clear because Giles and Bogi’s situation is similiar but different.

in the case of Bogi we are limited in what we can offer now but if others offer more we can match.

in the case of Giles we are Limited to 4M but if another team offers more than 4M we cannot match.

Are we aligned.
Correct.

We can only offer Bogi and extension on his current contract now. Once he becomes a RA free agent we can offer more and match any offers.

Giles we can only offer the $4 mil for next year. Any team can offer whatever they are allowed under their cap. He doesn't have to take the highest offer. He gets to pick which team contract to play for.
 
So everyone here thinks another team is going to offer more than 4 million to Harry Giles?
I can only speak for myself, but my concern is that the team is not showing interest in re-signing not necessarily a price issue. I would be much happier if the team made a stronger commitment in terms of an offer. I understand we do not know what's being said to Harrry and his agent but my fears will just let him walk. I have seen almost nothing on court to indicate that Harry will not be a solid player in this league perhaps even a damn good starter and I would hate to see him disappear much like Gerald Wallace did.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
So everyone here thinks another team is going to offer more than 4 million to Harry Giles?
Too early to say. I think a lot will hinge on how he plays to finish out the season. It's not that often that a 22-year-old kid who was considered a possible #1 overall pick just four years prior comes available for probably the MLE while apparently both being healthy and still having the skills that made him a great prospect. Clearly a bit of the shine has come off, and for all of the good stuff he has flashed, he's not consistent and his numbers aren't really that hot. I guess we'll see, but I'd lean to saying that somebody will offer him more than we can.
 
its 4 million why wouldn’t a team like Charlotte offer him that
Yeah I guess the good news is because the market this off-season is fairly barren in terms of teams with projected cap space (think like... 7??) and I seriously doubt any of those teams are going be calling day 1 of FA. Could probably rule out most contenders using their MLE on him too; not the right player they use that option for.

My guess is Harry will have to weigh like a 2/12 type of deal with an option vs staying with us and keeping his bird rights active for 1/4.
 
Too early to say. I think a lot will hinge on how he plays to finish out the season. It's not that often that a 22-year-old kid who was considered a possible #1 overall pick just four years prior comes available for probably the MLE while apparently both being healthy and still having the skills that made him a great prospect. Clearly a bit of the shine has come off, and for all of the good stuff he has flashed, he's not consistent and his numbers aren't really that hot. I guess we'll see, but I'd lean to saying that somebody will offer him more than we can.
I think they could offer him less than 4M and as an unrestricted free agent where Giles ends up is his choice.
 
Gotta say - look at the market for WCS and D Cousins the last couple years. Also look at Holmes contract based on his production in Phoenix versus Giles’ production.
Makes a lot of sense. I'd say WCS is probably the best comp as far as contract goes. Can't compare him to Cuz because of the injuries. Holmes....I bet you a whole bunch of teams are kicking themselves for not signing him. He would easily command double his salary if teams knew he was going to play like this as a starter.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Giles. I think it'll be a Holmes like situation where if a team is going to sign him for lets say $5M...it'll be near the end of free agency when they've just got a few dollars left to throw at the wall and see what sticks. Right now, Giles' production is not worth that but it could be by the end of the season if he progresses. Although that'll take him getting consistent minutes which seems like a total crapshoot with the way things have been managed.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
I think they could offer him less than 4M and as an unrestricted free agent where Giles ends up is his choice.
Yes, he will be unrestricted, so if he WANTS out, he's gone. But I haven't seen anything - even with the whole saga at the beginning of the season and the playing time question marks now - that suggests he wants to leave. Perhaps he does want out, but he also does seem to genuinely like his teammates. We're all in the dark here on what Giles wants until something happens, really.
 
The biggest knock on Harry is his fouling rate. He can be a fouling machine at times. But if the logic is to NOT give him more minutes because of the fouling, look at the stats on a month by month basis, along with the avg minutes played:
Fouls/36 Min Avg Min/Gm
9.1 November 7.4
6.4 December 16.9
6.8 January 12.9
7.2 All Games 11.4

Last night against OKC, for example, Harry played 17 min and only picked up one foul.

What all this tells me is that giving Harry more minutes helps him (work to) improve his fouling rate. It is true that Harry has a long way to go in improving his fouling rate, and it will take more than increased playing time to get there. But giving him more minutes is a start.