Desert Island Video Game Draft Playoffs - Round 2 (#4 Tetsujin vs. #5 Insomniacal Fan)

[Padrino]

What if the tiebreaker vote is also a tie? Let's just get it over with and let fate decide. Flip a coin! (Or do my idea please )

Spoiler: On tiebreakers generally

Tiebreakers in sports typically involve adding new information, play an extra set, or do penalty shots, etc. If we wanted to do something like this, the right way to go about it would be to draft a set of new titles and vote on those.

Redoing the vote mostly relies on the inherent randomness of voters. It's just silly to redo with the premise that people forget the context.

Re: your spoiler, I tend to think there's a great deal more randomness in a coin flip than in a voter's rationale. I mean, there were some tremendous write-ups to justify the very votes that were cast in this draft's playoffs!

That said, it's not my tie to break. You and Tetsu can come to an agreement on how to conduct it, I'm sure.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

@Capt. Factorial asked for objections, and I raised my objections to the tiebreaker vote. @Tetsujin, do you object to a coin toss? Or to my random number website idea?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I submit both posters take turns kicking each other in the nuts until one gives up.

We should probably vote on each poster's top 5 picks to determine who gets to go first.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Re: your spoiler, I tend to think there's a great deal more randomness in a coin flip than in a voter's rationale. I mean, there were some tremendous write-ups to justify the very votes that were cast in this draft's playoffs!

That said, it's not my tie to break. You and Tetsu can come to an agreement on how to conduct it, I'm sure.

For the initial vote I agree, but the writeups and everything were already available for that round. Doing the same thing over again with minimal new information is mostly relying on voters being random

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

For the initial vote I agree, but the writeups and everything were already available for that round. Doing the same thing over again with minimal new information is mostly relying on voters being random

Which isn't terrible, (especially for something as low stakes as this) I'd just suggest we cut to the chase

 

[hrdboild]

Why not let everyone revote then? And then we're right back where we started

Not necessarily. I didn't vote in any of these matchups -- got busy with work and I thought the deadline was Sunday.

 

[Tetsujin]

Not necessarily. I didn't vote in any of these matchups -- got busy with work and I though the deadline was Sunday.

No pressure then

 

[hrdboild]

No pressure then

Yeah... I don't know that everyone wants me deciding the outcome of this. You might all be more comfortable with a coin flip.

I think some kind of tie-breaker is a good idea though I don't know what it should be. Each picking a top 5 list would probably produce a different result. You could also each pick one game and plead your case. I'm also cool with the two of you deciding on what the tie-breaker should be.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I was thinking about how we'd implement a coin flip without actually being in eachother's presence.
After thinking about it for a bit, I have an idea, let me know what you think.

There are web applications out there that generate a random number every minute (called a pulse), and then record that number so that it can be looked up later. (Example, https://random.colorado.edu/.) I'll pick a pulse that will be generated at around 10 PM tonight PDT, `959644`
Tetsujin will pick even or odd. At 10 PM, we can all look up the number on that website, and if the last digit in the random number is of the selected parity, then Tetsujin wins, otherwise I win.


Make sense?

As an example, The pulse 959644 came out last night at 9:56 (I was off by a few minutes from 10pm). The last digit in the random number ends in `c` (it's a hexadecimal number.) In hex, A, C, and E (10, 12, 14) are even numbers, where B, D, and F( 11, 13, 15) are odd numbers. So whoever picked even would be the winner.



Any way, I think this is fun. I also think it's efficient, as there's zero chance of another tie. It's fair and transparent. And I think it respects the outcome of the first vote. (Capt flipping a coin is also all these things, though maybe a little less fun for me.)

I don't think we can reach a consensus until you weigh in one way or another @Tetsujin . If a random choice is objectionable in some way, we can move on quickly. I don't want to keep everyone else waiting.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm suggesting an improvement, picking 5 from within the list doesn't really make sense, as everybody knows what the full list is. Effectively it's just a redo of the vote.

Actually, even though @hrdboild did not post his rankings for this matchup in this thread, I would venture to guess that there are at least two voters whose vote could be swayed entirely based on which five games were picked.

Spoiler

I'm one of them.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

OK, I mentioned I was going to be out of commission yesterday, and since things haven't really resolved, I think we've lost enough time here.

I will use the Boulder random number that will be released at 9:15 today to determine the winner. We will use the first digit, and even numbers go to Tetsujin (0, 2, 4, 6, 8, a, c, e), odd numbers go to Insomniacal Fan (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, b, d, f).

I see my error in asking about objections. Future ties will be broken by the standard 5-game list, with lists submitted to me in 24 hours or the top five drafted games will be used.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

OK, I mentioned I was going to be out of commission yesterday, and since things haven't really resolved, I think we've lost enough time here.

I will use the Boulder random number that will be released at 9:15 today to determine the winner. We will use the first digit, and even numbers go to Tetsujin (0, 2, 4, 6, 8, a, c, e), odd numbers go to Insomniacal Fan (1, 3, 5, 7, 9, b, d, f).

I see my error in asking about objections. Future ties will be broken by the standard 5-game list, with lists submitted to me in 24 hours or the top five drafted games will be used.

I actually think the error was in not specifying the tiebreaker rules beforehand. It seems like if we change the rules mid-draft it's reasonable to seek consensus.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Pulse 960323 has it


Grats @Tetsujin !

 

[Capt. Factorial]

The results are in:

The first digit is an "a", which goes to Tetsujin. Congrats! Let's move on to the third round!

 

[Löwenherz]

Actually, even though @hrdboild did not post his rankings for this matchup in this thread, I would venture to guess that there are at least two voters whose vote could be swayed entirely based on which five games were picked.

Spoiler

I'm one of them.

Agreed. As an example, using someone already eliminated, if Cap was in an OT tiebreaker, this 5:

Zelda 2
Final Fantasy
Zelda
PAC-Man
OOTP Baseball

Would likely earn my vote while this 5:

Tetris
Myst
River Raid
Astrosmash
Stray

Absolutely would not.

We can take it even further by putting Cap in a hypothetical OT matchup. hrdboild was my second highest ranking roster. Let’s say he was facing Cap’s first 5 that I listed and chooses these to counter:

Final Fantasy VII
Xenogears
Riven
Bushido Blade
The Dig

I am 100% voting for Cap’s list because hrdboild’s are 5 games I either outright dislike or have a heavy disinterest. However, if hrdboild chose:

Assassins Creed IV: Black Flag
Fallout
Interstate ‘76
Rollercoaster Tycoon
Tie Fighter

That makes the matchup a lot tougher for me and I think hrdboild might win the day, even though I just fawned over Cap’s 5. It doesn’t matter what my original vote would have been in a match-up between their full 15 rosters; I am perfectly able to compartmentalize and make a choice of what’s in front of me.

This doesn’t have to be hypothetical either as we actually have data on an instance of this happening. During the last Video Game draft, which to give you context, started while The Dark Knight was still in theaters, we had two rosters finish in a tie and they were asked to chose 1 game each to square off in a tie-breaker.

One drafter chose Zelda: Ocarina of Time (their first overall pick) while the other chose Tetris.

Tetris won in a landslide.

And interestingly, especially for our purposes, there is actually a rather involved discussion that the voting would have been closer had the person who chose Zelda sent out Pac-Man instead.

Thread 'Video Game Playoffs - Round 1 Tiebreaker!!'

Nov 9, 2008

Both participants have sent me their choice, so, which will it be?

Note: This will only be open for 24 hours, so vote now!

• SacKings7
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Lounge

I guess I have to say I’m surprised and especially confused by the rejection of the active strategy in the established OT rules in favor of leaving it to total chance with a coin flip. IF seems to have an ingrained and specific distaste for overtime in sports, which I think is is valid and intriguing (NFL overtime rules suck), and that appears to be triggering this response. If I’m understanding correctly, IF see’s the latter coin flip option as more fair than anything that changes the original game rules to something different as a way to determine the winner.

Whereas I think moving on with a coin flip is especially hollow, while there is more engagement, interest and I suppose satisfaction in earning the spot through a mini game competition.

 

[Löwenherz]

Agreed. As an example, using someone already eliminated, if Cap was in an OT tiebreaker, this 5:

Zelda 2
Final Fantasy
Zelda
PAC-Man
OOTP Baseball

Would likely earn my vote while this 5:

Tetris
Myst
River Raid
Astrosmash
Stray

Absolutely would not.

We can take it even further by putting Cap in a hypothetical OT matchup. hrdboild was my second highest ranking roster. Let’s say he was facing Cap’s first 5 that I listed and chooses these to counter:

Final Fantasy VII
Xenogears
Riven
Bushido Blade
The Dig

I am 100% voting for Cap’s list because hrdboild’s are 5 games I either outright dislike or have a heavy disinterest. However, if hrdboild chose:

Assassins Creed IV: Black Flag
Fallout
Interstate ‘76
Rollercoaster Tycoon
Tie Fighter

That makes the matchup a lot tougher for me and I think hrdboild might win the day, even though I just fawned over Cap’s 5. It doesn’t matter what my original vote would have been in a match-up between their full 15 rosters; I am perfectly able to compartmentalize and make a choice of what’s in front of me.

This doesn’t have to be hypothetical either as we actually have data on an instance of this happening. During the last Video Game draft, which to give you context, started while The Dark Knight was still in theaters, we had two rosters finish in a tie and they were asked to chose 1 game each to square off in a tie-breaker.

One drafter chose Zelda: Ocarina of Time (their first overall pick) while the other chose Tetris.

Tetris won in a landslide.

And interestingly, especially for our purposes, there is actually a rather involved discussion that the voting would have been closer had the person who chose Zelda sent out Pac-Man instead.

Thread 'Video Game Playoffs - Round 1 Tiebreaker!!'

Nov 9, 2008

Both participants have sent me their choice, so, which will it be?

Note: This will only be open for 24 hours, so vote now!

• SacKings7
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Lounge

I guess I have to say I’m surprised and especially confused by the rejection of the active strategy in the established OT rules in favor of leaving it to total chance with a coin flip. IF seems to have an ingrained and specific distaste for overtime in sports, which I think is is valid and intriguing (NFL overtime rules suck), and that appears to be triggering this response. If I’m understanding correctly, IF see’s the latter coin flip option as more fair than anything that changes the original game rules to something different as a way to determine the winner.

Whereas I think moving on with a coin flip is especially hollow, while there is more engagement, interest and I suppose satisfaction in earning the spot through a mini game competition.

Well, um, never mind. Talk about a shot after the buzzer. I really need to get quicker on my rants.

IF, love so much of your list; you earned my vote in both rounds. Baldur’s Gste 3 is a generational game (that I will eventual get to playing myself). Red Dead Redemption 2 is a beautiful and some would say superior follow-up to a game that dominated my life for a month on the PS3. Love the vibe and theming of Wind Waker and Subnautica back-to-back. Shadows of Mordor and its nemesis system need to be talked about more often. You have some rather spectacular and expansive giants in X4, Factorio, and Satisfactory that I really appreciate you bringing to my attention. Dwarf Fortress is legendary and I really would like to take a swing myself. And of course, there is Civ IV, which while not quite as committed to it as Slim, is a huge draw for me.

Congrats Tetsujin. Let’s do this.

 

[hrdboild]

I waited until the tie-breaker was resolved so as not to be a distraction, but this was how I scored this one...

1. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (Tetsujin) = 30 "I've got the two recent Zelda games pretty much tied here for #1 because I'd really like to play these if I ever get a chance to. Don't have much else to say about them. The stylized look of the graphics makes me slightly jealous of the Nintendo people for a change."
2. The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom (Tetsujin) = 29 "See above. Also, the look of these games feels at least partly inspired by the three games that Fumito Ueda was lead designer on for Sony: Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and The Last Guardian. And I loved the look of those games, if not always the gameplay."
3. Diablo II (Tetsujin) = 28 "This is a fantastic game. I probably played it a little too much to the point where I got burned out on it and missed the relative simplicity of the original Diablo, but I'd still rank it super high on my list of games I wouldn't mind dipping into again. Also, the Lord of Destruction expansion would get my vote for the best expansion pack Blizzard has ever released."
4. X4: Foundations (Insomniac) = 27 "Would still love to play this one."
5. Final Fantasy X (Tetsujin) = 26 "Ah yes... Final Fantasy X, one of the more polarizing entries in the series. Obviously I love FF VII. Count me among the folks who consider FF VIII the black sheep of the series. FF IX won me back with the charming character design and then this game came along and tried to blend what was best about all of them, to mixed results. I didn't fall in love with these characters but the sphere grid system was really cool and I enjoyed the combat and the setting."
6. Super Smash Bros. Melee (Insomniac) = 25 "This and FF X are virtually tied. This one is easier to jump into for a few quick rounds but I never finished FF X and would like to so given the choice, I'd probably opt to play that again first."
7. Subnautica (Insomniac) = 24 "This and X4 are ranked awfully high for games I have not played but deep sea exploration is a close second to deep space exploration in capturing my imagination."
8. Dwarf Fortress (Insomniac) = 23 "A question for @Inomniacal Fan -- do you have a favorite tile set? I'm sold on trying this and I'm going to download the best looking graphics set that I can find but I'm wondering if you prefer a graphical overlay or if you're one of the folks who play this with only ASCII characters."
9. Zoo Tycoon (Tetsujin) = 22 "I thought I'd played this but it looks like I played a different "Build Your Own Zoo" style of game that I can no longer remember the name of. Regardless, I love animals and I love economic simulation games which let me build stuff so this is right in my wheel house."
10. Red Dead Redemption II (Insomniac) = 21 "I guess I could always play this like I played WoW -- ignore the actual story missions and just enjoy riding a horse around in a visually stunning setting, imagining my own stories."
11. Factorio: Space Age (Insomniac) = 20 "It looks like games that I've enjoyed playing in the past and the gadgdet-y nature of systems feeding into systems is enough of a hook to grab my interest."
12. Metroid Dread (Tetsujin) = 19 "So apparently updated graphics is enough for me to rank a modern reboot of a Metroid game 12 spots higher than I ranked the SNES version in Lowenherz' list. This means I'm not a hipster, right?"
13. World of Warcraft (Insomniac) = 18 "I showed this draft to my brother and this was his response... The guy with WoW on the list has it 6th? How can anyone who plays it not have it number 1? It is THE never-ending game. He then sent me his 15 game list which had World of Warcraft at #1 and Diablo II: Resurrected at #2."
14. The Legend of Zelda: the Wind Waker (Insomniac) = 17 "I'm approaching these Zelda games as a total outsider, but for me this is where Zelda really began to differentiate itself as a series worth paying attention to. The early NES/SNES/Gameboy games clearly have a lot of fans here and the N64 games were hugely popular in their day but most of them don't merit much more than a shrug from me. This one looks distinctive and different in a way that I can clearly point to and say "okay, that's a Zelda game -- I'd like to try that".
15. Super Mario Odyssey (Tetsujin) = 16 "The closest game to Mario 64 in this draft so I wanted to rank it higher. The opening level looks awesome but then I saw a huge list of collectibles and some retro 2D platformer sections and multiple in-game currencies and a shop for buying new outfits and Mario Party style mini-games by the truckload and after a certain point I started to feel nauseated. Rarely have I felt so attracted and repulsed by the same game."
16. Baldur's Gate 3 (Insomniac) = 15 "This one sank a bit since my last ranking. I mostly had nitpicks about the graphics lacking realistic shadows last time around but as I watched a longer playthrough I just wasn't feeling any of this. Which more or less aligns with my thoughts about Baldur's Gate 1 and 2."
17. Sid Meier's Civilization IV (Insomniac) = 14 "Now that I know Dwarf Fortress exists, this feels slightly obsolete. And the further afield I've gotten in my historical research, the harder it is for me to look past the Civ series' somewhat ham-fisted treatment of human development. As an alternative, there's a Civ style board game called Bios: Origins 2nd Edition which is not without it's own flaws (and you really need to concentrate to learn all of the iconography) but I like how it places a greater focus on the role that ideas and language play in guiding civilizations. Lest anyone thinks I'm trying to 'nerd-shame' by not liking fantasy settings, I play board games like this for fun so I'm in the same cast iron balloon -- just with different furniture."
18. Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor (Insomniac) = 13 "Someone should make a sequel to this game where you play as Treebeard. Granted the Entmoot levels might get a little boring after a few weeks but tearing up Isengard alongside all your Ent buddies would make up for it."
19. Rampage World Tour (Tetsujin) = 12 "Bonus points for doubling up on rampaging gorillas with your list. I believe with this and Donkey Kong Bananza you win this category handily. Actual gorillas aren't nearly as rampage-y as their fictional counterparts, but just thinking about gorillas makes me smile so I'll let that slide. Orangutans are a clear #1 in my great ape rankings since I think they might be a better hang, but gorillas are not far behind at #2."
20. Tribes 2 (Insomniac) = 11 "After our discussion in the first round, this has come up in the rankings. Which might be slightly unfair to Tetsujin who did not have the same opportunity to plead his case for any of his choices after I savaged them, but having a first round bye is not always an advantage in the pro leagues either."
21. Jak 3 (Tetsujin) = 10 "There's a visual flair here that I like but not a whole lot else for me to distinguish this from a crowded field of similar 3D platformers."
22. Satisfactory (Insomniac) = 9 "I can see why this would be fun and I've got similar types of games ranked much higher. I also get that there's a strong vein of satire running through this dystopian daydream of environmental abuse -- still not something I'm eager to play."
23. Donkey Kong Bananza (Tetsujin) = 8 "This ranking is mostly for the pun in the title. I was prepared to rank this just after Metroid Dread because I have a soft spot for Kong as a character but then I watched a playthrough and I really do not like the look of this game. I'm sure it's fun to play but woah did these designers miss me with this graphical approach."
24. Pokémon [Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald Version] (Tetsujin) = 7 "I rate Pokemon games about the same as how I rate ice cream with nuts in it: It's still ice cream so I'm going to eat it, but I'll look about for pretty much any other flavor first."
25. Oregon Trail (Tetsujin) = 6 "I enjoyed playing this back in elementary school. I played PC games in class mostly in 5th grade when I got my work done early and my teacher didn't want me to get bored. There was also a game where you played as a fish (spoiler alert -- prepare to get hooked and die!) and another game where you played as an escaped slave. You die a lot in that one too."
26. Crusader Kings II (Insomniac) = 5 "I doubt I would come close to finishing a play through, but I'd at least kick the wheels on this."
27. Dr. Mario (Tetsujin) = 4 "I can't decide if I would rather play this or Tetris. In my case, that's not a compliment"
28. Spider-Man [2000] (Tetsujin) = 3 "For 20 years friends have been telling me that I need to play some Spiderman game or another and for 20 years I have managed to avoid them."
29. NFL Blitz (Insomniac) = 2 "Football season is almost here! I guess this ranking partially reflects my level of enthusiasm for the Niners / Trojans chances of not disappointing me this year."
30. Madden NFL 08 (Tetsujin) = 1 "This game probably deserves better. It looks like a pretty good simulation style sports game, but as I mentioned in the last round I don't usually enjoy playing football video games. That probably has something to do with me not watching football hardly at all until I was in my mid 20s."

TETSUJIN = 221 | INSOMNIACAL FAN = 244

 

[Warhawk]

I actually think the error was in not specifying the tiebreaker rules beforehand. It seems like if we change the rules mid-draft it's reasonable to seek consensus.

To be fair, previous drafts often used the mini-playoff format. Since there was no established rule, no rules were being "changed". It seems like the coin flip was being insisted upon by you alone.

I definitely wanted to see the mini-playoff. You and Tetsujin were right next to each other in overall rankings. I had your list rated higher and with a good paring down of your selections I think you would have won.

Either way, it's done. Congrats, Tetsujin!

 

[Tetsujin]

here was my Tiebreaker top five as submitted to Capt. for those who were interested.
1-Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
2- Diablo II
3- Super Mario Odyssey
4- Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
5- Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald

Strategically left Donkey Kong Bananza off this list because I’m pretty sure I’m the only one who’s played it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That's an intriguing ranking system: you've got four of Tetsujin's games in your Top 5, and 7 of his games in your Bottom 10?

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Thread 'Video Game Playoffs - Round 1 Tiebreaker!!'

Nov 9, 2008

Both participants have sent me their choice, so, which will it be?

Note: This will only be open for 24 hours, so vote now!

• SacKings7
• Replies: 18
• Forum: Lounge

I guess I have to say I’m surprised and especially confused by the rejection of the active strategy in the established OT rules in favor of leaving it to total chance with a coin flip. IF seems to have an ingrained and specific distaste for overtime in sports, which I think is is valid and intriguing (NFL overtime rules suck), and that appears to be triggering this response. If I’m understanding correctly, IF see’s the latter coin flip option as more fair than anything that changes the original game rules to something different as a way to determine the winner.

Whereas I think moving on with a coin flip is especially hollow, while there is more engagement, interest and I suppose satisfaction in earning the spot through a mini game competition.

I'm happy to open discussion on this, now that this isn't actually distracting or delaying the rest of the draft.

I think the tiebreaker rules in sports are a balance between increasing tension in a close match (a good thing!) with the constraints of the environment in which sports are played (if you play an extra game of NFL, it is a not insignificant increase in the chance of life altering injury for every player.) I think adding more periods to a basketball game is good. I think Tennis benefits from a tiebreaker system with more sudden-deathiness than just adding extra sets (Mahut-Isner was a disaster in my humble opinion.)

In contrast, I don't think anyone's truly interested in multiple rounds of OT of a round of desert island drafts. So if your tiebreaker can end in a tie, what are we even doing really? We could just pick a better method to start with.

I agree with this statement "IF see’s the latter coin flip option as more fair than anything that changes the original game rules to something different as a way to determine the winner." If you're going to need to add arbitrary rules to a game after it's already in play (it's not all on @Capt. Factorial, it's everyone's mistake that we didn't spot tiebreakers as a concern in the rules post.) then I think a good guideline is to do the simplest thing to resolve the issue; otherwise games trend towards Calvinball.
---
As for the specifics of the re-vote with a subset style of tiebreaker; I have a list of objections to that.

First of all, the premise is just silly. All the strategy you listed above requires voters to roleplay having a head-injury with retrograde amnesia. Everybody knows what they're actually voting for, the minigame is moonshine. The re-vote itself is more a measure of who has more time and interest in voting, as votes were trickling in through the whole voting window. Or maybe someone had their opinion swayed by something outside the list of games, which is kind of a bummer for the whole process.

If we take the minigame in good faith ; from a self-interested point of view, I'll admit I think Tetsujin's top 5 would probably be more competitive than mine. I went for a variety of genres in my list, because it's my island, and I like a lot of different genres. Picking a top 5 makes it about an attempt to appeal to the crowd. For instance, I wouldn't feel good about putting Civ 4 in my top 5 to try and consolidate the @Mr. S£im Citrus vote, because it wouldn't be in my top 5. So the redraft changes the tone from "I'm sharing my gaming taste" to "I'm trying to appeal to your gaming taste." That's a bummer for me as well

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

To be fair, previous drafts often used the mini-playoff format. Since there was no established rule, no rules were being "changed". It seems like the coin flip was being insisted upon by you alone.

Yeah, well, I didn't participate in those other drafts, so I didn't have that implicit expectation.

Sometimes you gotta update your traditions when you become more inclusive, and I feel like I had a reasonable request. If there was an objection to the random choice, I would have forfeited instead of doing the mini-draft

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

here was my Tiebreaker top five as submitted to Capt. for those who were interested.
1-Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
2- Diablo II
3- Super Mario Odyssey
4- Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
5- Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald

Strategically left Donkey Kong Bananza off this list because I’m pretty sure I’m the only one who’s played it.

I completely agree with those games as a top 5, though I'm intrigued by Bananza. From what I hear, it's a platformer where if you get frustrated with the level you can destroy it. (I don't like platformers much these days)

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I waited until the tie-breaker was resolved so as not to be a distraction, but this was how I scored this one...

1. Dwarf Fortress (Insomniac) = 23 "A question for @Inomniacal Fan -- do you have a favorite tile set? I'm sold on trying this and I'm going to download the best looking graphics set that I can find but I'm wondering if you prefer a graphical overlay or if you're one of the folks who play this with only ASCII characters."

Hey, in 2010 it was punk rock to play an ascii game!

I haven't actually played a lot recently, but when I have, the steam default seems fine.

 

[Löwenherz]

otherwise games trend towards Calvinball.

C&H! My eyes widened in glee as I thought how rad that would be. I’m clearly maladjusted.

The first of all the premise is just silly. All the strategy you listed above requires voters to roleplay having a head-injury with retrograde amnesia. Everybody knows what they're actually voting for, the minigame is moonshine.

I mean, it worked last time, presumably sans mass TBIs.

The re-vote itself is more a measure of who has more time and interest in voting, as votes were trickling in through the whole voting window. Or maybe someone had their opinion swayed by something outside the list of games, which is kind of a bummer for the whole process.

Kinda just an overall issue with democracy in general: the worst form of government except all the others.

If we take the minigame in good faith ; from a self-interested point of view, I'll admit I think Tetsujin's top 5 would probably be more competitive than mine. I went for a variety of genres in my list, because it's my island, and I like a lot of different genres. Picking a top 5 makes it about an attempt to appeal to the crowd. For instance, I wouldn't feel good about putting Civ 4 in my top 5 to try and consolidate the @Mr. S£im Citrus vote, because it wouldn't be in my top 5. So the redraft changes the tone from "I'm sharing my gaming taste" to "I'm trying to appeal to your gaming taste." That's a bummer for me as well

Purely out of curiosity, what would be your 5 choices if you had to take on Tetsujin?

 

[hrdboild]

That's an intriguing ranking system: you've got four of Tetsujin's games in your Top 5, and 7 of his games in your Bottom 10?

Seems that way... I noticed the heavily Tetsujin weighted top 5 but didn't pay as much attention to the bottom 10. Which really just shows that the strength of Insomniacal Fan's list in my eyes was the overall consistency of games he drafted that I'm intrigued by enough to want to try them. And we just have more similar taste in games overall so it makes sense I would pick that desert island to visit first.

I did consider alternative means of scoring as this felt like it might have revealed a flaw in my scoring methodology. My first idea was dropping the 5 lowest ranked games from each list. Another was more heavily weighting the top 5. But ultimately I just decided the most impartial way to do it was to stick with what I'd been doing. I will probably decide my votes in some other way for the next couple of rounds though because these are exhausting and I've already ranked every game in the draft now.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I lowkey liked your concept, but I haven't played enough of everybody's respective lists to execute it. Frankly, only two participants had more than four games on their entire lists that I've played.

 

[Löwenherz]

1. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (Tetsujin) = 30 "I've got the two recent Zelda games pretty much tied here for #1 because I'd really like to play these if I ever get a chance to. Don't have much else to say about them. The stylized look of the graphics makes me slightly jealous of the Nintendo people for a change."
2. The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom (Tetsujin) = 29 "See above. Also, the look of these games feels at least partly inspired by the three games that Fumito Ueda was lead designer on for Sony: Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, and The Last Guardian. And I loved the look of those games, if not always the gameplay."

Shadow of the Colossus was a huge influence on Breath of the Wild. In fact, I’d be willing to bet it was THE influence of BotW outside of the Zelda franchise itself, particularly the original NES Zelda.

It’s a lot more populated with traditional Zelda lore, enemies, people, structures, and like just things in general, but Hyrule is very much a barren post-apocalyptic waste in the spirit of the Forbidden Lands, which are traversed through running, horseback riding, and climbing (I guess Wander can technically “glide” too by hanging onto hawks, so I’ll count it). The Divine beasts are Zelda versions of the Colossi, made into mini-dungeons. You’re largely meant to create your own stories of the land based on the hollowed out husks of civilization you find in both games.

I also really liked, but didn’t love Shadow of the Colossus - it being the last game I couch co-oped from beginning to end with my best friend. And while I love the unsolvable mysterious angle, in BotW at least, I wanted more winding caves and ornate dungeons to explore, and exciting equipment to find as a reward for taking the countless roads less traveled.

That is not at all the point of Shadow of the Colossus, but it’s the reason Miyamoto created Zelda in the first place.

1. Metroid Dread (Tetsujin) = 19 "So apparently updated graphics is enough for me to rank a modern reboot of a Metroid game 12 spots higher than I ranked the SNES version in Lowenherz' list. This means I'm not a hipster, right?"
2. The Legend of Zelda: the Wind Waker (Insomniac) = 17 "I'm approaching these Zelda games as a total outsider, but for me this is where Zelda really began to differentiate itself as a series worth paying attention to. The early NES/SNES/Gameboy games clearly have a lot of fans here and the N64 games were hugely popular in their day but most of them don't merit much more than a shrug from me. This one looks distinctive and different in a way that I can clearly point to and say "okay, that's a Zelda game -- I'd like to try that".

OK Zoomer.
(I know that you’re a millennial. You’re maybe 5 years younger than me).

First, I think the games of the N64, GameBoy, and NES don’t entirely hold up as well due to their outdated hardware. While there are certainly gems and verified classics on all three, I understand the “learning curve” for later generations to give games on those systems a break for their graphics and sometimes rickety, of-its-time gameplay.

The SNES however, I think, transcends its era. And sure that might be my nostalgia talking, but when modern games, indie and triple A alike, go retro, the majority of the time they mimic the SNES (and Genesis I guess) 16-bit graphics and not simply as nostalgia-bait. From the GameBoy Advanced to the Switch, there has been a hungry and accepting market made-up of all generations of gamers for 16-bit throwback graphics and gameplay. Meanwhile 8-bit NES and blocky polygon N64 retro titles tend to be more niche and nostalgia-centric. Graphic and gameplay-wise, for every Shovel Knight and A Hat in Time, there are about a dozen Stardew Valley and Sea of Stars.

All that is merely to set-up that I think both Super Metroid and Zelda: A Link to the Past would be fantastic starting points for you to give the older entries in these classic franchises a try.

As a reminder, I did not play Super Metroid until I was in my 30s, it had already been oversold to me as amazing, I’d disliked the NES and GameBoy Metroids, and only after I had already played Symphony of the Night.

If Wind Waker and Metroid Dread are interesting to you, their SNES counterparts could surprise you.

1. Sid Meier's Civilization IV (Insomniac) = 14 "Now that I know Dwarf Fortress exists, this feels slightly obsolete. And the further afield I've gotten in my historical research, the harder it is for me to look past the Civ series' somewhat ham-fisted treatment of human development. As an alternative, there's a Civ style board game called Bios: Origins 2nd Edition which is not without it's own flaws (and you really need to concentrate to learn all of the iconography) but I like how it places a greater focus on the role that ideas and language play in guiding civilizations. Lest anyone thinks I'm trying to 'nerd-shame' by not liking fantasy settings, I play board games like this for fun so I'm in the same cast iron balloon -- just with different furniture."

My dream Civ game has a zoom in feature where every city is handcrafted in a SimCity 2000 style, you develop and maybe even design inventions, wonders, and units that are entirely unique to your civilization and culture, the tech tree continues maybe a full millennia past modern day into imaginative future techs and leads to exploring, colonizing, and developing moons and other planets, you have to keep replacing leaders for your nation in whatever style of government you choose similar to Crusader Kings, there is much more involved diplomacy, espionage, and trade including colonization and imperialism, you have more direct control of your nations culture and philosophies so if I want to create tyrannically theocratic nation of Zen Fascists Samurai I can do that, and there is a scenario where I get to roleplay as the ID4 aliens with the goal of wiping out every city and filthy human on the miserable, backwater planet.

I’d also want to design my own flag. As we know you can’t have a country without a flag. Those are the rules.

But until that game that is way too labor intensive to make and specifically detailed to appeal to a mass audience hits the market, the accessibility and chill “just one more turn” gameplay of Civilization (II specifically. IV works too) is golden.

1. Rampage World Tour (Tetsujin) = 12 "Bonus points for doubling up on rampaging gorillas with your list. I believe with this and Donkey Kong Bananza you win this category handily. Actual gorillas aren't nearly as rampage-y as their fictional counterparts, but just thinking about gorillas makes me smile so I'll let that slide. Orangutans are a clear #1 in my great ape rankings since I think they might be a better hang, but gorillas are not far behind at #2."

This went in a much different direction than I expected in a discussion about Ranpage.

1. NFL Blitz (Insomniac) = 2 "Football season is almost here! I guess this ranking partially reflects my level of enthusiasm for the Niners / Trojans chances of not disappointing me this year."

Be faithful. This year, the Super Bowl is a home game.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

While I guess I can respect IF's position it was starting to give me Mr. Pink vibes. He had my vote and that probably wasn't changing based on the lists but the strangeness of the objection had me thinkin aww heck, I could just change my vote and it would be over lol. The Top-5 format seemed to be settled precedent but I suppose I can get the objections. In which case for future drafts two options could be - wrasslin' tournament style - a draw means both are out and their next scheduled opponent gets a bye. If the final I guess it would need some kind of OT, which would be other option: Sudden Death - the next person to get a single vote wins.

But I do hope for the rest of the way we do Top-5.

 

[Padrino]

If we take the minigame in good faith ; from a self-interested point of view, I'll admit I think Tetsujin's top 5 would probably be more competitive than mine. I went for a variety of genres in my list, because it's my island, and I like a lot of different genres. Picking a top 5 makes it about an attempt to appeal to the crowd. For instance, I wouldn't feel good about putting Civ 4 in my top 5 to try and consolidate the @Mr. S£im Citrus vote, because it wouldn't be in my top 5. So the redraft changes the tone from "I'm sharing my gaming taste" to "I'm trying to appeal to your gaming taste." That's a bummer for me as well

Maybe that's a good thing, though? The initial draft was about your gaming taste, but the playoff voting is kind of supposed to be about the gaming tastes of others, and a top-5 tiebreaker really distills a list down to the most prized elements within it. I voted for Tetsu originally, but I may very well have voted for your top-5 in a tiebreaker. A top-15 with Baldur's Gate III and Red Dead Redemption 2 is a stronger list for their presence, yet there remains a lot to consider when the list contains 13 other games. But a top-5 that might feature those two games suddenly becomes potent, because there's much less to consider alongside those two games.