Expectations of Kings' defense, 2021-22

#1
Looks like the Kings' Opening Day roster is pretty much set. What re your expectations of them defensively this coming season?

We know that the Kings had a "historically bad" defense last season. For the season they ranked dead last, w/a defensive rating of 116.5 (linked). But that's highly misleading: the team they ended the year with was far from the team they started with.

In the 36 games before the All-Star Game, they were not only last, but last by a wide margin (119.1 vs. 116.3 for the next-worst Pelicans). That was the historically-bad bit. But in the 36 games after the ASG they were 23rd of 30 teams in DEFRTG - not great, but a significant improvement. And in the last 10 games of the season the Kings ranked.... FIRST (105.3)!

No big mystery as to the why of these changes. Shortly after the ASG they traded out some guys and acquired Wright, Davis, and Harkless; and then down the stretch when almost the entire starting lineup was lost to injury or COVID protocols the more defense-minded bench guys played HARD. It's also true that once Walton acquired bench guys he felt comfortable playing - or was ordered to play - some of the starters (HB, Fox) were a bit less apt to get ground down and THEY could play harder.

All to say that IMO the appropriate baseline for our expectations of the 2021-22 defensively isn't the "historically bad defense" they were pre-ASG last year or the "worst defensive team" they were over the course of the season. It's the 23rd ranked team they were after the ASG.

To *that* team they've added Davion Mitchell, TThompson, ALen, and Doug Christie. W/luck, the Metu we saw at the Olympics and in Summer League will transfer, and I think we'll see a better version of Mo Harkless than the one we saw last year. They may yet add King, which would also be a defensive plus. Fox and Haliburton have said all the right things in terms of stepping up their defensive games - and I have zero doubt that Ty, in particular, will make every effort. (We've all heard about the 9 lbs of muscle he packed on already in the offseason.) AND this team will be deep, meaning there'll be no need for anyone to coast.

The only meaningful loss from last year's team in re defense is Wright.

IMO, the implications of all the above in terms of defensive skills, toughness, leadership, emphasis, and culture is potentially profound. My expectation is NO WORSE than a middle-of-the road defensive team (~14-16). My real expectation is 10-13 or so.

What's yours?
 
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#2
Looks like the Kings' Opening Day roster is pretty much set. What re your expectations of them defensively this coming season?

We know that the Kings had a "historically bad" defense last season. For the season they ranked dead last, w/a defensive rating of 116.5 (linked). But that's highly misleading: the team they ended the year with was far from the team they started with.

In the 36 games before the All-Star Game, they were not only last, but last by a wide margin (119.1 vs. 116.3 for the next-worst Pelicans). That was the historically-bad bit. But in the 36 games after the ASG they were 23rd of 30 teams in DEFRTG - not great, but a significant improvement. And in the last 10 games of the season the Kings ranked.... FIRST (105.3)!

No big mystery as to the why of these changes. Shortly after the ASG they traded out some guys and acquired Wright, Davis, and Harkless; and then down the stretch when almost the entire starting lineup was lost to injury or COVID protocols the more defense-minded bench guys played HARD. It's also true that once Walton acquired bench guys he felt comfortable playing - or was ordered to play - some of the starters (HB, Fox) were a bit less apt to get ground down and THEY could play harder.

All to say that IMO the appropriate baseline for our expectations of the 2021-22 defensively isn't the "historically bad defense" they were pre-ASG last year or the "worst defensive team" they were over the course of the season. It's the 23rd ranked team they were after the ASG.

To *that* team they've added Davion Mitchell, TThompson, ALen, and Doug Christie. W/luck, the Metu we saw at the Olympics and in Summer League will transfer, and I think we'll see a better version of Mo Harkless than the one we saw last year. They may yet add King, which would also be a defensive plus. Fox and Haliburton have said all the right things in terms of stepping up their defensive games - and I have zero doubt that Ty, in particular, will make every effort. (We've all heard about his 9 lbs of muscle he packed on already in the offseason.) AND this team will be deep, meaning there'll be no need for anyone to coast.

The only meaningful "loss" from last year's team in re defense is Wright.

IMO, the implications of all the above in terms of defensive skills, toughness, leadership, emphasis, and culture is potentially profound. My expectation is NO WORSE than a middle-of-the road defensive team (~14-16). My real expectation is 10-13 or so.

What's yours?
I think the defense will improve, but think you're missing the most important person: Fox. The defensive numbers is a byproduct of the team's pace. If Fox slows his game down a bit, focuses on defense more, a middle of the road defensive team is more than possible. If he continues to boat race, the Kings will be in the 20s, maybe bottom 5 even.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#4
Man, if the opening rotation is

Fox
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Holmes

We’re still going to be awful no matter what Davion does. He’s going to come off the bench to 20 point deficits because that team isn’t defending anyone.

Still hoping for lots of Buddy / Bagley / (distant third) Barnes trades to go down.
 
#5
Man, if the opening rotation is

Fox
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Holmes

We’re still going to be awful no matter what Davion does. He’s going to come off the bench to 20 point deficits because that team isn’t defending anyone.

Still hoping for lots of Buddy / Bagley / (distant third) Barnes trades to go down.
Why though, when a lot of this board/fanbase think that Hali has great defensive IQ, Fox can be one of the best two way players, Holmes is a plus defender on non-Embiids, and Barnes at worst average?
 
#6
Man, if the opening rotation is

Fox
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Holmes

We’re still going to be awful no matter what Davion does. He’s going to come off the bench to 20 point deficits because that team isn’t defending anyone.

Still hoping for lots of Buddy / Bagley / (distant third) Barnes trades to go down.
That is a great offensive lineup though. 404 minutes last season which is the 9th most used lineup in the entire league. +7.6 net rating.

It can't defend anyone but it can outscore anyone. I would not start with that still. It is just a horrible defensive rebounding team.

I expect Fox, Hield, Barnes, Bagley and Holmes starting lineup.
 
#7
Its all on Fox imo. If he plays at least solid defense most of the time we can make the play in as the 10th seed

definitely cautiously excited about this upcoming season though. Past few seasons I had to trick myself into thinking it could be a good outcome lol
 
#9
Man, if the opening rotation is

Fox
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Holmes

We’re still going to be awful no matter what Davion does. He’s going to come off the bench to 20 point deficits because that team isn’t defending anyone.

Still hoping for lots of Buddy / Bagley / (distant third) Barnes trades to go down.
Except for the fact that unit was like a top 10 5 man combo in net rating (maybe 13th?) And was frankly a dominant offensive unit. We need to play that unit more, not less
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#12
Except for the fact that unit was like a top 10 5 man combo in net rating (maybe 13th?) And was frankly a dominant offensive unit. We need to play that unit more, not less
Could be fun to watch our starters and bench mob attack teams with offense and then defense. Call it the old Jeckyll and Hyde.
 
#13
Could be fun to watch our starters and bench mob attack teams with offense and then defense. Call it the old Jeckyll and Hyde.
Yeah, the goal is to find more than 2 units that maintain playoff level performance. And with the depth changes from:

CoJo
Hali rookie
GRob III
Bjelica
Whiteside

Mitchell
Hali Year 2 (if we assume Walton keeps the same starters, although he really shouldn't)
TD with a training camp || King
Harkless with a training camp || Metu
Len || TT

We went from times last year that we couldn't find a 7th man to play productive minutes to now probably being too deep with 8 guys that should get minutes. And pretty significant upgrades defensively across the board with the second unit.

After the Mitchell showing especially, I'm expecting this team to compete for an 8 seed. Too much depth, with potential upside arcs of Fox/Hali/Bagley and if Mitchell can be impactful from the jump. No excuses for Walton really.
 
#14
Yeah, the goal is to find more than 2 units that maintain playoff level performance. And with the depth changes from:

CoJo
Hali rookie
GRob III
Bjelica
Whiteside

Mitchell
Hali Year 2 (if we assume Walton keeps the same starters, although he really shouldn't)
TD with a training camp || King
Harkless with a training camp || Metu
Len || TT

We went from times last year that we couldn't find a 7th man to play productive minutes to now probably being too deep with 8 guys that should get minutes. And pretty significant upgrades defensively across the board with the second unit.

After the Mitchell showing especially, I'm expecting this team to compete for an 8 seed. Too much depth, with potential upside arcs of Fox/Hali and if Mitchell can be impactful from the jump. No excuses for Walton really.
fixed :p
 
#15
I think the defense will improve, but think you're missing the most important person: Fox. The defensive numbers is a byproduct of the team's pace. If Fox slows his game down a bit, focuses on defense more, a middle of the road defensive team is more than possible. If he continues to boat race, the Kings will be in the 20s, maybe bottom 5 even.
Also Fox’s focus. While it isn’t the be all, Fox’s defensive rating was pretty poor.
 
#17
Yeah, the goal is to find more than 2 units that maintain playoff level performance. And with the depth changes from:

CoJo
Hali rookie
GRob III
Bjelica
Whiteside

Mitchell
Hali Year 2 (if we assume Walton keeps the same starters, although he really shouldn't)
TD with a training camp || King
Harkless with a training camp || Metu
Len || TT

We went from times last year that we couldn't find a 7th man to play productive minutes to now probably being too deep with 8 guys that should get minutes. And pretty significant upgrades defensively across the board with the second unit.

After the Mitchell showing especially, I'm expecting this team to compete for an 8 seed. Too much depth, with potential upside arcs of Fox/Hali/Bagley and if Mitchell can be impactful from the jump. No excuses for Walton really.
the problem is our wing defense. Barnes is our best wing defender and he isn’t a defensive stopper.
 
#18
the problem is our wing defense. Barnes is our best wing defender and he isn’t a defensive stopper.
Yeah, that's probably the biggest weakpoint on the team. A lot of hope that TD can defend up and regain his rookie defensive form and on Harkless. I think King can eventually get there too, but I doubt Walton gets him in the rotation day 1.

The good news is there really aren't many dominant big wings in the NBA. There just aren't many big wings in the NBA period, which makes King all the more interesting if he continues to develop. Sure, LeBron, Kawhi, PG. Khris Middleton, Jimmy Butler. MPJ, OG and Bridges could all take a leap next season, but aren't dominant offensive weapons yet. But afer that? Whole lotta nothing. Now, you need to be able to defend those top 5 to really make noise in the playoffs, but I can see why we'd feel we can get away with a smaller 3 vs a vast majority of the NBA. Improving the guard defense (Fox/Hali needing to make a leap, Mitchell being impactful day 1), is more important I think than plugging a wing defender.
 
#19
Also Fox’s focus. While it isn’t the be all, Fox’s defensive rating was pretty poor.
We all know Fox has the tools to be an elite defender. Quick twitch, fast, and long. So it has been and always will be focus with him. My projection has always been it'll take Fox another three years for that side of the ball to truly click for him. Hopefully Off-Night accelerates that time table. Don't think Fox will like getting pestered each practice. Hoping he'll dish it back and that it'll translate over into games.
 
#20
We all know Fox has the tools to be an elite defender. Quick twitch, fast, and long. So it has been and always will be focus with him. My projection has always been it'll take Fox another three years for that side of the ball to truly click for him. Hopefully Off-Night accelerates that time table. Don't think Fox will like getting pestered each practice. Hoping he'll dish it back and that it'll translate over into games.
he’s gonna have to learn to take it to grow as a player. It’s tough being a pro, nut up or get out of the way
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#21
I think with Fox’s defense (or lack thereof) it’s all about energy conservation. He’s having to shoulder a huge load on offense, and his play style of beating people with speed has to be taxing. We’ve seen him play great defense, but it’s usually just a few crucial plays and then he goes back to being lax.

Fox needs to learn a good middle ground. I think with Davion looking legit, all of our guards can play in the low 30s and bring it all game too.

Wouldn’t hurt if we had a coach with a brain either, because with all the offensive talent on this team, Fox shouldn’t NEED to go all out on that side of the court. Just ends up that way a lot.
 
#22
In the end it all comes down to net rating. If you're pumping up the defense but losing the same amount on offense to defend better, then you're just spinning your tires.

If Fox, Hali, Buddy, Barnes and Holmes is a positive net rating lineup, then run with it. Maybe Mitchell, TD, King, Harkless and Len will be a positive net rating lineup for the opposite reasons. It basically just comes down to balance and playing the right guys with each other to maximize the impact on the court. Walton gets paid the big bucks to do that but I don't have faith that he will be able to maximize anything other than losses at this point.
 
#23
Yeah, that's probably the biggest weakpoint on the team. A lot of hope that TD can defend up and regain his rookie defensive form and on Harkless. I think King can eventually get there too, but I doubt Walton gets him in the rotation day 1.

The good news is there really aren't many dominant big wings in the NBA. There just aren't many big wings in the NBA period, which makes King all the more interesting if he continues to develop. Sure, LeBron, Kawhi, PG. Khris Middleton, Jimmy Butler. MPJ, OG and Bridges could all take a leap next season, but aren't dominant offensive weapons yet. But afer that? Whole lotta nothing. Now, you need to be able to defend those top 5 to really make noise in the playoffs, but I can see why we'd feel we can get away with a smaller 3 vs a vast majority of the NBA. Improving the guard defense (Fox/Hali needing to make a leap, Mitchell being impactful day 1), is more important I think than plugging a wing defender.
The issue is still the size difference on run outs and in the paint on penetration and backdoors. Plus when teams force the Kings to switch. The Kings guard lineups were completely unable to contest bigger players outside, and weren't big enough to help over in the paint. Walton better try running what Bobby/DC did in SL. That pressure and closing space individually is their only shot. They are sitting ducks inside and out otherwise and we saw it last year when they tried to play box and 1, zone, or help against teams willing to draw and kick. Make every pass tough, and every iso move a nightmare for opposing teams. If they get behind you, oh well, you made them work for it at least.
 
#24
We all know Fox has the tools to be an elite defender. Quick twitch, fast, and long. So it has been and always will be focus with him. My projection has always been it'll take Fox another three years for that side of the ball to truly click for him. Hopefully Off-Night accelerates that time table. Don't think Fox will like getting pestered each practice. Hoping he'll dish it back and that it'll translate over into games.
By switching to ball pressure it will take Fox into an area where those natural abilities become an asset.
 
#25
In the end it all comes down to net rating. If you're pumping up the defense but losing the same amount on offense to defend better, then you're just spinning your tires.

If Fox, Hali, Buddy, Barnes and Holmes is a positive net rating lineup, then run with it. Maybe Mitchell, TD, King, Harkless and Len will be a positive net rating lineup for the opposite reasons. It basically just comes down to balance and playing the right guys with each other to maximize the impact on the court. Walton gets paid the big bucks to do that but I don't have faith that he will be able to maximize anything other than losses at this point.
Very true. The concern is the net rating lineups were clear last year but as soon as the death lineup faltered slightly Walton couldn't wait to put Haliburton back on the bench so he could insert Harkless. HE has to change. Nothing more, nothing less. He hasn't up to this point in his career so his rope better be accordingly short.
 
#27
Yeah, that's probably the biggest weakpoint on the team. A lot of hope that TD can defend up and regain his rookie defensive form and on Harkless. I think King can eventually get there too, but I doubt Walton gets him in the rotation day 1.

The good news is there really aren't many dominant big wings in the NBA. There just aren't many big wings in the NBA period, which makes King all the more interesting if he continues to develop. Sure, LeBron, Kawhi, PG. Khris Middleton, Jimmy Butler. MPJ, OG and Bridges could all take a leap next season, but aren't dominant offensive weapons yet. But afer that? Whole lotta nothing. Now, you need to be able to defend those top 5 to really make noise in the playoffs, but I can see why we'd feel we can get away with a smaller 3 vs a vast majority of the NBA. Improving the guard defense (Fox/Hali needing to make a leap, Mitchell being impactful day 1), is more important I think than plugging a wing defender.
not sure I’m following but I would say in the west:
LeBron, Kawhi, PG, ingram and Luka are now. KD, Butler, Tatum, Middleton now in the east.

could be west:
M Porter, Bridges, Kuminga

could be East
OG, Cade, Barnes,

the problem we have is so many are in our division and we really have no answer
 
#28
Very true. The concern is the net rating lineups were clear last year but as soon as the death lineup faltered slightly Walton couldn't wait to put Haliburton back on the bench so he could insert Harkless. HE has to change. Nothing more, nothing less. He hasn't up to this point in his career so his rope better be accordingly short.
it’s not Luke’s fault we are getting our ass kicked on the wing.
 
#29
Looks like the Kings' Opening Day roster is pretty much set. What re your expectations of them defensively this coming season?

We know that the Kings had a "historically bad" defense last season. For the season they ranked dead last, w/a defensive rating of 116.5 (linked). But that's highly misleading: the team they ended the year with was far from the team they started with.

In the 36 games before the All-Star Game, they were not only last, but last by a wide margin (119.1 vs. 116.3 for the next-worst Pelicans). That was the historically-bad bit. But in the 36 games after the ASG they were 23rd of 30 teams in DEFRTG - not great, but a significant improvement. And in the last 10 games of the season the Kings ranked.... FIRST (105.3)!

No big mystery as to the why of these changes. Shortly after the ASG they traded out some guys and acquired Wright, Davis, and Harkless; and then down the stretch when almost the entire starting lineup was lost to injury or COVID protocols the more defense-minded bench guys played HARD. It's also true that once Walton acquired bench guys he felt comfortable playing - or was ordered to play - some of the starters (HB, Fox) were a bit less apt to get ground down and THEY could play harder.

All to say that IMO the appropriate baseline for our expectations of the 2021-22 defensively isn't the "historically bad defense" they were pre-ASG last year or the "worst defensive team" they were over the course of the season. It's the 23rd ranked team they were after the ASG.

To *that* team they've added Davion Mitchell, TThompson, ALen, and Doug Christie. W/luck, the Metu we saw at the Olympics and in Summer League will transfer, and I think we'll see a better version of Mo Harkless than the one we saw last year. They may yet add King, which would also be a defensive plus. Fox and Haliburton have said all the right things in terms of stepping up their defensive games - and I have zero doubt that Ty, in particular, will make every effort. (We've all heard about his 9 lbs of muscle he packed on already in the offseason.) AND this team will be deep, meaning there'll be no need for anyone to coast.

The only meaningful "loss" from last year's team in re defense is Wright.

IMO, the implications of all the above in terms of defensive skills, toughness, leadership, emphasis, and culture is potentially profound. My expectation is NO WORSE than a middle-of-the road defensive team (~14-16). My real expectation is 10-13 or so.

What's yours?
Good research. I think the uptick in defense after the ASG makes sense with the additions of Wright, Harkless and Jones. But I think the best defensive rating in the last 10 games thing was a bit of fools gold. They played the Thunder multiple times, as well as some injury riddled teams and some teams resting their starters that were basically fielding G League units.

They went 6-4 in those games but 3 of those wins were against the Thunder, one was against an injury filled Pacers team and 2 were legit wins against the Lakers and the Mavericks, who they owned all year for some reason. Balance that part of the schedule out a bit and the Kings are more than likely their usual 4-6 self because they just didn't have the talent or coach to do much better.

I'd be ecstatic if they could wind up with the 10th best offense and 20th best defense this year. 10-13th is pretty optimistic but it's not out of the realm of possibility with the defenders that have been acquired. Most of our big minute players are all average to well below average players so I think to get to where you're looking at them to be, it's going to take a big culture change from Davion, BJax and Christie. I can't see how the NBA guys couldn't have been inspired by what those guys did in SL so it'll be interesting to see if they really want to win and catch on to it or if they're just happy being comfortable and collecting paychecks.
 
#30
Good research. I think the uptick in defense after the ASG makes sense with the additions of Wright, Harkless and Jones. But I think the best defensive rating in the last 10 games thing was a bit of fools gold. They played the Thunder multiple times, as well as some injury riddled teams and some teams resting their starters that were basically fielding G League units.

They went 6-4 in those games but 3 of those wins were against the Thunder, one was against an injury filled Pacers team and 2 were legit wins against the Lakers and the Mavericks, who they owned all year for some reason. Balance that part of the schedule out a bit and the Kings are more than likely their usual 4-6 self because they just didn't have the talent or coach to do much better.

I'd be ecstatic if they could wind up with the 10th best offense and 20th best defense this year. 10-13th is pretty optimistic but it's not out of the realm of possibility with the defenders that have been acquired. Most of our big minute players are all average to well below average players so I think to get to where you're looking at them to be, it's going to take a big culture change from Davion, BJax and Christie. I can't see how the NBA guys couldn't have been inspired by what those guys did in SL so it'll be interesting to see if they really want to win and catch on to it or if they're just happy being comfortable and collecting paychecks.
Defense is probably 30-40% scheme, 60-70% effort. I really think they'll bring MUCH better effort this year - and probably better schemes as well. Christie at least gives us a chance on the latter front. And on the player front, the culture change isn't just about Davion. Thompson and Len will both bring effort and leadership on that end. Davion, Thompson, Len, Harkless, and Davis are all guys - four of them likely rotation guys - known for being hard-nosed, defense-first.

Nothing is guaranteed, but I'm genuinely surprised expectations are so low here. The most *optimistic* take I've seen is that if all goes well the Kings will compete for the #8-seed. Pshaw.

I look forward to celebrating with you all when they rise above your expectations!

:)
 
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