[Grades] Grades v. Grizzlies 03/20/12

[VF21]

Hopefully Thorton's playing tonight will end some of the Thorton bashing I've read on this forum. No, he's not perfect when it comes to defense, but his offense output the last few games has made a HUGE difference and without him tonight, we would have lost the game.........

Note: I'm only quoting you since you're the last post to make the same mistake. Nothing personal...

The kid's name is THORNTON! It would be nice if Kings fans could at least get it right. Especially since he's been playing his heart out lately.

He can't get an assist if it isn't team play. I truly believe, as good as Thornton was last night and lately, that it is team play that's doing it for the Kings, and coincidentally for Thornton. This should be mentioned because Thornton is not always our best team player. He is improving in all ways and I am hopeful.

I completely and utterly agree with you. Back in the good old days, there were nights when no single player garnered a straight A from the Brick, but the final score showed a decisive W. Everybody playing at a B level, for example, is infinitely better than one player at an A and everybody else a D or F. There's a reason why honor rolls average all the grades and not just a single class.

 

[Glenn]

Thornton's name is the most often misspelled. I know for myself it is because I hunt and peck on the keyboard and the n and r get confused. Not that they are next to each other but the way the wiring of my brain screws things up. BUT, at least include all the proper letters!!!!!

It's humerous, actually.

And, to stay on thread, I agree with pshn80 that Thornton's scoring came out of the flow of team play. Thornton will get 40 some day but only if the team continues to pass. He can't do it alone.

 

[rainmaker]

What does Donte have to do to get consistent time? Can have a great game, then not play the next. Can have a great half, then not see the court the following half. I am really thinking I would like to keep him around as a backup SF. Will Smart play him there? Who the hell knows. But if we can sign/draft/trade for a legit starting SF and having Donte back him up, that's pretty solid.

Getting pretty sick of the inconsistent rotations and playing time though. Stop F'ing with Donte, give him consistent time, ESPECIALLY since we have a month to decide whether he sticks around, and he's looking more and more like he's matured, his game has matured, and if he walks he can somewhat blowup elsewhere, which would be a shame.

 

[Section 101]

What does Donte have to do to get consistent time? Can have a great game, then not play the next. Can have a great half, then not see the court the following half. I am really thinking I would like to keep him around as a backup SF. Will Smart play him there? Who the hell knows. But if we can sign/draft/trade for a legit starting SF and having Donte back him up, that's pretty solid.

Getting pretty sick of the inconsistent rotations and playing time though. Stop F'ing with Donte, give him consistent time, ESPECIALLY since we have a month to decide whether he sticks around, and he's looking more and more like he's matured, his game has matured, and if he walks he can somewhat blowup elsewhere, which would be a shame.

Like I said in another thread it will be Gerald Wallace V2.

 

[KingsFanatic]

He can't get an assist if it isn't team play. I truly believe, as good as Thornton was last night and lately, that it is team play that's doing it for the Kings, and coincidentally for Thornton. This should be mentioned because Thornton is not always our best team player. He is improving in all ways and I am hopeful.

I agree to a point, but nobody said Thornton was perfect right? and I'm not sure why some expect him to be....I"m not directing this at you Pshn80, but I'm directing it at a few others that I've seen rip him apart on this forum before. It's like you you can't go through a bad stretch without being ripped to shreds...... We remember how good he was last year right??? Players go through stretches like this, it's part of the game........It just like with some players, they are damned if they do and they are damned if they don't....I just like players to get the credit when the credit is due. But some people(not you) would rather only talk about them if they are going through a bad stretch, but they don't say anything good about them when they are tearing it up....

 

[KingsFanatic]

And, to stay on thread, I agree with pshn80 that Thornton's scoring came out of the flow of team play. Thornton will get 40 some day but only if the team continues to pass. He can't do it alone.

Good point, and that's why people shouldn't criticize ONLY HIM if he goes through a bad stretch...If the game isn't flowing and people aren't passing, he's not going to be very productive.

 

[pshn80]

What does Donte have to do to get consistent time? Can have a great game, then not play the next. Can have a great half, then not see the court the following half. I am really thinking I would like to keep him around as a backup SF. Will Smart play him there? Who the hell knows. But if we can sign/draft/trade for a legit starting SF and having Donte back him up, that's pretty solid.

Getting pretty sick of the inconsistent rotations and playing time though. Stop F'ing with Donte, give him consistent time, ESPECIALLY since we have a month to decide whether he sticks around, and he's looking more and more like he's matured, his game has matured, and if he walks he can somewhat blowup elsewhere, which would be a shame.

I think Greene is a relatively easy question for the staff. They don't have to play him any more than they are to make up their mind. He is a role player, now at the PF, maybe another time at the SF. He deserves the attention you describe but so many others need it, too. And he is not top on the list.

 

[VF21]

What does Donte have to do to get consistent time? Can have a great game, then not play the next. Can have a great half, then not see the court the following half. I am really thinking I would like to keep him around as a backup SF. Will Smart play him there? Who the hell knows. But if we can sign/draft/trade for a legit starting SF and having Donte back him up, that's pretty solid.

Getting pretty sick of the inconsistent rotations and playing time though. Stop F'ing with Donte, give him consistent time, ESPECIALLY since we have a month to decide whether he sticks around, and he's looking more and more like he's matured, his game has matured, and if he walks he can somewhat blowup elsewhere, which would be a shame.

Donte had totally taken himself out of any minutes before he came to us. Once Smart gets things sorted out, Donte can have a role coming off the bench and I hope it works out.

Gerald Wallace was a different story. We had to expose someone to the expansion draft, Wallace's work ethic at the time was non-existent and there's just as much reason to believe that him going to Charlotte actually saved his career as there is to believe he might ever have grown up here.

 

[The Hammer]

Donte had totally taken himself out of any minutes before he came to us. Once Smart gets things sorted out, Donte can have a role coming off the bench and I hope it works out.

Gerald Wallace was a different story. We had to expose someone to the expansion draft, Wallace's work ethic at the time was non-existent and there's just as much reason to believe that him going to Charlotte actually saved his career as there is to believe he might ever have grown up here.

Ok. VF, I luv ya, you know that, right? But did you know that we didn't HAVE to expose him? We could've exposed I think... Massenburg... or another similar player.

I still can't figure out why Petrie did that. Was it simply a paperwork mistake? It makes no sense why you wouldn't at least keep Mr. Wallace on the freak chance he'd figure out that working on your game is required to become a star.

From what I can gather, this is Petrie's worst decision in the last 12 years.

 

[VF21]

Ok. VF, I luv ya, you know that, right? But did you know that we didn't HAVE to expose him? We could've exposed I think... Massenburg... or another similar player.

I still can't figure out why Petrie did that. Was it simply a paperwork mistake? It makes no sense why you wouldn't at least keep Mr. Wallace on the freak chance he'd figure out that working on your game is required to become a star.

From what I can gather, this is Petrie's worst decision in the last 12 years.

We had no choice but to expose him after we didn't do the right thing with Peeler (can't remember what it was, but I suppose I could go back in the threads). Regardless, I think my second point is the salient one. Gerald Wallace was a goof-off who didn't take practice seriously, who only wanted to practice dunks, and who just didn't get it. Yes, he was flashy and full of potential but I don't think it would have come to anything here. By going to Charlotte, he got a second chance and took his career to places a lot of people here knew he could reach if he would just grow up.

Don't get me wrong. Gerald is one of my favorite former Kings. I'm actually happy for him because I think the wake-up call was a huge success.

 

[The Hammer]

Like I said in another thread it will be Gerald Wallace V2.

OMG Section 101 and I agree on something. Go run to a doorway.

Totally agree. Don't let Donte go no matter what you do. NOT worth the risk on what he could become (let alone what he actually is right now), for what anybody else might pay him.

I'm guessing he won't garner more than 3 mil/year on the open market, in which case the Kings better match. If they don't, I might just have Petrie snipered.

 

[VF21]

OMG Section 101 and I agree on something. Go run to a doorway.

Totally agree. Don't let Donte go no matter what you do. NOT worth the risk on what he could become (let alone what he actually is right now), for what anybody else might pay him.

I'm guessing he won't garner more than 3 mil/year on the open market, in which case the Kings better match. If they don't, I might just have Petrie snipered.

I don't think Donte is going anywhere. My problem is that some people think he's starter material and that's where I draw the line. I think he has the talent to be effective as part of the second unit, but he's not going to be the best #5 pick to ever play the game IMHO.

 

[The Hammer]

We had no choice but to expose him after we didn't do the right thing with Peeler (can't remember what it was, but I suppose I could go back in the threads). Regardless, I think my second point is the salient one. Gerald Wallace was a goof-off who didn't take practice seriously, who only wanted to practice dunks, and who just didn't get it. Yes, he was flashy and full of potential but I don't think it would have come to anything here. By going to Charlotte, he got a second chance and took his career to places a lot of people here knew he could reach if he would just grow up.

Don't get me wrong. Gerald is one of my favorite former Kings. I'm actually happy for him because I think the wake-up call was a huge success.

Ok. Just so you know, I hit the "repy with quote" right after the "Gerald Wallace was a goof off" words.

Now, to my point. Petrie could have easily protected Wallace instead of Peeler, who I think was an RFA after the season anyway (I could be wrong). You're reasoning makes sense on paper... but ****, GIVE THE GUY SOME MINUTES in his third or at least his fourth year... (We had the option at a reasonable price).

I, was THE first peroson, yes THE person, who started the "WAl-LACE", "WAL-LACE" chants. Yup, that was me (section 117, row K). NOBODY else did that in the arena. Remember those? During garbage time? They did not exist before I started changting those at the games, begging Adelman to put him in.

I consider myself the earliest ardent supporter of Wallace. I knew he was going to be a star from very early on. That Petrie did not protect him, for the sole benefit of keping Peeler for a potential playoff run that year, is simply inexcusable

(p.s. I could be wrong in that last post, it could have been that we solely kept peeler for the OPTION to extend him... which I don't think we did???)

 

[rainmaker]

Donte had totally taken himself out of any minutes before he came to us. Once Smart gets things sorted out, Donte can have a role coming off the bench and I hope it works out.

Gerald Wallace was a different story. We had to expose someone to the expansion draft, Wallace's work ethic at the time was non-existent and there's just as much reason to believe that him going to Charlotte actually saved his career as there is to believe he might ever have grown up here.

Not sure what you mean by he totally took himself out of any mins before coming to us. I disagree with the once Smart gets things sorted out stance, because we have so few games left this year, and Smart has wasted time playing guys, and Donte one of the main ones, out of position.

I don't see why you're implying we, or Smart should just sit back and be patient here. We have 20 games left to figure out if Donte is worth the investment of keeping him around. We can't wait for until once Smart figures it out as no one knows how long that might take, and we could lose Donte 20 games from now. And we're seeing flashes of development in his all around game, and I believe it would be a mistake to not know for sure what we have with him.

As for Wallace, I never compared the two, think that was section101. You make a good point going to Char might have saved his career. It could also be playing for a new coach and getting playing time. Here, Donte is finally playing for a new coach, getting at least some time, and is showing improvement. This situation could be similar to Wallace in Char for Donte.

 

[VF21]

Ok. Just so you know, I hit the "repy with quote" right after the "Gerald Wallace was a goof off" words.

Now, to my point. Petrie could have easily protected Wallace instead of Peeler, who I think was a free agent after the season anyway (I could be wrong). Your reasoning makes sense on paper... but ****, GIVE THE GUY SOME MINUTES in his third or at least his fourth year... (We had the option at a reasonable price).

I,(ME) was THE first peroson, yes THE person, the started the "WAl-LACE", "WAL-LACE" chants. Remember those? During garbage time? They did not exist before I (ME, YES, ME) started changting those at the games, begging Adelman to put him in.

I consider myself the earliest ardent supporter of Wallace. I knew he was going to be a star from very early on. That Petrie did not protect him, for the sole benefit of keping Peeler for a potential playoff run that year, is simply inexcusable

(p.s. I could be wrong in that last post, it could have been that we solely kept peeler for the OPTION to extend him... which I don't think we did???)

I actually don't think we're that far apart on our feelings about Gerald Wallace.

For whatever reasons, he had gotten himself into a dog house he was not going to get out of. Had he stayed here, it's quite possible he could have ended up totally discouraged and defeated. Sitting at the end of the bench when you know you have the hops and just want to prove it can do that to you.

So, although I do regret his potential wasn't realized here, I am incredibly happy for him that the Charlotte Bobcats gave him an opportunity to grow into a role he carved out for himself without the baggage dragging him down.

I don't remember the details on Peeler, but it was something about how we acquired him that kept us from exposing him to the draft, I think.

 

[VF21]

Not sure what you mean by he totally took himself out of any mins before coming to us. I disagree with the once Smart gets things sorted out stance, because we have so few games left this year, and Smart has wasted time playing guys, and Donte one of the main ones, out of position.

I don't see why you're implying we, or Smart should just sit back and be patient here. We have 20 games left to figure out if Donte is worth the investment of keeping him around. We can't wait for until once Smart figures it out as no one knows how long that might take, and we could lose Donte 20 games from now. And we're seeing flashes of development in his all around game, and I believe it would be a mistake to not know for sure what we have with him.

As for Wallace, I never compared the two, think that was section101. You make a good point going to Char might have saved his career. It could also be playing for a new coach and getting playing time. Here, Donte is finally playing for a new coach, getting at least some time, and is showing improvement. This situation could be similar to Wallace in Char for Donte.

Donte is a good guy. Donte has never lived up to his own potential. We can argue forever, but I don't think either of us will change our minds so I propose we agree to disagree.

 

[Section 101]

I actually don't think we're that far apart on our feelings about Gerald Wallace.

For whatever reasons, he had gotten himself into a dog house he was not going to get out of. Had he stayed here, it's quite possible he could have ended up totally discouraged and defeated. Sitting at the end of the bench when you know you have the hops and just want to prove it can do that to you.

So, although I do regret his potential wasn't realized here, I am incredibly happy for him that the Charlotte Bobcats gave him an opportunity to grow into a role he carved out for himself without the baggage dragging him down.

I don't remember the details on Peeler, but it was something about how we acquired him that kept us from exposing him to the draft, I think.

Peeler had a player option that he exercised making him a free agent. We could have exposed Christie who we traded the next year or Webb we didn't want to hurt his feelings even though it was unlikely they would have taken him.

 

[Section 101]

Donte is a good guy. Donte has never lived up to his own potential. We can argue forever, but I don't think either of us will change our minds so I propose we agree to disagree.

Donte is a 1.5 years older than Evans, he's a year younger than Williams who we just signed to a 10 day contract, but Donte has 1 more year pro experience.

Sometimes players take longer to develop. Donte is like Wallace in that they both entered the draft after 1 year of college. Both have had their work ethic questioned. Both never really got any consistant playing time. Both showed flashes of what could be a starter level career. It worked out for Wallace. Will it for Donte?

 

[The_Jamal]

Donte is a 1.5 years older than Evans, he's a year younger than Williams who we just signed to a 10 day contract, but Donte has 1 more year pro experience.

Sometimes players take longer to develop. Donte is like Wallace in that they both entered the draft after 1 year of college. Both have had their work ethic questioned. Both never really got any consistant playing time. Both showed flashes of what could be a starter level career. It worked out for Wallace. Will it for Donte?

I think we all lose sight of how truly young these guys are and how much time they still have to develop. Greene, Thornton, Reke, IT, Cousins, Jimmer, Hassan, Honeycutt are all under 24 and JT is only 25. These guys are 3+ years from their prime!

It's really exciting to think how good these guys can be in a few years

 

[pshn80]

How can people mention Greene and Wallace in the same breath? As I said earlier I don't see Greene getting this much attention. He is what he is. If he stays it's because the team sees his value. If he goes I'm sure it will be for what he is worth. Wallace is ancient history.

 

[The Hammer]

I think we all lose sight of how truly young these guys are and how much time they still have to develop. Greene, Thornton, Reke, IT, Cousins, Jimmer, Hassan, Honeycutt are all under 24 and JT is only 25. These guys are 3+ years from their prime!

It's really exciting to think how good these guys can be in a few years

****!!

I just posted this great post about how you and I agree on this!!!!

CRAP!!

Well... suffice it to say, we'd be idiots to let Donte go, especially for what he may get on the open market... what maybe 2 years for 7 mil??? I think we can afford that to keep him around as a 7-12TH man!!! LOOK AT WHAT WE ARE PAYING OUTLAW!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right... these guys are so young!!!

 

[Kings Faithful]

****!!

I just posted this great post about how you and I agree on this!!!!

CRAP!!

Well... suffice it to say, we'd be idiots to let Donte go, especially for what he may get on the open market... what maybe 2 years for 7 mil??? I think we can afford that to keep him around as a 7-12TH man!!! LOOK AT WHAT WE ARE PAYING OUTLAW!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right... these guys are so young!!!

I think Donte is finally starting to realize he can score from inside the 3pt range... he still needs to cut down the long range bombs, but he has been hitting a good percentage of his drives and floaters. If he can become that athletic SF with driving ability and an occasional 3...awesome.

 

[The Hammer]

I think Donte is finally starting to realize he can score from inside the 3pt range... he still needs to cut down the long range bombs, but he has been hitting a good percentage of his drives and floaters. If he can become that athletic SF with driving ability and an occasional 3...awesome.

The dude still has much unrealized potential.

If he starts to see that 1) he'll be cut loose of this squad if he doesn't improve and 2) if he doesn't improve and gets cut loose he's not going to make more money let alone get an opportunity elsewhere...

He'll hopefully see that:

1) His best opportunity for 1)getting playing time and 2)getting playing time so that he can earn any kind of decent contract is 3): WITH THE KINGS... I think he'll hone up his skills as much as possible... hopefully the Kings FO realizes they've still got a bargain on their hands.

Hopefully Donte has a half decent agent who realizes where his best opportunity to make $$$ lies.

 

[Bricklayer]

The dude still has much unrealized potential.

If he starts to see that 1) he'll be cut loose of this squad if he doesn't improve and 2) if he doesn't improve and gets cut loose he's not going to make more money let alone get an opportunity elsewhere...

He'll hopefully see that:

1) His best opportunity for 1)getting playing time and 2)getting playing time so that he can earn any kind of decent contract is 3): WITH THE KINGS... I think he'll hone up his skills as much as possible... hopefully the Kings FO realizes they've still got a bargain on their hands.

Hopefully Donte has a half decent agent who realizes where his best opportunity to make $$$ lies.

Oh, Donte can certainly find better opportunities to earn minutes/money than he wil in Sacto. And he just might. But I think his gnereal good nature and personal attachement to guys liek JT and Reke really would keep him in town if we just showed him the least little amount of love.

 

[The Hammer]

Oh, Donte can certainly find better opportunities to earn minutes/money than he wil in Sacto. And he just might. But I think his gnereal good nature and personal attachement to guys liek JT and Reke really would keep him in town if we just showed him the least little amount of love.

I'm glad to hear this from our future GM.

Not kidding.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Now, to my point. Petrie could have easily protected Wallace instead of Peeler, who I think was an RFA after the season anyway (I could be wrong). You're reasoning makes sense on paper... but ****, GIVE THE GUY SOME MINUTES in his third or at least his fourth year... (We had the option at a reasonable price).

That Petrie did not protect him, for the sole benefit of keping Peeler for a potential playoff run that year, is simply inexcusable

(p.s. I could be wrong in that last post, it could have been that we solely kept peeler for the OPTION to extend him... which I don't think we did???)

We REALLY need to have a sticky for this. Wallace was not exposed so we could keep Peeler, or any such nonsense. Peeler had a player option that summer and was not eligible to be exposed (teams had to expose at least one player, and the league didn't let them pull any silly expose-a-free-agent-ha-ha-ha tricks). Our options were to expose one of our core (Webber, Bibby, Peja, Christie, Miller, Jackson - Vlade was a free agent) or Wallace. There was some argument for a Webber gambit but the choice was pretty obvious.

Where Petrie went wrong was actually the offseason BEFORE the expansion draft. The date and rules of the draft were already known, and Petrie ought to have signed Peeler to a two-year contract rather than a 1+player option (or alternately, found another scrub to offer a two-year deal) so that we had somebody to expose.

 

[The Hammer]

We REALLY need to have a sticky for this. Wallace was not exposed so we could keep Peeler, or any such nonsense. Peeler had a player option that summer and was not eligible to be exposed (teams had to expose at least one player, and the league didn't let them pull any silly expose-a-free-agent-ha-ha-ha tricks). Our options were to expose one of our core (Webber, Bibby, Peja, Christie, Miller, Jackson - Vlade was a free agent) or Wallace. There was some argument for a Webber gambit but the choice was pretty obvious.

Where Petrie went wrong was actually the offseason BEFORE the expansion draft. The date and rules of the draft were already known, and Petrie ought to have signed Peeler to a two-year contract rather than a 1+player option (or alternately, found another scrub to offer a two-year deal) so that we had somebody to expose.

Thank you.

I knew there was some kind of flub on Petrie's/the staff's end... just wasn't sure what it was... I guess it was in not signing some scrub (Peeler included) to some kind of guaranteed deal before that season started in order to be able to expose a guaranteed player other than Wallace.

 

[kingsfan101]

We REALLY need to have a sticky for this. Wallace was not exposed so we could keep Peeler, or any such nonsense. Peeler had a player option that summer and was not eligible to be exposed (teams had to expose at least one player, and the league didn't let them pull any silly expose-a-free-agent-ha-ha-ha tricks). Our options were to expose one of our core (Webber, Bibby, Peja, Christie, Miller, Jackson - Vlade was a free agent) or Wallace. There was some argument for a Webber gambit but the choice was pretty obvious.

Where Petrie went wrong was actually the offseason BEFORE the expansion draft. The date and rules of the draft were already known, and Petrie ought to have signed Peeler to a two-year contract rather than a 1+player option (or alternately, found another scrub to offer a two-year deal) so that we had somebody to expose.

It's water under the bridge, but I felt we should have exposed DC then, and I say this with a lot of respect for him.

I do wonder though, if GW was exposed as a favor to him. Recall reading something on ESPN then, that Bobcats really targeted him. So Geoff likely knew that he shall be gone if he was made available, yet did it anyway. He probably was looking at the immediate window then, where DC was more critical.

Personally, I doubt an expansion franchise like Bobcats would have picked a vet like DC. Of course, there was a risk, but I think the bigger risk would have been a bruised ego for DC. But GW probably wanted out by that time, since he was really really good, but didn't get much chance on a loaded, veteran, contending roster.

 

[The Hammer]

It's water under the bridge, but I felt we should have exposed DC then, and I say this with a lot of respect for him.

I do wonder though, if GW was exposed as a favor to him. Recall reading something on ESPN then, that Bobcats really targeted him. So Geoff likely knew that he shall be gone if he was made available, yet did it anyway. He probably was looking at the immediate window then, where DC was more critical.

Personally, I doubt an expansion franchise like Bobcats would have picked a vet like DC. Of course, there was a risk, but I think the bigger risk would have been a bruised ego for DC. But GW probably wanted out by that time, since he was really really good, but didn't get much chance on a loaded, veteran, contending roster.

I contend that the whole thing was an unintended mistake.

Egos, etc. aside, we should have kept Wallace, no matter the circumstances. We would have had any player through the playoffs... but signing Peeler to a two year guaranteed deal, knowing all the rules, was a no brainer, so that we could have exposed him, rather than Wallace. That Petrie didn't, can only be viewed as a mistake.

 

[Bricklayer]

We REALLY need to have a sticky for this. Wallace was not exposed so we could keep Peeler, or any such nonsense. Peeler had a player option that summer and was not eligible to be exposed (teams had to expose at least one player, and the league didn't let them pull any silly expose-a-free-agent-ha-ha-ha tricks). Our options were to expose one of our core (Webber, Bibby, Peja, Christie, Miller, Jackson - Vlade was a free agent) or Wallace. There was some argument for a Webber gambit but the choice was pretty obvious.

Where Petrie went wrong was actually the offseason BEFORE the expansion draft. The date and rules of the draft were already known, and Petrie ought to have signed Peeler to a two-year contract rather than a 1+player option (or alternately, found another scrub to offer a two-year deal) so that we had somebody to expose.

Yep, we have ot recanvass this every year or two, but that's pretty much the exact sequence. Been going on 10 years now and still grates. Suppose eventually teeth gnashing will die off and we'll probably only have to go through it once every 5 years or so after we hit the 20th anniversary.