Despite the recent woe...

[KainLear]

Personally, I still think we are only a few moves and adjustments away from being very competent contending in the Playoffs. I still believe that our off-season predetermined system sucks and our coaching staff has been failing at utilizing our players to the fullest. I believe once we get some real coaching, which I believe Monte McNair with his so far ho-hum track record should be capable of finding, and start putting some winning strategies together, we will at the very least be competent once again. (At least back to Joerger's level, I hope haha)

Once Ty is given the full-go on the PG as the showrunner and Fox develops into the super deadly assassin 2-guard complementary piece, the Kingmaker, alongside Tyrese the King. Winning should start from that point, imo.

GO KINGS!!!




(I was trapped in a time machine earlier going through some of my old posts and time and time again keep finding VF21's footprint saying similar things despite bad times, feel like maybe this is the least I can do...)

 

[NewArena]

I don’t think you’re that far off with this take. Again, Monte hasn’t been here long enough to have a real “track record” IMO, and i stand by that. Let’s see what happens at the deadline and this summer with a full off-season.

 

[KainLear]

Imagine if Fox develops a super quick one-step dribble into a middy that goes in 50% of the time. So that can add an extra scoring opportunity on top of what we have now: Ty tries, not successful, time running out, Fox 4-out iso ball, or the other scenario with Fox tries first lol

(Edit: I must say Kayte's been doing a good job helping me see more clear on some of the plays the Kings been running this season. Kudos to her.)

 

[cwebb2002]

The issue is the other side of the ball. They play crap defense allowing complementary players to look lije all stars. Hell, huerter and simmons gave them the business. The teams bigs are always out of position for defense and rebounds. Partly because no one on the perimeter other than Mitchell (and harkless when he is on the perimeter) actually defends, and partly because they suck at defense.

 

[kb02]

The issue is the other side of the ball. They play crap defense allowing complementary players to look lije all stars. Hell, huerter and simmons gave them the business. The teams bigs are always out of position for defense and rebounds. Partly because no one on the perimeter other than Mitchell (and harkless when he is on the perimeter) actually defends, and partly because they suck at defense.

Pace and an offense only focus gets you good offense stats, which leads to big contracts. Well done, Fox and Buddy. But those great looking stats and those big contracts haven't and wont lead to any winning.

 

[kingsboi]

if Monte is the one who gets the Kings out of misery, it will take time for him to plant his seed. A GM needs a couple of seasons to really construct his roster together and a good start is at the deadline. A major move doesn't have to be made if there is not one to be made. The draft and the entire summer offseason will provide more time to make moves. Kings fans are rightfully impatient, but unless you decide to take a break from the team or become apathetic, this is the reality we will be facing

 

[Dongoodboy]

if Monte is the one who gets the Kings out of misery, it will take time for him to plant his seed. A GM needs a couple of seasons to really construct his roster together and a good start is at the deadline. A major move doesn't have to be made if there is not one to be made. The draft and the entire summer offseason will provide more time to make moves. Kings fans are rightfully impatient, but unless you decide to take a break from the team or become apathetic, this is the reality we will be facing

If you give him 3 years to prove himself then it is halfway now. At this point I still don't see Monte proving himself. We will see if he is capable of making bigger move than trading away 2nd round picks.

 

[ESP47]

Personally, I still think we are only a few moves and adjustments away from being very competent contending in the Playoffs. I still believe that our off-season predetermined system sucks and our coaching staff has been failing at utilizing our players to the fullest. I believe once we get some real coaching, which I believe Monte McNair with his so far ho-hum track record should be capable of finding, and start putting some winning strategies together, we will at the very least be competent once again. (At least back to Joerger's level, I hope haha)

Once Ty is given the full-go on the PG as the showrunner and Fox develops into the super deadly assassin 2-guard complementary piece, the Kingmaker, alongside Tyrese the King. Winning should start from that point, imo.

GO KINGS!!!




(I was trapped in a time machine earlier going through some of my old posts and time and time again keep finding VF21's footprint saying similar things despite bad times, feel like maybe this is the least I can do...)

Vivek's burner?

 

[Woot!]

if Monte is the one who gets the Kings out of misery, it will take time for him to plant his seed. A GM needs a couple of seasons to really construct his roster together and a good start is at the deadline. A major move doesn't have to be made if there is not one to be made. The draft and the entire summer offseason will provide more time to make moves. Kings fans are rightfully impatient, but unless you decide to take a break from the team or become apathetic, this is the reality we will be facing

 

[KainLear]

The issue is the other side of the ball. They play crap defense allowing complementary players to look lije all stars. Hell, huerter and simmons gave them the business. The teams bigs are always out of position for defense and rebounds. Partly because no one on the perimeter other than Mitchell (and harkless when he is on the perimeter) actually defends, and partly because they suck at defense.

You are absolutely not wrong here. The main reason I pointed out the offense is that, coming into this season, we had some faith in our offense. We thought at the time that, at the very least, we have enough talent to not be too worried about offense, whereas on the defensive end, you take one look at the roster and you can see that we just simply do not have the right pieces to be a top 5 defensive team, especially considering their scheme is to be switching all the time. That's recipe for disaster allowing opposing team to find our weakest link and continuous attacking him (think LeBron switching for Buddy/Bagley matchups a few games ago).

 

[KainLear]

Vivek's burner?

All I was saying is, we got enough talent to be a .500 team. That's the impression on paper this past off-season. We obviously are underperforming at the moment but you gotta either be extremely optimistic or naive to think we'd have done much better than the current product we are getting today, which is to say you'd have to be having some unrealistic expectations going in to the season.

Now we can read into Monte McNair's record so far and see where he's going with this. For example, we tried to trade for Donte DiVincenzo, a 3 and D guard. We can probably say, in an alternate universe, had we got him and he was not too injury prone for us, we might not have drafted Davion Mitchell. The other trade attempt (allegedly) didn't go through was for Buddy + some pieces might or might not be including Marv, to the Lakers for a selection of KCP and Kuzma. That tells me he was definitely looking at getting better in the wing position both offensively (Kuzma) and defensively (KCP).

To conclude, I just think that, had any of these pieces were to drop differently. We could have been very realistically looking at a .500 team right now while Fox and Ty are in the race to their first all-star appearance.

 

[ESP47]

All I was saying is, we got enough talent to be a .500 team. That's the impression on paper this past off-season. We obviously are underperforming at the moment but you gotta either be extremely optimistic or naive to think we'd have done much better than the current product we are getting today, which is to say you'd have to be having some unrealistic expectations going in to the season.

Now we can read into Monte McNair's record so far and see where he's going with this. For example, we tried to trade for Donte DiVincenzo, a 3 and D guard. We can probably say, in an alternate universe, had we got him and he was not too injury prone for us, we might not have drafted Davion Mitchell. The other trade attempt (allegedly) didn't go through was for Buddy + some pieces might or might not be including Marv, to the Lakers for a selection of KCP and Kuzma. That tells me he was definitely looking at getting better in the wing position both offensively (Kuzma) and defensively (KCP).

To conclude, I just think that, had any of these pieces were to drop differently. We could have been very realistically looking at a .500 team right now while Fox and Ty are in the race to their first all-star appearance.

I was just poking fun. I personally don't think they're a Buddy or Barnes trade away from contending but there are still a few people like yourself that do. Nothing wrong with being optimistic.

Monte seems a lot more competent than Vlade for sure and he's tried to make some solid moves that haven't panned out. He obviously knows the direction the team needs to go in to put a winning product on the floor but I don't know if Vivek will allow him to do that.

I think trading for pieces equivalent to KCP and Kuzma and trying to make a run with them is just another waste of time. Every time the Kings make these relatively small moves, it sets them back a full year or two because they try making a run and always come up short. Then they try another tweak and make another run for a year and fail again. When they do this, they're just acquiring average to below average players and setting themselves up in the draft to miss out on the above average players. It's a perpetual cycle of mediocrity.

To me, what we're looking at are the results of a failed rebuild and they need to rebuild again. I think the trade deadline will be telling and I think if the trades involve acquiring middle of the road players they think will help them win now, we'll be having this exact same conversation next year. I think a big shake up is needed.

 

[sactowndog]

All I was saying is, we got enough talent to be a .500 team. That's the impression on paper this past off-season. We obviously are underperforming at the moment but you gotta either be extremely optimistic or naive to think we'd have done much better than the current product we are getting today, which is to say you'd have to be having some unrealistic expectations going in to the season.

Now we can read into Monte McNair's record so far and see where he's going with this. For example, we tried to trade for Donte DiVincenzo, a 3 and D guard. We can probably say, in an alternate universe, had we got him and he was not too injury prone for us, we might not have drafted Davion Mitchell. The other trade attempt (allegedly) didn't go through was for Buddy + some pieces might or might not be including Marv, to the Lakers for a selection of KCP and Kuzma. That tells me he was definitely looking at getting better in the wing position both offensively (Kuzma) and defensively (KCP).

To conclude, I just think that, had any of these pieces were to drop differently. We could have been very realistically looking at a .500 team right now while Fox and Ty are in the race to their first all-star appearance.

I think a small subset of fans thought this team was even close to a .500 team with the holes we had on the wing. Had Monte traded Simmons for Fox after summer league when people thought his shooting was trending up versus a one year statistical anomaly, perhaps more people would have agreed with the .500 statement.

 

[gunks]

Coaching please.

Gentry ain’t it.

 

[The_Jamal]

I was just poking fun. I personally don't think they're a Buddy or Barnes trade away from contending but there are still a few people like yourself that do. Nothing wrong with being optimistic.

Monte seems a lot more competent than Vlade for sure and he's tried to make some solid moves that haven't panned out. He obviously knows the direction the team needs to go in to put a winning product on the floor but I don't know if Vivek will allow him to do that.

I think trading for pieces equivalent to KCP and Kuzma and trying to make a run with them is just another waste of time. Every time the Kings make these relatively small moves, it sets them back a full year or two because they try making a run and always come up short. Then they try another tweak and make another run for a year and fail again. When they do this, they're just acquiring average to below average players and setting themselves up in the draft to miss out on the above average players. It's a perpetual cycle of mediocrity.

To me, what we're looking at are the results of a failed rebuild and they need to rebuild again. I think the trade deadline will be telling and I think if the trades involve acquiring middle of the road players they think will help them win now, we'll be having this exact same conversation next year. I think a big shake up is needed.

This is what it comes down to. Fox/Buddy/Barnes/Bagley/Holmes is the culmination of the 5 year Vlade era and we're 200+ games with this core intact. For whatever the reason is, it's not winning games. At this point, we just have to hope the FO and Vivek recognize this and capitalize on being able to tear this down with a couple strong rebuilding pieces (Hali/Mitchell) already on board.

 

[kb02]

This is what it comes down to. Fox/Buddy/Barnes/Bagley/Holmes is the culmination of the 5 year Vlade era and we're 200+ games with this core intact. For whatever the reason is, it's not winning games. At this point, we just have to hope the FO and Vivek recognize this and capitalize on being able to tear this down with a couple strong rebuilding pieces (Hali/Mitchell) already on board.

Not winning, because, on offense, you got three black holes (Fox, Buddy, and Bags) and one de facto black hole, because he (Holmes) is a poor passer even for his position. And, on defense, one legit sized, but average defender (Barnes) and an undersized, but average defender (Holmes). The other three are matadors though two of them have the physical tools to be at least average defenders. Fox chooses to defend once every other ten games and Bagley is one handed, has a low motor, and obviously hasn’t spent much time watching film on his IPAD.

Blow up the Vlade core, Monte. Tick Tock.

 

[SacTownKid]

View attachment 10830

Nope. Once negativity sets in this deeply? Better jump on it and do some cleaning. Anything you attach to it in ancillary fashion gets smeared in the same **** attached to it. That goes for draft picks, trades, everything. If Vivek didn't create this mess then his willingness to let a noob GM continue it is on him. I don't care what ivy league school they went to. Time to find someone with a track record to bail this out. And that's just to start.

 

[KainLear]

Nope. Once negativity sets in this deeply? Better jump on it and do some cleaning. Anything you attach to it in ancillary fashion gets smeared in the same **** attached to it. That goes for draft picks, trades, everything. If Vivek didn't create this mess then his willingness to let a noob GM continue it is on him. I don't care what ivy league school they went to. Time to find someone with a track record to bail this out. And that's just to start.

But what does the sunny side of SacTownKid says? If I force you to find the silver lining, where is it for the happy sunny SacTownKid?

 

[cwebb2002]

I actually think on paper this team should be around .500, but the pieces dont fit. If they make a move or two for more defensive minded players i think they could get there and not necessarily requiring moving Fox or Hali. That being said, to get them to be a good team one of them will need to be moved. But whoever is moved, it cant just be based on the skill of the player. Fit with the remaining pieces also needs to be considered. For example people want to move Fox for Simmons which could work fit wise, but Fox is redundant on the 76ers with Maxie so they would likely want Hali and Barnes. But getting rid of the 2 most reliable shooters and putting Fox and Simmons together is a recipe for the worst shooting team in the league and probably wont move the needle to where the team is any good really. However moving fox for someone like Jaylen Brown is likely to be beneficial for both Boston and Sacramento. Improves our offense and shooting. We would likely need to send some picks too. Then flipping buddy or barnes and bagley for a reliable rim protector like Myles Turner, or in the off season, working a sign and trade for Ayton would be big for us.

SAC out: Fox, 2024 first rounder, 2023 first round pick swap and this years and next years second rounder

BOS Out: Jaylen Brown

Then
SAC Out: Bagley, Buddy, 2022 First
IND Out: Tuner, Lamb

Hali/Mitchell
Brown/TD/Ramsey
Barnes/Lamb/Harkless
Turner/Metu/Thompson
Holmes/Len/Jones

That still gives you Holmes if you want to move him, and Thompsons expiring contract to move along with lambs expiring. If you sit pat with it, it takes 19-20M off the books next year (Thompson and Lamb) to get better pieces.

 

[SacTownKid]

But what does the sunny side of SacTownKid says? If I force you to find the silver lining, where is it for the happy sunny SacTownKid?

That Vivek has Larry Bird's contact information. Vivek balked at giving him a part of the franchise before but after letting Shaq have a piece, what's the hold up here? Anyone can and should have a piece after that. haha.

 

[reptilexcq2]

I actually think on paper this team should be around .500, but the pieces dont fit. If they make a move or two for more defensive minded players i think they could get there and not necessarily requiring moving Fox or Hali. That being said, to get them to be a good team one of them will need to be moved. But whoever is moved, it cant just be based on the skill of the player. Fit with the remaining pieces also needs to be considered. For example people want to move Fox for Simmons which could work fit wise, but Fox is redundant on the 76ers with Maxie so they would likely want Hali and Barnes. But getting rid of the 2 most reliable shooters and putting Fox and Simmons together is a recipe for the worst shooting team in the league and probably wont move the needle to where the team is any good really. However moving fox for someone like Jaylen Brown is likely to be beneficial for both Boston and Sacramento. Improves our offense and shooting. We would likely need to send some picks too. Then flipping buddy or barnes and bagley for a reliable rim protector like Myles Turner, or in the off season, working a sign and trade for Ayton would be big for us.

SAC out: Fox, 2024 first rounder, 2023 first round pick swap and this years and next years second rounder

BOS Out: Jaylen Brown

Then
SAC Out: Bagley, Buddy, 2022 First
IND Out: Tuner, Lamb

Hali/Mitchell
Brown/TD/Ramsey
Barnes/Lamb/Harkless
Turner/Metu/Thompson
Holmes/Len/Jones

That still gives you Holmes if you want to move him, and Thompsons expiring contract to move along with lambs expiring. If you sit pat with it, it takes 19-20M off the books next year (Thompson and Lamb) to get better pieces.

Why set yourself or degrade yourself so low? I wouldn't even do Fox for Jaylen Brown, let alone giving up TWO 1st round picks. Jaylen Brown ain't all that.

Bagley and Buddy for Tuner, Lamb...not going to throw in the 1st round. Lamb isn't that good...Tuner is alright.

 

[kingsfan101]

I was just poking fun. I personally don't think they're a Buddy or Barnes trade away from contending but there are still a few people like yourself that do. Nothing wrong with being optimistic.

Monte seems a lot more competent than Vlade for sure and he's tried to make some solid moves that haven't panned out. He obviously knows the direction the team needs to go in to put a winning product on the floor but I don't know if Vivek will allow him to do that.

I think trading for pieces equivalent to KCP and Kuzma and trying to make a run with them is just another waste of time. Every time the Kings make these relatively small moves, it sets them back a full year or two because they try making a run and always come up short. Then they try another tweak and make another run for a year and fail again. When they do this, they're just acquiring average to below average players and setting themselves up in the draft to miss out on the above average players. It's a perpetual cycle of mediocrity.

To me, what we're looking at are the results of a failed rebuild and they need to rebuild again. I think the trade deadline will be telling and I think if the trades involve acquiring middle of the road players they think will help them win now, we'll be having this exact same conversation next year. I think a big shake up is needed.

AFAIK, there is no recent history to suggest that Vivek is pulling the strings behind the curtain, or that he has tied up Monte in some way. Is there any report like that?

It is certainly possible, even likely, that he wants to put a competitive product on the floor. I can understand fans that are asking for a tear down and rebuild complaining about this strategy, and blaming Vivek for it. I have no idea though if Monte has radically different plans, and is in favor of trading away the Vlade core, no matter the returns, to start from scratch. I would assume they would have agreed on the expectation of the owners when Monte took over the job, so unless he has changed his views since, but is unable to express them due to Vivek's expectations, again, this is purely speculation.

I think a lot of folks are sour at Vivek's initial meddling ways, and believe that he is still carrying on like before. Unless there is some evidence of this though, I think it's unfair to blame him. Just as we expect players to evolve, coaches and owners evolve too. No reason to assume that he is the same meddling owner he was a few years back.

 

[ESP47]

AFAIK, there is no recent history to suggest that Vivek is pulling the strings behind the curtain, or that he has tied up Monte in some way. Is there any report like that?

It is certainly possible, even likely, that he wants to put a competitive product on the floor. I can understand fans that are asking for a tear down and rebuild complaining about this strategy, and blaming Vivek for it. I have no idea though if Monte has radically different plans, and is in favor of trading away the Vlade core, no matter the returns, to start from scratch. I would assume they would have agreed on the expectation of the owners when Monte took over the job, so unless he has changed his views since, but is unable to express them due to Vivek's expectations, again, this is purely speculation.

I think a lot of folks are sour at Vivek's initial meddling ways, and believe that he is still carrying on like before. Unless there is some evidence of this though, I think it's unfair to blame him. Just as we expect players to evolve, coaches and owners evolve too. No reason to assume that he is the same meddling owner he was a few years back.

Obviously I have no way of knowing for sure but when you rinse and repeat the same failing strategy for nearly every year of his ownership....it's a somewhat safe assumption to make that he's still pulling the strings a bit more than he should.

 

[cwebb2002]

Why set yourself or degrade yourself so low? I wouldn't even do Fox for Jaylen Brown, let alone giving up TWO 1st round picks. Jaylen Brown ain't all that.

Bagley and Buddy for Tuner, Lamb...not going to throw in the 1st round. Lamb isn't that good...Tuner is alright.

Are you for real or pulling my leg? Jaylen Brown is scoring 25 ppg, 6.6 reb, and 3 ast on on 46% from the field and 38% from 3pt range on a team where he is the second option and the first option is a very high volume shooter who is basically a black hole of ball movement. Fox by comparison is 21/3.3/6 on 45% and 27% respectively. Also brown is a far superior defender to fox and can play both SG and SF allowing Hali to move to his natural PG spot. And im not even a guy who wants to get rid of fox. If you can find a way to build a contender around him id love it cuz i really like him (though hate when he settles for 3s sometimes). But the ONLY thing the kings have of value is fox and 1sts. And for boston i think they would rather have Fox than Hali. If you can move Hali and Buddy or barnes for brown im down with that two, but he would require a first for sure because he is better than any player on the kings. That itself may not be enough to pry him, hence the pick swap (not 2 picks).

As for Turner, he is the best rim protector in the league and he ranks 15th in the league in deflections and is top-five in terms of defensive field goal percentage at the rim. Indiana's defensive rating is a 107.7 when he is on the court and a 111.3 when he is on the bench. Sonyes he is that very good for what the kings need. Offensively he is Bagley and Holmes in one player.

Lamb is a throw in to make salaries match and to get salary flexibility for the kings. It moves a piece in Bagley the kings dont want but could be useful for pacers rebuild but is low risk for them and the pieces that may need to pry turner (buddy or barnes and a pick). Otherwise get ready to see him with Mavs or Lakers. Lamb will be able to provide reliable wing depth and will come off the books to the tune of 10M. If you like his play you can get him back next year for cheaper.