ESPN ranks Swipa 6th in top players under-25 rankings

#61
You would think so, but I was duped by Tyreke averaging 20/5/5 his rookie year. A stat only accomplished by lebron, mj and the big O. I never thought he would be as good as those 3, but I don’t think he ended up better than booker
C'mon now. "Promise" is only that.
 
#62
Fair enough. It's more that I think the Kings organization has a habit of running kids careers into the ground moreso than a belief in him specifically.

Whether Bagley is playing or not, this team still performs the same. Couldn't care less about a net rating change when the wins and losses don't change. But we need a scapegoat. I'll let the subject of Bagley go.
I think it's becoming obvious that he's not necessarily the scapegoat for the losses this year but it's also becoming obvious to many people that the road to winning with him is going to be very difficult due to the position and defensive concerns we've all discussed on here ad nauseam.

He just needs too many things catered to him in order to even see if he can develop and I think that's part of the problem. Especially when compared to a player like Hali who can go out there with whoever and still do positive things. Bagley needs all these specific things set up offensively and defensively and to me, it's just not worth the investment going forward based on the talent we've seen from him. I also don't think it's quite fair to his teammates that are better than him.

No reason to let the subject go. We're all here to discuss whatever it is that we feel is relevant :cool:
 
#63
You would think so, but I was duped by Tyreke averaging 20/5/5 his rookie year. A stat only accomplished by lebron, mj and the big O. I never thought he would be as good as those 3, but I don’t think he ended up better than booker
Had a lot to do with injury too though. Also Lamelo was doing it on a winning-ish team, which counts for more than doing it on a 20 win team.
 
#64
Had a lot to do with injury too though. Also Lamelo was doing it on a winning-ish team, which counts for more than doing it on a 20 win team.
I’ll give you injury. But winning-ish in the East means absolutely nothing compared to the west back then. Plus playing alongside rozier and Hayward makes the game a lot easier than playing with Beno and Francisco Garcia.
 
#65
LaMelo sure is riding high on that hype train. Good lord. He is a good player, but god damn is he overrated here. I dont think Jayson Tatum is better than Fox.

also add Morant and others
Come on now. What is surprising about Memphis is how well they have done despite their best player shooting 44% from the field and 25% from 3. Morant is another way overhyped player thanks to social media.
 
#66
Grizzles definitely not a .500 team because of Ja. They've had numerous injuries and covid sit outs early in the year, JJJ hasn't been on the floor this year and Ja missed a dozen games. Guys on their roster like Anderson, Melton and Allen have stepped in and it's business as usual. Even without those guys I mentioned prior they were still maintaining .500.

It's an organization thing, a mentality or culture like San Antonio, Miami and Toronto (maybe not this year but they still have it). It's something that this Kings organization has been lacking for awhile and hopefully McNair can craft.
 
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#67
LaMelo sure is riding high on that hype train. Good lord. He is a good player, but god damn is he overrated here. I dont think Jayson Tatum is better than Fox.



Come on now. What is surprising about Memphis is how well they have done despite their best player shooting 44% from the field and 25% from 3. Morant is another way overhyped player thanks to social media.
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I think the irony here is that Kings fans tend to way overvalue their own players. Let me remind you, a non-insignificant number of people here weren't willing to trade Boogie for LeBron in like 2015.
 
#68
Grizzles definitely not a .500 team because of Ja. They've had numerous injuries and covid sit outs early in the year, JJJ hasn't been on the floor this year and Ja missed a dozen games. Guys on their roster like Anderson, Melton and Allen have stepped in and it's business as usual. Even without those guys I mentioned prior they were still maintaining .500.

It's an organization thing, a mentality or culture like San Antonio, Miami and Toronto (maybe not this year but they still have it). It's something that this Kings organization has been lacking for awhile and hopefully McNair can craft.
Shooting % are a small part of overall impact, Bagley has good %'s and is pure trash, Ja Morant makes others around him better Fox does not, Hali is probably the only one who has/might have it it has nothing to do with culture cause all those teams you mentioned suck/have sucked when they have bad players. Seriously the talent of Anderson/Melton/Allen is very low but they are effective players but they're not carrying you to anything other than Big Val/Brooks they have no other starters.

Imagine how good Morant is while shooting poorly to still be able to carry a team. Funny FG% were never taken into account when regarding "superstar" Cousins instead he was on par with all time greats despite losing and being inefficient.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#69
While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I think the irony here is that Kings fans tend to way overvalue their own players. Let me remind you, a non-insignificant number of people here weren't willing to trade Boogie for LeBron in like 2015.
To be fair, in this case, it’s guys around the league placing a high value on Fox and Kings fans adamantly telling them they’re wrong and Fox is actually worse than what they think he is for some reason.
 
#70
To be fair, in this case, it’s guys around the league placing a high value on Fox and Kings fans adamantly telling them they’re wrong and Fox is actually worse than what they think he is for some reason.
Is it though? Maybe like two guys are saying that... The rest seem to be saying Lamelo and others (not Fox) on the list are overrated
 
#71
I think it's becoming obvious that he's not necessarily the scapegoat for the losses this year but it's also becoming obvious to many people that the road to winning with him is going to be very difficult due to the position and defensive concerns we've all discussed on here ad nauseam.

He just needs too many things catered to him in order to even see if he can develop and I think that's part of the problem. Especially when compared to a player like Hali who can go out there with whoever and still do positive things. Bagley needs all these specific things set up offensively and defensively and to me, it's just not worth the investment going forward based on the talent we've seen from him. I also don't think it's quite fair to his teammates that are better than him.

No reason to let the subject go. We're all here to discuss whatever it is that we feel is relevant :cool:
The reason to let the subject go is because my defense of Marvin isn't really about Marvin. The focus and attention is being put on the wrong thing and if fans want to influence the team and get them to do things right, we can't put all of our attention on Buddy and Bagley and think things will change if we chase them out of town.

McNair, Walton and Fox shoulder the responsibility of what happens on that court. Nobody else. Yes, even Fox is responsible for the play of the other players on the court.

Do we really think that a team led by Lebron, Kawhi, Paul, Jimmy Butler would let their team be last on defense? They wouldn't just lead by example. They would get into their teammates faces. Would Jokic, Dame, Luka, Giannis let some player on the team tank their season? No chance. Whiteside made one comment about Bagley's defense, and Bagley immediately made a noticeable change. To me, that meant that there has been no voice in that locker room that is holding anyone accountable or even just flat out setting expectations. We can say each player should hold themselves accountable, but that's not the real world. That's why there are such things as leaders, supervisors, managers, etc.

I like Fox as a player, but he is not a leader of men and it is significantly impacting this teams ceiling. I don't necessarily blame Fox for his shortcomings, but he took the money and the role and he has to perform. Scoring 35pts a night is not sustainable. He has to get his teammates to perform as well.

As far as Walton, he's a bad leader if for nothing else, his inconsistency. If you hold one player accountable for bad defense, but not another, then everyone knows there really isn't a commitment to defense and your words are meaningless. Same on offense.

McNair walked into this job knowing the coach, the roster and what Vivek was about. If he's not able to execute his plan under those conditions when he knew what he was getting into, then he failed. Not Vivek. So my eyes are on him too.

When I defend players like Marvin or Buddy, it's because I can see where leadership is failing them. If the barista's at Starbucks keeps messing up my order, I'm going to go the their supervisor and let them know they either need to train their employees better, supervise them better, or hire better people. Fox may or may not be the 6th best individual player under 25, but we also need him or someone to lead this team.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#72
The reason to let the subject go is because my defense of Marvin isn't really about Marvin. The focus and attention is being put on the wrong thing and if fans want to influence the team and get them to do things right, we can't put all of our attention on Buddy and Bagley and think things will change if we chase them out of town.

McNair, Walton and Fox shoulder the responsibility of what happens on that court. Nobody else. Yes, even Fox is responsible for the play of the other players on the court.

Do we really think that a team led by Lebron, Kawhi, Paul, Jimmy Butler would let their team be last on defense? They wouldn't just lead by example. They would get into their teammates faces. Would Jokic, Dame, Luka, Giannis let some player on the team tank their season? No chance. Whiteside made one comment about Bagley's defense, and Bagley immediately made a noticeable change. To me, that meant that there has been no voice in that locker room that is holding anyone accountable or even just flat out setting expectations. We can say each player should hold themselves accountable, but that's not the real world. That's why there are such things as leaders, supervisors, managers, etc.

I like Fox as a player, but he is not a leader of men and it is significantly impacting this teams ceiling. I don't necessarily blame Fox for his shortcomings, but he took the money and the role and he has to perform. Scoring 35pts a night is not sustainable. He has to get his teammates to perform as well.

As far as Walton, he's a bad leader if for nothing else, his inconsistency. If you hold one player accountable for bad defense, but not another, then everyone knows there really isn't a commitment to defense and your words are meaningless. Same on offense.

McNair walked into this job knowing the coach, the roster and what Vivek was about. If he's not able to execute his plan under those conditions when he knew what he was getting into, then he failed. Not Vivek. So my eyes are on him too.

When I defend players like Marvin or Buddy, it's because I can see where leadership is failing them. If the barista's at Starbucks keeps messing up my order, I'm going to go the their supervisor and let them know they either need to train their employees better, supervise them better, or hire better people. Fox may or may not be the 6th best individual player under 25, but we also need him or someone to lead this team.
the Cavs were notoriously pretty awful on defense his last couple of years there and the Lakers were giving up 113 points a game the year he and Walton were together so probably not the best example to use
 
#73
the Cavs were notoriously pretty awful on defense his last couple of years there and the Lakers were giving up 113 points a game the year he and Walton were together so probably not the best example to use
That Walton Lebron Lakers team was 12th in def rtg though.