Get Spencer the Ball in the POST!

Sure, so all Spence has to do is post Shaq and Oden down low over and over again - to no avail - and he will really dominate...Right.:cool: This is reminescent of the "three clouds of dust" philosophy in football, or the trench warfare of WWI (that worked out real well). Personally, I'd rather attack the weaknesses of an opponent, rather than their strengths, more like the guerilla warfare Sun Tsu. I agree with the point guard comment. When we finally get one worth a darn, Spencer and all the big guys will prosper.

The whole point is that Spencer is NOT a "three clouds of dust" type of player. Some guys are. He's not.
 
Ok, then who is the Detroit Red Wings? Sometimes analogies for the sake of analogies don't really work... Maybe Marmaduke is the next duke of earl.

Brick's post reminded me of the difference between the Colts and the Patriots. It wasn't just because I have time to burn. That's what I thought about.
 
Trying to make Duncan into something other than a post player for the sake of argument is not sound. You chase Tim Duncan out of the post one way: with doubles. Actually you don't even chase him out of the psot that way. Then he just beats you by moving the ball. Which is the real value of a post player. Spencer's post game is of little value to anyone other than Spencer. He creates no spacing, beats no opponent worth beating with it, gets nobody of note in foul trouble, causes no real problems for oppposing teams with it, because he lacks conviction in there. He actually plays like a softie who lacks guts in there and is afraid of contact, but given his overall demeanor I think conviction is the actual problem not softness.

As a further aside, NOBODY said anything about bullying his way to the basket. Spencer couldn't bullya 90lb weakling, although that's roughly the only person he'll test. Some of the best players of all time have done it on pure skill -- McHale and Hakeem come to mind. But EVERY great post player has conviction in there and makes the defense respond to the threat he poses. That is the whole key to the dominance that dominant post players have had throughout history. They break a defense, not by their own scoring, but by making the defense respond to their threat and lose containment on their teammates. It does not require bullying, but the guts to hang in there and fight, yes.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Especially that he looks soft at times, I think he is frustratingly inconsistent, but when he does go in the post he can be enormously effective. I also tend to think that his inconsistenty is tied to his youth and inexperience, and not his mindset. I also, however, think that developing a consistent outside game is a good thing as well. I never said that Duncan wasn't a post player, I was making my point specifically in the context of what you said about "taking what you want whether the other guy wants you to have it or not," and your criticism of Hawes for adjusting to his opponents. Duncan can certainly take what he wants a great deal of the time, but he also has a versatile game and will step out and take an easy jump shot when it is given to him, which allows better floor spacing (clearing out the post) and gives him the chance to pass into the lane since his defender will come out with him. Like I said, Shaq is the only play I have personally seen who didn't have to do this, who could just stand in the lane and make everything from within 3 feet, no matter how many guys are guarding him.


Oh, and BTW, one thing that these discussions reveal is that people have no idea what a great post player looks like, little idea of what makes a great player period, and here is the eye opener, have a much lesser opinion of Spencer Hawes' talent in there than I do. I find it ironic that people will whine about me being tough on Spencer when I am the only one giving him any real credit. Spencer can be a GREAT post player. But he never will be if he is allowed to squander it. And whatever else he may end up being instead, it will be less valuable to his team than being a great post player would be.

Again, I agree with you, so maybe this just shows some misunderstanding on my part of your original post. Watching Spencer is frustrating because he is very inconsistent, but he has shown that he can get in the post and score consistently. I'm not sure where you get off saying that I don't know what a great player looks like, though. I think maybe we have different expectations of what Hawes should look like at this point in his career. I think he is closer to a Garnett or Nowitzki than Duncan or Shaq, meaning that playing in the paint will be one part of his game, but he will also bring an extra dimension by hitting a lot of outside shots and 3 pointers, stretching the defense and getting guys to be out of position, allowing for, like I said before, better spacing for our guys on the offense to get pentetration and lay-ups. In your original post you stated that "players can't even trust Spencer to BE in the post in the first place. And the blame there lies squarely at Spencer's feet, or rather in Spencer's head. The day he quits screwing around, starts running to the post and demanding the ball, not when the other team allows him too, not when he feels like it, but every time down the floor, is the day when his lack of post opportunities will become the responsibility of his teammates". I think if the offense is fluid, if Spencer moves around the floor and can take outside shots as well as getting his points in the paint, the team will be better off for it.
 
But EVERY great post player has conviction in there and makes the defense respond to the threat he poses. That is the whole key to the dominance that dominant post players have had throughout history. They break a defense, not by their own scoring, but by making the defense respond to their threat and lose containment on their teammates. It does not require bullying, but the guts to hang in there and fight, yes.

Oh, and BTW, one thing that these discussions reveal is that people have no idea what a great post player looks like, little idea of what makes a great player period, and here is the eye opener, have a much lesser opinion of Spencer Hawes' talent in there than I do. I find it ironic that people will whine about me being tough on Spencer when I am the only one giving him any real credit. Spencer can be a GREAT post player. But he never will be if he is allowed to squander it. And whatever else he may end up being instead, it will be less valuable to his team than being a great post player would be.

I've read your post several times and I'm confused. You say 'Spenser can be a great post player' but you don't seem to be specific as to what he needs to do. Are you saying that he needs to learn to pass out of the double teams better, learn to repost, or score. Which post up talents are you high on, and what does he have to do to show you that he has conviction?
 
I think Bricky's being a little harsh with his descriptive, but in his defense he has also praised Hawes. The irony of this whole discussion is that when Hawes was in college, although for only one year, he played mostly in the post. I don't think he's afraid to go into the post. I think its possible that his confidence may have taken a little hit against some to the better shot blockers.

As has been pointed out, he's only 20 years old and hardly the finished product. I don't have a problem with some outside scoring, and it appears to be part of the teams offensive scheme. It just makes it that much harder to rebound when your farther away from the basket.
 
I've read your post several times and I'm confused. You say 'Spenser can be a great post player' but you don't seem to be specific as to what he needs to do. Are you saying that he needs to learn to pass out of the double teams better, learn to repost, or score. Which post up talents are you high on, and what does he have to do to show you that he has conviction?

Good article in todays Bee about Hawes which may answer some of your questions about his conviction. I'm high on all of Spencers skills in the post. If anything, he sometimes uses more moves than necessary. I think its just a matter of doing it. Like Ken Venturi said, The more I practice, the luckier I get.

I certainly don't think that Spence is afraid. I've followed him since highschool and fear is not in his vocabulary. Over confident at times, maybe. I do think that right now, he's simply trying to take what the defense gives him. Now that might not intimidate anyone, or dominate anyone, but for a 20 yr old, he's further along than some guys that have been in the league for a few years.
 
In order for hawes to develop his post game, his teammates are going to have to reward him with ball when he does get open in the post. I don't see the team doing much of this to date.
 
In order for hawes to develop his post game, his teammates are going to have to reward him with ball when he does get open in the post. I don't see the team doing much of this to date.

This is bullseye.

The team needs to learn how to play the post starring the BIGS ( Hawes and Thompson ) It is a " MUST ADD " play for any team trying to be an elite team.

Whatever the reason why Hawes and Thompson are not getting the ball at the post should be addressed ASAP. Being the future starters of this team, they deserve to have that experience having the ball in their hands at the post. The BIGS are not getting their chance to learn at the post and we need to address this big problem.

Coach Theus?
 
Good article in todays Bee about Hawes which may answer some of your questions about his conviction. I'm high on all of Spencers skills in the post. If anything, he sometimes uses more moves than necessary. I think its just a matter of doing it. Like Ken Venturi said, The more I practice, the luckier I get.

I certainly don't think that Spence is afraid. I've followed him since highschool and fear is not in his vocabulary. Over confident at times, maybe. I do think that right now, he's simply trying to take what the defense gives him. Now that might not intimidate anyone, or dominate anyone, but for a 20 yr old, he's further along than some guys that have been in the league for a few years.

I believe that quote is attributed to Gary Player not Venuri. But, I agree with your earlier post about Hawes playing away from the basket as part of the offensive scheme.

I on the other hand would like to see him occasionally work the hi post while Brad sets up outside. Get Spence some practice working the pick and roll, and making backdoor passes. Also, if he's playing PF with Brad at center, then Hawes should have an advantage in the post, and we should be feeding him on a regular basis. Now, he doesn't have to take a shot every time. When he sees the double team coming, he can always pass to the open man. Either way he needs more practice down low than in taking 3pt shots.
 
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