For sake of arguement....Are our Bigs good enough?

[CaminoChaos]

b. miller - 7'0 ~ 260 lbs
k. thomas - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs
b. skinner - 6'9 ~ 265 lbs
g. ostertag - 7'2 ~ 280 lbs
c. williamson - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs

If you look at our Bigs we have talent.

Miller, Thomas and Williamson all can score and rebound but aren't sufficient enough on the defensive end. They are either too small, not athletic enough, not fast enough or whatever you choose but help offensively.

Skinner and Tag are good help defenders and have the size to defend players of there position but are not the offensive players that Miller, Thomas and Williamson are.

If Tag comes into camp in shape and in condition, Miller lifts some weights and gets stronger and Skin, KT and Nasty have a full training camp do you think that these front court players could do the job?

If we end up keeping everybody next year how about sticking Skinner in the starting role in place of Thomas just for size and shotblocking purposes?

 

[Jose]

That's a lot of big IFs in there...

They didn't get the job done last year (not even close), and our weaknesses were very evident. There's really no reason to think that it would be any different this year.

As far as starting with Skinner and having Thomas come off the bench... Thomas would seem to have a problem with that. Say goodbye to whatever little locker room chemistry may be left.

Jose

b. miller - 7'0 ~ 260 lbs
k. thomas - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs
b. skinner - 6'9 ~ 265 lbs
g. ostertag - 7'2 ~ 280 lbs
c. williamson - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs

If you look at our Bigs we have talent.

Miller, Thomas and Williamson all can score and rebound but aren't sufficient enough on the defensive end. They are either too small, not athletic enough, not fast enough or whatever you choose but help offensively.

Skinner and Tag are good help defenders and have the size to defend players of there position but are not the offensive players that Miller, Thomas and Williamson are.

If Tag comes into camp in shape and in condition, Miller lifts some weights and gets stronger and Skin, KT and Nasty have a full training camp do you think that these front court players could do the job?

If we end up keeping everybody next year how about sticking Skinner in the starting role in place of Thomas just for size and shotblocking purposes?

 

[VF21]

Are our bigs good enough? Depends on what you're defining as "good enough."

First, you list three guys as "bigs" on that list who aren't even as tall as our small forward. That right there should be IMHO a warning signal.

I honestly think Brad Miller was more effective at the 4 than he's been as a center. I'm not that impressed with Kenny Thomas being called a "big." He's much more suited, IMHO, to the SF position (as Brick and others have pointed out many times). Skinner has qualities we can use but just isn't big enough to compete with the real "bigs" at the center position. Ostertag is ... Ostertag. One night he can be just what the doctor ordered, while the next night he looks like a lost lamb or an aging veteran with little stamina and lead feet. Corliss is also more suited to the SF position. He can give the hard foul, he can take a charge, he can do a lot of the things a "big" should be able to do. Unfortunately, what he can't do is grow about 5 inches.

So, to summarize, we have two bigs that are actually more suited to the 3; we have one big that plays better at the 4; and we have one "big" whose heart is bigger than he is.

So, are our "bigs" good enough isn't really the right question. I think it should be:

Do we have the right "bigs" in the right slots?

And to that question, unfortunately, there is only one answer: No.

 

[VF21]

As far as starting with Skinner and having Thomas come off the bench... Thomas would seem to have a problem with that. Say goodbye to whatever little locker room chemistry may be left.

That's been one of my main concerns about Thomas from the beginning when he first complained about playing time.

If he can't put the needs of the team first, then we need to put him on a plane out of town. He's not THAT critical to the future development of the Sacramento Kings IMHO.

 

[Jerryaki]

Skinner at the 4 is an interesting idea, one that I'd like to see explored. With a rotation of say, Swift at the 5 and miller at the 4 (or vice versa, I guess, though I like miller at the 4), and an in-shape Tag and Skinner backing that up, I think I'd feel more comfortable than the rotation we had this year.

 

[CaminoChaos]

They didn't get the job done last year (not even close), and our weaknesses were very evident. There's really no reason to think that it would be any different this year.

People forget that the only practice the team ever got was in the games. I think after a WHOLE training camp the offense and defensive chemistry would be leaps and bounds better the 20 or so games last year.

Please don't get me wrong. If we can score a prototypical PF, 6'10 - 7'0 shotblocker/defender/rebounder/low post scorer thats great but lets face it, players with that size and skill aren't going to come cheap unless it's a Rookie(most likely undrafted like Randolph Morris) or bench warmer(from a team that has a boat load of players at that position like David Harrison or Milicic).

So basically we have to except what we have unless we can get rid of a 6'7 PF with a loooooong contract in exchange for a dominant defensive PF . We aren't going to attract to many bigs with the MLE and still sign Mo(like many of you suggest) especially if players like Adonal Foyle are getting max deals for over $40 million dollars from teams who are under the Cap.

 

[VF21]

Camino - You asked specifically if our bigs are good enough. I'm not forgetting the team never was able to really put in some good practices together. Unfortunately, that won't change the basic problem. Practice won't make these guys taller.

It's not about accepting what we have, IMHO. It's about looking for ways to make the team better.

It's up to Geoff Petrie to find a way to solve several problems this team has: one is the lack of "big" bigs; another is the lack of anyone with a real defensive mindset.

It's not a question of what the team needs. It's a question of whether or not Petrie will be able to resolve those needs - either this year or in the foreseeable future. If it was easy to figure out how to solve those problems, any one could do it. Geoff Petrie is respected throughout the league because he has a proven track record of being able to find ways to make his team better...and that's why he gets the BIG bucks.

 

[funsc]

Size might not be key issure
Suns had no real big men last season but finishing with the best
Detroit can beat Miami with biggest man (not 100% though) in G7
Kings need some good players with more skills and toughness, especially on the defensive end

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I think KT has the heart of a champion and there's absolutely no reason to ever talk about giving him up for...now, with that being said, I like the idea of maybe moving Peja to SG, even with drafting Garcia, and then bouncing KT down to SF where he would be more suited, size-wise.

 

[D-Mass]

b. miller - 7'0 ~ 260 lbs
k. thomas - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs
b. skinner - 6'9 ~ 265 lbs
g. ostertag - 7'2 ~ 280 lbs
c. williamson - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs

If you look at our Bigs we have talent.

Miller, Thomas and Williamson all can score and rebound but aren't sufficient enough on the defensive end. They are either too small, not athletic enough, not fast enough or whatever you choose but help offensively.

Skinner and Tag are good help defenders and have the size to defend players of there position but are not the offensive players that Miller, Thomas and Williamson are.

If Tag comes into camp in shape and in condition, Miller lifts some weights and gets stronger and Skin, KT and Nasty have a full training camp do you think that these front court players could do the job?

If we end up keeping everybody next year how about sticking Skinner in the starting role in place of Thomas just for size and shotblocking purposes?

Nope....not good enough. However, they wouldn't look quite as bad defensively if they weren't always having to help off of their man to stop the penetration from guards who walked right around Bibby, Stojakovic, and Mobley.

Miller has trouble moving and can't jump...weight training will only go so far with that. We need his high post jumper, though.

Thomas is a good athlete and showed some shooting touch, but presents a matchup problem for us.

Skinner never really played well after his "honeymoon period"...can we RELY on his potential to block shots?

And Ostertag...I like the guy, but how "in shape" can we really expect him to get? Has he set any sort of precedent in his career that shows he will be able to do it AND maintain it?

Corliss brings a great attitude and he fights hard. Regardless of the liability in certain areas, a guy like that on your bench is nice to have.

Bottom line, we need help and hopefully Petrie will pull his weight in that regard. It will take some time, though.

 

[Bricklayer]

The answer would of course be "no". Were never good enough before coming to Sacto. Certainly aren't contending team worthy now that they are here. Its a bad thing when Corliss is listed as a "big", because nickname aside, he's not and is a disaster in waiting when you put him at PF or C ( ).


Your best shot with that crew is a strict Miller/Thomas backed up by Tag/Skinner rotation. No Corliss, no Darius, no Peja, no screwing around. Offensive starters and defensive backups. And if you actually played that strict rotation (which Rick will not) you are still at very best average and have the worst (or second worst -- Atlanta) defensive frontline starters in the league. While our system should help Kenny's numbers (to that degree I agree with Geoff's scary assessment that KT could do well in our system), you still have a too small PF who is a lower echelon starter at best. You still have an effectively too small C (in the way he plays) to pair him with. And your best post presence is Brian Skinner, who you are just about never going to throw the ball into on purpose to run set plays through. It is a frontline that excels at one thing -- shooting jumpers (surprise!).

At this point very little would surprise me, but settling for that frontline would be a sign of incredible lack of ambition -- you can be a decent team with those guys, maybe even a playoff team with the right teammates. But you're never going to be a serious contender, never going to be prepared for the sort of physical wars the Duncans, Wallaces, Shaqs, Amares etc. are waging every year in the playoffs, and every single night you are going to be worried whether the other team's big men are going to go off against you. And its not like they are getting better at their ages. And its not like they can suddenly change physically into soemthing that they are not.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Um, our "bigs" aren't even big enough.

As to whether or not they're good enough -- there's some talent there, individually, and the possibility to impress in the right system on the right team with the right players surrounding them. But all together as the team's entire front line? Just a big ol' pile of unimpressive.

 

[Jose]

I think KT has the heart of a champion and there's absolutely no reason to ever talk about giving him up for...now, with that being said, I like the idea of maybe moving Peja to SG, even with drafting Garcia, and then bouncing KT down to SF where he would be more suited, size-wise.

Can you imagine Peja trying to keep up with the likes of Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili??

 

[CaminoChaos]

Can you imagine Peja trying to keep up with the likes of Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili??

Can you imagine Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili trying to cover Peja.

We all saw Peja contain T-mac and he is better offensively then all three of those guys. I wish Peja had a post up game.

 

[Bricklayer]

Can you imagine Rip Hamilton, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili trying to cover Peja.

We all saw Peja contain T-mac and he is better offensively then all three of those guys. I wish Peja had a post up game.

Actually, a major problem with Peja as shooting guard is that smaller players are exactly the ones who cause him inordinate amounts of trouble because they can stay with him and he doesn't have the one on one moves or post game to shake them or punsih them down low. Manu and Rip could certainly guard him. Ray isn't a great defender, so maybe not so much there.


On the positive side, Peja does a better job against quick players on defense than people give him credit for (normaly just by backing off a step or two), but its nto something I would actually wnt to see on a regular basis.

 

[malcolm_m03]

I say get rid of all of them except Miller and Tag, no offense to thomas skinner and corliss, but to me their just too short to be playing the PF positions, that's just my opinion. And miller is a good center and i think with tag's size and what i hear he's been doing this summer i think we should keep em.

 

[Warhawk]

I honestly think Brad Miller was more effective at the 4 than he's been as a center. I'm not that impressed with Kenny Thomas being called a "big." He's much more suited, IMHO, to the SF position (as Brick and others have pointed out many times). Skinner has qualities we can use but just isn't big enough to compete with the real "bigs" at the center position. Ostertag is ... Ostertag. One night he can be just what the doctor ordered, while the next night he looks like a lost lamb or an aging veteran with little stamina and lead feet. Corliss is also more suited to the SF position. He can give the hard foul, he can take a charge, he can do a lot of the things a "big" should be able to do. Unfortunately, what he can't do is grow about 5 inches.

So, to summarize, we have two bigs that are actually more suited to the 3; we have one big that plays better at the 4; and we have one "big" whose heart is bigger than he is.

So, are our "bigs" good enough isn't really the right question. I think it should be:

Do we have the right "bigs" in the right slots?

And to that question, unfortunately, there is only one answer: No.

Exactly - I think Skinner/Darius at the 4 (with Brad starting) and someone new (athletic rebounder) as the starting C with O-Tag (and maybe Miller as well) as backups would be the best reasonable combo this season. We have way too many guys at SF size playing PF and a 6'10" SF who cannot play bigger than the slot he is in. We need to, ahem, exchange a couple of guys like Nasty and KT for a new C. I like what they bring, but we have a glut of guys that are SF size. We have enough backcourt guys now as long as we can get Mo back. If we trade 2 of the 6'7" size guys (for example) for a new servicable 6'10'" to 7' true C or find one in summer camp, etc, we will be in a much better position to compete.

IMHO, of course.

 

[loopymitch]

In a word "no"

 

[sidney]

b. miller - 7'0 ~ 260 lbs
k. thomas - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs
b. skinner - 6'9 ~ 265 lbs
g. ostertag - 7'2 ~ 280 lbs
c. williamson - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs

If you look at our Bigs we have talent.

Miller, Thomas and Williamson all can score and rebound but aren't sufficient enough on the defensive end. They are either too small, not athletic enough, not fast enough or whatever you choose but help offensively.

Skinner and Tag are good help defenders and have the size to defend players of there position but are not the offensive players that Miller, Thomas and Williamson are.

If Tag comes into camp in shape and in condition, Miller lifts some weights and gets stronger and Skin, KT and Nasty have a full training camp do you think that these front court players could do the job?

If we end up keeping everybody next year how about sticking Skinner in the starting role in place of Thomas just for size and shotblocking purposes?

I don't think so, however we are pretty much 1 guy away from having good size. If we can do a K. Thomas for Kwame B trade or a sign and trade Mobley for Nene/filler, we will be adding a 6'11" guy in place of a 6'7" guy. All of a sudden our starting front court is all 6'10" and over. Yes, there are questions about these young guys, but if we keep the core that might be the best we can get.

 

[NewMonkey]

I don't think so, however we are pretty much 1 guy away from having good size. If we can do a K. Thomas for Kwame B trade or a sign and trade Mobley for Nene/filler, we will be adding a 6'11" guy in place of a 6'7" guy. All of a sudden our starting front court is all 6'10" and over. Yes, there are questions about these young guys, but if we keep the core that might be the best we can get.

There's been a lot of talk about Nene. Nene does have size and people think he has potential, but he's been in the league three years and he rebounds about as well as 6'7" Kenny Thomas and has never averaged even a block per game. Nene might be marginally better than the guys we have, but I'm not sure he's the answer.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't think so, however we are pretty much 1 guy away from having good size. If we can do a K. Thomas for Kwame B trade or a sign and trade Mobley for Nene/filler, we will be adding a 6'11" guy in place of a 6'7" guy. All of a sudden our starting front court is all 6'10" and over. Yes, there are questions about these young guys, but if we keep the core that might be the best we can get.

You know what I would like to see? And this has been covered elsewhere and I don't want to derail the thread, but nonetheless: assuming Brad is coming back, I would like to see us keep Skinner and MAYBE Tag (he might not play and could be a useful ending contract trading chip), swap out ALL of the other parts, and somehow get our hands on any two of the following: Nene, Brown, Griffin, Darko, Swift, Gadzuric, Evans, Chandler. Any two. Much like the OG spot where I would be uncomfortable with one young guy, but maybe if you have two SOMEBODY works out, go get two new bigs. It adds insurance, and with most of those names would give you such a burst of youth/athleticism etc. that it could entirely change the mentality and entire tone of the frontline. No more smallball. Easier said than done of course, but within the realm of possibility if a good GM really put his mind to it.

 

[sidney]

There's been a lot of talk about Nene. Nene does have size and people think he has potential, but he's been in the league three years and he rebounds about as well as 6'7" Kenny Thomas and has never averaged even a block per game. Nene might be marginally better than the guys we have, but I'm not sure he's the answer.

I'm not sure either, but at least he's young, big, has a good chance to improve, somewhat realistic for us to get, etc. All those things seem more promising than the small, but consistent K Thomas. I actually like Thomas and would want him to stay if we had a big time rebounding/defensive center.

 

[sidney]

You know what I would like to see? And this has been covered elsewhere and I don't want to derail the thread, but nonetheless: assuming Brad is coming back, I would like to see us keep Skinner and MAYBE Tag (he might not play and could be a useful ending contract trading chip), swap out ALL of the other parts, and somehow get our hands on any two of the following: Nene, Brown, Griffin, Darko, Swift, Gadzuric, Evans, Chandler. Any two. Much like the OG spot where I would be uncomfortable with one young guy, but maybe if you have two SOMEBODY works out, go get two new bigs. It adds insurance, and with most of those names would give you such a burst of youth/athleticism etc. that it could entirely change the mentality and entire tone of the frontline. No more smallball. Easier said than done of course, but within the realm of possibility if a good GM really put his mind to it.

Now that is a good idea. If we can't land a star because we don't want to trade the core, let's get a couple potential young stars and see if something pans out. At least those guys have a chance with their size. Which coach was is that said, "You can't teach height"?

 

[Warhawk]

I'm not sure either, but at least he's young, big, has a good chance to improve, somewhat realistic for us to get, etc. All those things seem more promising than the small, but consistent K Thomas. I actually like Thomas and would want him to stay if we has a big time rebounding/defensive center.

I'd like him as a SF, but we already have one of those we seem to want to keep and I do not see KT happy in a backup role.

 

[Superman]

You know what I would like to see? And this has been covered elsewhere and I don't want to derail the thread, but nonetheless: assuming Brad is coming back, I would like to see us keep Skinner and MAYBE Tag (he might not play and could be a useful ending contract trading chip), swap out ALL of the other parts, and somehow get our hands on any two of the following: Nene, Brown, Griffin, Darko, Swift, Gadzuric, Evans, Chandler. Any two. Much like the OG spot where I would be uncomfortable with one young guy, but maybe if you have two SOMEBODY works out, go get two new bigs. It adds insurance, and with most of those names would give you such a burst of youth/athleticism etc. that it could entirely change the mentality and entire tone of the frontline. No more smallball. Easier said than done of course, but within the realm of possibility if a good GM really put his mind to it.

What a thought.

And with all of these "might be good but not proven yet" big guys available this summer, we might have a chance to get a couple of them. The best, most proven player on that list is probably Eddie Griffin, and he's probably considered untouchable by half the teams in the League. I'd really like to see Stro and Kwame playing for the Kings, and if we keep Brad and Skinner (not need to keep 'Tag, imo), we'd have a nice rotation at the 4 and 5.

We can use Songaila, Thomas and Williamson to try and make some of that happen. We'd have a nice core (Mike, Peja, Brad, Stro, Kwame, etc.), and room to build up from there. And wouldn't a player like Gerald Wallace fit nicely into that lineup? We'd be so athletic at the 3 and 4 spots off the bench. I don't even want to think about it.

 

[sidney]

I'd like him as a SF, but we already have one of those we seem to want to keep and I do not see KT happy in a backup role.

Kenny at SF would be interesting, but I agree that would only happen if Peja was moved for a big. Not to mention he is WAY too expensive for a backup. Kenny is no wallflower - solid rebounder and and good enough scorer that he can't be left alone. Seems more likely that he's part of possible trade packages though. I might have missed it, but I haven't heard Adelman or Petrie talk about Thomas AT ALL when discussing next year.

 

[Superman]

Kenny is probably gone -- I think we accepted his contract just to make the Webber deal work, knowing full well they were planning on moving him this summer.

Offensively, he'd work as a small forward, but on defense, he doesn't fit anywhere. He can't guard perimeter-oriented small forwards, and he can't guard back-to-the-basket power forwards. He's either too slow or too small.

He'd be an intriguing option off the bench as he's a good rebounder, can score and he plays hard, but not for $6 million a year.

 

[Gary]

Who would you keep on the group if you were building a team?

b. miller - 7'0 ~ 260 lbs - YES
k. thomas - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs - NO
b. skinner - 6'9 ~ 265 lbs - MAYBE
g. ostertag - 7'2 ~ 280 lbs - MAYBE
c. williamson - 6'7 ~ 245 lbs - MAYBE

Definitely keep Miller. As for Thomas, we need to package this guy with another big man to get someone that can play some D, and can give us 10-10 a night. Wont demand the ball, and wont make careless mistakes.

Stromile Swift is probally the name that pops up most, but I don't think he would help our rebounding numbers as much as I would want.

The ultimate PF I would like to see in a Kings uni is ELTON BRAND. Lets give this guy a chance to play for a winner and see what he can do.

 

[Superman]

Too bad Elton Brand is the only player Donald T. Sterling has ever payed out for, and probably the only player he'd never move.

Tyson Chandler or Kwame Brown, on the other hand, would work out quite nicely here at power forward.

 

[SDKing]

Tyson Chandler or Kwame Brown, on the other hand, would work out quite nicely here at power forward.

I'd also like to see tyson chandler get a shot. Or get a new center and move Brad to PF.