Grades v. Bucks 01/24

[Viking]

That is like attempting to swing on a swingset without ever going backward.

i have a new goal in life

 

[Vlade4GM]

i think rebuilding through the draft is more proactive and goal oriented than just being content with the 8th seed and depending on hope that final piece just falls into your laps without having to sacrifice to get it. you can't have your cake and eat it to, we can't cheap our way back to the top. you're either going for the championship now or you're going for it later, any middle ground is just pointless. the championship is always what it should be about and a wimpy core of ok vets is not going to get it done EVER.

 

[SacTownKid]

That is like attempting to swing on a swingset without ever going backward. The backward motion is a necessary component of the next forward thrust.

And the point is to acheive the highest forward thrust (championship), and if that requires a little spilt milk along the way, so be it.

Merely sitting on the swing motionless and saying "ha! Look at me, at least I'm not going backward!" leads nowhere.

I think rebuilding with a good draft position is a logical choice for certain situations. I don't know if it's the best for us right now. Do you dump players the calibur of Mike Bibby, Ron Artest, and Brad Miller in order to get Yi Jianlian? or some other guy compared to Horace Grant or Boris Diaw? I just can't agree with that one. That would be a huge step backwards not only in the short run but I'd put my money on the long run as well.

I will admit that the idea of seeing a consistent rotation of Q Douby, Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Francisco Garcia, and Justin Williams does excite me but I don't like the idea of dumping talent for a huge ??? in what possibly will be just a slightly better draft pick.

I do think this team is in an excellent position to go young if that is the choice, but it isn't like Bibby and Artest are old or anything.

It's a tough call but I can understand reasoning on both sides.

 

[SacTownKid]

What are the teams that rebuilt through the draft? And I am talking about teams that demolished the entire house and built a team through the draft.

 

[nbrans]

What are the teams that rebuilt through the draft? And I am talking about teams that demolished the entire house and built a team through the draft.

This is the danger -- teams that rebuild only through the draft end up looking like Boston -- too much young talent, not enough good veterans, years of suckitude. But I don't think anyone on the board is advocating rebuilding solely through the draft. It's just one component of an entire process that includes free agency (Kings will have cap room if Bibby opts out of there is a trade for one ender), developing the young players we do have, and trades.

There are only three ways of adding talent to your team: Free agency, good trades that end in a net positive (not easy) and the draft. It's not rocket science. So when you badly need talent it behooves you to hope that draft pick is as good as possible.

 

[SacTownKid]

But the things is, if you go young, you go young. You are making a commitment to those young players in order to develop them. In falls in line with the whole VISION thing.

You can't just dump everything, start over, and say well now lets bring in great players to fill it out. What guaranteed impact star level player is going to jump on that train? You see guys like KG and Paul Pierce needing out of that situation.

It won't happen automatically and if you've dumped everything you have, you have nothing tangible left as trade assets.

 

[nbrans]

But the things is, if you go young, you go young. You are making a commitment to those young players in order to develop them. In falls in line with the whole VISION thing.

You can't just dump everything, start over, and say well now lets bring in great players to fill it out. What guaranteed impact star level player is going to jump on that train? You see guys like KG and Paul Pierce needing out of that situation.

It won't happen automatically and if you've dumped everything you have, you have nothing tangible left as trade assets.

I really don't understand what you're talking about. How do you see this team getting better? Magic?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I would have my eye on the 2011 offseason, when many of the studs from the 2003 draft class that signed extensions last year should be unrestricted free agents... and nearly all of them should still be in their primes.

So, tank to get Oden or Durant, give him four years to develop into a superstar, build most of a team around him over the next three years, and then sign that second superstar as a free agent in 2011 to complete the equation.

EDIT - Oops! I meant 2011.

 

[SacTownKid]

I really don't understand what you're talking about. How do you see this team getting better? Magic?

Well certainly not by dumping your most talented players to move up a few spaces in the draft. I think the Kings can realistically keep a level of talent and shoot for free agency.

But above all is picking a style of play and bringing in the pieces that fit into that style of play, whether it be through trade, free agency, or maybe even the draft. All I have heard is that the Maloofs want to be a defensive team because defense wins when it counts. Yet they haven't made any trades or moves to better them in this area other than the Artest trade and Justin Williams signing. I think this team has something to build with. These next couple of weeks are going to be very interesting.

I think of building through the draft as option 1A when you have completely depleted your level of talent already but the Kings aren't there yet.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well certainly not by dumping your most talented players to move up a few spaces in the draft. I think the Kings can realistically keep a level of talent and shoot for free agency.

Yeah, we can "keep a level of talent," all right; the same mediocre level of talent that we've had for the past two years. The players that we have won't get it done, and it's past time to move them.

We can't get anybody in free agency that's going to make a difference, because we're too far over the cap as it is. The only way that we're going to be able to get an impact player in free agency is if we clear cap space. And the only way that we're going to have enough cap space to do that is by dumping our "most talented" players.

And, anyway, "most talented" players? That might be true, but it's not even remotely a sacred cow. Hell, FSM is the "most talented" player on the Knicks, but that means jack and ****; he's not a player that a team should be built around, and neither is Bibby, nor Miller, nor Artest.

 

[SacTownKid]

I am not debating whether Artest, Miller, or Bibby are something to build around. Merely that dumping them seems unnecessary and that "building through the draft" may be a step in the wrong direction with where we are age wise and talent wise.

 

[nbrans]

Adding to what Slim said, I don't think it's necessary to dump every single good player the Kings and start over like a lottery team. All it takes is trading one of the good players -- Bibby, Miller or Artest -- for an expiring contract and possibly a late first round draft pick and the Kings will be players in free agency and the draft, with all kinds of options. They could package their picks to move up, they could use the cap space to facilitate a trade... moves that will result in a much better offseason than just sitting tight and hoping for the best.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much of these trades for expirings and draft picks are realistic, and it's possible Petrie wants to see what happens with Bibby and his possible opting out of his contract before making any big moves. The Kings could have $12 million in cap space if Bibby opts out, which is more than enough given the talent level this offseason -- trading for more cap space now could potentially be overkill.

So I increasingly agree with what VF21 said in another thread. I don't really think there will be trades this year unless they're strictly talent upgrades.

 

[chelle]

I am not debating whether Artest, Miller, or Bibby are something to build around. Merely that dumping them seems unnecessary and that "building through the draft" may be a step in the wrong direction with where we are age wise and talent wise.

For what its worth, I'm with you .

I think that we need a combination of both arguments to really improve. We do need to draft well and wisely. I DO NOT think that we need to "dump" our vets. I believe strongly, that we need the stability of seasoned players on our roster. I think we should keep Mike. He has had a subpar season. I know that, but I still believe that he is better than many give him credit as being. Martin is also a keeper. However,if trading either of them brought an improvement at their position, I would do it.

Our biggest weakness is our front court. I love Brad and would hate to see him go. He brings a lot to his position, but we need more. We are horribly inconsistent at the power forward position. I think that we need to focus our attention on those positions.

We should combine rebuilding through the draft with trades and free agency.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

For what its worth, I'm with you .

I think that we need a combination of both arguments to really improve. We do need to draft well and wisely. I DO NOT think that we need to "dump" our vets. I believe strongly, that we need the stability of seasoned players on our roster. I think we should keep Mike. He has had a subpar season. I know that, but I still believe that he is better than many give him credit as being. Martin is also a keeper. However,if trading either of them brought an improvement at their position, I would do it.

Our biggest weakness is our front court. I love Brad and would hate to see him go. He brings a lot to his position, but we need more. We are horribly inconsistent at the power forward position. I think that we need to focus our attention on those positions.

We should combine rebuilding through the draft with trades and free agency.

Do people honestly think that we're advocating filling our whole roster through the draft? Of course it's going to take free agency and trades, but the draft is where you start with your centerpiece, so you can go out there and seek players who complement him nicely.

 

[SacTownKid]

Adding to what Slim said, I don't think it's necessary to dump every single good player the Kings and start over like a lottery team. All it takes is trading one of the good players -- Bibby, Miller or Artest -- for an expiring contract and possibly a late first round draft pick and the Kings will be players in free agency and the draft, with all kinds of options. They could package their picks to move up, they could use the cap space to facilitate a trade... moves that will result in a much better offseason than just sitting tight and hoping for the best.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much of these trades for expirings and draft picks are realistic, and it's possible Petrie wants to see what happens with Bibby and his possible opting out of his contract before making any big moves. The Kings could have $12 million in cap space if Bibby opts out, which is more than enough given the talent level this offseason -- trading for more cap space now could potentially be overkill.

So I increasingly agree with what VF21 said in another thread. I don't really think there will be trades this year unless they're strictly talent upgrades.

That is where I am at. But the dicussion here is "building through the draft", "tanking for a good pick", and "going young". If the idea is to tank you have to trade your best players to increase the odds that you get the pick you want.

As for trades this year. I'd be shocked if there are no cap related moves near the deadline. They may not even look so good at the time but I happen to think there is some sort of method to this madness. As you've said though, that does have to involve at least one of our larger contracts and I'd be fine with that if it fits into whatever plan they have set forth.

 

[SacTownKid]

Do people honestly think that we're advocating filling our whole roster through the draft? Of course it's going to take free agency and trades, but the draft is where you start with your centerpiece, so you can go out there and seek players who complement him nicely.

No but people are advocating dumping the talent we have now in order to suck our way into a franchise player. But at that point it may be harder to make the trades you need to or to bring in the free agents you need to fill out a semi competitive team. We're talking Trailblazer territory here.

 

[fnordius]

...it's possible Petrie wants to see what happens with Bibby and his possible opting out of his contract before making any big moves. The Kings could have $12 million in cap space if Bibby opts out, which is more than enough given the talent level this offseason -- trading for more cap space now could potentially be overkill.

So I increasingly agree with what VF21 said in another thread. I don't really think there will be trades this year unless they're strictly talent upgrades.

The whole Bibby situation seems to me to be iffier than the draft. Considering what a lousy year he's been having, there aren't likely to be any big offers for him, so he will probably stay. Even if he doesn't, most teams have been signing their key players to extensions, so there are only a couple of starting-quality PGs that are likely to be available on the FA market. Put the two together and you have a pretty small chance of anything good happening.

 

[Bricklayer]

No but people are advocating dumping the talent we have now in order to suck our way into a franchise player. But at that point it may be harder to make the trades you need to or to bring in the free agents you need to fill out a semi competitive team. We're talking Trailblazer territory here.

a) the Trailblazers are rapidly moving toward bright future status wiht all their accumlated youth.

b) the key is trying to trade for somewhat equal talent/value, but with that talent/value jsut not being ready to win yet. So you get young guys, picks, caproom. All things that let you recoup the talent you traded away in the future, while losing the games you need to in the short term. Its not about dumping players for nothing.

 

[BMiller52]

No but people are advocating dumping the talent we have now in order to suck our way into a franchise player. But at that point it may be harder to make the trades you need to or to bring in the free agents you need to fill out a semi competitive team. We're talking Trailblazer territory here.

Call me crazy but right now I might just take their roster over ours.

 

[VF21]

Do people honestly think that we're advocating filling our whole roster through the draft? Of course it's going to take free agency and trades, but the draft is where you start with your centerpiece, so you can go out there and seek players who complement him nicely.

Exactly. I have to suspect a lot of the people who have gone into panic mode still don't understand what rebuilding through the draft entails...

 

[Vlade4GM]

we're more than likely going to have to trade two of bibby, miller, artest, and abdur-rahim if not more. you can't have it both ways, we're not going to be able to keep all of them and still compete for oden, durant, and wright. it's just not going to happen that way unless we're the luckiest team on earth and get a ton of luck in the lottery. you can't have your cake and eat it too, it's either stick with this roster and patchwork and pray something big falls into our laps or you start fresh with a young roster and build around draft picks and cap space. that's the reality of it, you can't mix both because they don't mix.

 

[SacTownKid]

The whole Bibby situation seems to me to be iffier than the draft. Considering what a lousy year he's been having, there aren't likely to be any big offers for him, so he will probably stay. Even if he doesn't, most teams have been signing their key players to extensions, so there are only a couple of starting-quality PGs that are likely to be available on the FA market. Put the two together and you have a pretty small chance of anything good happening.

The NBA just isn't that fickle. Look at the deal Peja got for example.

I look at the Bibby situation as a win win with many different directions. If he leaves we get cap space which could mean a quicker restructuring of personnel. We can re-sign him to a deal that will most likely start at a few million less then his original current year, saving money on the cap in the short term. Or we can deal him at the deadline.

With the recent deadline events regarding impending free agency I could see this as a possibility if Petrie thinks he'll lose him for nothing but maybe not. See, the Kings obviously dealt Peja for a few reasons. They clearly had no intentions of keeping him long term so they got what they could for him. But his situaition was different because him leaving at the end of the year would have had no positive cap implications. Bibby's situation is different because it could be the beginning of serious cap space in the years to come.

 

[SacTownKid]

a) the Trailblazers are rapidly moving toward bright future status wiht all their accumlated youth.

b) the key is trying to trade for somewhat equal talent/value, but with that talent/value jsut not being ready to win yet. So you get young guys, picks, caproom. All things that let you recoup the talent you traded away in the future, while losing the games you need to in the short term. Its not about dumping players for nothing.

But the thing is, how long will it take. The longer it takes the more players you end up signing to mega deal extensions a la Zach Randolph.

I would very much compare our situation to that of the Trailblazers. Obviously there may not be as many behind the scenes disasters but very similar. Tearing down a team with talent, playoff contention, and throwing it away for youth.

As for the Blazers bright future. I'll believe that when I see it. Which may still be 3-4 years away.

 

[chelle]

Do people honestly think that we're advocating filling our whole roster through the draft? Of course it's going to take free agency and trades, but the draft is where you start with your centerpiece, so you can go out there and seek players who complement him nicely.

That is what I am saying we should do. Many have implied that we should dump them all and start from scratch. That is what I disagree with. I also think that we should be prepared because rebuilding the way will take time. Many appear to think that if we work just within the draft, it will just be a season or 2 before we are competative again, It will take longer, but will be worth it.

My main issue is when people are cheering for us to lose in order to get a draft pick or encourge "tanking." I can't respect that. Losses hurt less knowing that our draft pick MAY be higher, but I cannot and will not advocate cheering for losses to increase the number of pimg pong balls with our name on it.

 

[SacTownKid]

Exactly. I have to suspect a lot of the people who have gone into panic mode still don't understand what rebuilding through the draft entails...

I do. It means removing the talent that may help you win games. In our case it means Bibby, Miller, and Artest. And most likely all three of them because none will accept sticking in a tank situation.

My take on the draft is, whatever will be will be. Unless the guys in charge make it be.

 

[fnordius]

The NBA just isn't that fickle. Look at the deal Peja got for example.

I look at the Bibby situation as a win win with many different directions. If he leaves we get cap space which could mean a quicker restructuring of personnel. We can re-sign him to a deal that will most likely start at a few million less then his original current year, saving money on the cap in the short term. Or we can deal him at the deadline.

With the recent deadline events regarding impending free agency I could see this as a possibility if Petrie thinks he'll lose him for nothing...

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that, due to his performance this year, Bibby won't get any offers on the FA market that are better than his existing contract, so I see little chance that he will opt out of the remainder of his contract. It sounds as if Petrie isn't planning on any major trades, so I expect we will have Bibby around for another couple of years.

 

[SacTownKid]

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that, due to his performance this year, Bibby won't get any offers on the FA market that are better than his existing contract, so I see little chance that he will opt out of the remainder of his contract. It sounds as if Petrie isn't planning on any major trades, so I expect we will have Bibby around for another couple of years.

I guess it depends what Bibby wants. Does he want the security of a contract that may pay him less but guarantee's a longer period of security or the quick buck?

Whoa....Peja Vu. I think we've been here before. Screw it, I know how this one plays out, dudes getting traded at the deadline. End of story.

 

[VF21]

I do. It means removing the talent that may help you win games. In our case it means Bibby, Miller, and Artest. And most likely all three of them because none will accept sticking in a tank situation.

My take on the draft is, whatever will be will be. Unless the guys in charge make it be.

Erm, no... It doesn't necessarily mean removing the talent that may help you win games.

NONE of us really know what it entails because there aren't a lot of examples.

 

[SacTownKid]

Erm, no... It doesn't necessarily mean removing the talent that may help you win games.

NONE of us really know what it entails because there aren't a lot of examples.

I have given one. The Portland Trailblazers.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I have given one. The Portland Trailblazers.

You always trade short-term "success" for long-term success, unless you know that you can win now. Always. Portland absolutely did the right thing.

Anybody who, given the choice between cutting bait and starting over to give yourself a chance to be a championship contender in seven years or keeping the status quo and remaining a playoff contender for five years before it all broke down anyway, would choose the latter, doesn't have their head on straight.

The players we have now can't win a championship together; they'll never win a championship together. And stubbornly hanging on to them and refusing to start from scratch and give yourself a chance to be great down the line because you can still "contend" for a playoff spot right now (as if that's a goal worth having)... it's simply wrong-headed thinking. There's nobody that we can get in free agency that's going to be the final piece in making this group of players a championship team; we're simply too far over the cap to sign any player of consequence; it has to come via trades or the draft. And we've got a much better chance of drafting a superstar than we have trading for one.

People who continue to think that this "core" will ever amount to anything are cutting off their nose to spite their face. Cut bait, already.