Grades v. Grizzlies 11/05

Who Had The Best Bounceback Game?

  • Kevin Martin

    Votes: 26 32.5%
  • Mikki Moore

    Votes: 11 13.8%
  • John Salmons

    Votes: 12 15.0%
  • Kings Defense

    Votes: 31 38.8%

  • Total voters
    80
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
That's right, we bad.

Salmons ( A ) -- by far the best game of the season for John, preseaon or regular. In the early going was not only making shots, but creating for others and then all game long just harrassed the hell out of Rudy Gay and clearly won the battle against one of the better young wing players in the league. Threw in 9 rebounds just for the heck of it. Kevin scored the most points, but John was the best all around player for us tonight. Pretty much did it all, and by stifling Gay took the Grizzlies out of most of what they wanted to do.

Mikki ( B+ ) -- Hey hey! An entirely respectable performance from the worst starting PF in the league so far this season. There was nobody trembling in fear at Mikki's early performance, but he clearly got the memo about his pathetic early season rebounding and had as many rebounds by the end of the first quarter (4) as he had total in our first 4 games (4). Nor did he let up, and finished with 11 rebs on the night, leading the team, leading the game, and proving he is every bit as good as Amare Stoudemire who also had 11 last night (*along with 49pts 6ast 5stl and 2blks). Played his roile well (the role we would want him to play), and for the first time this season outplayed our young bigs. Now we get to see whaty happens when Brad returns.

Hawes ( C+ ) -- Hey everybody! Come on over and meet Raef LaHawes! Faced with another strong physical center, what do you think Rae...er...Spencer's response was? If you guessed fleeing to the perimeter you win a gold star. For a player who scowls so much he sure seems willing to flee his post at the first sign of resistance. At least this time he hit his threes (yes, plural), and overall despite the Brian Cook statline (13pts (2-2 3pt) 3rebs), it wasn't all soft. In fact in the early going the first quarter was one of those "almost" quarters for Spencer, where he almost had a big one, but kept on screwing it up by being off by just a little. Missing shots by a little. Missing passes by a little. Almost getting things picked off. And compeltely predictable at this point -- faced with a powerful opponent, he runs out to the three point line. Was aggressive about fouling people in the open court rather than letting them get layups, but it added up and came back to haunt him late, leading to him fouling out with 6:00 to go and getting to watch us try to blow it from a nice seat over on the bench. Game felt better than the softness would indicate -- was around the ball a lot, seemed to be causing problems even without any numbers, and the repeated fouling, while eventua,ly biting him and us in the butt, nonetheless served as some sort of no layup rule on a night when the defense was much tougher than its been. I basically look at this grade this way -- if had missed those two threes then he shoots 3-9, most of them jumpers, for 7pts and 3rebs and has clearly wimped out and run outside and I am mad at him and thinking Ds. He hits them though and...C+.

Martin ( A- ) -- strong scoring night right from the start, and was very efficient in the first half, at least shooting wise (had some turnovers again). Was in a bit of a scoring battle with OJ Mayo across from him, but Mayo was scorng more from persistence and determination to shoot while Kevin was making it look easy. Solved the duel by getting Mayo into foul trouble in the third. Giving a guy with 33pts an A- is a bit harsh, and I could be talked into an A here. But my reasoning was thus: a) John Salmons was a little beter overall; b) Kevin's opponent nearly cancelled him out with his own 28, and it was Kevin's man too -- actually think he defense was less terrible than usual tonight and it was more Mayo just chucking up bombs, but still only +5; and finally Kevin was a bti shaky down the stretch, missing several shots as damn near gave the game away. Did get to pad the stats a bit in the last 30 seconds when the Grizz had to intentionally foul, but otherwise Kevin was better through three than he was down the stretch. So...A-. I will say though that this was a better game, and better A-, than the one in Philly. In Philly Kevin's points felt almost irrelevant. This time out he and John were clearly the engines that beat the Grizz, so it was an impact performance, whatever the litte warts.

Beno ( D ) Ok, now I know he's drunk. Got off to the absolutely disastrous start. Airballing shots, throwing bizarrely bad passes off peoples feet, repeatedly leaping in the air for kickouts to various Memphis Grizzlies, getting beat on defense. Jeesh. Hangover began to wear off in the third, when he made sevral good passes and finally hit a couple of shots. Saved a final sloppy turnover however for the final two minutes as we attempted to throw the game. Nice one too. Going to hold this grade at a D because for a while there he was at least distributing pretty well on an unusually unselfish night for us. But...jeesh. Beno! WAKE UP!

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Thomspon ( B- ) -- I always used to love the Roadrunner cartoons back when I was young. And watching Jason in the first half tonight I could not help but think that somebody needed to really run out there and jump in front of him with one of those hand held stop signs. The twittering lack of confidence in the preseason is certainly gone, but it was replaced in the early going here by an almost amusingly rabid rushing confidence -- he was running around at 1000 mph accomplishing little, rushing headlong attacking without any idea of the situation, throwing stuff up, rampantly aggressive, but setting nothing up and not being efficent. Was forcing everything, and I think was 2-7 by the end of the half while having expended more energy in 10 minutes than Brad Miller will expend all season. But after what I can only imiagine was a halftime spent with him bouncing off the locker room walls while the multiple Jolt Colas washed out of his system, he was more settled, and better after half. This was still probably the weakest of his early season performances, but after he got past his hyperness, he was helping once again with a more settled energy, and even had a hand in our staving off defeat, getting the call from Reggie on a key late possession and driving inside, drawing a double (again the value of people who play inside) and kicking the ball out nicely top the open shooter.

Brown ( A- ) -- Another King with his best game of the young season. Came in firing (of course), and it appears in only 4 games BJax's age-related struggles have seen Brown pass him up in the rotation just that quick. Much better than he has been since that one breakout preseaosn game. In control for the most part. Offensively potent, but this time racked up a respectable 5 assists as well and only had one of his playground dribble down and shoot the ball wihtout anybody else touching it moments. Got pummeled back the other way by one of my favorite little bowling balls in the league, Kyle Lowry, but given that this kid is a borderline NBAer playing his first significant minutes and came up with 10pts 5ast on 100% shooting, it still has to be an A of some sort. That we get three As in a squeaker win over the Memphis Grizzlies, at home, in a game we tried to blow late, says a lot about the state of the franchise now.

Williams ( INC ) -- after playing well on the roadtrip pretty much got bumped from the rotation by the emergence of a competent Mikki. did pretty well in his short first half stint -- hit a little jumper, grabbed some boards, got a block. But those four minutes were all he got.

Douby ( INC ) -- wasted first half minutes, just chucking up some bricked threes, and Reggie went with BJax instad after half.

BJax ( INC ) -- finally got in in the late third, and it was in at OG basically, replacing Kevin (he and Brown came in to play together). So pretty much taking the Douby munutes from the first half. Looked fine but did little of note. Best part was the standing ovation he got from the crowd when he finally got in. That was nice.

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Theus ( B ) -- This will be the game we have a chance to win this year -- at home, with our swingmen going good, and on a night when the guys decide to give some defensive effort. Oh, and of course against a crappy opponent. But hey, we got it. And crappy opponent or not, we looked a lot better doing it, late collapse aside. The defense was not Boston Celtic level, but it was night and day from what we saw on the road, and just as Theus gets to have his feet to the fire when we come out unprepared to put in any effort on that end, here he gets some kudos for having us ready to put forward a legit defensive effort in front of the home fans. Meanwhile Reggie continues to show a radically reformed attitude about playing the kids -- this was practically a kiddie night, Mikki Moore aside. First man off the bench? Jason Thompson. Second? Bobby Bornw. third? Quincy Douby. Fourth? Sheldon Williams. A pod person has takent he place of Reggie, who last year appeared so asininely stubborn on the issue that he was threatening to get himself fired over it. Now guess we see what happens when Brad comes back. Nothing terribly brilliant about this coaching performance, but he stayed out of the way, let the kids play, and got a good effort from most of the team. Good enough.
 
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Awesome defensive effort by Salmons especially.
Martin scoring effortlessly.
Mikki 11 rebounds! :eek:
Hawes stroking the threes... hey, it works.
Bobby Brown solidifying his role as backup point over B-Jax (painful but true).
JT attacking the boards with ferocity.
Beno... uh, keep trying.
Greene... wish you were playing.
~~

P.S. Theus gets an A just for deactivating Thomas and activating Greene.
 
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On KM's struggles early on...

Jeff (LA): Whats going on with your boy Kevin Martin. He needs to start doing some other things besides scoring. Do you think he'll be alright?

SportsNation David Thorpe: He's been pretty sick, actually. But he said this morning that he's feeling much better. Not sure it will help that team, though.

Maybe he played bad from being sick...or not.

Everyone remember when we all cringed at Spencer taking 3's? Not so much anymore eh?
 
Everyone remember when we all cringed at Spencer taking 3's? Not so much anymore eh?

I'm not exactly going to be calling for him to keep up his pace of more than one attempt out there per game, but at least they've been in the flow. And going in!
 
Everyone remember when we all cringed at Spencer taking 3's? Not so much anymore eh?
Speak for yourself; I can practically feel the blood vessels bursting in my eyes every time he does it.

I wouldn't give a damn if he shot a hundred percent from out there, I like my pivot men to play in the paint.
 
Everyone remember when we all cringed at Spencer taking 3's? Not so much anymore eh?

I still wish he wouldn't take the 3's, unless we move him to small-forward (sarcasm).

He's a center, and as such, should be trying his best to get offensive rebounds. That's hard to do at 23 feet (don't get me wrong, Spencer is playing very well as of late, and I'm very glad we have him). It'd kind of like last season, where for a stretch it seemed as if Brad Miller decided he was a point guard...um, no. It's great that our centers can pass and shoot, those are obviously great tools to have in the arsenal, but don't let them get in the way of the job of being a center. That's a big part of why I don't think Dirk deserved MVP at power forward.
 
Brown played very well; that's why he got the 4th quarter minutes. He is MUCH better than Beno defensively. His defense on the point contributed a lot to the defense of the other players around him (like Martin). If he plays a conservative offensive game and does the easy play rather than the flashy play, he should get more minutes than Beno.
 
Brown played very well; that's why he got the 4th quarter minutes. He is MUCH better than Beno defensively. His defense on the point contributed a lot to the defense of the other players around him (like Martin). If he plays a conservative offensive game and does the easy play rather than the flashy play, he should get more minutes than Beno.


I think Brown has been terrible defensively to this point. He really has. Been lit up like a Chistmas tree. He looks quick, but does nothing with it on one end of the floor, similar to another player we have.

Of course you can say that and still maybe not be inaccuratre about him being a better defender than Beno. As far as starting...this is the first game where Brown has been about anybody other than himself. Think we'll need more evidence he's a PG and not just another one on one gunner before we could ever consider starting the guy.
 
The Spencer Hawes drivel is ridiculous. You have a big man that can draw out the opposing big man from the basket and you are complaining? I guess if you had a guard that was a great at posting up you would want him to shoot three pointers. You play to a players strength. Being versatile is his strength. He's less than 1/10th in his second season and you want Shaq in the post. Get over it.
 
The Spencer Hawes drivel is ridiculous. You have a big man that can draw out the opposing big man from the basket and you are complaining? I guess if you had a guard that was a great at posting up you would want him to shoot three pointers. You play to a players strength. Being versatile is his strength. He's less than 1/10th in his second season and you want Shaq in the post. Get over it.

I'm going to give you a little homework assignment since it seems you missed out on NBA 101. Name the last NBA champion featuring a three point shooting center? I'll give you a hint: It was 20 years ago, and the only time it has happened in the entire history of the league.

Spencer can be as relevant as he wants to be. He can work on his post game and be potent in there. Or he can be just another pansy little wannabe guard without the toughness to do the dirty work inside. His choice.
 
I'd say he's a center who can shoot, so he's not a 3 point shooting center really, he can post up.

If JT is low there is no problem with Spencer playing high, I do agree though that he tends to run from the post against the stronger more aggressive PF's which is sad to see.
 
It is interesting that Marc Gasol is already commanding a presence in the paint. Being only 23 and the 48th pick he may be a steal. Time will only tell, but so far I am pretty impressed.
 
I'm going to give you a little homework assignment since it seems you missed out on NBA 101. Name the last NBA champion featuring a three point shooting center? I'll give you a hint: It was 20 years ago, and the only time it has happened in the entire history of the league.

Spencer can be as relevant as he wants to be. He can work on his post game and be potent in there. Or he can be just another pansy little wannabe guard without the toughness to do the dirty work inside. His choice.

Try 4 years ago Rasheed Wallace.

Now name those championship post centers the past 20 years. Shaq, Hakeem and David Robinson. (counting Duncan as PF). But anyways, whether you count Duncan or not it's only 3 or 4 players the past 20 years. Does any expect Hawes to be in that class of centers? No, but nobody else really has one at this point either, execpt maybe Yao and D. Howard.

Oh, and many of Mayo's points didn't come against Martin. I know in the first have 7 were on Douby including the one drive down the lane.
 
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Try 4 years ago Rasheed Wallace.

Nice guess, but nope. (Name the famous clock in London for $200).


Unless he's old and feeble and the legs are shot there really is no excuse for your biggest player to be playing pattycake with your PG 25 feet away from the hoop on any sort of consistent basis. You draw no fouls. You create no space for teammates. You grab no offensive rebounds. We might as well just put in another guard and gain some extra ballhandling.
 
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Nice guess, but nope. (Name the famous clock in London for $200).


Unless he's old and feeble and the legs are shot there is no excuse for your biggest player to be playing pattycake with your PG 25 feet away from the hoop on any sort of consistent basis.

Well you can go will the 6 foot 9 center or the 6-11 power forward. They were basically interchangeable at the positions. He was the tallest player and Ben was all defense no offense.

Rasheed is considered the center today so in reality he is a center. It's no different than calling TD a power forward when really he is a center.
 
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and yet, i wish i could remember back to a time where a kings starting center didnt like jacking up threes. :rolleyes:

it was probably OP, but still...

Vlade. Over his career, he attempted less than 0.4 three pointers per game. Some years, less than 0.1 per game. Which is as it should be for a C.
 
Are you saying he's not a center or a 3 point shooter?

I'm saying he didn't play center for the team that won the title. He played PF.

But here, even if we expand it to PFs, here are all of the championship C/PF combos since the league instituted the 3pt line in 1979-80 ()also the year Magic Johnson arrived in trhe league, and a year or two before I began to really follow things -- basically the modern era of the NBA, + of course before that time there were no 3pt shooting anybodys in the league):

So champsionhsip C/PF combos -- I will highlight anybody who shot any significant number of threes in red:

2008 Celtics; C- Perkins (inside roleplayer); PF- Garnett (jumpshooter but not 3pt shooter)
2007 Spurs; C- Oberto (inside roleplayer); PF- Duncan (post player)
2006 Heat; C- Shaq (post player); PF Haslem (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
2005 Spurs; C- Oberto (inside roleplayer); PF- Duncan (post player)
2004 Pistons; C- Big Ben (inside roleplayer); PF- Sheed (post player/3pt shooter)
2003 C- Robinson (post/jump shooter, no 3s); PF- Duncan (post player)
2002 Lakers; C- Shaq (post player); PF Horry (3pt shooter)
2001 Lakers; C- Shaq (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
2000 Lakers; C- Shaq (post player); PF Green (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1999 Spurs; C- Robinson (post/jump shooter, no 3s); PF- Duncan (post player)
1998 Bulls; C- Longley (post player); PF- Rodman (inside roleplayer);
1997 Bulls; C- Longley (post player); PF- Rodman (inside roleplayer);
1996 Bulls; C- Longley (post player); PF- Rodman (inside roleplayer);
1995 Rockets; C- Hakeem (post player); PF Horry (3pt shooter)
1994 Rockets; C- Hakeem (post player); PF Thorpe (post player);
1993 Bulls; C- Cartwright (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1992 Bulls; ; C- Cartwright (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1991 Bulls; ; C- Cartwright (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1990 Pistons; C- Laimbeer (3pt shooter); PF Edwards (post player);
1989 Pistons; C- Laimbeer (3pt shooter); PF Edwards (post player);
1988 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Green (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1987 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Green (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1986 Celtics; C- Parish (post player); PF McHale (post player);
1985 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Rambis (inside roleplayer);
1984 Celtics; C- Parish (post player); PF McHale (post player);
1983 Sixers; C- Moses (post player); PF Johnson?/Jones? (inside roleplayer);
1982 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Rambis? (inside roleplayer);
1981 Celtics; C- Parish (post player); PF Maxwell (post player);
1980 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Chones? (inside roleplayer);


That's the history. Winning big guys play inside. The frustrating part with Spencer is he has the talent to be a significant post player but the very battles you have to relish as a post player, he runs from.
 
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Somehow, I think our championship chances may rest on more than whether or not Spencer shoots one 3 each game. ;)
 
Somehow, I think our championship chances may rest on more than whether or not Spencer shoots one 3 each game. ;)


He gives me 10 post moves, he can earn himself one outside chuck. Then get his big *** back down in the paint where it belongs again. ;)
 
I'm saying he didn't play center for the team that won the title. He played PF.

But here, even if we expand it to PFs, here are all of the championship C/PF combos since the league instituted the 3pt line in 1979-80 ()also the year Magic Johnson arrived in trhe league, and a year or two before I began to really follow things -- basically the modern era of the NBA, + of course before that time there were no 3pt shooting anybodys in the league):

So champsionhsip C/PF combos -- I will highlight anybody who shot any significant number of threes in red:

2008 Celtics; C- Perkins (inside roleplayer); PF- Garnett (jumpshooter but not 3pt shooter)
2007 Spurs; C- Oberto (inside roleplayer); PF- Duncan (post player)
2006 Heat; C- Shaq (post player); PF Haslem (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
2005 Spurs; C- Oberto (inside roleplayer); PF- Duncan (post player)
2004 Pistons; C- Big Ben (inside roleplayer); PF- Sheed (post player/3pt shooter)
2003 C- Robinson (post/jump shooter, no 3s); PF- Duncan (post player)
2002 Lakers; C- Shaq (post player); PF Horry (3pt shooter)
2001 Lakers; C- Shaq (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
2000 Lakers; C- Shaq (post player); PF Green (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1999 Spurs; C- Robinson (post/jump shooter, no 3s); PF- Duncan (post player)
1998 Bulls; C- Longley (post player); PF- Rodman (inside roleplayer);
1997 Bulls; C- Longley (post player); PF- Rodman (inside roleplayer);
1996 Bulls; C- Longley (post player); PF- Rodman (inside roleplayer);
1995 Rockets; C- Hakeem (post player); PF Horry (3pt shooter)
1994 Rockets; C- Hakeem (post player); PF Thorpe (post player);
1993 Bulls; C- Cartwright (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1992 Bulls; ; C- Cartwright (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1991 Bulls; ; C- Cartwright (post player); PF Grant (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1990 Pistons; C- Laimbeer (3pt shooter); PF Edwards (post player);
1989 Pistons; C- Laimbeer (3pt shooter); PF Edwards (post player);
1988 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Green (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1987 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Green (jumpshooting roleplayer, no 3s);
1986 Celtics; C- Parish (post player); PF McHale (post player);
1985 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Rambis (inside roleplayer);
1984 Celtics; C- Parish (post player); PF McHale (post player);
1983 Sixers; C- Moses (post player); PF Johnson?/Jones? (inside roleplayer);
1982 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Rambis? (inside roleplayer);
1981 Celtics; C- Parish (post player); PF Maxwell (post player);
1980 Lakers; C- Kareem (post player); PF Chones? (inside roleplayer);


That's the history. Winning big guys play inside. The frustrating part with Spencer is he has the talent to be a significant post player but the very battles you have to relish as a post player, he runs from.

Once again. How many were dominant offensive post players? Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem, maybe McHale. The rest were very good post players, but not dominant like those mentioned. They werent the best players on their teams, in some cases not even top 4.

I think Rasheed is a very much like what Hawes is now. People always wondering why he doesn't post up more. The difference is Sheed is set, it's who he is. Hawes is still on 20 years old.

And lets not put it all on Hawes either. He can't get a rebound, dribble up the court and then post up. Someone has to get him the ball. Many times he has his man posted and the wing player never gets him the ball. How many times do you see Salmons throw the ball into the post? What about Garcia?
 
To be fair, Hawes did posted up several times and were ignored by the passers. Also to be fair, those times he was ignored were probably because he got pushed a little bit out of his comfort zone. I don't think Hawes is reluctant to post up against physical players, I think he simply is not strong enough to get good positions. At this stage in his career, I don't think he'll be very effective if he just hangs around the paint full time.

He should get more points in the paint has he gets stronger and/or extends his range in the post. But until then, the long jump shot remains the only shot he can get consistently.
 
Spencer can be as relevant as he wants to be. He can work on his post game and be potent in there. Or he can be just another pansy little wannabe guard without the toughness to do the dirty work inside. His choice.

Yep. Hawes can be Raef LaFrentz or he can be Vlade Divac. Raef Lafrentz is useless.
 
Hahaha.... Raef LaHawes. I love it.

Also, I should say that in theory I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a center shooting 2 or 3 threes a game, particularly when they are making 86% of them like Hawes currently is. It draws opposing bigs away from the basket, which opens up lanes to the hoop for the guards, and come on, a 3 is worth the same number of points if a guard or a center is shooting it. I seem to recall a certain Tim Duncan hitting big 3s from time to time, such as in the playoffs against Phoenix.

If that's ALL he does then we have a Raef problem. Of course, I wouldn't know what Hawes is or isn't doing because I can't watch the games.
 
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Hahaha.... Raef LaHawes. I love it.

Also, I should say that in theory I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with a center shooting 2 or 3 threes a game, particularly when they are making 86% of them like Hawes currently is. It draws opposing bigs away from the basket, which opens up lanes to the hoop for the guards, and come on, a 3 is worth the same number of points if a guard or a center is shooting it. I seem to recall a certain Tim Duncan hitting big 3s from time to time, such as in the playoffs against Phoenix.

If that's ALL he does then we have a Raef problem. Of course, I wouldn't know what Hawes is or isn't doing because I can't watch the games.

For a big man, having the ability to shoot threes that well at such a young age is both a blessing and a curse. Something tells me, with his type of shot selection and his tendencies to flee to the perimeter against more intimidating matchups, when someone shows him statistics of how he's shooting the ball so far (86% from three as you said) he's going to keep jacking them up without remorse. He seems to have little conscience and a semi-cocky sort of confidence (again, may be a good or bad thing). And he's actually very diversified when it comes to offense--very good post game for his age, great pick and pop mid range shooter, etc...so it's not like he's one-dimensional at all; he needs to mix and match appropriately, and hopefully that will come with more experience, in order to keep defenders truly honest.
 
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