Doug Christie Breaks Down Rick Adelman

[kupman]

Agreed. People get way too wrapped up in the "Princeton offense" fairy tale. We ran a number of offensive schemes, but most of them don't have names so people simply default to using the term "Princeton offense" when talking about the Adelman era.

Basically, Adelman preached an offense that capitalized on ball movement, crisp passing and on-court vision to spot the open man. That's not the Princeton; that's just good sound fundamental basketball.

Right on. I posted this in another thread as well. There is no such thing as the Princeton offense. It is just a hodge-podge of old Celtic plays and a few old Knick plays. These are coachie's words - not mine. He has stated that the "Princeton offense" is a term made-up by journalists.

It is pretty sad when good ball movement and sharing the ball is seen as some type of offense deserving of it own name.

 

[Bricklayer]

It is pretty sad when good ball movement and sharing the ball is seen as some type of offense deserving of it own name.

The Princeton offense is quite distinct -- so distinct that there are books on it. It very much exists, or at least existed in pure form at Princeton whiel Carril was there.

What Coachie was saying is that its genesis was in old Celtics plays, and of that I have no doubt. But its been tweaked and streamlined and has a very distinct flavor. You can diagram exactly what it is. And if once upon a time it drew its heart from a subset of old Celtics plays, that still doesn't mean that its not a coherent offense. Most, if not all, modern offenses draw their theory and inspiration from things that have gone before. There are only so many things you can do with 5 guys in the halfcourt.

The point would not be that the Princeton offense does not exist -- it very much does. But that at NO point was Rick Adelman = Princeton. He used the Princeton, adopted it, will no doubt use aspects of it from here on out. But he's used other systems, knows other systems. The Princeton was not his baby, it was Coachie's. Rick just dipped in.

 

[kupman]

Coachie does not think there is a "princeton offense."

http://www.goprincetontigers.com/Vi...46548&SPID=4231&DB_OEM_ID=10600&ATCLID=742309


a couple of pieces of the interview:

It’s become known as “the Princeton offense;” elements of it are everywhere in basketball these days.

“Some guy drew it up in a magazine,” Carril says. “Some high school coach started using it. Eddie Jordan used it with the Nets when he had Goodrich there. Soon, there was a story about how everyone was playing it. They call in the Princeton offense. To me, that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard." .........................


“Princeton offense?” he shrugs. “Whatever that is. You can translate it in one sentence.

“What it means is sharing the ball. That’s it, right?”


The interview is dated January of 2007. So unless things have changed very recently, you can take the issue up with coachie.

 

[Bricklayer]

The interview is dated January of 2007. So unless things have changed very recently, you can take the issue up with coachie.

Gladly -- false modesty to the point of disingenuity. And really just playing a game of semantics.

And that entire sequence is laughable given that the Princeton offense was if anything MORE talked about as a distinct system when Coachie was still coaching at Princeton than it is now. If he wants to quibble with whether the various hybrids around the NBA are actually Princeton offenses, I'll listen. Eddie Jordan for instance doesn't run the Princeton, he just uses some Princeton sets here and there. His objection might be to the fadishness of the term now, like talking about the West Coast offense in football. There really was a West Coast offense once upon a time, but almost all the things called West Coast offenses now are at best hybrids.

In other news there is no triangle offense. In fact there is no offense of any kind, as they are basically all just sets of principles with various plays run according to them.

Nonetheless, if you can diagram it, its an offense. I will be happy to send Coachie to any number of websites showing him exactly what the offense looks like in case the ole memory is growing fuzzy. Its distinct enough that I could coach a middle school team how to use it, and if you were in the stands, you would recognize the sets.

 

[VF21]

The point would not be that the Princeton offense does not exist -- it very much does. But that at NO point was Rick Adelman = Princeton. He used the Princeton, adopted it, will no doubt use aspects of it from here on out. But he's used other systems, knows other systems. The Princeton was not his baby, it was Coachie's. Rick just dipped in.

Thank you! That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[kupman]

Gladly -- false modesty to the point of disingenuity. And really just playing a game of semantics.

And that entire sequence is laughable given that the Princeton offense was if anything MORE talked about as a distinct system when Coachie was still coaching at Princeton than it is now. If he wants to quibble with whether the various hybrids around the NBA are actually Princeton offenses, I'll listen. Eddie Jordan for instance doesn't run the Princeton, he just uses some Princeton sets here and there. His objection might be to the fadishness of the term now, like talking about the West Coast offense in football. There really was a West Coast offense once upon a time, but almost all the things called West Coast offenses now are at best hybrids.

In other news there is no triangle offense. In fact there is no offense of any kind, as they are basically all just sets of principles with various plays run according to them.

Nonetheless, if you can diagram it, its an offense. I will be happy to send Coachie to any number of websites showing him exactly what the offense looks like in case the ole memory is growing fuzzy. Its distinct enough that I could coach a middle school team how to use it, and if you were in the stands, you would recognize the sets.

So Coachie doesn't know what he is talking about either.......WHEW! - I thought it was just me. I feel better now.

 

[Bricklayer]

So Coachie doesn't know what he is talking about either.......WHEW! - I thought it was just me. I feel better now.

No, actually it is you who doesn't know what Coachie is talking about. Or understand the context/background. Coachie can call it or not call it whatever he wishes. Its largely gone beyond him now, and there is a defenitive set of traits, plays and acharacteristics that everybody who understands basketball cna spot in a second associated with his system. Its in a similar vein as the Sex Pistols looking around at the pop punk landscape and trying to deny punk exists.

 

[kupman]

No, actually it is you who doesn't know what Coachie is talking about. Or understand the context/background. Coachie can call it or not call it whatever he wishes. Its largely gone beyond him now, and there is a defenitive set of traits, plays and acharacteristics that everybody who understands basketball cna spot in a second associated with his system. Its in a similar vein as the Sex Pistols looking around at the pop punk landscape and trying to deny punk exists.

“Some guy drew it up in a magazine,” Carril says. “Some high school coach started using it. Eddie Jordan used it with the Nets when he had Goodrich there. Soon, there was a story about how everyone was playing it. They call in the Princeton offense. To me, that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard."

I am not saying anything about this topic. I could care less what you call the plays. I am just reporting what coachie himself has said.......take it up with him at this point.

 

[VF21]

It's not about Coachie, kupman. It's about what offensive scheme is known by the name "Princeton offense"...

You can be smug or sarcastic all you like, but if you ask a room of 100 people with at least a modicum of knowledge of basketball to define the "Princeton offense" you'll get the majority of them agreeing with each other. Pete Carril may not feel he deserves the credit for the offense, but you cannot deny the existence of the style...

The Princeton Offense is an offensive basketball style that was developed at Princeton University by Pete Carril. The offense emphasizes constant motion, passing, back-door cuts, and disciplined teamwork. The offense usually starts out with four players outside the three point arc with one player at the top of the key. The ball is kept in constant motion through passing until either a mismatch allows a player to cut inside to the basket or a player without the ball cuts toward the unoccupied area under and around the basket, and is passed the ball for a lay-up. Having a strong post player is important because this player is critical to passing to backdoor cutters, and can draw help defense to open outside shots.

The hallmark of the offense is the backdoor pass, where a player on the wing suddenly moves in towards the basket, receives a bounce pass from a guard on the perimeter, and (if done correctly) finds himself with no defenders between him and a layup. Alternatively, when the defensive team attempts to pack the paint to prevent backdoors, the offense utilizes three point shots from the perimeter. All five players in the offense-- including the center-- should be competent at making a three point attempt, further spreading the floor.

The offense is a very slow developing one, relying on a high number of passes, and is often used by teams facing opponents with superior athletic talent, to maintain a low-scoring game (believing that a high-scoring game would favor the athletically superior opponent).

Versions of the Princeton offense have been run by the New Orleans Hornets, New Jersey Nets, Sacramento Kings, and Washington Wizards in the NBA. It is only rarely used in the NCAA-- in part because it requires all five players on the floor to be adept at ball handling, dribbling, passing, and shooting. In addition, it requires a marked concentration on team play, and as a consequence it often results in a high number of assists on made baskets.

The eight college teams best known for utilizing the offense are Princeton, the Georgetown Hoyas (coach John Thompson III played under Carril at Princeton, and was later an assistant and head coach there), Air Force (where it was installed by former Carril player and protege and former Princeton head coach Joe Scott), Northwestern (installed by head coach Bill Carmody, another Carril protege and a former Princeton head coach), Richmond (under Chris Mooney-- a former Princeton player and assistant coach at Air Force), and Brown University, which installed the offense for the '06-'07 season when former Princeton player and Northwestern Assistant Coach Craig Robinson took over the squad. The offense is also played at Samford University, installed by head coach Jimmy Tillette, who has no direct ties to Princeton or Carril. USC also appears to be running the offense since the hiring of Tim Floyd. Herb Sendek is formerly of North Carolina State, but now is head men's basketball coach at Arizona State University. In 2006-7 Vanderbilt ran facets of the Princeton offense as well.

The use of this offense beyond Princeton is a relatively recent occurrence, as Carril was not interested in encouraging rival schools to lift Princeton's system and use it against them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_offense

 

[kupman]

You can be smug or sarcastic all you like, but if you ask a room of 100 people with at least a modicum of knowledge of basketball to define the "Princeton offense" you'll get the majority of them agreeing with each other.

Perhaps........but from coachie has stated, I am not sure that he is one of these people. That's all I am saying.

 

[VF21]

Coachie is probably the most modest, unassuming person you'll ever meet. If you didn't know who he was, you would never guess he'd been a successful basketball coach.

That's what we're trying to say. It's his modest nature that won't allow him to take the credit for the Princeton offense.

 

[kupman]

Coachie is probably the most modest, unassuming person you'll ever meet. If you didn't know who he was, you would never guess he'd been a successful basketball coach.

That's what we're trying to say. It's his modest nature that won't allow him to take the credit for the Princeton offense.

That's very nice of you to say about coachie. I also believe that he does not see the need to change the name of something that has been around for longer than most of us have been alive. It is really just a bunch of plays he took from other sources. For the most part, I do not think anyone really cares what you call it. However, it becomes an issue with me when i read comments such as:

But I wouldn't be too overeager to see it return -- that system has produced a grand total of 0 titles at ANY level (unless you count Ivy League titles for Princeton) and requires highly specialized personnel that we don't really have.

I think a statement like this robs credit from the originators of the 'system,' - the Celtics dynasty. Just because you call it something new, does not mean that it is new. The Celtics used with with great success and that should be acknowledged.

and....

The Princeton was designed to make the most of the soft, white, unathletic, preppy nerds who play center for the Tigers, and the soft, white, unathletic, preppy nerds who play guard and small forward for the Tigers and could never in a million years create a shot on their own against a qualified NCAA opponent. And unfortunately the skillsets that make it hum are skillsets that you are going to find overwhelmingly in soft unathletic players who have had to get by with their minds in lieu of talent and ahtleticism.

This is just offensive at several levels. The guys at Princeton just used an already existing idea that had been used with success in other settings.

 

[sloter]

I really hope that we don't use Princeton offense with this group of players. It requires skilled big men and all-around guards and the Kings don't have either. The only player who could be successful in it is Miller, the other players are simply not good enough passers or don't have good enough vision.