[Grades] Grades v. The Morons in Striped Shirts 1/21/2017

[kingsboi]

Don't look now but Kings are two games out of dead last in the West (with the mighty Suns and Mavs hot on our heels!) where I projected them by end of month around the holidays when others were talking naively about the 8th seed. Disconcertingly this performance is with veteran squad. If floundering with youth at least there would be upward trajectory to hope (bet) on. You can do NO worse dead last playing old guys in win now mode. Well, unless you want to try to win now with old guys while simultaneously stripping the cupboard relatively bare of future assets through swap rights and unconditional picks.

This calls into question the judgement and trustworthiness of Joerger and Vlade, particularly with Boogie having the best season of his career. If this season is not an epic fail I don't know what is. Of course you can harp on terrible calls but what about one player going for 42 point and no one else sniffing double figures? What about everyone in the arena knowing last play was going to Boogie so the Bulls could send the kitchen sink? What about the underachievement up and down this roster that reflects pace, leadership, rotations, personality and personnel decisions by the coach and GM culpable for this inferior product?

Boogie is 10th in the NBA in Real Plus Minus at 5.5. Here's the company he's keeping:

• Affalo -4.47 (433 out of 438 players)
• Ben -4.30 (430 out of 438)
• Willie -2.52 (363 out of 438)
• Collison -2.38 (348 out 438)
• Barnes -2.27 (334 out of 438)
• Omri -1.68 (279 out of 438)
• Ty Lawson -1.06 (220 out 438)

The first five guys are bottom 75% percentile of the NBA. All seven guys are bottom 50%. This leaves us with four guys in Top 50% with one of the guys done for the year.

• Temple +0.06 (134 out of 438)
• Koufos +1.13 (82 out of 438)
• Rudy +1.99 (49 out of 438)
• Boogie +5.50 (10 out of 438)

This is the roster Vlade assembled and mileage Joerger has squeezed out of them. The player turnover of last summer was for naught with same amount of turnover anticipated this summer. Who trusts this GM to do so successfully? I don't. I suppose he can get lucky with the right player falling in draft and capitalize on desperation of another team trade wise, but that's the extent of the credit I can grant. You have a coach trying to reconfigure the Grizzlies and a confounded GM discovering this job is not as easy as he thought it to be. Better ink Boogie to that contract before he changes his mind.

That's one thing I question. Does this organization and front office really want to emulate the Grizzlies? I mean sure, they have been a playoff team for the last 5 years or so but we all know they will never come out of the West. We knew it back then we know it now. At their peak, they are a second round team that competes and defends. If that's all the Kings are striving to be, then the vision of the team is the major concern I question.

 

[kingdivac]

I assume you would therefore be that idiot who asks for 5 new cards everytime in 5-card draw, even with an ace in the hand.

Stooping to name-calling is unbecoming and rude. And a Good evening to you too....

 

[kingsboi]

Sounds great and I wish we have Pop light too but I watch alot of spurs games and notice Pop plays young guys plenty, way more than Joerger and his vets are legit and not on their way out of the league. Some examples are Simmons last year, Bertans,Dejounte this year and he sprinkles in extended minutes for those guys when his vets are out.

My own theory is that with our vets being kinda desperate to stay in the league they pout and lash out when they dont get their time(see casspi, afflalo for some reason WCS and Ben at times) so in order to keep the locker room from becoming a dumpster fire he keeps those guys happy win or lose(mostly lose.) The rookies arent about to say anything as they are just kids.

Plus he has a playoff mandate from the owner, all of those expensive shops and restaurants in and around the arena need customers and most casual fans just hear the word playoffs and fill up the stadium and spend MONEY. So playing the vets as long as we have a mathematical shot at the playoffs is currently in his best interest.

This is where being a terrible organization shines.

Even though as the losses pile up its clear as day this roster has basically no shot at the playoffs its pretty dumb to be playing guys like barnes, toliver so many minutes over guys like skal and richardson. This season is a lost cause and this is valuable time to let the young guys get a feel for the nba and for us to see if we might have something there. Start building the foundation properly for once and you might one day be a contender. Do what your currently doing, trying to shortcut your way to an 8 seed is just spinning the wheels and making contention further and further away.

I don't want to flame Joerger just yet. I have hopes that after the all-star break when the Kings are dead in the water for good, the rookies will get some more playing time. I atleast hold out hope that this is the case. Maybe Vlade sways a trade for a young player or draft pick or maybe he stands pat and takes the jabs to the face with dignity and head held high. Either way, from the very beginning, Joerger himself said that this season is not about winning and making the playoffs more so than it is to establish a culture and so far he has done just that. Yeah, the plays he plays aren't what we want to see but that also goes back to Vlade giving him way too many washed up veterans to play around with and therefore you see different vets on any given night, receive their minutes if the other isn't performing well.

 

[kingdivac]

I don't want to flame Joerger just yet. I have hopes that after the all-star break when the Kings are dead in the water for good, the rookies will get some more playing time. I atleast hold out hope that this is the case. Maybe Vlade sways a trade for a young player or draft pick or maybe he stands pat and takes the jabs to the face with dignity and head held high. Either way, from the very beginning, Joerger himself said that this season is not about winning and making the playoffs more so than it is to establish a culture and so far he has done just that. Yeah, the plays he plays aren't what we want to see but that also goes back to Vlade giving him way too many washed up veterans to play around with and therefore you see different vets on any given night, receive their minutes if the other isn't performing well.

Hoping it's earlier than the All-Star Break for rookies and ower bench to get major minutes.....

 

[Blob]

Good post, except I think no-one is untradeable on this team, including Cousins. They could wholly put in a new starting 5 and I wouldn't mind at all.

If Boogie is going to be traded it would be after he signs his 5 year extension, and that comes with the assumption there is not a no-trade clause in the deal, which may be a big assumption. We are not going to extract maximum value if we were to trade him now because the acquiring team would have not distinct advantage in re-signing him per terms of the new CBA thereby suppressing the trade offers presented to us. Plus for the first time he's putting up superstar efficiency, so there's that too. For a team that is SO talent-thin, the new CBA and incremental progress to his offensive efficiency, there is NO compelling reason to trade Boogie.

 

[King Baller]

Don't look now but Kings are two games out of dead last in the West

And two games out of the 8th Playoff spot

 

[kingdivac]

If Boogie is going to be traded it would be after he signs his 5 year extension, and that comes with the assumption there is not a no-trade clause in the deal, which may be a big assumption. We are not going to extract maximum value if we were to trade him now because the acquiring team would have not extinct advantage in re-signing him per terms ofI'm not particu the new CBA thereby suppressing the trade offers presented to us. Plus for the first time he's putting up superstar efficiency, so there's that too. For a team that is SO talent-thin, the new CBA and incremental progress to his offensive efficiency, there is NO compelling reason to trade Boogie.

I'm not particularly advocating his trade, but would certainly not be against it. Cousins has shown season after season a lack of leadership skills, and does not particularly make players around him better. 6+ seasons is a large enough sample size. His superstar efficiency means little for a bottom-feeder team. If the organization wants to keep him fine, but they need another dominant player or a very good veteran leader. They were hoping Rondo was more that last year, and it didn't work out - a good stab it. Perhaps they bailed on Rondo too fast or he wanted to much. Its passed by.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm not particularly advocating his trade, but would certainly not be against it. Cousins has shown season after season a lack of leadership skills, and does not particularly make players around him better. 6+ seasons is a large enough sample size. His superstar efficiency means little for a bottom-feeder team. If the organization wants to keep him fine, but they need another dominant player or a very good veteran leader. They were hoping Rondo was more that last year, and it didn't work out - a good stab it. Perhaps they bailed on Rondo too fast or he wanted to much. Its passed by.

It's not as if Rondo is doing much for the Bulls either. He is getting benched and playing a career low in minutes I believe. His negatives outweigh the positives at this point in time. The organization will continue to try their best to surround Boogie with talent and another scorer, if they get sick of trying, then trade him in the 2018 or 2019 offseason.

 

[KingMilz]

Karl was a dumpster fire.....He was collecting a paycheck. You can be a fan of him if you want. I'll trust what Joerger is doing.

For a dumpster fire he managed to develop WCS and put him in positions to succeed (same with Casspi but he's not a young guy) and had a better winning % than DJ at the midway point who has neither won nor developed players (actually they have badly regressed) and DJ has a way more veteran roster who actually buy into what he's doing where as Karl was battling Cousins/Rudy all year long it's pretty bad if the guy collecting a paycheck is doing a better job than the guy we just locked up for 4 years.

 

[kingjatt]

I don't want to flame Joerger just yet. I have hopes that after the all-star break when the Kings are dead in the water for good, the rookies will get some more playing time. I atleast hold out hope that this is the case. Maybe Vlade sways a trade for a young player or draft pick or maybe he stands pat and takes the jabs to the face with dignity and head held high. Either way, from the very beginning, Joerger himself said that this season is not about winning and making the playoffs more so than it is to establish a culture and so far he has done just that. Yeah, the plays he plays aren't what we want to see but that also goes back to Vlade giving him way too many washed up veterans to play around with and therefore you see different vets on any given night, receive their minutes if the other isn't performing well.

Agree for the most part, Joerger is not and should not be going anywhere just for continuities sake but his stale uncreative offense and poor rotations at times is frustrating. He gets a clean shot at building this team for 3-5 years and we evaluate from there. But we need a real GM, a real scouting staff who produce real prospects not this crap we have seen under vlade/pda.

 

[kingjatt]

For a dumpster fire he managed to develop WCS and put him in positions to succeed (same with Casspi but he's not a young guy) and had a better winning % than DJ at the midway point who has neither won nor developed players (actually they have badly regressed) and DJ has a way more veteran roster who actually buy into what he's doing where as Karl was battling Cousins/Rudy all year long it's pretty bad if the guy collecting a paycheck is doing a better job than the guy we just locked up for 4 years.

WCS got alot of lobs and layups from Rondo getting in the paint, now that we have no one who can dribble into the paint he looks useless. He can play and contribute alot better with a penitrating wing or guard by his side.

Karl had the offense down, granted we dont have a guard with half the talent that rondo has(says alot seeing as how rondo has been benched for a month) but in watching the rest of the league the dribble drive fast pace offense(regular season) is what works in this league as you cant touch the guy driving to the hoop without fouling. Half court its all about pick and roll over and over until the defense scrambles and you can dribble drive and create. Post ups still have a place but its the smallest percentage of plays ran.

What did Karl in besides being a snake was his dumb switch all defense, 2 point guard lineups and running Cuz/Gay/Rondo 39/40 mins per game.

With Karls offense, Joergers defense/excellent pick and roll coverage and a mix of last years and this years players we might be better.

Karl overachieved with the personnel he had as it was mismatched with his philosophy. Maybe with time and his own players down the line his system would have produced more wins?

I think all along the blame (as i am realizing now) was too much on Karl and should be more on our front office/ownership overating the talent on the roster and just throwing coach after coach under the bus.

 

[KingMilz]

Karl overachieved with the personnel he had as it was mismatched with his philosophy. Maybe with time and his own players down the line his system would have produced more wins?

I think all along the blame (as i am realizing now) was too much on Karl and should be more on our front office/ownership overating the talent on the roster and just throwing coach after coach under the bus.

That's exactly when I'm trying to say if Vlade actually gave Karl the team we wanted we might have actually been a 500. team and got swept in the playoffs. Vlade has zero clue what he's doing and he gets a free pass cause he's on DMC nut sack. The guy has done the near impossible and put together one of the least athletic teams with one of the lowest IQ's also that's hard to do.

 

[KingsFanGER]

I assume you would therefore be that idiot who asks for 5 new cards everytime in 5-card draw, even with an ace in the hand.

Except this isn't five card draw but the NBA and it's a pretty save assumption by now, that our lone ace can't lead us to the promised land on his own even when he is paired with what you called gritty vets during the offseason and our GM has left us with basically no assets to bring in someone, who might be able to help Cousins win more than 35 games.
KingDivac opinion might be a bit premature, because we aren't out of the race for the 8th yet. But when we take into account, that there is no real plan in place (ouside of the thin hope, that reaching the 8th place without a winning record might still lure a big time FA to SAC), how to make this team take the next step to a team, which is able to win 50% of the games and has shot at reaching the second round, it's certainly not an idiotic opinion.

 

[dude12]

For a dumpster fire he managed to develop WCS and put him in positions to succeed (same with Casspi but he's not a young guy) and had a better winning % than DJ at the midway point who has neither won nor developed players (actually they have badly regressed) and DJ has a way more veteran roster who actually buy into what he's doing where as Karl was battling Cousins/Rudy all year long it's pretty bad if the guy collecting a paycheck is doing a better job than the guy we just locked up for 4 years.

You don't get it

 

[King Baller]

The product on the floor is better this season under Joerger than it was last season under Karl. It has not translated to wins and that is puzzling. I suspect Rondo may have been better for the Karl coached Kings than he was given credit for. Clearly though Rondo's freelancing ways do not mesh well with some coaches. I suspect that would be the case with Joerger. Joerger is a Players Coach but he does call a lot of plays especially after a time out.

It ain't easy being a Kings Fans, but they are still my #1 sports team

GO KINGS!!!!! BEAT THE PISTONS!!!!!

 

[dude12]

That's exactly when I'm trying to say if Vlade actually gave Karl the team we wanted we might have actually been a 500. team and got swept in the playoffs. Vlade has zero clue what he's doing and he gets a free pass cause he's on DMC nut sack. The guy has done the near impossible and put together one of the least athletic teams with one of the lowest IQ's also that's hard to do.

Yep....everything comes back to Cousins when it gets right down to it as far as you and the other like minded posts are concerned.

Why don't you explain how Karl got fired after winning coach of the year in Denver and then quickly lost the team in Sac.

 

[andjel]

That's exactly when I'm trying to say if Vlade actually gave Karl the team we wanted we might have actually been a 500. team and got swept in the playoffs. Vlade has zero clue what he's doing and he gets a free pass cause he's on DMC nut sack. The guy has done the near impossible and put together one of the least athletic teams with one of the lowest IQ's also that's hard to do.

Are you stating that Karl would make Kings 500. team without Cuz this year?

The falling apart in January is the same on the w/l level, but it is completely different story beyond that.
About this time last year, Karl was about as important as a towel boy to the players, this year the whole organization players/coach/gm is holding together and I do not see any hints of anything similar to defeatism from the last year (despite the record being the same).

 

[New Era]

I assume you would therefore be that idiot who asks for 5 new cards everytime in 5-card draw, even with an ace in the hand.

You are correct that Cuz is our ace but you are looking at this wrong. You have to imagine you're playing 5 card draw and there are 8 wildcards in the deck. You were dealt an ace along with 4 other crap cards. The right play is to throw everything out, even the ace, because you have a better chance at a wildcard. The wildcards, of course, represent young players and draft picks.

 

[New Era]

Are you stating that Karl would make Kings 500. team without Cuz this year?

The falling apart in January is the same on the w/l level, but it is completely different story beyond that.
About this time last year, Karl was about as important as a towel boy to the players, this year the whole organization players/coach/gm is holding together and I do not see any hints of anything similar to defeatism from the last year (despite the record being the same).

It all depends on who we could have gotten for Cuz. Karl was pretty successful in Denver with a group of guys, none whom had the talent of Cuz. He won 57 games that year! I think it was clear in the very beginning that Karl saw how disruptive Cuz was and it wasn't going to be a good fit. We all, of course, blamed Karl because he was "senile" and "washed up." Now we have a "good" coach and it's the same stuff this year as previous years. The excuse this year being that Cuz needs the right pieces around him (even though most around here were pretty happy with the offseason pickups).

 

[dude12]

It all depends on who we could have gotten for Cuz. Karl was pretty successful in Denver with a group of guys, none whom had the talent of Cuz. He won 57 games that year! I think it was clear in the very beginning that Karl saw how disruptive Cuz was and it wasn't going to be a good fit. We all, of course, blamed Karl because he was "senile" and "washed up." Now we have a "good" coach and it's the same stuff this year as previous years. The excuse this year being that Cuz needs the right pieces around him (even though most around here were pretty happy with the offseason pickups).

Maybe you can answer why Karl got fired in Denver?

 

[New Era]

Maybe you can answer why Karl got fired in Denver?

No idea.

 

[Bricklayer]

You are correct that Cuz is our ace but you are looking at this wrong. You have to imagine you're playing 5 card draw and there are 8 wildcards in the deck. You were dealt an ace along with 4 other crap cards. The right play is to throw everything out, even the ace, because you have a better chance at a wildcard. The wildcards, of course, represent young players and draft picks.

That's ridiculous. There are no wildcards. There MIGHT, if you are lucky lucky lucky, be another ace. More likely there's a 7 a 9 and a 3.

With one ace you are already halfway home to strong pair. you need one good draw. Once you toss the ace you have, you are just randomly fishing. Its not strategy, its prayer.

That's before we get to the point that you have the only ace in the entire history of the franchise who actually wants to stay in your hand. You can go fishing all you want and the next kid is as likely as not to go take his talents to South Beach because in NBA terms Sacto is and always will remain a cow patty town.

Anyway that's largely decided. Cuz will sign his extension, people will either get used to it or waste an even longer chunk of their life whining and kvetching. The coach is here, the franchise player is here. People need to accept that and move on to more reasonable discussions about how to turn Anthony Tolliver into Draymond Green.

 

[Bricklayer]

It all depends on who we could have gotten for Cuz. Karl was pretty successful in Denver with a group of guys, none whom had the talent of Cuz. He won 57 games that year! I think it was clear in the very beginning that Karl saw how disruptive Cuz was and it wasn't going to be a good fit. We all, of course, blamed Karl because he was "senile" and "washed up." Now we have a "good" coach and it's the same stuff this year as previous years. The excuse this year being that Cuz needs the right pieces around him (even though most around here were pretty happy with the offseason pickups).

And its not the same stuff at all. The team is in remarkably good shape spiritwise and fights. It just lacks the offensive talent to get over the top.

George Karl was a lifelong jerk. He's even a jerk in retirement. Its not even good riddance at this point. It is old news. He played his game, he lost. True crocodile tears. He was a blip that will be remembered with about as much significance in Sacto as Dick Motta is today. I know about him because I was there. In 20 years a younger generation of fans will be who? If they even care enough to ask.

 

[kupman]

That's ridiculous. There are no wildcards. There MIGHT, if you are lucky lucky lucky, be another ace. More likely there's a 7 a 9 and a 3.

With one ace you are already halfway home to strong pair. you need one good draw. Once you toss the ace you have, you are just randomly fishing. Its not strategy, its prayer.

That's before we get to the point that you have the only ace in the entire history of the franchise who actually wants to stay in your hand. You can go fishing all you want and the next kid is as likely as not to go take his talents to South Beach because in NBA terms Sacto is and always will remain a cow patty town.

Anyway that's largely decided. Cuz will sign his extension, people will either get used to it or waste an even longer chunk of their life whining and kvetching. The coach is here, the franchise player is here. People need to accept that and move on to more reasonable discussions about how to turn Anthony Tolliver into Draymond Green.

LOL about turning Tolliver into Green. That is not a prayer - that is a fantasy. And yes, I know you were joking.

But on a serious note, it was not a prayer when we traded The Rock for Webber. It also was not a prayer when the Wolves traded Love for Wiggins. You could possibly trade DMC for more than a prayer.

But yes, we are keeping him by the looks of it. I accept it. I will hope for the best, but I don't like our chances sadly.

 

[John Galt]

You are correct that Cuz is our ace but you are looking at this wrong. You have to imagine you're playing 5 card draw and there are 8 wildcards in the deck. You were dealt an ace along with 4 other crap cards. The right play is to throw everything out, even the ace, because you have a better chance at a wildcard. The wildcards, of course, represent young players and draft picks.