[Grades] Grades v. Jazz 12/10/2016
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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KingsFanGER
Starter
Does he? Lets take a look at his supporting cast.
Mike Conley - elite defender
Tony Allen - elite defender
Jamychal Green - plus defender with great versatility
James Ennis - versatile, athletic guy much like Harkless is. Not the most skilled, but in the right system works pretty well.
Andrew Harrison - big, strong guard, able to switch every screen
Troy Daniels - sharpshooter, high energy guy even if he is not the best on D
The Grizzlies are the best example, that it's about fit and mindset in this league and having players, that fill a certain role. People see nonames and assume, they are a bad team, but the Grizzlies have a very good idea, who they are hiring over the years. Most of their additions were athletic guys with positional versatility, that work out as long as there is a system in place not forcing them to do more, that they are able to do.
The Grizzlies are pretty much this years Trailblazers, where every analyst just thought they added noneone able to help the team, only to come away suprised, how well this pieces fit together.
Their veteran core just brings this mindset, that makes it easier for young players to come in and contribute. This mindset is a great thing to have.
And this mindset is the real big questionmark with DMC. You obviously believe he doesn't have it. I understand why you choose to believe that.
I just am willing to hold my judgement until finally there is a supporting cast in place around DMC, that fits his strengths and weaknesses, who are not that different from the strength and weaknesses of Gasol.
Give me someone like Tony Allen and tough, motivated, physical, versatile guys at every position around DMC and I will be a happy Kings fans for once. I said so in the offseason and nothing I was forced to watch this season convinced me to change my mind.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
needed to cash the chips in on him as soon as we can. he was starting to look good now that carriage is reverting back to a pumpkin... is it midnight yet?
love reke but don't know how his knees are. think its partially due to him having to bulk up to play SF during his first stint with the kings. we do need that 2nd player that will draw the opposing defenses. we had that and let it get away years ago during the initial 3.0 era. smdh
KingsFanGER
Starter
K
KingMilz
Guest
You do realise Brandon Wright/Conley/Parsons/Ennis/Vince Carter and Z-Bo has missed either long portions of the season or basically the entire season in Parsons/Wright and his current 6-0 supporting cast that beatdown the Warriors is Troy Williams (undrafted rookie), PG Andrew Harrison (D-Leaguer last year), Green (fringe starter) and Tony Allen who missed quiet a few games as well. Sharpshooter Daneils aside from one light out game is shooting 36% from the field and a league average 35% from 3 (not exactly lighting it up) and they got 3rd stringer Tony Douglas running the back up PG duties. Z-Bo is going strong but he also missed a few games during the run due to his mothers passing but he's on his last legs.
You also say give me someone physical/motivated like Tony Allen ummm Garrett Temple/Matt Barnes?
He's got legit the worst current supporting cast in the NBA
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Big Cuz 15
All-Star
did karl even coach? word was that he gave the keys to rondo and let him do whatever. it was basically rondo running the show.
i don't see a whole lot of high post offense with movement in joergers sets. can vlade suggest bringing in adelman in a coachie role to help him design some of the offensive sets? we're highly dependent on cousins. you know the defense will be locked on him .. i don't see any of our players going backdoor when they have their head towards cousins. that was one of the things the kings did really good back in the day.
i don't see a whole lot of high post offense with movement in joergers sets. can vlade suggest bringing in adelman in a coachie role to help him design some of the offensive sets? we're highly dependent on cousins. you know the defense will be locked on him .. i don't see any of our players going backdoor when they have their head towards cousins. that was one of the things the kings did really good back in the day.
KingsFanGER
Starter
Yes I do realize it and no he hasn't the worst supporting cast in the NBA. By names - yes of course. But not when we take overall fit into account.
The Grizzlies fit, what I wanted the Kings to do all offseason. Surround an offensive big man with lengthy, athletic hard working guys, who play good D and play their hearts out.
And please - Matt Barnes isn't even on the same planet with Tony Allen anymore. Temple? Yes I like the addition. But one capable defender simply isn't enough. Last year DMC was our best defender. Now he is our second best after Temple. And DMC isn't even that good on D, due to his obvious weaknesses when stepping out on the perimeter and his tendency to reach instead of moving his feet.
K
KingMilz
Guest
So Marc Gasol has a current better supporting cast than DMC cause it supposedly fits better? Maybe the reason it fits together is cause of Gasol?
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jcwkings
All-Star
Marc Gasol has been the best big in the league this year. Dominant on both ends and leading his team to victory after victory while the "sexy names" (Cousins, Davis, Towns) continue to mire in mediocrity. If Cousins carried himself like Gasol he would be a top 5 NBA player. You can just see how much his teammates love him and will run through walls to follow his lead.
CelticsFan
Bench
Allen has won 3 first team all defensive awards and 2 second team all defensive awards. Can't compare his defense with Temple or Barnes, I agree with you
K
KingMilz
Guest
To be fair at no point did he say anythign about defense he said this
Barnes/Temple fit that criteria had he put in the elite defender criteria I would not have brought it up. But Temple has been a gun defender this season he's just been grossly under utilized by Dave Joeger.
I agree that fit is extremely important, but I think you're jumping the gun a little bit by assuming that it's a given those guys play good D and play their hearts out. Why can that be said about them and not about our team? Regardless, I think you make a valid point, and that at least makes a little sense. You're saying we haven't constructed a good roster to win games, and that's why we're losing. That's reasonable! What I cannot understand is how some can look at our performance, look at our record and say, "Meh, it's all good we're gonna make the playoffs! We're really not as bad as our record shows because we've been losing to a every other team that has been overachieving, but don't worry we're still good enough to make the playoffs"
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
You can't change the stripes on a Zebra, you can only paint it a different color.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Good lord.
The Marc Gasol stuff is sometimes funny.
He's shown he isn't dead yet. Well, rebounds like he's dead. But has a solid argument against guys like Towns, who isn't making an impact, or Whiteside, for the moment at least. But no, the league has moved well beyond the embarrassing days when Marc Gasol had an argument for best big. The league is right on the cusp of a bigtime big man rebirth actually. Depending on health, could half half a dozen HOF bigs in the league right now. Marc not being one of them,
jcwkings
All-Star
Marc Gasol has won a DPOY award and has led his team to deep playoff runs and perrenial 50 win seasons, 1st team all NBA. You will never see Marc Gasol sleepwalking through games and letting guys just drive around him like a knife through butter like Cousins did vs Utah. Cousins is a great talent but his intangibles and ability to lead and inspire are severely lacking. Those are the things Gasol thrives with. He is a cerebral defender much like Duncan was. It will not shock me if Cousins has a "frustrating" night when we play Memphis this year. Your constant flaw is that you always rely on individual stats when making your "Cuz HOF" arguements. We all know he puts up amazing numbers and is extremely talented.How about you put the calculator and spreadsheets down for a minute and just observe how Cousins carries himself and how the team mirrors his volatile personality.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Marc Gasol has been one good player on a team full of them for most of his career. Many years he's probably been the best. The rest is just him being overrated by people eager to overrate. He's on a hot streak now, so all the same nonsense people will start spouting all the same nonsense. At 32 years old everybody and their grandmother knows what he is and is not, and he won't sustain this. But that won't stop the nonsense. And he absolutely does have crap games. And because he's a lesser talent, when he has crap games he completely abdicates any possible claim to being a franchise level player.
here are some games from this season alone:
vs. Miami (lose by 9): 9pts (4-11FG) 1reb(!) 2ast 5blk
vs Minny (win by 22): 6pts (2-12FG) 7reb 3ast 2blk
vs. New Orleans (win by 6): 8pts (3-18FG) 11reb 6ast 3blk
interesting against 3 of the young buck bigs too.
I can only imagine how many points we'd lose by if Cuz started peppering in 6pt games. marc gasol is a star on a hot streak. Not a superstar. He's never had to completely carry a franchise on his back every single night, which is good, because he's not capable of it. Like most stars in his position, he can win games when he's going good, and then step back and let others do it when he's not. That's a luxury the superstars surrounded by not much don't have. He's done a nice job since Conley went down, but the results are delicate there too. Memphis is living dangerously and just half a push from losing on a lot of nights. They're just a little more used to winning than we are.
jcwkings
All-Star
I would say its like Boogie is a beautiful girl thats just a ten in the looks department, an absolute fox. Thing is she has a bad tempermant, is high maintenance and can be a drag to be around. Yes shes stunning, and great to takeout on occasions so you look like a total baller, but you know at home she is a pain in the butt. Gasol is the cute girl that is acutally awesome to hang out with, and will cook you a great meal. Gasol is wifey material and Cousins is the fox you tell your son/grandson about.
jcwkings
All-Star
Well Gasol had those bad games and they were still 2-1. He won DPOY for a reason. Even when he is having a bad shooting night he is still doing other things to help the team win, including being a great facilitator and a dominant defensive player. When Cousins is having a terrible shooting night he is berating the refs and loafing and pouting up and down the floor, comprising the team. Usually.
CelticsFan
Bench
Nice post!
CelticsFan
Bench
And you know what they say. Find me that beautiful 10 and Ill find you the guy sick of ****ing her.
When everything is said and done I'll take Cousins career over Gasol's
kingsfan1984
Starter
Here is my optimisim....Im in the camp that thinks Cousins is a big bright spot on this team and prefer to be patient (as hard as that is) while this franchise flounders around trying to build a decent team around him. I actually think that despit all the disfunction, we have a good shot at resigning Cousins based on the things he has said and that is huge...i mean who else out there with his talent level will we be able to sign? Or how long would we have to wait for another pick to get drafted by us and then develop?
That said, i completely understand the sentiment of those that want to blow it up and trade him. I just think that the odds we get another talent or two that develope and then stay here are less than the odds we can get a few lesser talented players to either finally develop aroud Cuz or sign here, whoxh IMO would be enoighbtobpish us over the hump into Houston Rockets lvl competativness. WCS i think will figure it out and be fine. I see potential in all our picks this year and Bog coming next year. Rudy i want to be traded very strongly and be the 6th man until that happens or the year ends and he signs somewhere else. The free agent crop this year sucked and the few guys worth signjng had huge, future handicapping deals given to them...i have no problem with the cheap veteran scraps we got and Im very happy with Temple. Next year looks much more promising. We have a young GM that has a unique ability with poeple that is very underrated. He gets much crap for not turning feces into wine, but other than the Big Pap pick this year ive been just fine with his moves. Huge props to securing a highly rated coach to come to this circus. Thats was a borderline miracle that speaks to Vlades strengths not luck. That same "force" or pressure is a positive that will help bring other unlikely talented people and players to the team to help us hit above our weit so to speak. And Vivek is also a young owner who is smart and inovative and is quickly finding his role within the organization he bought and how to be a good owner.....in short, while i get the pessimism, in the face of the gale force of another season of continued sucktitude, there are positive things to light a light at the end of the tunnel. In kings land its always good to remember how closely "it can always be much worse" are nipping at our heals, and use that as a reminder to give the positive forces more patience, more than 1 and a half seasons, before you unleash the tsunami of pain and frustration and wash away the handful of good things away....give the seeds a chance to bloom man.
That said, i completely understand the sentiment of those that want to blow it up and trade him. I just think that the odds we get another talent or two that develope and then stay here are less than the odds we can get a few lesser talented players to either finally develop aroud Cuz or sign here, whoxh IMO would be enoighbtobpish us over the hump into Houston Rockets lvl competativness. WCS i think will figure it out and be fine. I see potential in all our picks this year and Bog coming next year. Rudy i want to be traded very strongly and be the 6th man until that happens or the year ends and he signs somewhere else. The free agent crop this year sucked and the few guys worth signjng had huge, future handicapping deals given to them...i have no problem with the cheap veteran scraps we got and Im very happy with Temple. Next year looks much more promising. We have a young GM that has a unique ability with poeple that is very underrated. He gets much crap for not turning feces into wine, but other than the Big Pap pick this year ive been just fine with his moves. Huge props to securing a highly rated coach to come to this circus. Thats was a borderline miracle that speaks to Vlades strengths not luck. That same "force" or pressure is a positive that will help bring other unlikely talented people and players to the team to help us hit above our weit so to speak. And Vivek is also a young owner who is smart and inovative and is quickly finding his role within the organization he bought and how to be a good owner.....in short, while i get the pessimism, in the face of the gale force of another season of continued sucktitude, there are positive things to light a light at the end of the tunnel. In kings land its always good to remember how closely "it can always be much worse" are nipping at our heals, and use that as a reminder to give the positive forces more patience, more than 1 and a half seasons, before you unleash the tsunami of pain and frustration and wash away the handful of good things away....give the seeds a chance to bloom man.
Well, I mean, all that leftover feces he couldn't turn into wine has to go somewhere right?
KingsFanGER
Starter
True. I didn't make clear, what I wanted to say.
But let's be honest, the biggest criteria for playing great defense is athleticism and length nowadays. It was clear as day, that a team like Golden State struggles when their speed and length on the perimeter is matched. That's what was rightfully pointed out on this board all the time - Golden State is not a small team. Their big man positions tend to be small, when they insert their most potent lineups, but overall they still have great length on the floor.
Players like Troy Williams, Green or Andrew Harrison are Golden States antidote. They are able to keep track and are able to bother them with their length. Provide them with a great defensive teacher like Tony Allen and those guys can really change the outcome of the game.
That's why I always feel a little bit different, when someone praises Gasol for Memphis success or praises him as a great leader. For me it 's obvious, that the guy really leading the charge for Memphis is the grindfather himself. Gasol is the best player, but Allen is the heart and soul of the team.
And that's why after all I'm not willing to give up on Cousins, until we surround him with a guy like Allen (notice my solid man crush for Marcus Smart?
) and long, athletic guys able to hit a 3pt shot at league average and willing to work extremely hard to cover their star on D. And I'm frustrated as hell, when I'm forced to watch guys like Affalo or Rudy, who seem to coast through games ( Rudy started great, but slowly falls back into his usual routine) or guys like Ben or Willie playing like deers in the headlights and not using their athleticism at all.I agree, that Temple is underutilized. But again - one capable defender, doesn't change the outlook of this team. We need a whole bunch and we desperately need a real defensive playmaker and role model.
K
KingMilz
Guest
For great defense yeah but for truly elite man to man lockdown defense it's strength and speed all the elite man to man guys are freakishly strong like Allen/Jimmy Butler/Kawahi/Smart/Wes (Portland) even guys like PJ Tucker make up for lack of length with being just quick enough and compensate with ridiculous strength prime Ron Ron is a perfect example. You got plenty of good defenders like MKG (who I really love)/same goes for Temples but he's far better off defending against SG's than he is against guys like Melo/Rudy/any decent sized SF who just bully him you can't bully those other guys I mean Smart was locking down Milsap at times in the playoffs in the post.True. I didn't make clear, what I wanted to say.
But let's be honest, the biggest criteria for playing great defense is athleticism and length nowadays. It was clear as day, that a team like Golden State struggles when their speed and length on the perimeter is matched. That's what was rightfully pointed out on this board all the time - Golden State is not a small team. Their big man positions tend to be small, when they insert their most potent lineups, but overall they still have great length on the floor.
Players like Troy Williams, Green or Andrew Harrison are Golden States antidote. They are able to keep track and are able to bother them with their length. Provide them with a great defensive teacher like Tony Allen and those guys can really change the outcome of the game.
That's why I always feel a little bit different, when someone praises Gasol for Memphis success or praises him as a great leader. For me it 's obvious, that the guy really leading the charge for Memphis is the grindfather himself. Gasol is the best player, but Allen is the heart and soul of the team.
And that's why after all I'm not willing to give up on Cousins, until we surround him with a guy like Allen (notice my solid man crush for Marcus Smart?
I agree, that Temple is underutilized. But again - one capable defender, doesn't change the outlook of this team. We need a whole bunch and we desperately need a real defensive playmaker and role model.
In regards to Mclemore to me besides him being soft mentally he's pretty weak when it comes to defending in terms of strenght he gets moved easily and his length/quickness really don't count for anything
I completely agree with you about Tony Allen I made a similar remark in the December thread in regards to him being the current #2 best player on the team but the reality is they could win without Tony they could not win without Marc. I'm fairly sure Allen has been out quiet a bit the last two seasons and the Grizz did just fine but his impact this year has been ridiculous.
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KingsFanGER
Starter
You are right, but elite defenders are hard to get. Guys like Williams, Harkless, Crowder or Aminu aren't elite. They aren't even very skilled basketball players, hence why a lot of old fashioned fans tend to look down on them and claim, how overpaid they are. But they give their teams extremely versatile lineups, that can cause havoc with their quickness and ability to switch everything.
I would love to get at least one true elite defender, who can guard 1 to smaller 4's. Smart can do that. The rest of the team just needs to be able to hold their ground on D like Temple.
And please don't think I want to diminish the talent of Marc Gasol. I think he is a great big to have with great intangibles and an overall offensive game, that fits well in todays league. He is the best player the Grizzlies have and he plays a huge role in their success. He has two big advantages over DMC - he plays smart and he is more decisive. When watching the Grizzlies one things always stands out - Marc Gasol won't waste time jabstepping or scanning the floor. Against Golden State he catched the ball on the first few posessions and made his move before the quick GS D could react. Because he is able to fade away from the defender he is very difficult to guard. Cousins on the other hand with his tendency to slow things down, to size his man up or to crash into the D to draw fouls sometimes make things easy for the opposing D.
But lets not act, like Gasol was always the player he is now. He has come very far in his career. And Gasol and Cousins aren't far off when it comes to general strengths and weaknesses with Cousins simply being the more talented individual.
Cousins is much stronger, quicker on his feet and the more gifted scorer and the better rebounder due to his physical presence. But he seems stubborn to a fault. He will settle for low efficiency plays with his "I show you" attitude. Espescially against defenders, who are able to match his strength like O'Quinn. Gasol won't do that. Gasol knows how to win. Cousins doesn't.
That's the status quo. Question is, if Cousins can learn how to win.
I think he can, when we finally surround him with talent that fits. But I can't prove it to you, which is why we have to agree to disagree here.
With claiming, that Tony Allen is the leader of the Grizzlies I only wanted to show one thing : your best player doesn't necessarily be your leader or the guy, who sets the tone for everyone else. That's not the case in Memphis and that's not the case in Boston, where Smart, Bradley and Crowder are the vocal guys hyping everyone up and leading by example, while IT is the best player.
Alon Rosen
Prospect
I liked Karl, but Dave is a great coach for the Kings - because of his defensive thinking.
As i see it, he did a big mistake with Omri, at the beginning...
You can not bench a player that gave you 12ppg/almost 50%fg/more defensive rebounds than Lebron and Durrant per M/41%3pt/+8 in a losing side as a role player
it's wrong mathematically - especially when you don't bring someone that served you better, both in attack and defense. numbers are the bottom line.
Well you can, but it is costly... And to understand it late does not benefit the team.
This team needs just two things to be a fine qualified side:
1)Consistency
2)Very qualified point guard, in it starting lineup, to make baskets and to dish assists
As i see it, he did a big mistake with Omri, at the beginning...
You can not bench a player that gave you 12ppg/almost 50%fg/more defensive rebounds than Lebron and Durrant per M/41%3pt/+8 in a losing side as a role player
it's wrong mathematically - especially when you don't bring someone that served you better, both in attack and defense. numbers are the bottom line.
Well you can, but it is costly... And to understand it late does not benefit the team.
This team needs just two things to be a fine qualified side:
1)Consistency
2)Very qualified point guard, in it starting lineup, to make baskets and to dish assists
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