[Grades] Grades v. Hawks 02/22/2013

What do you think the biggest problem is for Marcus Thornton right now?

  • Tyreke Evans

    Votes: 5 13.2%
  • Isaiah Thomas

    Votes: 3 7.9%
  • Jimmer/Brooks

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Marcus Thornton

    Votes: 14 36.8%
  • Keith Smart

    Votes: 16 42.1%

  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .
So based on these stats which I don't understand, IT is a better basketball player than Tyreke and we should have IT shoot as much as possible?

Here are what those stats mean, see how you feel about him using them now. Also consider IT had made something like 46 straight (I believe) free throws at some point in the last game.

[h=2]What does Effective Field Goal Percentage - eFG% Mean?[/h]A metric used in NBA basketball that is similar to Field Goal Percentage, but adds an additional parameter. This parameter adjusts for the fact that 3-point field goals are worth 50 percent more than 2-point field goals.

[h=2]What does True Shooting Percentage - TS% Mean?[/h]A statistic in basketball used to gauge shooting efficiency that takes into consideration points scored from three pointers, field goals and free-throws to get a measure of points scored each shooting attempt.
It is calculated as follows:
Points / (2 * (FG Attempts + 0.44 * FT Attempts))
 
[h=2]What does True Shooting Percentage - TS% Mean?[/h]A statistic in basketball used to gauge shooting efficiency that takes into consideration points scored from three pointers, field goals and free-throws to get a measure of points scored each shooting attempt.
It is calculated as follows:
Points / (2 * (FG Attempts + 0.44 * FT Attempts))
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I actually think this description doesn't do a very good service to TS% for those who aren't mathematically inclined.

TS% estimates the number of points scored per shot attempt, divided by two. Why it's divided by 2, I don't know, because it doesn't have to be. That means that a TS% of 0.600 means that a player scored 1.2 points for every one time they shot the ball (which is very good).

The 0.44 factor in the FT part of the calculation comes from the fact that if you take your stats from the box scores (which is how most are taken) you can't tell the difference between 2 FTs from a shooting foul and 1 FT from an and-1. TS% considers drawing a shooting foul one "shot" and a three-point play to be one "shot", which is sensible. This is why I said "estimated", because if you look only at the box score you can't always tell exactly how many shots a player took because of the ambiguity in the free throws. But the 0.44 factor corrects for that as best as possible without actually watching the game to figure out the exact number of shot attempts.

Anyway, in my opinion TS% is, as a measure of scoring efficiency (it of course measures nothing else), the best measure out there.
 
There seems to be some opinion on this fourm, that if one player takes over a certain amount of shots, he is then taking away from another player, and thereby hurting the team. Now I understand that people have their favorite players, and therefore want that, or those players to put up good numbers.

Well Baja, in All-Star games guards are known to hog the ball and chuck up shots while bigs are just there to dunk the ball on lobs. So to argue as if there are an unlimited number of shots to go round doesn't make sense if you ask me. The next issue then is whether (since we all know we're talking about IT taking shots as opposed to Cousins or Evans) IT taking more shots hurts the team. Now I wouldn't simplify it to only IT taking more shots, but him not even looking for others, or completely looking off Evans, who is supposed to be one of our main guys. I don't find it a coincidence that Evans has started out nearly every recent game strong when he's getting the ball, and then goes cold for the rest of the game after Smart benches him and being ignored offensively for long stretches. I still agree that Thomas had a good game and shot the ball well, but he had stretches in the 3rd quarter where he only looked for his shot, and due to poor offensive balance and poor shot selection we ended up giving the Hawks fast breaks the other way. Evans literally did not touch the ball for a good 3-4 minute span. Is that really how you want to see our offense function? Whatever happened to "everybody should touch the ball on a possession"? There is more to team basketball than just hitting shots. Guys get frustrated when they don't get to touch the ball. They start becoming lazy on D, start jogging down the floor instead of sprinting down to stop fast breaks. They start forcing the issue when the ball finally finds its way into their hands. They attack the rim and get called for charges in fast break situations instead of dumping the ball off to their team mates.
Isn't this the whole point of having a playmaker/ facilitator? Isn't this the very thing people criticized Tyreke for? He was averaging 20-5-5 but you get reports of Nocioni and Omri not being happy that they're not getting the ball enough, and our record wasn't very good. How is that any different from what Thomas is doing now?

Also, it really DOES matter who gets the shots. How come Kobe got to take so many shots while Derek Fisher didn't? Even if Kobe had a bad shooting night and Fisher was having a good one, did the Lakers start iso-ing Fisher and ignore Bryant? Naturally Tyreke is not even close to being Kobe, but you get the idea. I believe that there needs to be some sort of shot hierarchy on any good team. Now if you want to argue that IT should be getting more shots than Tyreke that's a different story altogether, but if we say that Tyreke should be more of a focal point of our offense than Thomas then he should not be stuck in the corner while Thomas shoots 3 pointers with 16 seconds on the shotclock, period.


There is of course no way to determine who is right. All I know is that we're not a very good team at the moment, and that I, like you, don't believe that a 5'9 PG is going to lead us to the promise land by leading the team in scoring. The blame for the poor play also doesn't fall on any one player's shoulders. Evans needs to be more aggressive, and he needs to play smarter. Same goes for Cousins. I think that's pretty clear to all of us. But as far as I can tell, you can't be offensively aggressive unless you are getting the ball. If Evans has the ball but misses easy layups and doesn't attack that's on him. Maybe even if he doesn't touch the ball on 4 straight possessions he needs to be more aggressive in calling for the ball. But if he (or DMC or MT when he's in) don't touch the ball for 3-4 minutes, I'm looking at my PG and the coach.

Btw, this is a general post referring to our games in general over the last two months, not the Hawks game specifically.
 
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IT has taken 1 more shot than Tyreke this month people. 1. I'll repeat. One.

Stop acting like he's throwing up 20 shots a game and Cousins and Evans are left fighting over his scraps. He's taking equal amounts of looks as they are and putting it in the basket at an elite rate for a guard. Which is a good thing the last time I checked

Cousins and Evans on the other hand are different because they have the potential to be elite in other aspects of the game. Cousins is a top 10 rebounder already. Both are above-average passers for their positions. Evans can be a defensive force when he wants to do be. If Evans and Cousins play lazy because IT is scoring at an excellent rate right now, then they shouldn't be the guys we're supposedly building around. LeBron, Kobe, and every other major star in the league achieved their status by being elite at other aspects of the game other than scoring . That doesn't mean a 1-trick pony like IT isn't a valuable asset
 
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IT has taken 1 more shot than Tyreke this month people. 1. I'll repeat. One.

Stop acting like he's throwing up 20 shots a game and Cousins and Evans are left fighting over his scraps. He's taking equal amounts of looks as they are and putting it in the basket at an elite rate for a guard. Which, the last time I checked is a good thing

Cousins and Evans on the other hand are different because they have the potential to be elite in other aspects of the game. Cousins is a top 10 rebounder already. Both are above-average passers for their positions. Evans can be a defensive force when he wants to do be. If Evans and Cousins play lazy because IT is scoring at an excellent rate right now, then they shouldn't be the guys we're supposedly building around. LeBron, Kobe, and every other major star in the league achieved their status by being elite at other aspects of the game other than scoring . That doesn't mean a 1-trick pony like IT isn't a valuable asset

Again, it's not about the shots themselves, it's about taking guys out of rhythm by not passing them the ball. He could be passing the ball to John Salmons instead of Tyreke or DMC, Garcia instead of MT. And then that combined with the shots. I don't see why you just can't understand that. You don't have to agree with me, but at least get what I'm talking about.

Btw, I don't think IT is a one-trick pony. I think he has very good court vision and good passing skills on top of his quickness and ability to score. I would simply like to see more of the passing and less of the scoring because I think it would benefit the TEAM.
 
I am not sure how taking shots away from IT, who is more efficient and giving shots to Tyreke and Cousins who are less effective is going to help the team win. Maybe IT passing the ball around will improve ball movement enough to get those other guys to be more effective but I haven't really seen any evidence of that in times when IT wasn't on the floor or wasn't in the starting line up. The problems with this team are almost all defense related.
 
I am not sure how taking shots away from IT, who is more efficient and giving shots to Tyreke and Cousins who are less effective is going to help the team win. Maybe IT passing the ball around will improve ball movement enough to get those other guys to be more effective but I haven't really seen any evidence of that in times when IT wasn't on the floor or wasn't in the starting line up. The problems with this team are almost all defense related.

Bingo. Our offense has been plenty capable this month. But, unless your OKC, you're not going to win games when you allow 110 PPG and 50% shooting every game
 
Here's the issue:
If you're game planning against the Kings, you want to make sure that Cousins and Evans don't hurt you, because they cause defensive issues greater than just beating their man off the dribble. The whole team has to pay attention. If IT is scoring, he's not causing the team to break down defensively. In fact, if he's off, he'll make it even easier for the defense to transition into offense.
If I'm the opposing coach, I want IT scoring. It makes my job that much easier. We're going to score 110? Great. We're giving up 120? Shameful. It's no coincidence.
Working Cousins and Evans inside affects defensive strategy and rotations much more than letting IT go off all the time. It's a damn shame that Smart can't see that. And on a macro level, it IS a bad thing that IT has had as many shots.as he's had.
 
Here's the issue:
If you're game planning against the Kings, you want to make sure that Cousins and Evans don't hurt you, because they cause defensive issues greater than just beating their man off the dribble. The whole team has to pay attention. If IT is scoring, he's not causing the team to break down defensively. In fact, if he's off, he'll make it even easier for the defense to transition into offense.
If I'm the opposing coach, I want IT scoring. It makes my job that much easier. We're going to score 110? Great. We're giving up 120? Shameful. It's no coincidence.
Working Cousins and Evans inside affects defensive strategy and rotations much more than letting IT go off all the time. It's a damn shame that Smart can't see that. And on a macro level, it IS a bad thing that IT has had as many shots.as he's had.
This whole post just simply isn't true.
 
Please let me know how. Also, be sure to add how letting a weaker player dominate at the expense of a stronger player is a good thing.

IT is not the weaker player, at least not offensively. If Tyreke, DMC,JT and IT took a hundred shoots each the results would be as follows:


IT 60 points scored
DMC 58 points
JT 56 points
Reke 54 points

These are the stats, They have no bias. IT is a better offensive player than the other players. He should take the most shots.
 
IT is not the weaker player, at least not offensively. If Tyreke, DMC,JT and IT took a hundred shoots each the results would be as follows:


IT 60 points scored
DMC 58 points
JT 56 points
Reke 54 points

These are the stats, They have no bias. IT is a better offensive player than the other players. He should take the most shots.

Way to misuse stats. So anyone with a higher efg% should take the most shots for their team? If you really believe our offense should revolve around IT I'm not sure why anybody is going to have this debate with you.
 
Way to misuse stats. So anyone with a higher efg% should take the most shots for their team? If you really believe our offense should revolve around IT I'm not sure why anybody is going to have this debate with you.

Go ahead and explain to me how I misused the stats. I didn't pick some random player and with very few minutes and attempts and extrapolate. I used the 4 highest scoring players on the team. These are real results, it isn't what would happen it is what is happening. The only argument that could be made against IT offensively is that those other players would be more efficient with a different point guard but there just isn't any evidence to support that. It wasn't in the starting line up and the team wasn't any better offensively.

Defense is an entirely different issue. IT is a pretty terrible defender.

The thing is, I am not an IT fan boy. I want Jimmer to play instead of IT because I am a Jimmer fan. T
 
Go ahead and explain to me how I misused the stats. I didn't pick some random player and with very few minutes and attempts and extrapolate. I used the 4 highest scoring players on the team. These are real results, it isn't what would happen it is what is happening. The only argument that could be made against IT offensively is that those other players would be more efficient with a different point guard but there just isn't any evidence to support that. It wasn't in the starting line up and the team wasn't any better offensively.

Defense is an entirely different issue. IT is a pretty terrible defender.

The thing is, I am not an IT fan boy. I want Jimmer to play instead of IT because I am a Jimmer fan. T

You used one advanced shooting % metric to state that IT is a better offensive player than anyone else on the team and should lead the team in shots. If you don't understand how using one stat to make those kind of conclusions is absurd, I don't know what to say.

Also, the team would be better with a different type of pg. we weren't when it wasn't starting because we don't really have a better pg to play.
 
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IT is not the weaker player, at least not offensively. If Tyreke, DMC,JT and IT took a hundred shoots each the results would be as follows:


IT 60 points scored
DMC 58 points
JT 56 points
Reke 54 points

These are the stats, They have no bias. IT is a better offensive player than the other players. He should take the most shots.

Dwyane Wade: TS% .570 eFG% .520.

Please, PLEASE tell me right now that IT is a better offensive player than Dwyane Wade and should take more shots than him. Please, just write it out here. Just say it. Then you can go away quietly.

"Advanced" stat people are hilarious.
 
Dwyane Wade: TS% .570 eFG% .520.

Please, PLEASE tell me right now that IT is a better offensive player than Dwyane Wade and should take more shots than him. Please, just write it out here. Just say it. Then you can go away quietly.

"Advanced" stat people are hilarious.

Yeah they are and you're the biggest one here.
 
Dwyane Wade: TS% .570 eFG% .520.

Please, PLEASE tell me right now that IT is a better offensive player than Dwyane Wade and should take more shots than him. Please, just write it out here. Just say it. Then you can go away quietly.

"Advanced" stat people are hilarious.
IT is more efficient than Dwayne Wade.

Now it is your turn to tell my why he isn't.

I am not saying that I would rather have IT than Dwayne Wade. Wade is a much better player, he is a better rebounded, better passer and a way better defender. If you are going to talk strictly who scores the ball best per possession then IT is slightly better.
 
IT is more efficient than Dwayne Wade.

Now it is your turn to tell my why he isn't.

I am not saying that I would rather have IT than Dwayne Wade. Wade is a much better player, he is a better rebounded, better passer and a way better defender. If you are going to talk strictly who scores the ball best per possession then IT is slightly better.

See, here is the problem with forums. They record the less than well thought out stuff that sometimes spills out of our brains. Your argument just a few posts above claims that IT is a BETTER offensive player than anyone else on the kings due to his shooting percentages, not more efficient. Do you still think IT is a better offensive player than anyone that shoots a lower efg, including Dwade or are we backing off to a much less ridiculous and mostly irrelevant points per possession debate?
 
Dwyane Wade: TS% .570 eFG% .520.

Please, PLEASE tell me right now that IT is a better offensive player than Dwyane Wade and should take more shots than him. Please, just write it out here. Just say it. Then you can go away quietly.

"Advanced" stat people are hilarious.

IT is more efficient than Tyreke. You can whine, scream, kick all you want but there's nothing to change that fact. The numbers back it up. Since IT and Reke are taking equal shots right now as well, yes, that makes IT the most efficient/effective scorer on the team.

Whether he should be taking equal shots with Reke/Boogie or if Reke is beingused incorrectly is an entirely different argument. However, the beauty of numbers is you can't change them to fit anopinion. They remain unbiased, unlike our opinions.
 
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