[Grades] Grades v. Grizzlies 11/17/2013

What do you think about Malone benching Cousins tonight?

  • Uhoh

    Votes: 14 23.3%
  • Dangeorus

    Votes: 11 18.3%
  • Well deserved message

    Votes: 25 41.7%
  • Trying to win

    Votes: 10 16.7%

  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
Its frustrating seeing the kings struggle so badly while other teams are seemingly able to do more with less. The Suns, 7akers and Sixers have all found a way to be competitive and their rosters are HORRIBLE.

I think part of it is that our guys aren't playing free. We're trying to force a bunch of guys who are terrible defensive players to play good defense, and that takes them out of their comfort zone. That's not to say that defense is a bad thing. It's a great thing, and something that will allow us to be a sustainable winning team. But they haven't had much time to really get used to it.

The other thing is that we're trying to change the culture of the team without changing the players. It's the same for any organization - culture change is going to happen a lot faster by simply replacing or adding members that fit the culture compared to changing it from the ground up. It makes little sense to me that an organization and coach preaching defense and a hate-to-lose mentality continues to play guys like Marcus Thornton and John Salmons, who in his many seasons with us has only been a loser, has never helped us win very much, particularly in his second stint.

I understand that the FO doesn't exactly have a queue of GMs lining up to offer valuable pieces for Thornton and Salmons and the like. That being said it's up to them to assess whether keeping these guys around is ever going to bring us more value than whatever we can get for them now. It's a tough call to make, but sometimes a bunch of scrubs eager to win can help your team more than "proven" players, and they might just accelerate that culture you're trying to establish as well. Take N'Diaye for example - some would argue that in his limited minutes he's helped us a lot more than Chuck Hayes has.
 
Its frustrating seeing the kings struggle so badly while other teams are seemingly able to do more with less. The Suns, 7akers and Sixers have all found a way to be competitive and their rosters are HORRIBLE.

Suns - Excellent defensive perimeter players, solid rebounding from all five positions. Shooting spread throughout the roster. Also a lot of hunger from guys playing for contracts. An unexpected surge of talent from Eric Bledsoe.

Sixers - Excellent defensive perimeter players. Solid rebounding from 4 of 5 positions. An unexpected surge of talent from the point guard position on both ends. Good shooting spread throughout the roster.

Lakers - Decent defensive perimeter players (aside from the injured Nash.) Solid rebounding from the big men. An unexpected surge of talent from a bunch of 2010 draft busts.

Suns and sixers will likely come back down to earth and become part of the Wiggins sweepstakes. The Lakers will plod along, but probably miss the playoffs.

The Kings are struggling to adapt to a new defensive mindset. They are hurt by several factors, not the least of which is the utter lack of perimeter defensive stoppers and pitiful rebounding from the non-Outlaw SF and every one of the power forwards.
 
Its frustrating seeing the kings struggle so badly while other teams are seemingly able to do more with less. The Suns, 7akers and Sixers have all found a way to be competitive and their rosters are HORRIBLE.

We decided the best way to "establish a winning culture" in the long term would be to lose. A lot. Especially at home. Hard to see how they plan on keeping the fans interested this season. Now that's it's crystal clear what is going on. If the arena comes to a vote, the team on the court this season won't be winning any votes, that's for sure.

If losing means playing washed up vets huge mins (salmons led the team last game) then man, that's going to be really hard for me to stick with. I'd rather lose young than lose with guys that won't be around. But maybe that's the plan.
 
This team is not very talented. It's probably dangerous to bench your most talented player when the rest of the team is terrible. I would rather lose with the young guys than play people (and still lose) that will not be on the team next year. Makes no sense, and it looks like Malone is picking up right where Smart left off.
 
this conversation is rather overcooked, in my opinion. i've asked the following question many times now, and i'll ask it again: what were kings fans legitimately expecting from this team? there is quite simply no scenario under which this roster was ever going to succeed as constructed. there really isn't. the kings are almost entirely bereft of defensively-oriented personnel, they're a very poor rebounding team, they've got no one who can consistently attack the rim, and their jump shooters are a buncha mediocre pretenders, for the most part. many of us were saying so long before the season had begun; it wasn't going to be pretty...

and if you look at the surprise upstarts of this season, teams like the sixers or the suns or the lakers, you'll see some combination of these important skills that the kings lack. so... what exactly do the kings excel at? demarcus cousins excels at being the team's best player, but as a team? forget it, THEY ARE BAD. they just are. get used to it, people. it's going to be a long season, and hopefully there will be some measure of salvation for the kings in the upcoming draft, stacked as it's supposed to be...

personally, i don't have a problem with coach benching the entire starting unit as he did, but i do have a problem with coach benching the future for an entire half. that future is demarcus cousins and ben mclemore, and possibly greivis vasquez and isaiah thomas. that future may also include one or two others, a mbah a moute here or a carl landry there, but those others are of much less significance to the big picture than cousins and mclemore. the new regime absolutely needs those two guys to find sustained success, the former because they signed him to a hefty max extension, naming him their franchise cornerstone, and the latter because he was their draft pick, and represented the eventual replacement for the team's second best player, who they saw fit to cut loose in the offseason...

if cousins fails, the entire rebuild falls apart. if mclemore fails, there's certainly an opportunity to recover (particularly if the kings snag a true impact player in the '14 draft), but it will have been just another wasted pick for a team that desperately needs to invest in its young talent upon acquisition. that said, i do not expect the new regime to put mclemore in a position to fail, not in the long term, anyway. but malone can't get into the habit of tossing his young talents to the bench when they stink it up, because it will be a case of lather, rinse, repeat every other game if he intends to dole out "lessons" of this nature...

you send your message, then you get cousins back into the game. the big man carries a tremendous load, and the kings need him to remain bought-in. they need him out on the court, and they need to get mclemore as much burn as possible, giving the fans just a glimmer of hope that the future will someday brighten up considerably. and if malone doesn't recognize the necessity of further developing his own an eye towards the future of this team, then ranadive and d'allesandro need to remind him of the big picture...
 
This team is not very talented. It's probably dangerous to bench your most talented player when the rest of the team is terrible. I would rather lose with the young guys than play people (and still lose) that will not be on the team next year. Makes no sense, and it looks like Malone is picking up right where Smart left off.
Rather lose with the young guys? Well, that move was made with McLemore who right now makes us a 4 1/2 man lineup. Makes one want to lose with veterans.
 
this conversation is rather overcooked, in my opinion. i've asked the following question many times now, and i'll ask it again: what were kings fans legitimately expecting from this team? there is quite simply no scenario under which this roster was ever going to succeed as constructed. there really isn't. the kings are almost entirely bereft of defensively-oriented personnel, they're a very poor rebounding team, they've got no one who can consistently attack the rim, and their jump shooters are a buncha mediocre pretenders, for the most part. many of us were saying so long before the season had begun; it wasn't going to be pretty...

and if you look at the surprise upstarts of this season, teams like the sixers or the suns or the lakers, you'll see some combination of these important skills that the kings lack. so... what exactly do the kings excel at? demarcus cousins excels at being the team's best player, but as a team? forget it, THEY ARE BAD. they just are. get used to it, people. it's going to be a long season, and hopefully there will be some measure of salvation for the kings in the upcoming draft, stacked as it's supposed to be...

personally, i don't have a problem with coach benching the entire starting unit as he did, but i do have a problem with coach benching the future for an entire half. that future is demarcus cousins and ben mclemore, and possibly greivis vasquez and isaiah thomas. that future may also include one or two others, a mbah a moute here or a carl landry there, but those others are of much less significance to the big picture than cousins and mclemore. the new regime absolutely needs those two guys to find sustained success, the former because they signed him to a hefty max extension, naming him their franchise cornerstone, and the latter because he was their draft pick, and represented the eventual replacement for the team's second best player, who they saw fit to cut loose in the offseason...

if cousins fails, the entire rebuild falls apart. if mclemore fails, there's certainly an opportunity to recover (particularly if the kings snag a true impact player in the '14 draft), but it will have been just another wasted pick for a team that desperately needs to invest in its young talent upon acquisition. that said, i do not expect the new regime to put mclemore in a position to fail, not in the long term, anyway. but malone can't get into the habit of tossing his young talents to the bench when they stink it up, because it will be a case of lather, rinse, repeat every other game if he intends to dole out "lessons" of this nature...

you send your message, then you get cousins back into the game. the big man carries a tremendous load, and the kings need him to remain bought-in. they need him out on the court, and they need to get mclemore as much burn as possible, giving the fans just a glimmer of hope that the future will someday brighten up considerably. and if malone doesn't recognize the necessity of further developing his own an eye towards the future of this team, then ranadive and d'allesandro need to remind him of the big picture...
I think you answered your own question about what we expected.

Now, I can maybe buy the argument that benching the whole starting crew is part of growing as a team. I guess. But I want to see the young guys. It's just hard to see how anyone is served by having salmons lead the team in minutes. I think the losing with mclemore taking his lumps out there will happen. With full misguided effort at times, but I'll take that. I guarantee you okc wasn't benching harden, durant and Westbrook too often during their growing years. Or maybe I'm way off.

If they completely don't respond, what has been gained? Mclemore is confused as it is.

These lesson games will get old, both to watch, and for the players on the short leashes. It's no way to play. Cuz was on pace for a 20/10 game. Maybe his d was bad. Maybe he took a bad shot. So what? The guys on the court werent doing the same?
 
I think you answered your own question about what we expected.

Now, I can maybe buy the argument that benching the whole starting crew is part of growing as a team. I guess. But I want to see the young guys. It's just hard to see how anyone is served by having salmons lead the team in minutes. I think the losing with mclemore taking his lumps out there will happen. With full misguided effort at times, but I'll take that. I guarantee you okc wasn't benching harden, durant and Westbrook too often during their growing years. Or maybe I'm way off.

If they completely don't respond, what has been gained? Mclemore is confused as it is.

These lesson games will get old, both to watch, and for the players on the short leashes. It's no way to play. Cuz was on pace for a 20/10 game. Maybe his d was bad. Maybe he took a bad shot. So what? The guys on the court werent doing the same?
The things you mention are real concerns and, as can be imagined, emensely obvious to Malone and staff, Pete and Ranadive. I don't think we have to come up with the answers, they will. It is interesting to try and anticipate them.
 
this conversation is rather overcooked, in my opinion. i've asked the following question many times now, and i'll ask it again: what were kings fans legitimately expecting from this team?
Fine, I'll tell you: I expected us to go 34-48, and finish 12th in the west, ahead of Utah, Phoenix and Portland (Yes, that's right, I said Portland! And I'll be the first to admit that I was loud wrong on Portland but, you know what? I'm going to double down on that, anyway: I refuse to believe in the Trailblazers, and I remain utterly convinced that their 9-2 record is a mirage).

But, more importantly, when I looked at our schedule before the start of the season, and saw how home-heavy it was to start out with, I expected us to be no worse than 4-5 after the first nine games. So, needless to say, I am decidedly less than pleased with 2-7. As a matter of fact, based on the schedule, I fully expected us to be at or around .500, going into the 12/23 game against New Orleans, and didn't really expect the bottom to go out until the road trip in the middle of January. When I saw the schedule, I figured that we would be within a couple games of .500 until around MLK day, and that it would go straight to hell shortly after that.
 
#wewantgeorgeandgavinback #firevivek
Its frustrating seeing the kings struggle so badly while other teams are seemingly able to do more with less. The Suns, 7akers and Sixers have all found a way to be competitive and their rosters are HORRIBLE.

Let's be perfectly honest here, those teams doing more with less are probably shooting themselves in the foot long term. The Suns are the feel-good story of the NBA but a big three of Eric Bledsoe, Markieff Morris, and whichever Plumlee they have on their roster is only going to take them so far. I'm sure their fans are pleasantly surprised and happy about their team's success but considering that all signs pointed to their front office doing everything it possibly could to get the number one pick in this year's draft, this early season run of wins might set them back years in their rebuilding effort.
 
Let's be perfectly honest here, those teams doing more with less are probably shooting themselves in the foot long term. The Suns are the feel-good story of the NBA but a big three of Eric Bledsoe, Markieff Morris, and whichever Plumlee they have on their roster is only going to take them so far. I'm sure their fans are pleasantly surprised and happy about their team's success but considering that all signs pointed to their front office doing everything it possibly could to get the number one pick in this year's draft, this early season run of wins might set them back years in their rebuilding effort.
There's no chance that that's true. In the first place, water seeks its own level, and Phoenix will finish way out of the playoff chase. In the second place, these wins will pay off for Phoenix going forward, when their young players have developed good winning habits and team chemistry.
 
Fine, I'll tell you: I expected us to go 34-48, and finish 12th in the west, ahead of Utah, Phoenix and Portland (Yes, that's right, I said Portland! And I'll be the first to admit that I was loud wrong on Portland but, you know what? I'm going to double down on that, anyway: I refuse to believe in the Trailblazers, and I remain utterly convinced that their 9-2 record is a mirage).

But, more importantly, when I looked at our schedule before the start of the season, and saw how home-heavy it was to start out with, I expected us to be no worse than 4-5 after the first nine games. So, needless to say, I am decidedly less than pleased with 2-7. As a matter of fact, based on the schedule, I fully expected us to be at or around .500, going into the 12/23 game against New Orleans, and didn't really expect the bottom to go out until the road trip in the middle of January. When I saw the schedule, I figured that we would be within a couple games of .500 until around MLK day, and that it would go straight to hell shortly after that.

i don't think a 34-48 record is overly optimistic for this roster, though it certainly would represent the absolute peak of its potential, in my opinion. personally, i've been much more glass-half-empty in my projections. i figured we were looking at 25-30 wins before the season began. there are several posters around these parts who have found my praise for tyreke evans to be superfluous over the past few seasons, but i have maintained that his absence would create the kind of hole on both sides of the court that the kings would not be immediately prepared to fill in any capacity, short of successfully managing to sign andre iguodala (drafting michael carter-williams may also have softened the blow considerably). this team's wing defense is beyond terrible, and those same guards who fail to impress on defense are also unable to get to the rim with any regularity on offense. you have to figure that evans' physical gifts would have been harnessed positively on the defensive end under coach malone, and you have to figure that his monstrous dribble-drive would have been a boon to a team in desperate need of offensive lift outside of DMC and IT. but evans is gone now, and it's time to evaluate what's left...

talent-wise, i truly believe that this roster is bottom-3 in the entire league. what's more, nothing fits quite right. DMC is giving more effort, defensively, but he's never going to be a stud on that end. and rather than chasing down a defensively-inclined frontcourt piece, the new front office went out and acquired the exact opposite in carl landry, throwing the cherry-on-top of a four-year contract at him. so, in lieu of any semblance of defensive personnel in the frontcourt, you would think something must be done to improve the kings' p***-poor wing defense, right? well... not really. the new front office rather shrewdly acquired an injured luc richard mbah a moute at the expense of a second-rounder, but the jury's out on whether or not mbah a moute figures to be anything other than a rotation player for this team. he might look like an effective role player for these kings in a couple of seasons, but in the here and now, there's little impact...

elsewhere, we have a rookie owner with vision for miles, but without the experience. we have a rookie GM with analytics up the a**, but without the experience. we have a rookie head coach with the kind of defensive credentials we've been begging for, but without the experience. we have a starting PG with pass-first instincts, but whose defense is as horrifyingly bad as it gets for a team that's been pretty fuggin' atrocious on the defensive end across the last seven years. we have a rookie SG who can shoot lights out from three, but dribbles the ball about as effectively as a drunk walks the line. we have... well, we don't really have much of anything to speak of at SF, do we? it's a black hole, that position. we have a platoon of unworthies at PF, and no true back-up C. it's not pretty, and all of the effort and culture-shock and arco thunder and "play the right way" sloganeering won't change it. 25-30 wins still sounds about right to me, and that might turn out to be optimistic, considering that the soft opening schedule has given way to early losses...

that said, i really think it's for the best. our owner will discover what it takes to win in the nba. our head coach will earn the trust of his players over time. our franchise cornerstone will grow into that label. our sixth man will mighty-mouse his way into the hearts of kings fans everywhere. and our rookie SG will hopefully fight his way through those first-year jitters. in the meantime, the losses will pile up as we wait for nba draft '14, when we'll hope for the best and pray that this team's honest-to-goodness "turn the corner" moment is coming...
 
Last edited:
Fine, I'll tell you: I expected us to go 34-48, and finish 12th in the west, ahead of Utah, Phoenix and Portland (Yes, that's right, I said Portland! And I'll be the first to admit that I was loud wrong on Portland but, you know what? I'm going to double down on that, anyway: I refuse to believe in the Trailblazers, and I remain utterly convinced that their 9-2 record is a mirage).

But, more importantly, when I looked at our schedule before the start of the season, and saw how home-heavy it was to start out with, I expected us to be no worse than 4-5 after the first nine games. So, needless to say, I am decidedly less than pleased with 2-7. As a matter of fact, based on the schedule, I fully expected us to be at or around .500, going into the 12/23 game against New Orleans, and didn't really expect the bottom to go out until the road trip in the middle of January. When I saw the schedule, I figured that we would be within a couple games of .500 until around MLK day, and that it would go straight to hell shortly after that.

while we've disagreed on the Blazers in the past, I do agree with this. their schedule has been soft, they still don't defend all that well and at some point they won't shoot threes at a 42% clip anymore. they've got CHI, GSW, OKC and IND coming up soon and will nosedive accordingly. I'll maintain that they're likely to challenge for a low playoff seed, but no way in hell are they going to be in the running for home court advantage.
 
Back
Top