Grades v. Jazz 10/20 (PRE)
- Thread starter Bricklayer
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Brad Miller may have 3 inches on SAR.......however, lets not act as though he uses his 7'0 body. He plays like a p.g. on offense and I simply refuse to mention his defense. SAR is by no means a game-changer on defense, but he is a far superior man-up defender. And as Roman stated earlier, there are not many dominating Centers in the league. Against the few great centers in the NBA, Brad would get dominated anyways. At least Reef could get them in foul trouble by making them work on defense.
3 inches means very little when you play like your closer to 6'7".
I'd agree that 3 inches is a lot if he used it. But he doesn't. Bonzi Wells plays closer to 7' than Brad Miller does.
He doesn't challenge shots. He doesn't tend the net or alter shots. He doesn't grab rebounds unless they roll to him.
He plays like a grounded PG/SG. He lets everyone past him and waits for the help defense. He doesn't challenge. He is a jump shooter with little post game. He passes better than he does anything else.
I just think those 3 inches are overrated.
This was a little harsh - so I'm adding: Brad Miller is a very good basketball player. I just, personally, believe that his skills are overrated for the center position and that there would be zero dropoff defensively or rebound-wise if he was replaced with a low-post oriented SAR. I also believe that would be a smart move for this team as I don't think that KT should be on the bench either.
I'd agree that 3 inches is a lot if he used it. But he doesn't. Bonzi Wells plays closer to 7' than Brad Miller does.
He doesn't challenge shots. He doesn't tend the net or alter shots. He doesn't grab rebounds unless they roll to him.
He plays like a grounded PG/SG. He lets everyone past him and waits for the help defense. He doesn't challenge. He is a jump shooter with little post game. He passes better than he does anything else.
I just think those 3 inches are overrated.
This was a little harsh - so I'm adding: Brad Miller is a very good basketball player. I just, personally, believe that his skills are overrated for the center position and that there would be zero dropoff defensively or rebound-wise if he was replaced with a low-post oriented SAR. I also believe that would be a smart move for this team as I don't think that KT should be on the bench either.
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That's a BIG 'if'. He's closer to 0 blocks per game than he is 2 blocks per game. I mean, he's just north of half a block a game for his career. This doesn't inspire me to believe he's about to change his defensive ways and become the next Theo Ratliff.
Not just that, but steals and blocks can be terribly misleading as an indicator of defensive prowess. For instance, Theo Ratliff was a block machine but overall he was quite a subpar defender. His saving grace was that he was a pogo stick and could alter a million shots and make people think twice about hitting the lane hard. But, he was a poor rebounder and always out of position because of this.
While Shareef is no defensive stalwart, I think he's loads better than Brad Miller and at least exerts effort on the defensive end.
Not just that, but steals and blocks can be terribly misleading as an indicator of defensive prowess. For instance, Theo Ratliff was a block machine but overall he was quite a subpar defender. His saving grace was that he was a pogo stick and could alter a million shots and make people think twice about hitting the lane hard. But, he was a poor rebounder and always out of position because of this.
While Shareef is no defensive stalwart, I think he's loads better than Brad Miller and at least exerts effort on the defensive end.
He may be a better player than Shareef. I'm not going to deny that. Just as I wouldn't deny that Shareef may be a better player than Brad Miller. I'm certainly not going to base that ascertation on a subset of 3 basketball games, much less 3 preseason basketball games.
What I am going to deny is that he's a consequentially better defender or a better low post player. They rebound about the same, with the edge going to Shareef on career numbers.
I'm not arguing who is better or who likes ham and cheese sandwiches. I'm saying that I think Shareef at the center spot would be a potentially better thing for the Sacramento Kings.
I believe it would open up the offense by giving us a true option in the post and another legit 20PPG guy on the floor.
What we lose is a guy that distributes the ball well and can hit open jumpers. Two great things, but not something I'd be immediately concerned about. Especially considering that I believe a low post offense of Shareef and Artest could be something of beauty. Where SAR gets doubled leaving Martin/Artest/Bibby to hit open looks. I don't think Shareef needs to score loads to be effective with our guys.
If their defense is equal, or even close to equal, I think Shareef would be a better solution for this team.
I know your name is BMILLER52, but putting aside homerish feelings - can you really say that Brad Miller is significantly better than Reef defensively? (Regardless of what he's done in the preseason) Can you say that he's a better scorer? Can you say he's a better low post scorer?
What I am going to deny is that he's a consequentially better defender or a better low post player. They rebound about the same, with the edge going to Shareef on career numbers.
I'm not arguing who is better or who likes ham and cheese sandwiches. I'm saying that I think Shareef at the center spot would be a potentially better thing for the Sacramento Kings.
I believe it would open up the offense by giving us a true option in the post and another legit 20PPG guy on the floor.
What we lose is a guy that distributes the ball well and can hit open jumpers. Two great things, but not something I'd be immediately concerned about. Especially considering that I believe a low post offense of Shareef and Artest could be something of beauty. Where SAR gets doubled leaving Martin/Artest/Bibby to hit open looks. I don't think Shareef needs to score loads to be effective with our guys.
If their defense is equal, or even close to equal, I think Shareef would be a better solution for this team.
I know your name is BMILLER52, but putting aside homerish feelings - can you really say that Brad Miller is significantly better than Reef defensively? (Regardless of what he's done in the preseason) Can you say that he's a better scorer? Can you say he's a better low post scorer?
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I'm not even a Miller fan anymore, he's just a pretty good player on a team I happen to like. My fav players are Martin/Artest/Bibby, and I couldn't care less if any of our frontcourt guys were traded as long as we got better.
If we have Reef starting at C and then Ron plays out of the post even more-great. From what I've seen Brad is a better defender so far under Musselman, and under Adelman they both sucked at defense after Miller broke his leg but Shareef played decent D on Duncan(however he averaged like 4.5 fouls that series, explains why he got little PT). He hasn't been a 20 point scorer in years. Face it playmaker your boy has fallen off hard. Brad right now is a better rebounder, check the per 40 min rebounding stats on bballreference.com. If he can be a better shotblocker, than he's just a much better defender/rebounder than Reef all around. And yes I'm being unbiased, seeing as I don't even like Miller that much anymore and I know Reef has some neat low post moves. But that's just what they are-neat. They take him a while to pull off or he gets called for the travel. Sometimes it's an offense stopper.
He deserves to start a few games at Center but don't get it wrong man, Miller deserves to start the majority because he's the better player.
If we have Reef starting at C and then Ron plays out of the post even more-great. From what I've seen Brad is a better defender so far under Musselman, and under Adelman they both sucked at defense after Miller broke his leg but Shareef played decent D on Duncan(however he averaged like 4.5 fouls that series, explains why he got little PT). He hasn't been a 20 point scorer in years. Face it playmaker your boy has fallen off hard. Brad right now is a better rebounder, check the per 40 min rebounding stats on bballreference.com. If he can be a better shotblocker, than he's just a much better defender/rebounder than Reef all around. And yes I'm being unbiased, seeing as I don't even like Miller that much anymore and I know Reef has some neat low post moves. But that's just what they are-neat. They take him a while to pull off or he gets called for the travel. Sometimes it's an offense stopper.
He deserves to start a few games at Center but don't get it wrong man, Miller deserves to start the majority because he's the better player.
I wouldn't look at per40 anything in regards to SAR last year. He played hurt and about 20-30 pounds off what would be considered his playing weight.
I also would not look at 3 games as being any indication that Brad Miller is a "better defender" under Muss than Adleman. Just as I want to see SAR play center more before I say that this lineup is truly an option.
As for a 20 PPG guy:
Is SAR still capable of being a 20 PPG guy? I don't know.
It was only 2 years ago that he was averaging 20 and 9 while shooting only 15 shots a game. I'd find it hard to believe his skills have diminished that much in the past 2 years. It's possible, but I find it an unlikely scenario.
Should SAR be a 20 PPG guy in Sacramento? I don't know that either.
I, personally, believe that Sacramento needs to have some semblance of a post game. Artest isn't good enough on the post to be the only option.
Right now, if the starting unit sticks, we'll be a perimeter team with one functional post player. That MAY work in the preseason and the regular season, but I just refuse to believe we make it in the playoffs and win even one round.
As for his post moves and being travel prone, he averaged no more and no less than any other post player who touched the ball a lot throughout his career.
I also would not look at 3 games as being any indication that Brad Miller is a "better defender" under Muss than Adleman. Just as I want to see SAR play center more before I say that this lineup is truly an option.
As for a 20 PPG guy:
Is SAR still capable of being a 20 PPG guy? I don't know.
It was only 2 years ago that he was averaging 20 and 9 while shooting only 15 shots a game. I'd find it hard to believe his skills have diminished that much in the past 2 years. It's possible, but I find it an unlikely scenario.
Should SAR be a 20 PPG guy in Sacramento? I don't know that either.
I, personally, believe that Sacramento needs to have some semblance of a post game. Artest isn't good enough on the post to be the only option.
Right now, if the starting unit sticks, we'll be a perimeter team with one functional post player. That MAY work in the preseason and the regular season, but I just refuse to believe we make it in the playoffs and win even one round.
As for his post moves and being travel prone, he averaged no more and no less than any other post player who touched the ball a lot throughout his career.
I am talking about the way the refs called him during his tenure with us when I say he's travel prone.
Artest is a good post player, he just doesn't go down there enough. To say SAR is a better post player(when they're both playing in the post) is wrong. Ron is 260 going up against 6'7'' 230 guys, when he posts up he is flat out unstoppable. He gets to the line quite easily and gets an And1 sometimes. He has a couple other moves in the post but SFs have a harder time stopping Ron there than PFs do Reef. Reef=undersized for his position. Ron=oversized for his position. After 1 preseason game you are claiming that Reef+Kenny=good frontline, and base it on what you saw in a preseason game. But when I say Miller's stats over the whole preseason, which IMO are much more impressive you throw them out the window. It's funny.
Miller is a better rebounder than Reef. When Reef was starting last year he was pulling in 6.5 rebounds per game, I remember because I checked every players stats after a game. Miller averaged 7.8. Per 40 MPG(which they were both getting before Reef got hurt), Miller was still the better rebounder. Per 40 MPG last year Reef averaged 7.3 rebounds per game. Pre injury, Reef averaged about 35 MPG. That's actually pretty accurate for a stat that you claim is worthless(it doesn't tell the whole story but it's not worthless either). Per 40 MPG, Brad averaged 8.4 RPG. It's not good but it's better than Reef.
Reef got injured so the only way to effectively compare stats is preseason this year and per 40 MPG. You try to throw out my Preseason argument while bringing up yours, so only way to compare the players stats is per 40 MPG. If you throw that out than you have nothing really to back your opinion on except the fact that it's your opinion. Basically what you're trying to do is turn this in an emotional argument because your emotions tell you that your boy Reef is better, but the stats say otherwise.
Artest is a good post player, he just doesn't go down there enough. To say SAR is a better post player(when they're both playing in the post) is wrong. Ron is 260 going up against 6'7'' 230 guys, when he posts up he is flat out unstoppable. He gets to the line quite easily and gets an And1 sometimes. He has a couple other moves in the post but SFs have a harder time stopping Ron there than PFs do Reef. Reef=undersized for his position. Ron=oversized for his position. After 1 preseason game you are claiming that Reef+Kenny=good frontline, and base it on what you saw in a preseason game. But when I say Miller's stats over the whole preseason, which IMO are much more impressive you throw them out the window. It's funny.
Miller is a better rebounder than Reef. When Reef was starting last year he was pulling in 6.5 rebounds per game, I remember because I checked every players stats after a game. Miller averaged 7.8. Per 40 MPG(which they were both getting before Reef got hurt), Miller was still the better rebounder. Per 40 MPG last year Reef averaged 7.3 rebounds per game. Pre injury, Reef averaged about 35 MPG. That's actually pretty accurate for a stat that you claim is worthless(it doesn't tell the whole story but it's not worthless either). Per 40 MPG, Brad averaged 8.4 RPG. It's not good but it's better than Reef.
Reef got injured so the only way to effectively compare stats is preseason this year and per 40 MPG. You try to throw out my Preseason argument while bringing up yours, so only way to compare the players stats is per 40 MPG. If you throw that out than you have nothing really to back your opinion on except the fact that it's your opinion. Basically what you're trying to do is turn this in an emotional argument because your emotions tell you that your boy Reef is better, but the stats say otherwise.
At this point in their careers Brad is the better rebounder (Reef is just bleeping embarrassing, Brad merely sucks). Reef is the better post defender. Neither can help defend worth a damn, but Brad may actually have a slight edge because of those 3 inches and extra width -- can get an accidental block here and there just on length.
Reef is a small PF who started his career as a SF. He's not physical -- he's a finesse player. He's completely dwarfed by the serious bigs in there. He can score in the post, which is nice. But so can Ron -- in fact that is where Ron should really spend most of his time. Post play is essential for any serious push, but post play includes rebounds + defense. And its actually fairly rare for a top team to have more than one primary post option on the floor at once. Miami last year won it all with Shaq as the only post playing starter, and then Twoine off the bench. San Antonio with Duncan as the only true threat (Nazr a minor second option if there ever was one, Rasho not at all). Detroit with Sheed, but Ben not an offensive player, and Tayshaun at that time just developing post moves. With Ron in our lineup you COULD start Reef offensively, but you certainly do not have any great need to. And of course the problem with Reef starting is that even in place of Brad he puts more pressure ont eh shot distribution of the team. Brad can function as an outlet with his weak little standstill jumeprs, and get his shots without interfering much with Ron/Mike/Kevin. Reef on the other hand needs the ball intentionally thrown to him with the idea he scores. He's not an outlet option, he's a primary weapon. Its not nearly as unmanageable as repalcing Kenny with Reef, but it still unbalances the team. Reef is largely worthless unless you feed him, and if you feed him in the starting lineup then you are taking from Ron, Mike and Kevin. He, and we, are still probably better off with him off the bench where he can be the primary option and get his shots without interfering with our other primary guns. Meanwhile, offensively Brad is a classic support player, better playing with other primary options drawing attention away from him than he will ever be off the bench, where he just lacks forcefulness.
Reef is a small PF who started his career as a SF. He's not physical -- he's a finesse player. He's completely dwarfed by the serious bigs in there. He can score in the post, which is nice. But so can Ron -- in fact that is where Ron should really spend most of his time. Post play is essential for any serious push, but post play includes rebounds + defense. And its actually fairly rare for a top team to have more than one primary post option on the floor at once. Miami last year won it all with Shaq as the only post playing starter, and then Twoine off the bench. San Antonio with Duncan as the only true threat (Nazr a minor second option if there ever was one, Rasho not at all). Detroit with Sheed, but Ben not an offensive player, and Tayshaun at that time just developing post moves. With Ron in our lineup you COULD start Reef offensively, but you certainly do not have any great need to. And of course the problem with Reef starting is that even in place of Brad he puts more pressure ont eh shot distribution of the team. Brad can function as an outlet with his weak little standstill jumeprs, and get his shots without interfering much with Ron/Mike/Kevin. Reef on the other hand needs the ball intentionally thrown to him with the idea he scores. He's not an outlet option, he's a primary weapon. Its not nearly as unmanageable as repalcing Kenny with Reef, but it still unbalances the team. Reef is largely worthless unless you feed him, and if you feed him in the starting lineup then you are taking from Ron, Mike and Kevin. He, and we, are still probably better off with him off the bench where he can be the primary option and get his shots without interfering with our other primary guns. Meanwhile, offensively Brad is a classic support player, better playing with other primary options drawing attention away from him than he will ever be off the bench, where he just lacks forcefulness.
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First, SAR isn't my boy. I just think he brings something different that we need.
As for Artest being a better post scorer, I just disagree. SAR is a far more talented post player - under or oversized.
As for Miller being a better rebounder than SAR, I still say that one season is not indicative of enough. It's too small of a sample size. What it means is that Miller outrebounded SAR last year.
As for the better lineup, I've said repeatedly that I think it could potentially be something good for us, but I'd like to see it more. I'm also basing my opinion on what I saw last year.
As for Artest being a better post scorer, I just disagree. SAR is a far more talented post player - under or oversized.
As for Miller being a better rebounder than SAR, I still say that one season is not indicative of enough. It's too small of a sample size. What it means is that Miller outrebounded SAR last year.
As for the better lineup, I've said repeatedly that I think it could potentially be something good for us, but I'd like to see it more. I'm also basing my opinion on what I saw last year.
Sure. I don't care who is right or wrong, I just want the team to win.
I don't think they have much of a chance with either SAR or Miller, but I think we're better with SAR.
But, it'll be hard to prove anything if SAR is playing off the bench.
I just have to ask:
What does Brad Miller bring that is so invaluable that he should be in there rather than SAR?
I don't think they have much of a chance with either SAR or Miller, but I think we're better with SAR.
But, it'll be hard to prove anything if SAR is playing off the bench.
I just have to ask:
What does Brad Miller bring that is so invaluable that he should be in there rather than SAR?
Me too.
I just like the way Brad complements Ron/Bibby better. Bibby plays pick and pop rather well with Brad. Artest had some nice assists to Brad last season and this preseason. He works real well with our 2 best players. And from what we've seen under Muss, he's been a decent shotblocker/man to man defender.
I just like the way Brad complements Ron/Bibby better. Bibby plays pick and pop rather well with Brad. Artest had some nice assists to Brad last season and this preseason. He works real well with our 2 best players. And from what we've seen under Muss, he's been a decent shotblocker/man to man defender.
What sources?
Sounds like mere speculation to me. The idea of trading either one of them isn't exactly new. We probably have at least 20 threads in our archives alone about that very topic.
As far as Shareef getting 17.2ppg, 7.1rpg, etc. we certainly can look for it. I have severe reservations, however, on whether or not we'll ever see it.
Sounds like mere speculation to me. The idea of trading either one of them isn't exactly new. We probably have at least 20 threads in our archives alone about that very topic.
As far as Shareef getting 17.2ppg, 7.1rpg, etc. we certainly can look for it. I have severe reservations, however, on whether or not we'll ever see it.
He was about 16 and 6 last year as a starter. 17 and 7 is not impossible. Then again that's also Wayman Tisdale/old Vin Baker numbers, so the very large question is why make an odd roster move to get it?
Tisdale 91-92: 16.6pts 6.5reb
Tisdale 92-93: 16.6pts 6.6reb
Tisdale 93-94: 16.7pts 7.1reb
Not the years I want to revisit.
Tisdale 91-92: 16.6pts 6.5reb
Tisdale 92-93: 16.6pts 6.6reb
Tisdale 93-94: 16.7pts 7.1reb
Not the years I want to revisit.
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In his defense, those are the lowest rebounding numbers he's ever had. I'd wager there is either something seriously wrong with him (perhaps those Docs in NJ were on to something) or he had an off year.
It just doesn't add up. You don't average 9-10 rebounds a year by complete accident.
Just like I don't believe Brad Miller is a 7.8 RPG guy.
Personally, I think it may have had something to do with the system or they had nagging injuries (Brad's leg, SAR's back or knees). Neither of our big men rebounded well last year. Both of them had been 9RPG guys for the years prior to that year. It just doesn't add up for either of them.
It just doesn't add up. You don't average 9-10 rebounds a year by complete accident.
Just like I don't believe Brad Miller is a 7.8 RPG guy.
Personally, I think it may have had something to do with the system or they had nagging injuries (Brad's leg, SAR's back or knees). Neither of our big men rebounded well last year. Both of them had been 9RPG guys for the years prior to that year. It just doesn't add up for either of them.
Reef didn't rebound in Portland either. He hasn't rebounded since 03, and was soft even back in those days.
Brad has gotten worse on the glass every year in Sacto. He's also getting older, and slowly turning into Terry Mills with the long jumpshot game.
Maybe one of them will rebound (both figuratively or literally), but the trends all run the other way, and its not as if either guy has made any argument that things are going to change thus far in preseason (Reef 3.5 in 18.8min, or roughly 7.0 in 37.6; Brad 4.0 in 19.8, or 8.0 in 39.6).
Also note:
Reef career rebounding:
7.8reb in 36.0min
This myth that's he's some board monster having an off year is dependant on measuring from his career years, as if he's likely to repeat them. He's been a SF, then a soft smallish PF, his entire career. Then he gets a little older, loses some athleticism, loses some fire, and he goes from a career 7.8 to maybe 6-7. Not that big a drop.
Brad has gotten worse on the glass every year in Sacto. He's also getting older, and slowly turning into Terry Mills with the long jumpshot game.
Maybe one of them will rebound (both figuratively or literally), but the trends all run the other way, and its not as if either guy has made any argument that things are going to change thus far in preseason (Reef 3.5 in 18.8min, or roughly 7.0 in 37.6; Brad 4.0 in 19.8, or 8.0 in 39.6).
Also note:
Reef career rebounding:
7.8reb in 36.0min
This myth that's he's some board monster having an off year is dependant on measuring from his career years, as if he's likely to repeat them. He's been a SF, then a soft smallish PF, his entire career. Then he gets a little older, loses some athleticism, loses some fire, and he goes from a career 7.8 to maybe 6-7. Not that big a drop.
Well as we all know Brad is in no position to get offensive rebounds with him playing out on the perimeter so i am guessing that could take at least 2 reb away from him a night. Also we were last in the league last year in FTA against so those freebe rebounds the C and PF get when ppl miss a free throw aren't are regular against us as some other centers. Making my point by looking at Ben Wallace he is among the leaders in rebounds every year and he also gets in alot of foul trouble therefore giving him oppurtunities to get those freebie rebounds at the line. so i think that would take at least 1 reb away from brad.
Now i am not defending him he should man up on the defensive glass alot more but, i think some other issues could be a reason for discrepencies.
Now i am not defending him he should man up on the defensive glass alot more but, i think some other issues could be a reason for discrepencies.
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